I recently found the game "Sagard the Barbarian" from Gary Gygax, and I'm curious how many books he published.
So did a quick search on internet and I found this site https://www.bookseriesinorder.com/gary-gygax/
How about Arneson? I only found one book Adventure Fantasy.
Are there other games or books that Gygax or Arneson published?
Outside of D&D, I was only familiar with his Lejendary Adventure game, but a look at wikipedia shows these. I'm curious if any of them are a good read too...
Other role-playing game related subjects
The Official Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Coloring Album (1979)
Hero's Challenge - Sagard the Barbarian gamebook:
The Ice Dragon (1985) with Flint Dille
The Green Hydra (1985) with Flint Dille
The Crimson Sea (1985) with Flint Dille
The Fire Demon (1986) with Flint Dille
Role-Playing Mastery (1987)
Master of the Game (1989)
The Weyland Smith & Company Giant Fun Catalog (1999)
Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Essays on Roleplaying (2000)
with Jim Dietz, Richard Garfield, Greg Costikyan, Marc Miller, Matt Forbeck, Greg Stafford and Rick Loomis
Novels
Greyhawk Adventure/Gord the Rogue series:
Saga of Old City (1985)
Artifact of Evil (1986)
Sea of Death (1987)
Night Arrant (1987, short stories)
City of Hawks (1987)
Come Endless Darkness (1988)
Dance of Demons (1988)
Dangerous Journeys novels:
The Anubis Murders (1992)
The Samarkand Solution (1993)
Death in Delhi (1993)
Infernal Sorceress (2008)
Gygax wrote a game called Dangerous Journeys.
I have never played it.
Although he didn't write it, the mighty Gygax was the man behind the incomparable Cyborg Commando, a game whose quality defies description.
Cathal - I presume you've seen these from Wikipedia, but they should be mentioned. I haven't played any of Cyborg Commando, Dangerous Journeys, or Lejendary Adventure - but I've skimmed through all three.
Dungeons & Dragons (1974) with Dave Arneson
Boot Hill (1975) with Brian Blume and Don Kaye
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons:
- Monster Manual (1977)
- Players Handbook (1978)
- Dungeon Masters Guide (1979)
Cyborg Commando (1987) with Frank Mentzer and Kim Mohan
Gary Gygax's Dangerous Journeys:
- Mythus (1992)
- Dangerous Journeys: Mythus Prime (1994)
Lejendary Adventure:
- The Lejendary Rules for All Players (1999)
- The Beasts of Lejend (2000)
- The Lejend Master's Lore (2000)
- Essentials (2005)
One could also look at some of his post-2000 adventures, which are less well-known:
- d20 Sword & Sorcery: Gary Gygax's Necropolis (2002)
- d20 system: Gary Gygax's the Hermit (2002)
- Lejendary Adventure - Terekaptra: Lost City of the Utiss (2004)
- d20 system: Gary Gygax's Hall of Many Panes (2005)
- Lejendary Adventure - Living the Legend (2006)
Also Castle Zagyg! I have the Yggsburgh hardback with its Darlene hex map (1 mile/hex), it's a very nice detailed sandbox.
I have always thought that, in the debate over the relative impact/importance of Gygax and Arneson, the fact that Arneson published so amazingly little and left such a long trail of unfulfilled promises and undelivered games speaks volumes about Arneson. If Gygax merely "typed up Arneson's notes" as some people insist is the accurate version of the story, then why is it that Arneson subsequently produced extremely little and Gygax an entire shelf of content—all while Gygax "managed" a company expanding by leaps and bounds.
(I put "managed" in quotes because most business experts question the wisdom of many of his choices. Nonetheless, making those choices unquestionably ate up time and energy.)
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 19, 2023, 12:13:21 AM
Although he didn't write it, the mighty Gygax was the man behind the incomparable Cyborg Commando, a game whose quality defies description.
Yeah, not sure what he was thinking when he wrote that.
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 19, 2023, 08:50:20 AM
I have always thought that, in the debate over the relative impact/importance of Gygax and Arneson, the fact that Arneson published so amazingly little and left such a long trail of unfulfilled promises and undelivered games speaks volumes about Arneson. If Gygax merely "typed up Arneson's notes" as some people insist is the accurate version of the story, then why is it that Arneson subsequently produced extremely little and Gygax an entire shelf of content—all while Gygax "managed" a company expanding by leaps and bounds.
