In The Telegraph today - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/dungeons-dragons-racism-game-controversy/
Are orcs 'racist'? The culture wars controversy tearing Dungeons & Dragons apart
Never mind wizards versus dragons. Today, the table-top game is a battleground between vocal millennials and angry long-time fans
By
Ed Power
31 March 2023 • 1:47pm
All together now: D&D features multiple different playable races CREDIT: Paramount Pictures
Last September, Dungeons & Dragons diced with death. The world's favourite tabletop role-playing game is today riding high with a new movie spin-off starring Hugh Grant and Chris Pine enjoying positive reviews. Six months ago, though, D&D and its publisher Wizards of the Coast were caught up in a bizarre racism controversy.
The flub that almost swallowed D&D revolved around Spelljammer – an expansion to the core game set in a fantastical version of outer space that owes a little to the writings of Edgar Rice Burroughs and a lot to Seventies prog rock album sleeves.
Tucked inside the Spelljammer box was a book called the Astral Adventurer's Guide. Here, D&D's estimated 14 million players were introduced to a race of monsters, the Hadozee.
These were described as sentient beings with monkey-like features who were captured and enslaved by wizards. They were then auctioned to the highest bidder. Illustrations accompanying the text showed a Hazodee "minstrel" playing the lute. You can imagine what happened next.
"Is it okay for me to call the Dragon game racist now? Because the Hadozee are f–king atrocious and the fact that this was released is unconscionable," tweeted one gamer.
"How did no one at WOTC read over the Hadozee origin being 'yeah they were created to be slaves by a bad wizard but were saved by a good wizard, and now they like to work alongside elves who barely acknowledge them as people,'" said another.
The debacle rippled across social media like a barrage of fireballs. Wizards of the Coast, a division of boardgames giant Hasbro, apologised. The Hazodee and their "background" had not been vetted since they originally appeared in the game in 1982. The offending paragraph disappeared from the Astral Guide. Wizards also pledged to hire "sensitivity" readers for future projects.
But the Hazodee hoo-ha is just one of several that have engulfed D&D. While its profile has never been higher among "normies," within the gaming community it is under fire from all sides. To some, the Spelljammer incident speaks to a game behind the times. One that is prisoner to its origins as the plaything of white Middle Americans from the Seventies.
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D&D Must Grapple With the Racism in Fantasy, went a headline in Wired magazine in 2021. Wired decried "the anti-black, anti-Semitic or Orientalist stereotypes" that defined races such as orcs and evil black-skinned Dark Elves, called drow.
Wizards of the Coast has taken steps to address these issues. Orcs and drow would, it vowed, "be portrayed as culturally complex". It has also removed a controversial "racial bonus rule". This had given players inherent advantages or disadvantages when playing a human, dwarf, gnome, elf etc.
tmg.video.placeholder.alt IiMinixSXII
But to other critics, D&D has come down with a fatal case of wokeness. They accuse it of pandering to a subset more interested in scoring political points than chucking dice and killing orcs. Such critics would furthermore point out that even killing orcs is problematic because they now have feelings, too, apparently.
"In a fantasy setting, some creature types should just be evil. No grey areas around it," wrote Ryan Abram on the blog Six Sides of Gaming. "What I'm referencing is Wizards of the Coast's attempt at being sensitive to racism and the notion of race-related negative stereotypes."
These often veteran gamers believe their hobby has been stolen from them by activist Gen Zers and millennials. Increasingly, the hold-outs have abandoned the game altogether in favour of "old school" rule sets that mimic the early Eighties edition of the D&D
"The races in D&D aren't the same as the races in the real world," gamer and Conservative blogger Christian Twiste told me last year. "They are closer to different species, each with their own unique traits, abilities, strengths, weaknesses, histories, and gods. What is the point of playing an elf that's the same as a human? Elves cease to be elves if they're treated like dwarves. Ultimately, different races, or species if you prefer, are as fundamental to fantasy as aliens are to science fiction. In my opinion, eliminating the differences reduces the richness of the game instead of enhancing it."
