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The settings that fall under the category of "grimdark": hopelessly oppressive, ridiculously militaristic usually, almost always full of cheap "visuals" full of nonsense comparable to the worst masturbation fantasies of certain types of comic book artists and heavy metal fans.

This thread is the chance for anyone who wants to try to argue that these settings have any redeeming qualities; are any of them actually worthwhile because of their value as settings? As comedy? As cautionary tales? Anything else?

And if so, what makes those different from the vast majority of ridiculously vapid Grimdark settings?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;501954The settings that fall under the category of "grimdark": hopelessly oppressive, ridiculously militaristic usually, almost always full of cheap "visuals" full of nonsense comparable to the worst masturbation fantasies of certain types of comic book artists and heavy metal fans.

This thread is the chance for anyone who wants to try to argue that these settings have any redeeming qualities; are any of them actually worthwhile because of their value as settings? As comedy? As cautionary tales? Anything else?

And if so, what makes those different from the vast majority of ridiculously vapid Grimdark settings?

RPGPundit

Does Ravenloft count?

I like both WFRP and 40k. I also play them pretty straight. There are a lot of periods of human history that were just as nasty as WFRP. I could also see a sf setting like 40k happen (if FTL spaceships every happen at all), knowing how shitty people treat each other. Maybe they wouldn't have the monsters and aliens, but they'd still have the repressive governments with most people living in squalor. (Most of the world does that now).

To put it another way, I think a world like WFRP is far more likely to happen than a world like the Forgotten Realms.

Quote from: misterguignol;501956Does Ravenloft count?

Ravenloft isn't really 100% grimdark, as there's no hope there - it's horror upon horror. In grimdark there's that tiny sliver of hope left.

I dunno - I love Warhammer FRP, but 1e, 2e was too...grimdark for me. I do like the setting of 40.000 though - they should stop making it serious while retaining all the old jokes though. One way or the other.

I think those settings are decent - I usually lower the level of "dark" when I take them, and raise the level of "grim". They're certainly good when you want to pit the heroes against impossible odds - so that fighting becomes the victory in itself, as real victory is probably impossible.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501958Ravenloft isn't really 100% grimdark, as there's no hope there - it's horror upon horror. In grimdark there's that tiny sliver of hope left.

This is why I'm asking: when people use the phrase "grimdark" I'm not sure I know exactly what they mean.

Quote from: misterguignol;501959This is why I'm asking: when people use the phrase "grimdark" I'm not sure I know exactly what they mean.

There's no official definition, but the term was probably made for Warhammer's world.

So what I believe is the most common understanding of it, and therefore a definition if only by means of positive one:

A dark world full of suffering and pain, where evil is powerful and good is oppressed and lacking in number, where draconic law are enforced for the actual good of the society, as weakness may lead to it's downfall. There's however a slim chance of defeating of evil, and if not of it's defeat - then at least at forever keeping it at bay.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501958Ravenloft isn't really 100% grimdark, as there's no hope there - it's horror upon horror. In grimdark there's that tiny sliver of hope left.

I dunno - I love Warhammer FRP, but 1e, 2e was too...grimdark for me. I do like the setting of 40.000 though - they should stop making it serious while retaining all the old jokes though. One way or the other.

I think those settings are decent - I usually lower the level of "dark" when I take them, and raise the level of "grim". They're certainly good when you want to pit the heroes against impossible odds - so that fighting becomes the victory in itself, as real victory is probably impossible.

There is some hope in Ravenloft.  It is not always gloom and doom there in the setting.  There are many bastions of faith that still hold strong against the dark powers.

In any case, Ravenloft is a damn fine setting.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;501962There is some hope in Ravenloft.  It is not always gloom and doom there in the setting.  There are many bastions of faith that still hold strong against the dark powers.

Yes, but there's no hope of ever defeating the evil, or even keeping it at bay - Dark Powers are supreme rulers.

Then again, Ravenloft's more about the suffering of evil and the inescapable corruption of everything, and constant trials of heroes for such corruption.

I'd argue that "grimdark" is a term specifically meant to apply to later 40K, and that it's basically meaningless outside of that.

40K is worth playing in as a setting for many reasons. It has an incredible, massive scope that allows you to do some spectacular things as PCs and DMs without making the setting unplayable. The moral wretchedness of the Imperium provides grist for interesting moral speculation, especially if you allow the PCs freedom of conscience instead of dictating that they are brainwashed drones. There are also many overlapping layers of weirdness and wonder that allow one to move from familiarity to strangeness and back again without requiring one to radically rework how the Imperium functions.

