I want to point out a problem I have in the RPG industry - it's the meaning of "bang for buck" which means how many pages of content you will get for $. The more content apparently means it's better. And if a supplement has low page count, it should cost less. Hate it.
And when asked what is the best adventure-, campaign-, setting supplement - people will name big heavy tomes like "Masks of Nyarlathotep", "Eternal Lies", "Mythic Britain", "A Red & Pleasant Land", "Dark Albion", "Guide to Glorantha" ... to name a few. Don't get me wrong - these really are amazing works, but unfortunately to me personally they fail to be gaming products. I cannot afford to be full time gamer/GM.
I like how some authors in the industry seem to get it - Robert Schwalb with his "Shadow of the Demon Lord" adventures for example. 3-5 pages, go, play.
Also John Wick told in a podcast, that one thing he learned when he studied professional writing and reading authors of classic literature was to be able to express the maximum amount of meaning with the least word count. I think this aspect is one true craftsman of a writer. And here is the conflict of interests - good writing is less words, but profitable writing is more (meaningless) words.
So this is discussion topic of it's own, but what I want to ask is some of your recommendations that qualify for the "bang for page count" criteria. The most interesting would be to find a 10 page sandbox scenarios, but anything else is fine too.
This could be used as system-neutral supplement:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ypjtlHfcwqrU_-x4b7o0e8tZ_dN2TiNLUu48MLAw7Y/edit?hl=en&forcehl=1#heading=h.t8tfotiv4mt1
Quote from: jux;897482And here is the conflict of interests - good writing is less words, but profitable writing is more (meaningless) words.
It's not as simple, at least not always, not for all. ;)
See, words might be treated like archives containing packed computer data. To "unpack" it, one needs to own relevant extracting software. And in case of words, squeeze the intended content out highly condensed extract. This isn't as easy as one thinks, not everyone possess qualities required to extract said content, and countless discussions regarding some rules' interpretation, even in massive products, full of sourcebooks and erratas seem to at least partially support my claim.
Let me get you an example (I'm sure I don't need to, but I want to, heh): there's this little gem called
Everyone is John, considered one of best "alternative" slash "indie" mini quasi-RPG by a few important RPG societies. It's short, it's easy, it takes one page at most. Yet, to this day I meet people who play it
differently - some are sure it's the GM who describes what happens to John, according to leading Voice's choices, some assume the leading Voice does that. Some think it's the GM who rolls dice, some, that it's leading Voice's task.
Now stretch that to 100+ pages worth of a game.
Point is: it might go both ways. Less might be better, less might be wrong. Beautiful yet scarce words might not explain things as good as certainly less masterful sentences, but covering in length relevant topic.
As for Wick himself and his writing, I like his
Wilderness of Mirrors mini-game very much. But it's his "Play Dirty" books where he allows himself to let loose his imagination and produce more words, where he does shine, imho. ;)
QuoteSo this is discussion topic of it's own, but what I want to ask is some of your recommendations that qualify for the "bang for page count" criteria. The most interesting would be to find a 10 page sandbox scenarios, but anything else is fine too.
Tiny-mini-little games, yes?
Well, if so, then in addition to Wilderness of Mirrors, and Everyone is John, I'd add Risus (of course), my favorite tiny OSR, one that I value more than D&D & PFRPG combined Old School Hack (https://www.oldschoolhack.me/), The Quiet Year (http://buriedwithoutceremony.com/the-quiet-year/), FU RPG (http://perilplanet.com/book/fu/), Little Towns and... Heh, .tumblr made Welcome to Night Vale.
Does Children of Fire (http://www.mimgames.com/cof/) qualify?
The only ROI / Bang for the Buck that I care about is Hours of Actual Play that I get from the product.
Page count can go fuck itself.
I am actually not interested in complete games, but game supplements that are very efficient. Minimal prep and reading amount required to get the game going. System neutral would be best, but I have no problems using d20 supplement with my system of choice.