(I put "managed" in quotes because most business experts question the wisdom of many of his choices. Nonetheless, making those choices unquestionably ate up time and energy.)
Yes, there is no doubt that Gygax won the divorce. Just like there is no doubt this topic will kick up a hornet's nest from the Arneson camp. :)
But I do believe the post D&D publishing records by both says something. On one hand Dave really didn't do anything. On the other, Gary never rekindled the magic. I believe they were undoubtedly better together.
Role-Playing Mastery and Master of the Game are...for lack of a better term, pure drudgery. I have both and have tried reading them straight through on multiple occasions. Let's just say it is difficult and unfulfilling for the most part. If you spend about twenty seconds Googling you can find both in PDF; maybe you'll have more luck than I did with reading comprehension.
Dangerous Journeys is a legitimately decent game, albeit pretty opaque in some places in true Gygaxian fashion. It's sad Gygax got sued because it is nothing like D&D for the most part. TSR just wanted to fuck with him, that much is apparent.
Arenson had a few RPG things, like the The First Fantasy Campaign, some D&D modules set in Blackmoor, and a much more recent Blackmoor book. It always felt like he definitely had a ghost writer or lots of editing help because none of these things matches the others in writing style. Contrast with Gygax who you can spot from a mile away.
Might have missed it, but Arneson was involved with the Adventures in Fantasy RPG, released in 1979 by Excalibre Games.
I think I still have Cyborg Commando in shrink. Bought it to see if it was as bad as said. Read more reviews before opening up. Tried to sell it on ebay, no takers. It's sat unloved, still in shrink on the shelf ever since. Might be worth something when everyone else has burned their copies or thrown them in the trash. Just another 20-30 years to hang onto it, then I'll try sell it again.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 19, 2023, 08:51:53 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 19, 2023, 12:13:21 AM
Although he didn't write it, the mighty Gygax was the man behind the incomparable Cyborg Commando, a game whose quality defies description.
Yeah, not sure what he was thinking when he wrote that.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FQInH0y1Ewthi8%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=0428bc5b551956e6726b1160594c9b239b7ace34c05b6e118ac6102e988fdd99&ipo=images)
Quote from: APN on April 19, 2023, 11:34:58 AM
I think I still have Cyborg Commando in shrink. Bought it to see if it was as bad as said. Read more reviews before opening up. Tried to sell it on ebay, no takers. It's sat unloved, still in shrink on the shelf ever since. Might be worth something when everyone else has burned their copies or thrown them in the trash. Just another 20-30 years to hang onto it, then I'll try sell it again.
Someone is trying to sell a copy of Cyborg Commando on Ebay for $1599.99. And they have two copies available.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 19, 2023, 12:03:15 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 19, 2023, 08:51:53 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 19, 2023, 12:13:21 AM
Although he didn't write it, the mighty Gygax was the man behind the incomparable Cyborg Commando, a game whose quality defies description.
Yeah, not sure what he was thinking when he wrote that.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FQInH0y1Ewthi8%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=0428bc5b551956e6726b1160594c9b239b7ace34c05b6e118ac6102e988fdd99&ipo=images)
Well I wasn't going to say it but I was thinking it. The gif is 100% :)
I found other books by Gary Gygax "Living Fantasy" and "World of Builder" and editor for "Books of Names"
As for games, there was Don't Give Up the Ship, which they both worked on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Give_Up_the_Ship_(game) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Give_Up_the_Ship_(game))
Quote from: Brad on April 19, 2023, 09:26:48 AM
Dangerous Journeys is a legitimately decent game, albeit pretty opaque in some places in true Gygaxian fashion. It's sad Gygax got sued because it is nothing like D&D for the most part. TSR just wanted to fuck with him, that much is apparent.
Remember when it came out. Looked really cool. Bought it, always wanted to run it, never did. With today's online resources, should be much easier to figure out.
I can see that Arneson did not publish anything else. Any reason of that? Because Gygax even having people trying to screw him over, he published games, books, and articles.