Blasphemous: a collection of Dungeons & Dragons board games
A collection of Dungeons & Dragons board games CREDIT: alamy
In the middle is a third group of players. They feel D&D, though historically significant, undeservedly overshadows other games. Dungeons & Dragons and table-top roleplaying are synonymous to the average person. That has leading to resentment in some gaming circles, where D&D is referred to derisively as "the dragon game".
"Wizards of the Coast are far and away the largest entity in pretty much all of tabletop gaming," says Michael Whelan, a game designer and writer for the Dicebreaker website, in an email.
"They're so massive that they make up about 70 per cent of Hasbro's earnings on their own. Roll20 [an online gaming platform] published a report in 2019 that showed over half of all games played on their platform are D&D with no other game breaking even 10 per cent of the share. With the release of their first ever feature film imminent it seems they're pretty set up to dominate for a long long time."
Losing its way: some longer term fans are unhappy with the series' direction
Losing its way: some longer term fans are unhappy with the series' direction CREDIT: Boston Globe
There is also criticism of the D&D's rules. They're too combat-oriented and don't deliver a truly rounded gaming experience, say detractors.
"It's overwhelmingly focused on combat with most of the progression you make in the game centred around either making you better at killing or giving you new powers to use in combat situations," says Whelan of D&D. "That makes sense, it's a combat-heavy game that was originally built as a miniature wargame, not unlike Warhammer.
"The problem most RPG players that sit outside of D&D's play space have with the system is how it's twisted and manipulated to suit the game that each table wants to play, whether it's a cosy slice-of-life campaign or a space opera," he continues. "There are hundreds of RPGs that could fill that niche but players would, a lot of the time, rather keep to what they know and play football with a snooker cue rather than learn to lace up some boots if you'll excuse a rather weird analogy."
With Dungeons & Dragons: Honour Among Thieves about to roar into the box office, these controversies will be lost on the public. But for D&D and Wizards of the Coast appealing to different generations of gamers is a growing challenge. It is one the company is doing its best to meet by rolling out rules changes for a new version of the game called "One D&D". As that process continues the big unknown is whether it will do away with its traditional concept of "races".
Whichever way D&D goes, it is sure to infuriate a huge segment of its player base. Wizards of the Coast no doubt wishes it had a magic wand that could make the controversy disappear. Yet in the real world, there is no such thing as magic – and that is a reality the world's favourite RPG will have to confront sooner or later.
Imagine being so racist that if you ever see the depiction of a monkey in fantasy art, you immediately think it's supposed to be a black person. It's like monkeys do not exist in real life, they are just fabrications intended to make fun of blacks.
Well, to answer the question: Yes, orcs are racist because they pretty much hate all other races and regularly make war upon them, often even taking their womenfolk to create unsavory half-breeds. End of discussion.
Quote from: Brad on March 31, 2023, 03:33:37 PM
Imagine being so racist that if you ever see the depiction of a monkey in fantasy art, you immediately think it's supposed to be a black person. It's like monkeys do not exist in real life, they are just fabrications intended to make fun of blacks.
I'm sure you can find someone who claims Jews breed monkeys to be a mockery of the Black Egyptians.
Hell, I suspect that person is probably a real Nazi the progs haven't even noticed because he validates their anti-Semitism.
I will say he won't be someone who played D&D before the latest fad period.
I don't get the argument. Orcs are pigmen. Pigmen Jerry!
Not this shit again!
You know what? We should just agree with them, let them tear apart D&D and make it as "Anti-Racist" as they want, what the fuck do I care? I'm not buying ANY WotC sludge, I'm not playing ANYTHING they ever created and I have plenty of Books/Games/Supplements for the rest of my life (but will still buy something that interests me).
I told Pundit a couple of years back (maybe more) that D&D isn't the hobby and the sooner it's destroyed the better for the hobby.
We should help the woketards to destroy it, edge them on, then -when the hobby sinks back into obscurity- we can go back to playing in peace.
We need to turn the tables on this nonsense. How about this: Orcs are racist. Tolkien was a racist. And we are all racists for not deleting orcs and canceling Tolkien.
So now what? Still here and playing games with regular people. Yawn. What should be happening now? Zzzzz.
I don't think there's any point in giving oxygen to this type of claim. It isn't worthwhile rebutting it, because taking this type of accusation seriously just feeds it with rationality that the actual claim is entirely lacking.