In general, I think playing 40K as serious-Paranoia with demons is the wrong way to go, but I also don't think the setting needs to be treated as a farce to work either.

Warhammer's Old World isn't nearly as bleak in the books as people who talk about it as wallowing in mud and desperation make it out to be--that's pretty much just what people on the Internet say about it.  There's plenty in the setting that makes it redeemable; in fact, most of the larger campaigns center around the idea that the world is worth fighting for.

Ravenloft is definitely similar in focus.  While each realm is ruled by an irredeemable monster, the land and the people can be freed from their rule by champions on the side of right.  In fact, because it is based on Gothic horror fiction the villains in Ravenloft are worth fighting against precisely because they represent the antithesis of Western culture (in most cases anyway).  For example, the theme of Falkovia is the struggle against fascism.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501968Yes, but there's no hope of ever defeating the evil, or even keeping it at bay - Dark Powers are supreme rulers.

That's actually incorrect.

Quote from: misterguignol;501972That's actually incorrect.

Really? Tell more - I thought that, for example, The Big Bad Vampire was actually immortal by the very nature of his curse - he can only be slain if the girl he loves actually loves him back, and since she never does...

Quote from: misterguignol;501971Warhammer's Old World isn't nearly as bleak in the books as people who talk about it as wallowing in mud and desperation make it out to be--that's pretty much just what people on the Internet say about it.  There's plenty in the setting that makes it redeemable; in fact, most of the larger campaigns center around the idea that the world is worth fighting for.

Pseudo has a point that grimdark was coined mostly for 40k, where even the Imperium are basically fascists, and the only good guys were Tau - and that was before forced sterilisation of dissenters and concentration camps were introduced.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501973Really? Tell more - I thought that, for example, The Big Bad Vampire was actually immortal by the very nature of his curse - he can only be slain if the girl he loves actually loves him back, and since she never does...

This is what the spell "Modify Memory" was invented to handle.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501968Yes, but there's no hope of ever defeating the evil, or even keeping it at bay - Dark Powers are supreme rulers.

Not true. In fact, several adventures are about defeating a Dark Lord. It's not easy, but it is doable by powerful parties.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501974This is what the spell "Modify Memory" was invented to handle.

I am pretty positive Dark Powers'd intervene at this point, if we're talking strict canon.

Quote from: danbuter;501976Not true. In fact, several adventures are about defeating a Dark Lord. It's not easy, but it is doable by powerful parties.

Defeating for good, or "just for now"?

Quote from: Rincewind1;501977I am pretty positive Dark Powers'd intervene at this point, if we're talking strict canon.

I don't know Ravenloft very well, but if there's just some dumb, arbitrary shit there to keep you from solving what is otherwise a trivial problem with magic, it's kind of shitty setting design.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501973Really? Tell more - I thought that, for example, The Big Bad Vampire was actually immortal by the very nature of his curse - he can only be slain if the girl he loves actually loves him back, and since she never does...

The thing about the Dark Powers is that they aren't well-defined because they are more or less a plot device.  It's hard to say anything definitive about them.  They are both the jailers of the Dark Lords (like Strahd), and thus responsible for much of the misery in Ravenloft, yet they also release champions of good from Ravenloft if they are deemed worthy through their actions.

As for being defeat-able, Vecna planned to destroy them.  Also, this is D&D...just about anything can be killed in D&D, even the gods.

Actually, it depends. I'm writing a "grimdark" setting of sorts, and it is entirely redeemable. The heroes can win, end the power of demons, and so on. It may take multiple heroes and a couple of campaigns, but it is possible. I am just leaving it to GM's to run that kind of thing--but I'll have strongly worded advice that yes, it is allowed.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501978I don't know Ravenloft very well, but if there's just some dumb, arbitrary shit there to keep you from solving what is otherwise a trivial problem with magic, it's kind of shitty setting design.

If she was not immune to mind magic*, she'd be forced by vampire's stare long ago to love him :P. Of course I'd probably let the players do that - just break the spell in the final encounter.

*when curse stuff's related at least, I guess.

Quote from: misterguignol;501979The thing about the Dark Powers is that they aren't well-defined because they are more or less a plot device.  It's hard to say anything definitive about them.  They are both the jailers of the Dark Lords (like Strahd), and thus responsible for much of the misery in Ravenloft, yet they also release champions of good from Ravenloft if they are deemed worthy through their actions.