Quote from: Cathal on April 26, 2023, 11:34:43 AM
I can see that Arneson did not publish anything else. Any reason of that? Because Gygax even having people trying to screw him over, he published games, books, and articles.
I don't know, but what I've heard is that Arneson was an innovative wargamer and game-master, but he had a difficult time as a writer. Gygax on the other hand was a prolific writer who could easily fill a page with material.
I opened the shrink-wrap on my copy of Cyborg Commando, that I found in a dollar store of all places. It's an interesting game. The mechanics are a lot like Dangerous Journeys, especially character stats. There are three basic stats: Mental, Neural, and Physical. They are broken out into three substats each, Capacity, Integrity, and Recovery, for a total of 9 stats.
This compares closely to the Mental, Physical, and Spiritual traits in Dangerous Journeys, and the mechanic is similar to how Dangerous Journeys stats are broken into two substats per basic stat which are then further subdivided into Capacity, Power, and Speed for each substat, for 18 stats.
I've never run Cyborg Commando, but it seems like it would be easier to run than Dangerous Journeys.
Arneson wrote an adventure for Flying Buffalo's 'Mercenaries, Spys, and Private Eyes' called 'The Case of the Pacific Clipper'.
He was also involved in some of their City Books.
I played in a 'Don't Give up the Ship' event run by Dave at GenCon in Milwaukee.. a recreation of the battle of the Nile.
I think he was much more into miniatures and especially naval as I remember he talked about rule sets along that line,
although I don't know if he published them.
Quote from: capvideo on April 26, 2023, 12:29:59 PM
I opened the shrink-wrap on my copy of Cyborg Commando, that I found in a dollar store of all places. It's an interesting game. The mechanics are a lot like Dangerous Journeys, especially character stats. There are three basic stats: Mental, Neural, and Physical. They are broken out into three substats each, Capacity, Integrity, and Recovery, for a total of 9 stats.
This compares closely to the Mental, Physical, and Spiritual traits in Dangerous Journeys, and the mechanic is similar to how Dangerous Journeys stats are broken into two substats per basic stat which are then further subdivided into Capacity, Power, and Speed for each substat, for 18 stats.
I've never run Cyborg Commando, but it seems like it would be easier to run than Dangerous Journeys.
Did the dollar store shrink wrap it or was it in the original shrink wrap (if you know)?
I'm pretty sure Dave Arneson also wrote the Shadowrun adventure The DNA DOA which is a dungeon crawl.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 26, 2023, 01:50:58 PMDid the dollar store shrink wrap it or was it in the original shrink wrap (if you know)?
That was a *long* time ago, probably in the nineties. I don't even really remember if it was shrink-wrapped. My recollection is that it was not a store that sold used items but specialized in discontinued merchandise.
I don't recall that it was missing anything, although I'd have no way of recognizing which dice in my collection came with it, if I even still have them.
Quote from: capvideo on April 26, 2023, 02:41:43 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 26, 2023, 01:50:58 PMDid the dollar store shrink wrap it or was it in the original shrink wrap (if you know)?
That was a *long* time ago, probably in the nineties. I don't even really remember if it was shrink-wrapped. My recollection is that it was not a store that sold used items but specialized in discontinued merchandise.
I don't recall that it was missing anything, although I'd have no way of recognizing which dice in my collection came with it, if I even still have them.
That's fine. It would be cool if it was new and you got it brand new for a dollar.
Just checked Ebay. People are sure asking a lot of money for their copies of CC. Not sure there is that there is that much of an interest for it
Quote from: David Johansen on April 26, 2023, 02:38:32 PM
I'm pretty sure Dave Arneson also wrote the Shadowrun adventure The DNA DOA which is a dungeon crawl.
Interesting thank you for sharing.
Maybe I have the wrong impression, but Eric J Holmes published more books that Arneson?
The first edition of the Basic D&D, The Maze of Peril, Fantasy Role Playing Games and some novels.
Quote from: capvideo on April 26, 2023, 02:41:43 PMI don't recall that [Cyborg Commando] was missing anything, although I'd have no way of recognizing which dice in my collection came with it, if I even still have them.