The proper response in a mature world is to exile anyone making this type of stupid claim from polite society, even (ideally) hitting them with a defamation lawsuit that would leave them destitute and impoverished.
Quote from: Zelen on March 31, 2023, 06:40:05 PM
I don't think there's any point in giving oxygen to this type of claim. It isn't worthwhile rebutting it, because taking this type of accusation seriously just feeds it with rationaly that the actual claim is entirely lacking.
The proper response in a mature world is to exile anyone making this type of stupid claim from polite society, even (ideally) hitting them with a defamation lawsuit that would leave them destitute and impoverished.
Greetings!
I agree, Zelen. I don't understand why any DM or group--upon hearing a player utter such hateful nonsense, would even continue to tolerate their presence. "This game isn't for you." End of story. Such morons are not welcome, and they are not invited back. They are promptly and ruthlessly excluded from the group.
I suppose that wouldn't totally eliminate such jackasses from the hobby, but it would strongly isolate them into their own small circles of like-minded, gibbering maniacs. They need to be ostracized and rejected at every turn.
I know I wouldn't tolerate such morons in my groups. As soon as they blubbered such insanity, game over. Get the fuck out. No, no. There's no talking, no negotiation, no compromise. I'm not interested in "hearing them out." I don't care about "Their feelings." Fuck them and "their feelings!"
People need to be harsh and ruthless with these morons. Show them no mercy, and don't give them even an inch.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Don't fall for the tripe, gang.
D&D movie is about to come out. Rag of a newspaper posts a story about how D&D is racist and rekindles the argumentative fires of controversy which brings the game to the mind of the reader. Suddenly Hasbro spends some more advertising money on the newspaper.
No mention of the larger controversy that united all of gamerdom and cost WotC D&D Beyond subscription money, plus lost customer goodwill. Nope, no mention of that expensive blunder at all. Almost as if they don't want the reader to even know that it happened.
sigh...orcs can be stand ins for anything you want them to be, even racist white people. They are the other.
Somewhere in the multiverse, Orcs are accusing Elves of inventing black people as a Warg-whistle about Orcs.
(https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/crop:x-20,resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/d95d99f2776b08dd06a851c164faeaad4d68a822b2954d0fac1d924042a87bf6_1.jpg)
No-one tell them that Warhammer has had Black Orcs for decades.
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 31, 2023, 07:20:44 PM
Don't fall for the tripe, gang.
D&D movie is about to come out. Rag of a newspaper posts a story about how D&D is racist and rekindles the argumentative fires of controversy which brings the game to the mind of the reader. Suddenly Hasbro spends some more advertising money on the newspaper.
No mention of the larger controversy that united all of gamerdom and cost WotC D&D Beyond subscription money, plus lost customer goodwill. Nope, no mention of that expensive blunder at all. Almost as if they don't want the reader to even know that it happened.
Yeah. I actually think this article was written last year & only published now to come out with the film.
BTW The Telegraph is right wing & doesn't actually say orcs or Hadozee *are* racist. If anything it's aimed at riling up their mostly conservative readership.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 31, 2023, 04:03:33 PM
Well, to answer the question: Yes, orcs are racist because they pretty much hate all other races and regularly make war upon them, often even taking their womenfolk to create unsavory half-breeds. End of discussion.
Seriously?
This absolutism and anthropomorphic view doesn't sit well with me. Orcs are, as created by Tolkien, monsters derived from Elves. The hatred is not modern in tone or contextual to modern social concerns, it's part of a medieval/dark age style fantasy. Orcs despise what they are and take it out on anyone else, but given their primal and barbaric nature, would probably behave the same anyway. But their motives are not actually 'racist' because they don't see themselves as superior in racial terms. Orcs are simply 'normal' to themselves and want to survive, prosper, and pursue ambition just the same as any other fantasy race/species, just that they are 'evil' and thus behave barbarically, a sort of fantasy version of the revulsion sophisticated Romans felt toward the Germanic tribes who slaughtered three legions in the Germanian forests of ad9.
So, what's the alternative? Peace negotiations with an Orkish embassy? Cultural tourism to Ork homelands? Rights for Orkish immigrants? Bureaucratic forms that include Orkish translations so the wee beasties can fill in government forms?