Quote from: Spinachcat;897487The only ROI / Bang for the Buck that I care about is Hours of Actual Play that I get from the product.
Page count can go fuck itself.
Now name one!
Quote from: jux;897482I want to point out a problem I have in the RPG industry - it's the meaning of "bang for buck" which means how many pages of content you will get for $. The more content apparently means it's better. And if a supplement has low page count, it should cost less. Hate it.
I think even in the colloquial sense there a measure of utility implied in "more bang for the buck.". It not just about price vs. page count. It more like
You get more bang! for your buck if there is more utility in less pages for a lower price.
This is because in addition to everything else RPG writing is a form of technical writing with the objective of conveying a useful piece of technical information to another person. In this cause technical information that is useful for playing in a RPG campaign as a player or referee.
So less page count is more than OK if the utility is there for the right price.
However the full evaluation would have to be something like this.
for Product A vs. Product B. Do I get more bang for the buck because of
Utility
Page Count
Price
Art & Layout
The writing as a piece of fiction.
Physical qualities if it a book.
Editing & Errata.
All of the above are factor in my experience effects a gamer perception of the value of a product.
Just got 'Warriors of the Red Planet' (Krombach & Denmark) in the post today - A5 format, slim, incredibly good bang-for-page count. Every page crammed with cool stuff.
Dyson's Delves I & II also notably dense with cool stuff - maps & keyed dungeons.
"Mini Six" by AntiPaladin Games. The whole book is basically 35 pages, (36 with the OGL) and the rules are only about 17 pages of that if you include the optional stuff and DM advice. It has 5 scenarios in different settings, one is a star wars knock off. It came to mind quickly as a "bang for your buck" low page count game.
http://www.antipaladingames.com/p/mini-six.html
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/144558/Mini-Six-Bare-Bones-Edition
It's a "pay what you want" here.
I just noticed your post #5, this probably isn't what you're after with that in view, sorry, and you were probably already aware of it, but it does get the job done in a low page count. :)
I bought and read Quicksilver, a fantasy RPG using the Pocket Universe system... and that was rather pithy. Short and too the point but packing in a surprising amount of content... game system, setting, bestiary... even an index... in under 100 pages. No wasted space or game fiction.
The amount of play I'm going to get out of Mythic Britain is way more than a hundred lame 1-page adventures that aren't even complete. I can do outline crap all day long and while I'm asleep. Give me NPCs with details, maps, stuff that will save me actual time when I go to weave a campaign together. Then I don't care what it costs, if it's useful to me.
Page Count can go fuck it's mother in the asshole.
As long as the content is useful, page count -whether high or low- doesn't bother me.
Quote from: CRKrueger;897684The amount of play I'm going to get out of Mythic Britain is way more than a hundred lame 1-page adventures that aren't even complete. I can do outline crap all day long and while I'm asleep. Give me NPCs with details, maps, stuff that will save me actual time when I go to weave a campaign together. Then I don't care what it costs, if it's useful to me.
This. Game-table readiness is increasingly what I look for in anything that isn't a core rulebook.
There certainly will be and should be, a difference in page count in regards to the OPs example.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the materials & authors referenced are setting books. While the one preferred is an adventure. This is comparing apples to oranges.
If a setting book includes adventures might be an interesting if the author created a setting book with the adventures and a separate product of just adventures. Though this would depending on how much the adventure hook is woven with the setting.
One thing RPG's could learn is about technical writing, it's a thing, some people even make careers of it. I see a lot of documents with poor utility, such as I have just had to make a price list from Mongoose Traveller's Central Supply Catalogue, so why wasn't this done before? It's Mongoose, who are from sources close to the fire, the masters of half-assed work. Bang for buck has been 13Mann's Hephaestus, free on DTRPG, which then I mixed liberally with SCP entries, sort of an alien research ship.
Quote from: jux;897493Now name one!
