So in response to what some of the goons have been pre-slandering the upcoming Arrows of Indra RPG with, I've written this blog entry where I talk in detail about the PC races (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/771470008/item/), and (to the extent I'm qualified to comment on an editorial choice on the part of my publisher) the art choices for the AoI book.
I thought some of you might be interested, if only to learn a bit about the mythological ancestors of elves and dwarves...
RPGPundit
Why does anyone care what these troglodytes have to say. If they're hurting your business sit them down in front of a judge to explain their comments, that's what I'd do. I thoroughly enjoy suing people.
I think it should be obvious to viewers we were deliberatley aiming for an old school aethetic. As Pundit points out in his blog, some people like that style and others are less enthralled by it, but it does evoke a very clear oldschool vibe. I happen to love Fede's work on this (and I do want to clarify that he was paid someone suggested this was free art) and I think a strong effort was made to keep it both interesting and authentic. That said, the publisher, not the writer, takes responsibility for any shortcomings in art or presentation. If someone genuinely has an issue with the art, they ought to direct that concern at myself and Bedrock Games.
Also, those were just a couple of images. I believe when people see the finished book, with all the art, borders and layout design, they will be impressed. We are working with the layout guy now, and it is looking great.
Quote from: The Traveller;623540Why does anyone care what these troglodytes have to say. If they're hurting your business sit them down in front of a judge to explain their comments, that's what I'd do. I thoroughly enjoy suing people.
When I got criticized for some things about the Majestic Wilderlands. I just used it as an opportunity to explain what the product was and wasn't. Seems like what the Pundit is doing here.
I personally didn't care about the criticism I got except the ones about grammar. Which rightfully I should have caught and worked harder on the next products to make sure they were better.
Quote from: estar;623555When I got criticized for some things about the Majestic Wilderlands. I just used it as an opportunity to explain what the product was and wasn't. Seems like what the Pundit is doing here.
I personally didn't care about the criticism I got except the ones about grammar. Which rightfully I should have caught and worked harder on the next products to make sure they were better.
Valid criticism is fine and welcome as long as it's constructive, but I'd have real questions wherever these goon types are involved. I mean it's not as though they've made a secret of their personal distaste for the Pundit.
Quote from: The Traveller;623573Valid criticism is fine and welcome as long as it's constructive, but I'd have real questions wherever these goon types are involved. I mean it's not as though they've made a secret of their personal distaste for the Pundit.
They may be. But it goes with the territory. Whenever you put stuff out there for consumption, you get people who don't like you and will criticize you at every turn. I think these are not well thought out criticisms of the art or the game (and since only a small group of people have actually read the manuscript I think it is safe to say pretty much all their conclusions about the rules and book content are pure speculation). Pundit did the right thing by trying to set the record straight on some key points. Beyond that it isn't worth getting more involved. People have a right to post their opinions on forums. I trust gamers to make an objective assessment of Arrows of Indra on their own.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;623583and since only a small group of people have actually read the manuscript I think it is safe to say pretty much all their conclusions about the rules and book content are pure speculation
...and that would be the part where we enter the realm of malicious libel. It doesn't come with any territory, it's not acceptable, and it's not a
right anybody has.
Whatever, this is just my opinion. But when I see people afraid to publish because of these types, like I think it was Sacrosanct, it's time to make some changes.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;623551I think it should be obvious to viewers we were deliberatley aiming for an old school aethetic. As Pundit points out in his blog, some people like that style and others are less enthralled by it, but it does evoke a very clear oldschool vibe. I happen to love Fede's work on this (and I do want to clarify that he was paid someone suggested this was free art) and I think a strong effort was made to keep it both interesting and authentic. That said, the publisher, not the writer, takes responsibility for any shortcomings in art or presentation. If someone genuinely has an issue with the art, they ought to direct that concern at myself and Bedrock Games.
Also, those were just a couple of images. I believe when people see the finished book, with all the art, borders and layout design, they will be impressed. We are working with the layout guy now, and it is looking great.
I hope that when the layout guy is just a little further along, you might release a page or two of a completed part as a sample of what the interior is going to look like.
I've seen it, and I think the border art is fantastic, the tables are really well built (note that the actual layout of the tables was done by Bedrock's layout dude, I just sent it all in as text), and with the interior art added in there its going to look spectacular.
RPGPundit
Once I get something final, or close to, I definitely intend to post a preview.
Quote from: The Traveller;623597...and that would be the part where we enter the realm of malicious libel. It doesn't come with any territory, it's not acceptable, and it's not a right anybody has.