If you're going to create a game that relies on modern social context why are you bothering with fantasy?
Quote from: caldrail on April 01, 2023, 03:35:32 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on March 31, 2023, 04:03:33 PM
Well, to answer the question: Yes, orcs are racist because they pretty much hate all other races and regularly make war upon them, often even taking their womenfolk to create unsavory half-breeds. End of discussion.
Seriously?
This absolutism and anthropomorphic view doesn't sit well with me. Orcs are, as created by Tolkien, monsters derived from Elves. The hatred is not modern in tone or contextual to modern social concerns, it's part of a medieval/dark age style fantasy. Orcs despise what they are and take it out on anyone else, but given their primal and barbaric nature, would probably behave the same anyway. But their motives are not actually 'racist' because they don't see themselves as superior in racial terms. Orcs are simply 'normal' to themselves and want to survive, prosper, and pursue ambition just the same as any other fantasy race/species, just that they are 'evil' and thus behave barbarically, a sort of fantasy version of the revulsion sophisticated Romans felt toward the Germanic tribes who slaughtered three legions in the Germanian forests of ad9.
So, what's the alternative? Peace negotiations with an Orkish embassy? Cultural tourism to Ork homelands? Rights for Orkish immigrants? Bureaucratic forms that include Orkish translations so the wee beasties can fill in government forms?
If you're going to create a game that relies on modern social context why are you bothering with fantasy?
He's saying that orcs are themselves racist to other races. In-world.
Quote from: S'mon on April 01, 2023, 04:14:41 AM
Quote from: caldrail on April 01, 2023, 03:35:32 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on March 31, 2023, 04:03:33 PM
Well, to answer the question: Yes, orcs are racist because they pretty much hate all other races and regularly make war upon them, often even taking their womenfolk to create unsavory half-breeds. End of discussion.
Seriously?
This absolutism and anthropomorphic view doesn't sit well with me. Orcs are, as created by Tolkien, monsters derived from Elves. The hatred is not modern in tone or contextual to modern social concerns, it's part of a medieval/dark age style fantasy. Orcs despise what they are and take it out on anyone else, but given their primal and barbaric nature, would probably behave the same anyway. But their motives are not actually 'racist' because they don't see themselves as superior in racial terms. Orcs are simply 'normal' to themselves and want to survive, prosper, and pursue ambition just the same as any other fantasy race/species, just that they are 'evil' and thus behave barbarically, a sort of fantasy version of the revulsion sophisticated Romans felt toward the Germanic tribes who slaughtered three legions in the Germanian forests of ad9.
So, what's the alternative? Peace negotiations with an Orkish embassy? Cultural tourism to Ork homelands? Rights for Orkish immigrants? Bureaucratic forms that include Orkish translations so the wee beasties can fill in government forms?
If you're going to create a game that relies on modern social context why are you bothering with fantasy?
He's saying that orcs are themselves racist to other races. In-world.
Yes; this was exactly my point. Nowadays I too often feel like Charlie Brown, as no one seems to appreciate sarcasm or have the sense of humor or intelligence to step back and see the utter ridiculousness of so many rants.
Thank you, good sir.
Quote from: S'mon on April 01, 2023, 04:14:41 AM
Quote from: caldrail on April 01, 2023, 03:35:32 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on March 31, 2023, 04:03:33 PM
Well, to answer the question: Yes, orcs are racist because they pretty much hate all other races and regularly make war upon them, often even taking their womenfolk to create unsavory half-breeds. End of discussion.
Seriously?
This absolutism and anthropomorphic view doesn't sit well with me. Orcs are, as created by Tolkien, monsters derived from Elves. The hatred is not modern in tone or contextual to modern social concerns, it's part of a medieval/dark age style fantasy. Orcs despise what they are and take it out on anyone else, but given their primal and barbaric nature, would probably behave the same anyway. But their motives are not actually 'racist' because they don't see themselves as superior in racial terms. Orcs are simply 'normal' to themselves and want to survive, prosper, and pursue ambition just the same as any other fantasy race/species, just that they are 'evil' and thus behave barbarically, a sort of fantasy version of the revulsion sophisticated Romans felt toward the Germanic tribes who slaughtered three legions in the Germanian forests of ad9.