Traveller 1e (the LBBs)
Gamma World 1e
Quote from: jux;897482So this is discussion topic of it's own, but what I want to ask is some of your recommendations that qualify for the "bang for page count" criteria.
Tiny RPGs for pick-up play are easy enough to find; the one I keep on hand is World of Dungeons (http://www.onesevendesign.com/dw/world_of_dungeons_1979.pdf) (printer-friendly version (http://www.onesevendesign.com/dw/world_of_dungeons_1979_bw.pdf)).
Brendan S' Wonder & Wickedness (http://www.necropraxis.com/tag/wonder-wickedness/) is a slim volume that's got excellent per-page value - it's a book of spells for use with a vancian system, organized by school. There's only a few in each school, but none of them have a spell level - instead, the book has spell power (or at least duration) increase with caster level. The school-specific 'failed casting' tables are also great.
Originally inspired by the one-page dungeon contest (https://www.onepagedungeon.info/) (which just wrapped up submissions for 2016), I regularly put out two-page adventures (http://blog.trilemma.com/search/label/adventure) based around isometric maps:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/282131/One%20Page%20Dungeons/17-House-of-the-Tyrant-thumb.png) (http://blog.trilemma.com/search/label/adventure)
Quote from: Spinachcat;897811Traveller 1e (the LBBs)
Gamma World 1e
2e GW too. Very to the point overall. Theres like what less than a page of background. The rest is rules, mutations, gear and monsters. Same for Star Frontiers and Knight Hawks or even AD&D or BX. Very little to no story. All rules and stuff.
Quote from: jux;897493Now name one!
ICE's Robin Hood Campaign Sourcebook
Traveller, Classic Traveller, The Traveller Book
Mongoose Traveller, MgT 1e Core Rulebook
d6 WEG Star Wars, The Star Wars Introductory Adventure Game
Star Wars RPG, Revised and Expanded
Quote from: jux;897482So this is discussion topic of it's own, but what I want to ask is some of your recommendations that qualify for the "bang for page count" criteria. The most interesting would be to find a 10 page sandbox scenarios, but anything else is fine too.
It really depends on what you want. To me, Eternal Lies is an ideal bang-for-buck adventure -- it's a classic, gigantic, world-spanning Mythos adventure that is probably close to a half year or year's worth of play, for something like $50. One person who's run it all the way through did so in 22 sessions. That's a little over $2 per session. That's a really solid amount of value.
With that said, if you're looking for cheaper stuff when it comes to initial outlay, you have 40 years of D&D adventures online that can be purchased for a song at DriveThru or wherever, and those are usually good for a few nights play, at least.
"Bang per page" and page count aren't actually related. The best "bang per page" value in any RPG product I own is Ptolus... It's also 650+ pages.
With that being said, if you want maximum play value packed into a minimum number of pages I'd take a peek at Technoir: It has innovative plot map mechanics that allow it to present settings in 16 half-pages that can be almost endlessly recombined with no additional prep for hundreds of hours of game play.
You might also want to check out the Instant Adventures from Monte Cook Games. (They've published a set for Numenera and a set for The Strange.) 4 pages per scenario, designed to be picked up and played within 5 minutes.
Quote from: jux;897482I want to point out a problem I have in the RPG industry - it's the meaning of "bang for buck" which means how many pages of content you will get for $. The more content apparently means it's better. And if a supplement has low page count, it should cost less. Hate it.
And when asked what is the best adventure-, campaign-, setting supplement - people will name big heavy tomes like "Masks of Nyarlathotep", "Eternal Lies", "Mythic Britain", "A Red & Pleasant Land", "Dark Albion", "Guide to Glorantha" ... to name a few. Don't get me wrong - these really are amazing works, but unfortunately to me personally they fail to be gaming products. I cannot afford to be full time gamer/GM.
I like how some authors in the industry seem to get it - Robert Schwalb with his "Shadow of the Demon Lord" adventures for example. 3-5 pages, go, play.