As for being defeat-able, Vecna planned to destroy them.  Also, this is D&D...just about anything can be killed in D&D, even the gods.

I know about the jailers stuff, didn't know the latter. And true on D&D, but I dunno - I'm not some "canon hog", but killing DPs is a bit like killing Gods of Chaos in Warhammer - too much of a deal breaker.

Then again, if players pulled out enough epic shit...

Quote from: Rincewind1;501981If she was not immune to mind magic*, she'd be forced by vampire's stare long ago to love him :P. Of course I'd probably let the players do that - just break the spell in the final encounter.

*when curse stuff's related at least, I guess.

Make a love potion / give her a copy of Twilight.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501982Make a love potion / give her a copy of Twilight.

It won't work; Strahd is blue, not sparkly.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501982Make a love potion / give her a copy of Twilight.

I am pretty positive when Stephanie Meyer dies, she'll be sucked into Ravenloft as punishment for that novel - she will be trapped in a circle of death and rebirth, except that it'll be some random vampire who'll rather impale himself on a stake then have sex with her.

Since it'll be a vampire of Oscar Wilde.

Plus I am sure Strahd treats anyone who reads Twilight in his domain to slow death by ripping their innards and hanging people by them at the trees.

Ravenloft always struck me as being more Grimm than grim... more fairy tale and Universal Monster and Hammer Horror than bleak unremitting blackness.
When I think 'Grimdark' I think of GW's original Rogue Trader game... which was certainly grim and dark... but also had a big dose of (black) humor to it. WFRP's Old World setting is not nearly so bleak... but I think humor was also part of what made it distinct.
Anyway, if plenty of folks enjoy those settings and play games set in them that seems like all the 'redemption' they need... (but yeah, I prefer the older versions where the humor was still allowed).

It depends on what it is used for.

I have a GrimDark setting where an undead plague overtakes an entire world. The PCs, at best, can fight a holding action against the undead plague, but they cannot win. It is depressing as shit and not really that much of a fun place to stay

I use it so that Players can figure out ways to escape and try to preserve as much of the living as possible. That "lifeboat" then becomes the new game world in which the PCs help to create.

I don't find the appeal of gaming in GrimDark settings otherwise. The whole WH40K setting has no interest for me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;501954The settings that fall under the category of "grimdark": hopelessly oppressive, ridiculously militaristic usually, almost always full of cheap "visuals" full of nonsense comparable to the worst masturbation fantasies of certain types of comic book artists and heavy metal fans.

This thread is the chance for anyone who wants to try to argue that these settings have any redeeming qualities; are any of them actually worthwhile because of their value as settings? As comedy? As cautionary tales? Anything else?RPGPundit

No, I pretty much agree with you that grimdark should be left to the spotty, adolescent death metal fans it was conceived for.

As a UK gamer, I recognized that Games Workshop was going this way pretty early on, even whilst it was still an across-the-board retailer. Citadel miniatures were already starting to get that camp heavy metal look and we had the 'hilarious' Thrud the Barbarian comic strip to contend with in White Dwarf. I think that this contributed a great deal to my long personal hiatus from the hobby. I simply cannot stand the juvenile and, as you say, masturbatory vibe of it all.

Quote from: km10ftp;501988No, I pretty much agree with you that grimdark should be left to the spotty, adolescent death metal fans it was conceived for.

As a UK gamer, I recognized that Games Workshop was going this way pretty early on, even whilst it was still an across-the-board retailer. Citadel miniatures were already starting to get that camp heavy metal look and we had the 'hilarious' Thrud the Barbarian comic strip to contend with in White Dwarf. I think that this contributed a great deal to my long personal hiatus from the hobby. I simply cannot stand the juvenile and, as you say, masturbatory vibe of it all.

Bah. Thrud the Barbarian was awesome - I thought it was a Polish comic, as he was featured in Polish gaming magazine.

What do you know. Time for torrents, then!

Quote from: Rincewind1;501961There's no official definition, but the term was probably made for Warhammer's world.

Or by them. (Accidentally.)

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."

TV Tropes even notes that Darker and Edgier (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkerAndEdgier) is known as Grim Dark, because of 40K.

Are they redeemable?

Well, as someone noted it depends on what you mean by Grimdark. For me, Deadlands: Hell on Earth was passably cool until I got to reading some of the later supplements. Once I got into reading about Cyborgs and their nature and origin, I had 2 reactions.