So, what's the alternative? Peace negotiations with an Orkish embassy? Cultural tourism to Ork homelands? Rights for Orkish immigrants? Bureaucratic forms that include Orkish translations so the wee beasties can fill in government forms?
If you're going to create a game that relies on modern social context why are you bothering with fantasy?
He's saying that orcs are themselves racist to other races. In-world.
Indeed, I think this is a case of how radicalized it's all become that people are jumping at shadows whenever the word "racism" is even uttered rather than reading the context, which in this case is that orcs in most fantasy settings are actually "orc supremacists."
Don't tell them about the orcs from the Dark Eye. They're called coal pelts.
Do you think that the racist wokesters would lay off if we said the orcs are Republicans? Warped by evil magic and support for their main bad guy. Use their own efforts to dehumanize to dismantle their racist trash.
It's been said before, but I'll say it again. The fact that those wacko progressives think orcs are some kind of code for black people says a lot more about them than it does about us. Not in a good way.
As someone whose second RPG ever was Star Frontiers, I'm more pissed off they absolutely shat on the Yazirians with this crap about the Hadozee. Anyone who isn't a brain dead moron could clearly tell the Yazirians were inspired by Wookies and not "muh black people". And since Hadozee were just Yazirians crossed into Spelljammer, it takes a special level of stupid not to see this fact. Even their epithet "Deck Ape" is a meta-joke since a US Navy Bosun's Mate is called a "Deck Ape".
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 04:57:00 PM
Not this shit again!
You know what? We should just agree with them, let them tear apart D&D and make it as "Anti-Racist" as they want, what the fuck do I care? I'm not buying ANY WotC sludge, I'm not playing ANYTHING they ever created and I have plenty of Books/Games/Supplements for the rest of my life (but will still buy something that interests me).
I told Pundit a couple of years back (maybe more) that D&D isn't the hobby and the sooner it's destroyed the better for the hobby.
We should help the woketards to destroy it, edge them on, then -when the hobby sinks back into obscurity- we can go back to playing in peace.
So you stand by and do nothing when they come for your D&D.
Do you stand by and do nothing when they come for your OSR?
When they come for the FLGS?
Standing by and doing nothing is how we got in this damn situation.
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 31, 2023, 05:12:10 PM
We need to turn the tables on this nonsense. How about this: Orcs are racist. Tolkien was a racist. And we are all racists for not deleting orcs and canceling Tolkien.
So now what? Still here and playing games with regular people. Yawn. What should be happening now? Zzzzz.
Nah. They push for "Equal Rights Orcs!" because they push the lie that orcs were allways ONLY EVER EVILLLLLLLL!
And people beleve it because they are too weak willed to open the damn book and read that "oh hey, Orcs can be like neutral?" or "Oh hey, Any monster can be whatever. The listed alignment is just the ones you tend to meet."
But they have to push the lie that this never was.
Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2023, 09:14:22 AM
Nah. They push for "Equal Rights Orcs!" because they push the lie that orcs were allways ONLY EVER EVILLLLLLLL!
And people beleve it because they are too weak willed to open the damn book and read that "oh hey, Orcs can be like neutral?" or "Oh hey, Any monster can be whatever. The listed alignment is just the ones you tend to meet."
But they have to push the lie that this never was.
Recently got Orcs of Thar...interesting this came out in 1988. Orcs, and a lot of the other goblinoid races, are depicted as what looks like misunderstood jerks. They're literally alien compared to humans and do not think the same whatsoever. They remind me more of viking raiders than eeeeeevil monsters, honestly.
But of course this actual D&D book published for D&D by the company that created D&D doesn't matter, I suppose, because it doesn't fit the narrative. The original Monster Manual entry says they are Lawful Evil, but are pretty well organized, so even if they're eeeeeevil creatures to kill, they're more sophisticated than modern gamers want to believe. I suppose they never actually read Lord of the Rings...
Actual facts never matter to the creatures that do this. It's just a means to exert power over others. That's always been the case.