Also John Wick told in a podcast, that one thing he learned when he studied professional writing and reading authors of classic literature was to be able to express the maximum amount of meaning with the least word count. I think this aspect is one true craftsman of a writer. And here is the conflict of interests - good writing is less words, but profitable writing is more (meaningless) words.
So this is discussion topic of it's own, but what I want to ask is some of your recommendations that qualify for the "bang for page count" criteria. The most interesting would be to find a 10 page sandbox scenarios, but anything else is fine too.
Well, it's natural that if you spend more time writing a 250 page book, it's going to be priced higher. Of course, strategically, the best dollar value per page count is not going to be in selling a 250 page book for $40 (so 16 cents a page), but in selling a 20 page book for $15 (75 cents a page). I just can't usually bring myself to write books that short; it's actually a tough art form in some ways, to do it right.
Anyways, campaign books like Dark Albion, and shorter adventures or adventure scenarios, fulfill two different purposes. Dark Albion can be something you use to run one or two sessions with, but it only becomes worth the 'bang for the buck' if you are running a longer campaign with it. If you want material for a longer campaign, that's what you want to get. But if you need something for two or three sessions, you probably would be better off getting a tight but well-written adventure or mini-campaign scenario.
Quote from: RPGPundit;898873Dark Albion can be something you use to run one or two sessions with, but it only becomes worth the 'bang for the buck' if you are running a longer campaign with it. If you want material for a longer campaign, that's what you want to get. But if you need something for two or three sessions, you probably would be better off getting a tight but well-written adventure or mini-campaign scenario.
Yep, it is that simple.
However, I wish there was a quick-start scenarios for these big setting books. For example, when someone wants to run a first session in Dark Albion, one has to do a lot of reading, studying, preparing and also theres a lot to teach to other players. It would be awesome, if first 10 pages are all you need, to play 3 scenarios. Usually it's weeks of preparation to get a game going.
Quote from: jux;898931Yep, it is that simple.
However, I wish there was a quick-start scenarios for these big setting books. For example, when someone wants to run a first session in Dark Albion, one has to do a lot of reading, studying, preparing and also theres a lot to teach to other players. It would be awesome, if first 10 pages are all you need, to play 3 scenarios. Usually it's weeks of preparation to get a game going.
Well, the module The Ghost of Jack Cade on London bridge, written by Dominique Crouzet, kind of fulfills that function. It's also something that could be used in any OSR game (it would fit very nicely as an LotFP-type module, for example, or like the type of stuff Pete Spahn writes). It's a truly great entry-level adventure.
Quote from: jux;897482So this is discussion topic of it's own, but what I want to ask is some of your recommendations that qualify for the "bang for page count" criteria. The most interesting would be to find a 10 page sandbox scenarios, but anything else is fine too.
S. John Ross's
Uresia is a gorgeous piece of writing -- gently funny, subtle, evocative, melancholy. And short. Well, midsized. (The revised edition, which I haven't read, has a much-increased wordcount; I absolutely trust Ross to make proper use of it. But the d20 edition is a great achievement all on its own.)
Ken Hite packs more interesting ideas into a paragraph of his columns than most RPG writers can manage in a chapter. The bit of 'game fiction' that kicks off his
Day After Ragnarok supplement started life as a 'Suppressed Transmission' column in
Pyramid, and is a perfect self-contained setpiece; in 3-4 pages it lays out a whole world. My favourite RPG supplement fiction, easily. Hite does that regularly for
Fenix magazine now; near as I can tell, all his stuff for them made their 'Best of Fenix' anthologies. If you can put your hands on the 'Transmission' archives, do so; Hite's 'Clio's Nightmares' columns and occult-Shakespeare glosses are really something. 'Six Flags Over Roswell' is a classic as well, and for good reason.
The
NOD hexcrawls are excellent and compact.
The 4th edition supplement
Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale is unusually dense with flavour -- it's generally regarded as a highwater mark for 4e-era D&D.