Silly me. I considered this such a lucky find that I put those dice in my "emergency dice" bag for use only on special rolls. (That bag also contains the last remaining crayoned-in cheap plastic TSR white d20 that I used to use back in the eighties.) I discovered them at NTRPGC when I opened that bag up and remembered putting them there and why.
So yes, I definitely got the dice with it.
Quote from: Baron on April 19, 2023, 05:10:30 PM
As for games, there was Don't Give Up the Ship, which they both worked on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Give_Up_the_Ship_(game) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Give_Up_the_Ship_(game))
I think I had that once.
Arneson, Gygax and Kar?
oops Car. Same guy as wrote Dawn Patrol.
The Blackmoor Expert series of modules and setting material for BX/BECMI was written by Arneson and Ritchie except for the last one.
DA1 - Adventures in Blackmoor
DA2 - Temple of the Frog
DA3 - City of the Gods
DA4 - The Duchy of Ten
Wasn't Gygax involved in Tactics II ?
Sadly there were huge plans with Troll Lord for the full release of Yggsburgh (essentially Castle Zagyg/Greyhawk) for Castles & Crusades, but when Gary died, his widow pulled the project and has resisted its publication since from what I understand. You can still get some of the Troll Lord Yggsburgh stuff on ebay, though prices vary widely. I've never seen it, so I can't comment on quality.
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 19, 2023, 08:50:20 AM
I have always thought that, in the debate over the relative impact/importance of Gygax and Arneson, the fact that Arneson published so amazingly little and left such a long trail of unfulfilled promises and undelivered games speaks volumes about Arneson. If Gygax merely "typed up Arneson's notes" as some people insist is the accurate version of the story, then why is it that Arneson subsequently produced extremely little and Gygax an entire shelf of content—all while Gygax "managed" a company expanding by leaps and bounds.
(I put "managed" in quotes because most business experts question the wisdom of many of his choices. Nonetheless, making those choices unquestionably ate up time and energy.)
This is always a tough discussion because so many folks seem to be very passionate about it and everyone wants to take a side for one reason or another. My thoughts:
(1) I don't think anyone every really said that Gygax merely typed up Arneson's notes. Arneson had the idea well before he demoed the game for Gygax, Arneson shared notes with Gygax, Gygax took the concept and the notes and wrote a marketable product. D&D couldn't have happened without both.
(2) Gygax wrote a lot of stuff. He wrote articles on Diplomacy and wargames long before D&D and was really into contributing his ideas whenever and wherever he could do so. Gygax thought he could write fiction and got several books published. Gygax went to message boards and engaged in conversation with fans. Gygax never missed an opportunity to promote his products. While Arneson did publish some articles and products, Gygax clearly wins the "quantity" competition because he loved to write stuff.
(3) Gygax' biggest skill seems to be the ability to take someone else's ideas and build upon them. I don't mean this as a slam on Gygax, but if you look at his biggest successes they always seem to be built on someone else's ideas. For "Chainmail" Gygax took Jerr Perrin's medieval miniatures rules set and expanded upon those. The "Alexader the Great" board game that he did for Avalon Hill was done by revising Don Greenwood's original game. "Don't Give Up the Ship" was co-written with Arneson, bur Arneson is the one known for his knowledge of old sailing ships. "Boot Hill" was based on a previous unpublished western RPG written by Brian Blume. Gygax was an organizer and had a great way with words, but it's possible that he never had lightning strike twice in RPG design because he tried to do it alone later in life instead of collaborating with others.
(4) Arneson, on the other hand, was full of ideas but apparently unable to organize them into publishable material. Looking at his "Temple of the Frog" scenario in the Blackmoor supplement for OD&D (which I understand was also edited somewhat) you can see some great potential but the final product requires a lot of tinkering to actually run as a scenario. "First Fantasy Campaign" (one of my all-time favorite PRG products, by the way) reads like someone's notes rather than a complete setting. His "Adventures in Fantasy" RPG is interesting but a bit unorganized. I suspect that the success of his Shadowrun and ME&PE products were tied closely to editors and not just his ideas. This might explain why he published so much less than Gygax, as his stuff required more work to get publish-ready.