Quote from: Brad on April 02, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
Recently got Orcs of Thar...interesting this came out in 1988. Orcs, and a lot of the other goblinoid races, are depicted as what looks like misunderstood jerks. They're literally alien compared to humans and do not think the same whatsoever. They remind me more of viking raiders than eeeeeevil monsters, honestly.
Oh, that book has gotten into a
lot of trouble recently (https://www.enworld.org/threads/petition-acknowledge-hasbros-hurtful-content-black-orcs-asian-yellow-orcs-native-american-red-orcs-%E2%80%94through-an-amendatory-bundle-thread.695740/).
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 02, 2023, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: Brad on April 02, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
Recently got Orcs of Thar...interesting this came out in 1988. Orcs, and a lot of the other goblinoid races, are depicted as what looks like misunderstood jerks. They're literally alien compared to humans and do not think the same whatsoever. They remind me more of viking raiders than eeeeeevil monsters, honestly.
Oh, that book has gotten into a lot of trouble recently (https://www.enworld.org/threads/petition-acknowledge-hasbros-hurtful-content-black-orcs-asian-yellow-orcs-native-american-red-orcs-%E2%80%94through-an-amendatory-bundle-thread.695740/).
If this is what you've decided to research as a graduate student in Native American studies, you've really got way too much time on your hands and an utterly skewed sense of priorities. This adventure supplement has had zero impact on the plight of Native American or African or Asian American communities. Why not try solving real societal problems & issues stemming from things like broken families, drug abuse and alcoholism, etc. Next thing we know, some grad student is going to claim reading this triggered 9/11.
The entire supplement, like much of the gazetteer line, is written in a tongue-in-cheek fashion. That was my problem with it back in the day. I wanted a more serious take. But we rolled up characters and had fun playing them for a few sessions anyhow.
This stuff drives me nuts. Just like the forced changing of team names & mascots in sports. I've yet to see a study showing any demonstrable positive effect on Native American societies since the Indians became the Guardians or the Redskins became the Commanders. But I've seen plenty of white virtue signalers crowing about it.
Quote from: Persimmon on April 02, 2023, 11:12:40 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 02, 2023, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: Brad on April 02, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
Recently got Orcs of Thar...interesting this came out in 1988. Orcs, and a lot of the other goblinoid races, are depicted as what looks like misunderstood jerks. They're literally alien compared to humans and do not think the same whatsoever. They remind me more of viking raiders than eeeeeevil monsters, honestly.
Oh, that book has gotten into a lot of trouble recently (https://www.enworld.org/threads/petition-acknowledge-hasbros-hurtful-content-black-orcs-asian-yellow-orcs-native-american-red-orcs-%E2%80%94through-an-amendatory-bundle-thread.695740/).
If this is what you've decided to research as a graduate student in Native American studies, you've really got way too much time on your hands and an utterly skewed sense of priorities. This adventure supplement has had zero impact on the plight of Native American or African or Asian American communities. Why not try solving real societal problems & issues stemming from things like broken families, drug abuse and alcoholism, etc. Next thing we know, some grad student is going to claim reading this triggered 9/11.
The entire supplement, like much of the gazetteer line, is written in a tongue-in-cheek fashion. That was my problem with it back in the day. I wanted a more serious take. But we rolled up characters and had fun playing them for a few sessions anyhow.
This stuff drives me nuts. Just like the forced changing of team names & mascots in sports. I've yet to see a study showing any demonstrable positive effect on Native American societies since the Indians became the Guardians or the Redskins became the Commanders. But I've seen plenty of white virtue signalers crowing about it.
If one of the teams was called the Nashville N*****s would you feel the same?
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on April 02, 2023, 01:33:17 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 02, 2023, 11:12:40 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 02, 2023, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: Brad on April 02, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
Recently got Orcs of Thar...interesting this came out in 1988. Orcs, and a lot of the other goblinoid races, are depicted as what looks like misunderstood jerks. They're literally alien compared to humans and do not think the same whatsoever. They remind me more of viking raiders than eeeeeevil monsters, honestly.
Oh, that book has gotten into a lot of trouble recently (https://www.enworld.org/threads/petition-acknowledge-hasbros-hurtful-content-black-orcs-asian-yellow-orcs-native-american-red-orcs-%E2%80%94through-an-amendatory-bundle-thread.695740/).