Whatever, this is just my opinion. But when I see people afraid to publish because of these types, like I think it was Sacrosanct, it's time to make some changes.
Well, I appreciate your support on this subject but if people took every thread like this that seriously, then everybody on every rpg forum ever would be taken to court. I can't speak for Pundit, but suing people over internet isn't part of how I do business. Having read the manuscript and played the game I can say it will be obvious to anyone who plays Arrows of Indra that the characterization of the game on the SA thread has no grounding in reality. Reasonable people can of course disagree over things like art quality and the details of history, but Pundit definitely made a point of being true to the source material. The game, though firmly OSR, reflects the Indian setting quite well (contrary to what they were speculating).
I think you guys are handling it the right way, showing the actual cultural history, so the detractors simply look ignorant, like the guy who doesn't like Shakespeare because there are too many cliches.
However, while I like the Old school feel, a lot of the art looks too rough and unprofessional I think. It's not Old School as much as Grade School if you know what I mean.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;623652the characterization of the game on the SA thread has no grounding in reality.
If you want to take into consideration a few posters who spend their days trawling the internet for badwrongopinions (which, of course, is no different to badwrongfun, except for the worrying compulsive aspect of collecting said opinions) then you're doing it wrong.
Yes, I was amused by the naysayer's blatant mischaracterizations because all it did was give me a chance to strut my stuff and show my know-how, all with the airtight alibi of defending my book from "misconceptions".
RPGPundit
Quote from: CRKrueger;623671I
However, while I like the Old school feel, a lot of the art looks too rough and unprofessional I think. It's not Old School as much as Grade School if you know what I mean.
And these kinds of criticisms don't bother me. Art quality is fair game and subjective so I don't mind people saying they don't ike what they see. Everyone has a different reaction to art, particularly stylized art, and I knew during the process of these being made that getting that old school feel meant walking a fine line (and I kept having to ask myself when I saw a new image where it fell in relation to that line). This particular image reminded me of a very iconic image of fantasy races in old school games, so I thought it looked great, but like I said reasonable people can disagree.
Where I get a bit irritated is when people suggest something like racism was behind any of the images because they look too light skinned, etc. I was very conscious (as was Pundit I think) of the effect art can have and one of the downside of black and white interiors is skin tone can be very hard to convery with any degree of subtlety. This is why you can clearly see the skin tone of the characters on the cover (which is in color) but not on the inside images so much. Because shading the black and white images would like have looked quite exagerated, I made the call that the artist should approach that ith caution.
Who gives a fuck what those entitled mouthbreathing wankers at SA think? not a single one of those basement dwellers has managed to put pen to paper and create anything of relevance, the very fact they are making a fuss about this game is a sign that yet again they've realised how pointless they're collective existances are and how little they have achived in life beyond pissing into the void and expecting to be showered with riches as a result.
Damn good blog post btw pretty much covered everything needed to shut them down and also gave me insight into how much work was done researching indian history and culture.
Quote from: Broken-Serenity;623822Who gives a fuck what those entitled mouthbreathing wankers at SA think? not a single one of those basement dwellers has managed to put pen to paper and create anything of relevance, the very fact they are making a fuss about this game is a sign that yet again they've realised how pointless they're collective existances are and how little they have achived in life beyond pissing into the void and expecting to be showered with riches as a result.
Damn good blog post btw pretty much covered everything needed to shut them down and also gave me insight into how much work was done researching indian history and culture.
Thank you. You know one of them gave a fairly detailed response that (unlike the rest of these morons) actually showed a modicum of knowledge on the subject; I would love to have him come here and talk about that so I could offer a rebuttal, but I'm guessing he doesn't have the balls.
Also, I like how the rest of them are desperately trying to ignore the point that I caught them up on their ignorant attempt to claim that I was the one uneducated on Indian history and myth. I guess that's what happens when you keep living in a little bubble of people telling each other how "stupid and ignorant" the "Grogs" are; one of the "grogs" with an education is inevitably going to expose you all as the comparative know-nothings you are. Just glad it got to be me.
RPGPundit
I want to play one of those monkey-dudes. They look awesome. :)
I have not been folllowing along, but I'm mildly interested. So, mechanically is it closer to d&d or t&t? And if it is d&d, which one? I wasn't sold on the art based on that one pic, honestly.
Please don't sue me. That would suck.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;623770Where I get a bit irritated is when people suggest something like racism was behind any of the images because they look too light skinned, etc. I was very conscious (as was Pundit I think) of the effect art can have and one of the downside of black and white interiors is skin tone can be very hard to convery with any degree of subtlety. This is why you can clearly see the skin tone of the characters on the cover (which is in color) but not on the inside images so much. Because shading the black and white images would like have looked quite exagerated, I made the call that the artist should approach that ith caution.