Each contributed to his favorite hobby in his own way. I dislike the whole stance that one was "better" than the other, since their strengths didn't really overlap but instead built on each other. Gygax was nearly a decade older than Arneson, and I wonder if this might have contributed to the friction between them since sometimes an older person comes off as a "mentor" instead of an equal. I just wish they had collaborated on more projects over the years.
Quote from: finarvyn on June 10, 2023, 11:30:54 AM
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 19, 2023, 08:50:20 AM
I have always thought that, in the debate over the relative impact/importance of Gygax and Arneson, the fact that Arneson published so amazingly little and left such a long trail of unfulfilled promises and undelivered games speaks volumes about Arneson. If Gygax merely "typed up Arneson's notes" as some people insist is the accurate version of the story, then why is it that Arneson subsequently produced extremely little and Gygax an entire shelf of content—all while Gygax "managed" a company expanding by leaps and bounds.
(I put "managed" in quotes because most business experts question the wisdom of many of his choices. Nonetheless, making those choices unquestionably ate up time and energy.)
This is always a tough discussion because so many folks seem to be very passionate about it and everyone wants to take a side for one reason or another. My thoughts:
(1) I don't think anyone every really said that Gygax merely typed up Arneson's notes. Arneson had the idea well before he demoed the game for Gygax, Arneson shared notes with Gygax, Gygax took the concept and the notes and wrote a marketable product. D&D couldn't have happened without both.
(2) Gygax wrote a lot of stuff. He wrote articles on Diplomacy and wargames long before D&D and was really into contributing his ideas whenever and wherever he could do so. Gygax thought he could write fiction and got several books published. Gygax went to message boards and engaged in conversation with fans. Gygax never missed an opportunity to promote his products. While Arneson did publish some articles and products, Gygax clearly wins the "quantity" competition because he loved to write stuff.
(3) Gygax' biggest skill seems to be the ability to take someone else's ideas and build upon them. I don't mean this as a slam on Gygax, but if you look at his biggest successes they always seem to be built on someone else's ideas. For "Chainmail" Gygax took Jerr Perrin's medieval miniatures rules set and expanded upon those. The "Alexader the Great" board game that he did for Avalon Hill was done by revising Don Greenwood's original game. "Don't Give Up the Ship" was co-written with Arneson, bur Arneson is the one known for his knowledge of old sailing ships. "Boot Hill" was based on a previous unpublished western RPG written by Brian Blume. Gygax was an organizer and had a great way with words, but it's possible that he never had lightning strike twice in RPG design because he tried to do it alone later in life instead of collaborating with others.
(4) Arneson, on the other hand, was full of ideas but apparently unable to organize them into publishable material. Looking at his "Temple of the Frog" scenario in the Blackmoor supplement for OD&D (which I understand was also edited somewhat) you can see some great potential but the final product requires a lot of tinkering to actually run as a scenario. "First Fantasy Campaign" (one of my all-time favorite PRG products, by the way) reads like someone's notes rather than a complete setting. His "Adventures in Fantasy" RPG is interesting but a bit unorganized. I suspect that the success of his Shadowrun and ME&PE products were tied closely to editors and not just his ideas. This might explain why he published so much less than Gygax, as his stuff required more work to get publish-ready.
Each contributed to his favorite hobby in his own way. I dislike the whole stance that one was "better" than the other, since their strengths didn't really overlap but instead built on each other. Gygax was nearly a decade older than Arneson, and I wonder if this might have contributed to the friction between them since sometimes an older person comes off as a "mentor" instead of an equal. I just wish they had collaborated on more projects over the years.
Nothing more needs to be said on this topic. You have encapsulated it perfectly.
This is something alot of gamers really do not understand.
Quite a bit of board game and even RPG design is actually not by the designer. But by the publisher. Some games change massively from point of submission to published product. D&D saw its development much the same. And all the Arneson product I have was co-written with someone else.
One problem is that lets face it. Arneson in later years lied about the inception of D&D to one degree or another. His claims of the timeline of development do not line up with Kask's or others recounting of events. How much so? No clue. Monard's said much the same though.
But at some point Gygax split off AD&D from this.