If this is what you've decided to research as a graduate student in Native American studies, you've really got way too much time on your hands and an utterly skewed sense of priorities. This adventure supplement has had zero impact on the plight of Native American or African or Asian American communities. Why not try solving real societal problems & issues stemming from things like broken families, drug abuse and alcoholism, etc. Next thing we know, some grad student is going to claim reading this triggered 9/11.
The entire supplement, like much of the gazetteer line, is written in a tongue-in-cheek fashion. That was my problem with it back in the day. I wanted a more serious take. But we rolled up characters and had fun playing them for a few sessions anyhow.
This stuff drives me nuts. Just like the forced changing of team names & mascots in sports. I've yet to see a study showing any demonstrable positive effect on Native American societies since the Indians became the Guardians or the Redskins became the Commanders. But I've seen plenty of white virtue signalers crowing about it.
If one of the teams was called the Nashville N*****s would you feel the same
I'll take 'things that are in no way comparable' for 300, please Alex.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on April 02, 2023, 01:33:17 PM
If one of the teams was called the Nashville N*****s would you feel the same?
LOL
Why bother trying to make an argument when the Marxists do it for you?
Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2023, 09:10:43 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 04:57:00 PM
Not this shit again!
You know what? We should just agree with them, let them tear apart D&D and make it as "Anti-Racist" as they want, what the fuck do I care? I'm not buying ANY WotC sludge, I'm not playing ANYTHING they ever created and I have plenty of Books/Games/Supplements for the rest of my life (but will still buy something that interests me).
I told Pundit a couple of years back (maybe more) that D&D isn't the hobby and the sooner it's destroyed the better for the hobby.
We should help the woketards to destroy it, edge them on, then -when the hobby sinks back into obscurity- we can go back to playing in peace.
So you stand by and do nothing when they come for your D&D.
Do you stand by and do nothing when they come for your OSR?
When they come for the FLGS?
Standing by and doing nothing is how we got in this damn situation.
Official D&D was done the second WotC bought it from TSR.
WotC will not change what they are doing. And nothing you can do will change that.
Luckily, "official" D&D isn't the hobby.
Support games and companies that don't hate you, and gatekeep the fuck out of your neck of the woods.
Let's put it this way, I'm white and from a decidedly blue collar background. Most of my family, including my parents, did not go to college nor did they save money to put me through it. I'm not an elite, but I was smart enough to get into college and keep going through grad school because I found a field of study I loved. But I had to work, take out loans (which I paid back) and struggle through yet I'm not running around claiming victimhood.
But if you want to call your team the White Trash Honkey Crackers, this has zero impact on me and my self-perception. Nor does it affect my economic status.
I've spent a fair amount of my life living in East Asia, where I'm an obvious minority and people will stare at you and denigrate you to your face, assuming you don't speak the language. Again, does not affect my self-perception or sense of self-worth, nor do I whine about their systemic racism. In fact, the lack of political correctness over there is refreshing. I just roll with it, demonstrate that I do in fact understand the language and culture and move on. But their stereotypes and representations of non-Asians don't bother me; I have better things to do than cry about that stuff.
The fact is, the rationale for using Indian names and symbols in the first place was to emphasize positive characteristics of toughness and valor. Hell, Native Americans designed the freakin' logo for the Washington Redskins. So claims of "appropriation" or whatever in that case are pretty hollow.
Also, it occurred to me, what did that guy say about the Atruaghin Clans gazetteer? We simply thought it was cool at the time because you got interesting new PC options. It was "Cool, we can create fighters based on the Sioux," rather than Medieval knights. The same was true for the other gazetteers. They were actually trying to be inclusive in the norms of the time.
Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2023, 09:10:43 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 04:57:00 PM
Not this shit again!
You know what? We should just agree with them, let them tear apart D&D and make it as "Anti-Racist" as they want, what the fuck do I care? I'm not buying ANY WotC sludge, I'm not playing ANYTHING they ever created and I have plenty of Books/Games/Supplements for the rest of my life (but will still buy something that interests me).
I told Pundit a couple of years back (maybe more) that D&D isn't the hobby and the sooner it's destroyed the better for the hobby.
We should help the woketards to destroy it, edge them on, then -when the hobby sinks back into obscurity- we can go back to playing in peace.