I think at this point in the culture, large swathes of people are walking around with "racism!!!" as their default response to pretty much everything. It's automatic and you shouldn't read anything much into it. Seriously, many people would not have anything to say online if that option was taken from them. You would literally hear the gears grinding as they struggled to formulate an original thought.
Quote from: Benoist;624021I want to play one of those monkey-dudes. They look awesome. :)
Vanara are pretty awesome; they're more socially-neutral too. Gandharvas and Yaksha are very highly regarded because of their closeness to the gods, while Rakshasa are distrusted because of their demonic natures. Vanara are just talking monkeys; so how people see them depends on what they do: some are greatly respected as warriors, some are looked at as troublesome rogues. They tend to be kind of blunt in language and social situations, which can often lead to some scandals.
Geography plays a part too; the further north you get the less likely anyone has ever seen a Vanara in this age.
If they're not talking or wearing clothes, they're pretty well indistinguishable from normal non-intelligent monkeys. They can also talk with their monkey-cousins. Both of these were traits that one of our playtesters used to really awesome effect in actual play.
RPGPundit
The racism thing is kind of silly; besides the fact that, as bedrock pointed out, we're talking about black and white images here, there's also the point that there's a huge range and disparity in skin tones when you're talking about Epic India (or modern India, for that matter). And again, the dress, armor and weapons are all based on real (historical) examples of cultural accoutrements.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Gib;624029I have not been folllowing along, but I'm mildly interested. So, mechanically is it closer to d&d or t&t? And if it is d&d, which one? I wasn't sold on the art based on that one pic, honestly.
Please don't sue me. That would suck.
Its an OGL game. Its got some important mechanical differences from all editions, but if you were to compare, the closest match up would probably be with 1e.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;624021I want to play one of those monkey-dudes. They look awesome. :)
I have to agree, especially in armor, like some of those old lithographs of the Monkey-King.
How much do you need to know about Indian mythology to get the best out of the game?
Is there a 'primer' included for those of us who are ignorant?
So... yeah, I'm the guy who drew those. Hi.
I'm perfectly ok with people not liking the art, that's fine... I'd really like to be given a chance by taking a look at the rest of it, since I do think that there are some way nicer ones, but no problem.
But hey, please, at least know that yes, I did research the whole thing, a lot.
Secondly, yes, I did get paid. Bedrock paid well and in time.
And finally, it's really not my fault if the markings on the cobras' backs look like a cock and balls.
(http://www.daijiworld.com/images1/cobra_042611-11.jpg)
Edit: Hey, check that out, 666 posts. He.
Quote from: Novastar;624053I have to agree, especially in armor, like some of those old lithographs of the Monkey-King.
There's some very interesting studies on the relationship between Hanuman in India and the Monkey-King legends in east asia.
RPGPundit
Quote from: SunBoy;624162So... yeah, I'm the guy who drew those. Hi.
I'm perfectly ok with people not liking the art, that's fine... I'd really like to be given a chance by taking a look at the rest of it, since I do think that there are some way nicer ones, but no problem.
But hey, please, at least know that yes, I did research the whole thing, a lot.
Secondly, yes, I did get paid. Bedrock paid well and in time.
And finally, it's really not my fault if the markings on the cobras' backs look like a cock and balls.
(http://www.daijiworld.com/images1/cobra_042611-11.jpg)
Edit: Hey, check that out, 666 posts. He.
Thanks for posting!
And don't get discouraged; I'm sure your style won't be for everyone, but do keep in mind that a significant percentage of the criticism here has nothing to do with you, your artistic ability, or any kind of legitimate questioning of your research; its just knee-jerk reactions to a book with "RPGPundit" on the cover. Bedrock games could have hired Alec Ross to do the art, and a lot of the arguments would have been the same.
RPGPundit
Quote from: One Horse Town;624088How much do you need to know about Indian mythology to get the best out of the game?
Is there a 'primer' included for those of us who are ignorant?
There's a lot of basic information in the book, all from the point of view of playability: how caste works, how clan works, information about the cultures of the bharata kingdoms, the climate, traditions, views on family, marriage, the legal code of the time, even stuff like taxation, a full chapter on religion, and of course the gazetteer of the kingdoms themselves, and more flavor text in the sections on the Patala Underworld, the magic items, and the Monster section. There's also an appendix which details how future events COULD transpire if you are loosely following the chronology of the mahabharata.
