As far as mortal PC's go, I think having an individual PC able to engage a low level evil outsider one on one, or a group of PC's able to engage a higher level evil outsider one on one; is where my ability to entertain the fantastical drops off.  That's pretty high level stuff right there, and the pinnacle of what I see mortals being able to handle in an encounter.  Of course, opinions may vary on this....

Where would you draw the line, if at all?

I don't have a preference on the level itself, as long as it scales to what it says it does.  I can always ignore the levels that sit in a range that I'm not interested in (or more often, not interested in for that campaign).

As a vague statement, I'm in that grey area where "D&D as fantasy superheroes" doesn't bother me, but I prefer to edge closer to the lower end of the fantasy superheroes scale, so that it can overlap from time to time with something more mundane to heroic.

A good power level is when the system is an interesting game but not yet bogged down in crunch.

A proper narrative could be made for any power level as far as I'm concerned, but I'm willing to admit that you cross genres at some point. I just like those other genres.

I cap my OD&D at 10th.

6th level spells (and beyond) exist, but are rare, wondrous, difficult and dangerous.

If we're talking D&D - the natural progression of the game will dictate that around 10th... and only grow more ridiculous post 10th.

If you're talking about nonD&D - my stipulation is I want "low-level" monsters/NPC's to always pose some kind of threat. D&D isn't really designed for that implicitly these days. Early editions 1e/2e do that just fine. Later editions render it a chore to make it mechanically meaningful.

It's one of the reasons I don't run 5e anymore.

I want my systems to handle from this: [ATTACH=CONFIG]3200[/ATTACH]

to players doing this

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3201[/ATTACH]


with the most minimal of mechanical fiddling possible. Somewhere between these poles 5e loses coherence mechanically to do this due to its adherence to sacred cows more than by intention on the part of actual good design.

Good question.

In D&D it used to be that your PCs tended to level out either right out the gate, or around level 10. But have played well past that.

Sometimes it is dependant on the campaign. Last play through we did of Tyrrany of Dragons the PCs all ended the tale around level 16. But alot of the action took place between levels 6-10. Whereas in another campaign its been going rather slow and the PCs are only recently hitting level 12. But we spent alot of time at level 5-8 puttering around getting alot of stuff done but not actually stuff that garnered alot of EXP. Totally worth it though. What the players do can impact level progress alot.

Also there is the matter of campaign longevity. Shorter campaigns tend to see the PCs rarely puch through into the teens of levels. Whereas sobestantially longer ones are more likely to see the PCs into the teens levels.

I like pretty high power stuff.

I didn't much like how in 1e the PCs could slaughter droves of gods and demon lords. I like 4e where taking down one demon lord is a tough prospect for a high level party, or 5e where a tough lucky Epic PC can take on a demigod or ancient dragon.

Quote from: S'mon;1076237I like pretty high power stuff.

I didn't much like how in 1e the PCs could slaughter droves of gods and demon lords. I like 4e where taking down one demon lord is a tough prospect for a high level party, or 5e where a tough lucky Epic PC can take on a demigod or ancient dragon.

The limitation in my question, was mortal PC's.  I am not a big fan of PC's chasing immortality themselves, which was a big thing in early editions.  I like the goal of living a long life, and accomplishing great things; leaving the rest to the next generation of heroes.

Quote from: Razor 007;1076240The limitation in my question, was mortal PC's.  I am not a big fan of PC's chasing immortality themselves, which was a big thing in early editions.  I like the goal of living a long life, and accomplishing great things; leaving the rest to the next generation of heroes.

Yeah, me too. I preferred the 4e 'Legendary Sovereign' Epic Destiny to the Demigod or various demigod-level EDs.

I guess my preference is that mortal heroes top out at a Moorcockian level where they can go mano-a-mano with the Lords of Chaos, but are unlikely to actually beat them in a straight fight. Or Jacob wrestling Jehovah on the road, and Jehovah having to pull a dirty move to win. But He still wins.

In my own 5e game, the PC Hakeem duelled and defeated the demigod Kainos Warbringer, but the odds were well against him. For a typical 4-PC level 20 group it would have been a tough but winnable fight. That's a power level I'm comfy with. I'm very happy with 5e D&D's power plateau at level 20.

Greetings!

In my World of Thandor, I do not have level limits. The PC's can rise as high as they want. The World of Thandor is huge, with vast continents, ancient cities, and a host of villains and monsters that embrace whatever power-level may be necessary. Legions marching across the land; epic fleets sailing into great sea battles; monstrous giants laying siege to citadels; terrifying dragons bring disaster to whole areas; plagues sweep through the lands, killing millions of people. In this world, epic champions are always needed to rise to the challenge of evil.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

For D&D, I don't care for much past 9th level or so. Partly, I think this is from the rules getting increasingly fiddly and bloated for higher levels - tracking multiple feats, modifiers, and so forth. It's more an issue of rules bloat than power level, though power level can get tricky.

For example, I'm good with pulp campaigns with the likes of Flash Gordon or Tarzan who take on superhuman foes. But even then, there are limits to believability. One of the potential problems of D&D can be a fighter falling 200 feet onto hard rocks and get up fighting.

I like mid-level play because that's the top end of what most players can handle.  

The problem with high level play is that it requires more of both the player and the DM than the "sweet spot".  Kind of like how Algebra 1 is the "sweet spot" for math, for most people.

I don't mind high level play, but its intentionally swingy.  It's not going to be some cathartic, drawn-out and drama-filled experience like people imagine.  It's about using indirect means to get a leg up on other high level competition; such as divination, manoeuver, and infiltration.  Winning is getting there firstest with the mostest, and most importantly drawing first blood.  Yes, high level PCs die much more than mid-level PCs.  So long as the DM doesn't have a philosophical issue with easy raising this isn't a gameplay problem, usually.

But high level play almost purposely thwarts what DMs try to do with it, because they don't understand that only someone without agency would allow themselves to end up in a movie-like situation.

EOTB your description of high level play matches my experuence of 1e and 3e, but not 4e or 5e dnd. 4e especially does not give pcs the tools to avoid drama. 5e can a bit but much much less than 1e-3e.

Quote from: jhkim;1076254For D&D, I don't care for much past 9th level or so. Partly, I think this is from the rules getting increasingly fiddly and bloated for higher levels - tracking multiple feats, modifiers, and so forth. It's more an issue of rules bloat than power level, though power level can get tricky.

For example, I'm good with pulp campaigns with the likes of Flash Gordon or Tarzan who take on superhuman foes. But even then, there are limits to believability. One of the potential problems of D&D can be a fighter falling 200 feet onto hard rocks and get up fighting.

Pulp heroes wouldn't die from a fall - they would survive somehow. So 70 damage in 1e seems fine to me. For 4e and 5e the damage is out of wack with the pc durability so I prefer 1 point damage per foot fallen, enough to kill low level and squishy pcs.

Quote from: S'mon;1076300EOTB your description of high level play matches my experuence of 1e and 3e, but not 4e or 5e dnd. 4e especially does not give pcs the tools to avoid drama. 5e can a bit but much much less than 1e-3e.

Yeah, I've never played a version of D&D other than 1E AD&D, really.  Other than one-offs.  I should probably make a sig that anything I say is based on 1E and nothing else.