So you stand by and do nothing when they come for your D&D.
Do you stand by and do nothing when they come for your OSR?
When they come for the FLGS?
Standing by and doing nothing is how we got in this damn situation.
Official current shinny thing D&D is dead, you can cry to high heavens there's nothing you, me or all of us together can do to make Ha$bro change course.
The OSR is perfectly safe, at least from infiltration by the woketards, it's a decentralized non-entity there's not a single `point they can infiltrate and control all of it. (Which is why they haven't managed to do it.
The FLGS are, sadly, fucked; just like Comic Book Shops, Funko is crashing, MtG is going down slowly, there's not a single TTRPG that would be able to keep them afloat, and worst yet, most or a big plurality are run by blue haired woketards, nothing I can do, "MY" FLGS closed a while ago because there's not enough market around here.
But, IF there's some non woke FLGS around they may survive the purge, if not and there's REALLY any money to be made running one others will fill the niche.
Furthermore, I'm not "doing nothing", I'm supporting and promoting the games and creators I like while not giving a hard earned peso to those who hate me.
"Or orcs racist?"
Only if you are stupid.
For the majority of real gamers, no one even thinks that way. Orcs are just orcs. Have them in my game and don't think about them any way but they are orcs. But I am guessing the people who think that way only buy games and don't actually play them.
But who knows, maybe they are just stupid.
Quote from: The Spaniard on April 01, 2023, 03:45:59 PM
It's been said before, but I'll say it again. The fact that those wacko progressives think orcs are some kind of code for black people says a lot more about them than it does about us. Not in a good way.
I've found that the people who are making this argument fall into three categories:
1) Those that want a job at WotC as a cultural sensitivity reader
2) Those that want players to stop playing D&D (and this includes WotC trying to get people to stop playing older editions)
3) People too scared to contradict the safe narrative.
I haven't seen anyone who believes this sincerely.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 02, 2023, 07:16:54 PM
I've found that the people who are making this argument fall into three categories:
1) Those that want a job at WotC as a cultural sensitivity reader
A job that should not exist at all.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 02, 2023, 07:16:54 PM2) Those that want players to stop playing D&D (and this includes WotC trying to get people to stop playing older editions)
They will never be able to make this happen. Ever.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 02, 2023, 07:16:54 PM3) People too scared to contradict the safe narrative.
AKA Weak people. The sooner the hobby dumps them, the better.
Some guy did a psychology study a while back and found no correlation. https://areomagazine.com/2022/02/04/evil-orcs-accusations-of-racism-in-dungeons-and-dragons/
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2023, 11:39:59 AM
Some guy did a psychology study a while back and found no correlation. https://areomagazine.com/2022/02/04/evil-orcs-accusations-of-racism-in-dungeons-and-dragons/
Good read, thanks for the link
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2023, 11:39:59 AM
Some guy did a psychology study a while back and found no correlation. https://areomagazine.com/2022/02/04/evil-orcs-accusations-of-racism-in-dungeons-and-dragons/
Great article. I am going to post the link to this any time someone tries to make the comparison.
QuoteMaking fictional monster races less evil, removing controversial topics like slavery from the game—or locating adventures in buildings that resemble university dorms, complete with wheelchair-accessible dungeons—is taking a safetyism approach to gaming—treating players as if they were made of spun glass. In countenancing these changes, we may in a small way be contributing to what, in the US, experts have identified as our country's mental health crisis.
"Harm" as the dominant moral mode of the West. (https://youtu.be/pIrqR-sWyo0?t=780)
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2023, 11:39:59 AM
Some guy did a psychology study a while back and found no correlation. https://areomagazine.com/2022/02/04/evil-orcs-accusations-of-racism-in-dungeons-and-dragons/
A good article; thanks for posting this.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on April 08, 2023, 12:07:15 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2023, 11:39:59 AM
Some guy did a psychology study a while back and found no correlation. https://areomagazine.com/2022/02/04/evil-orcs-accusations-of-racism-in-dungeons-and-dragons/
A good article; thanks for posting this.
The great thing is if someone says they are racist just give them the link and BAM mike drop.
Then walk away going F'ing SJWS