One thing I did was try to make all of it fit the needs of a gaming group. You won't find five-page essays on the cloth-dyeing methods of vedic civilization or elaborate polemics about linguistics or pronunciation. The setting material is made to be used in play.
I have tried to write the book in such a way that the reader needs NO prior study (or future study) of Indian mythology in order to play and enjoy Arrows of Indra. Of course, I don't discourage such study, I just don't want gamers to feel like they have to take an anthropology class just to play.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;624169Thanks for posting!
NP
Quote from: RPGPundit;624169And don't get discouraged; I'm sure your style won't be for everyone, but do keep in mind that a significant percentage of the criticism here has nothing to do with you, your artistic ability, or any kind of legitimate questioning of your research; its just knee-jerk reactions to a book with "RPGPundit" on the cover. Bedrock games could have hired Alec Ross to do the art, and a lot of the arguments would have been the same.
RPGPundit
That's OK, as I said, I'm perfectly fine with people not liking my work, I tried to answer only to the relevant parts. Also, any kind of legitimate questions about my research would be oh-so-much-fun to address (as long as Brendan is OK with it). Wait until they see what a real leather armor looked like.
Quote from: CRKrueger;623671like the guy who doesn't like Shakespeare because there are too many cliches.
That one made me do a spit take. Reminds me of "if English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for our kids".
I get not liking that..."style"...of art, but where on earth do the accusations of racism come from?
Quote from: TristramEvans;624205I get not liking that..."style"...of art, but where on earth do the accusations of racism come from?
Something Awful. Where else?
Quote from: Benoist;624206Something Awful. Where else?
lol, no I meant what was the basis for them? (I cant read the SA forums at work)
Quote from: TristramEvans;624207lol, no I meant what was the basis for them? (I cant read the SA forums at work)
There were quite a few different accusations. Those related to the art seemed to focus on the characters looking too white in their opinion. I might have missed some though.
Quote from: SunBoy;624201NP
That's OK, as I said, I'm perfectly fine with people not liking my work, I tried to answer only to the relevant parts. Also, any kind of legitimate questions about my research would be oh-so-much-fun to address (as long as Brendan is OK with it). Wait until they see what a real leather armor looked like.
Your art reminds me of the art in the original AD&D player's handbook. May not be my favorite but gets the point across.
I will get AoI eventually. It looks quite interesting.
Quote from: Jame Rowe;624353Your art reminds me of the art in the original AD&D player's handbook. May not be my favorite but gets the point across.
I will get AoI eventually. It looks quite interesting.
Thanks, man. That was the idea.
Quote from: Jame Rowe;624353Your art reminds me of the art in the original AD&D player's handbook. May not be my favorite but gets the point across.
I will get AoI eventually. It looks quite interesting.
Awesome!
Quote from: RPGPundit;624421Awesome!
I had hoped there'd be a playtest I could get in on but it was not to be. Oh well. Worthy cause and all that!
In response to your (now deleted) post, James, we did all playtesting in Uruguay.
RPGPundit
And it was (and is) awesome.
I'll have a playtest group for it when it is released... Being oldschool we'll probably just houserule any part that doesn't mesh well, however from the looks of the previews so far, that will probably be minimal.
The artwork looks just fine so far.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;624300There were quite a few different accusations. Those related to the art seemed to focus on the characters looking too white in their opinion. I might have missed some though.
huh. Crude? Certainly, thats what they were going for. But I didn't read the characters as looking "white" per se. Maybe because, in context, my mind simply fills in the blanks when it comes to b&w cartoons. Especially as the costuming at least looks pretty authentic.
Quote from: TristramEvans;624922huh. Crude? Certainly, thats what they were going for. But I didn't read the characters as looking "white" per se. Maybe because, in context, my mind simply fills in the blanks when it comes to b&w cartoons. Especially as the costuming at least looks pretty authentic.
I agree. People will need to judge for themselves of course, but this is something I pay attention to when giving art directions and approving art. Certainly my judgment is as prone to error as anyone elses. So if we ever do offend anyone, I am eager to hear. But any suggestion that we would consciously put out something with that aim is just wrong.
If the text in the RPG is as informative as the blog posts, then Pundy will have written a very well researched game. The various race options sound interesting. I hope you have a phonetic pronunciation guide for all the Indian words.
But the art is weak. I believe Pundy when he says its all accurate, but the art isn't inspiring me to want to play any of those guys.
This is especially bad because its a PC race lineup so its the image people will have their potential characters. I get wanting an old school vibe, but you can achieve that will better art.
Free public domain art gets a pass...somewhat. Nothing else does.
Quote from: Spinachcat;624968If the text in the RPG is as informative as the blog posts, then Pundy will have written a very well researched game. The various race options sound interesting. I hope you have a phonetic pronunciation guide for all the Indian words.
I think the setting material will be highly informative to anyone; if you've picked up Lords of Olympus, you know the kind of detail I like to use.
No pronunciation guide, though. I hadn't even considered that; I figure anyone who cares will be able to look up pronunciations, and most people won't worry about it.
As for the art, the samples are only a small part of the total art in the book. I've never found any "racial lineup" image to be particularly inspiring, I don't think that's the central point. The 3e one certainly wasn't for me, and neither is the slightly goofy-looking one from 1e.
RPGPundit
Can't view the picture in question. Shows up as a dead link.
Quote from: TristramEvans;624207lol, no I meant what was the basis for them? (I cant read the SA forums at work)
You realize "basis for an accusation" is an oxymoron when dealing with awfulpurple right?
I'm sure it's been mentioned elsewhere, but how big a book is AoI likely to be? A massive tome like DCC or a small OD&D style LBB?
Quote from: Simlasa;625382I'm sure it's been mentioned elsewhere, but how big a book is AoI likely to be? A massive tome like DCC or a small OD&D style LBB?
It should be between 190-200 pages.
Quote from: RPGPundit;625005No pronunciation guide, though. I hadn't even considered that; I figure anyone who cares will be able to look up pronunciations, and most people won't worry about it.
Make it a free download on the product page.
Quote from: RPGPundit;625005I've never found any "racial lineup" image to be particularly inspiring, I don't think that's the central point.
The best one I have seen is in Palladium Fantasy.
Quote from: Simlasa;625382I'm sure it's been mentioned elsewhere, but how big a book is AoI likely to be? A massive tome like DCC or a small OD&D style LBB?
Somewhere in between, about 200 pages.
RPGPundit
And judging by this thread, I can see that I'm going to have to start up the AoI Q&A thread sooner rather than later...
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;623612I hope that when the layout guy is just a little further along, you might release a page or two of a completed part as a sample of what the interior is going to look like.
I've seen it, and I think the border art is fantastic, the tables are really well built (note that the actual layout of the tables was done by Bedrock's layout dude, I just sent it all in as text), and with the interior art added in there its going to look spectacular.
RPGPundit
The layout guy here. Hello.
I'm glad you like what I've done so far. I am nearing the end of the most recent pass. I can say that the look of this game is not your typical old school look. I really tried to be a little more modern in font choice, and I think the look really works well.
Now I have to get back to making the tables look nice. :)
Richard
Quote from: RI2;626385The layout guy here. Hello.
I'm glad you like what I've done so far. I am nearing the end of the most recent pass. I can say that the look of this game is not your typical old school look. I really tried to be a little more modern in font choice, and I think the look really works well.
Now I have to get back to making the tables look nice. :)
Richard
Carry on! As you can see, we have a lot of people waiting for this game, with varying levels of patience.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;626688Carry on! As you can see, we have a lot of people waiting for this game, with varying levels of patience.
RPGPundit
Yup.
Sent new PDF yesterday. I really like this game.
Richard
Quote from: RI2;627109Yup.
Sent new PDF yesterday. I really like this game.
Richard
Thank you. I am, on the whole, very impressed with your layout work and how great the book is looking. I'm reviewing it right now.
Quote from: RPGPundit;627319Thank you. I am, on the whole, very impressed with your layout work and how great the book is looking. I'm reviewing it right now.
Thanks. I approach book design from a readability angle. You have to be able to read the text, and the text should not be hidden by the design. I still have some tweaks to make, but the book has a very organic feel, and part of this is I avoided tight text justification and went with a ragged look. The text needed it due to the amount of information in the book, and the number of tables. The eyes needed a little rest.
I really am trying to do your work justice, and I think I am pulling it off.
Glad you like it.
Richard
Well, do keep in mind I was complimenting you because you're also about to be buried under a torrent of corrections, adjustments and nitpicks; so I wanted you to take it softly, and not think that it meant I didn't like the overall layout, which is great.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;627452Well, do keep in mind I was complimenting you because you're also about to be buried under a torrent of corrections, adjustments and nitpicks; so I wanted you to take it softly, and not think that it meant I didn't like the overall layout, which is great.
RPGPundit
I would not be doing this if I could not handle revisions. It's all good. :)
Richard
Quote from: RI2;627527I would not be doing this if I could not handle revisions. It's all good. :)
Richard
Glad to hear it. They've been sent now.
RPGpundit