1.) This is way too dark and depressing for me. I quit.
2.) Screw this world, they deserved to get the Reckoners stomping all over them.

My definition of grimdark: "ridiculously dark and hopeless, written with the deliberate intent to make the setting as depressing as possible and to induce feelings of despair in both players and characters."

Those worlds? Utterly irredeemable. Fit only for languishing forgotten on some game store's back shelf for all eternity.

A properly dark setting (The Final Empire from Sanderson's Mistborn novels) is great, possibly awesome. "Grimdark" = hopeless, and that's a bag of crap.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501968Yes, but there's no hope of ever defeating the evil, or even keeping it at bay - Dark Powers are supreme rulers.

Then again, Ravenloft's more about the suffering of evil and the inescapable corruption of everything, and constant trials of heroes for such corruption.

Of course, one of the interpretations of the Dark Powers is that they ARE keeping evil at bay already. It's one big giant prison for evil guys that capture their attention.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501981I know about the jailers stuff, didn't know the latter. And true on D&D, but I dunno - I'm not some "canon hog", but killing DPs is a bit like killing Gods of Chaos in Warhammer - too much of a deal breaker.

Then again, if players pulled out enough epic shit...

Canon 2nd Edition adventure involved precisely that: Killing a Dark Lord (Duke Gundar, I believe it was).

Hm. Coming to think of it Pseudo, that Memory Wipe idea? That's good. Let heroes do that.

Then when Strahd's dead...guess who just mind - raped a girl so he can kill some Big Baddie? So who's next in line for becoming a Prisoner/Lord of Castle Ravenloft?

^.^

Heck, this can be even a matter of party choosing which member must become new Strahd, so that the rest can go. Of course, they'll have double - hit to their morality, since they both helped to force a girl to love a monster, as well as abandoned their comrade.

Midnight I suppose is Grimdark but Psuedoephedrine I think has the right of it when it comes to RPGS. I suppose this thread is really a dig at certain 40K fans. Whathefuckever. I'll throw in UnKnown Armies and Kult. Both of which are extremely cool in their own ways.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;502001Midnight I suppose is Grimdark but Psuedoephedrine I think has the right of it when it comes to RPGS. I suppose this thread is really a dig at certain 40K fans. Whathefuckever. I'll throw in UnKnown Armies and Kult. Both of which are extremely cool in their own ways.

Regards,
David R

Right, I forgot about Midnight.

World of Myth is a bit grimdark too, though the Circle may be broken due to Alric and Soulblighter forcing the Circle.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501998Hm. Coming to think of it Pseudo, that Memory Wipe idea? That's good. Let heroes do that.

Then when Strahd's dead...guess who just mind - raped a girl so he can kill some Big Baddie? So who's next in line for becoming a Prisoner/Lord of Castle Ravenloft?

^.^

Heck, this can be even a matter of party choosing which member must become new Strahd, so that the rest can go. Of course, they'll have double - hit to their morality, since they both helped to force a girl to love a monster, as well as abandoned their comrade.

That'd be a pretty awesome way to handle it.

I think El Pundito asked a loaded question, and I'm not interested in "arguing" with anyone who wants to frame the debate like a wanker.

Quote from: David R;502001Midnight I suppose is Grimdark but Psuedoephedrine I think has the right of it when it comes to RPGS. I suppose this thread is really a dig at certain 40K fans. Whathefuckever. I'll throw in UnKnown Armies and Kult. Both of which are extremely cool in their own ways.

Regards,
David R

You know, UA and Kult aren't really grimdark - they are just dark. UA's the odd Modern Magic with a Dresden Files turned up to 11, while Kult's basically splatter horror with gnosticism thrown there, while grimdark's when it's really shitty world, but not exactly horror.

Plus, grimdark's usually comically dark and full of despair, and I'd not say that Kult has many elements of farce to it.

I assume that "grimdark" means "there is only war." As in the originating Warhammer 40K slogan: In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.
 
I like grimdark fiction in and of itself. It doesn't need to pay my bills, wash my socks, impart social wisdom or provide for the material needs of the Catholic Church. It just has to be an enjoyable story. Roleplaying game wise, a grimdark setting is a boon because it magicaly protagonizes any character or idology that is imported to the grimdark. (EDIT: protagonised in the sense that no matter what the character or ideology wants, they have to get it for themselves without appealing to the police, social wellfare agency, the kindness of strangers etc etc etc...)
 
Grimdarkness also sets the bar for heroism very very low. Batman is a vigilante in the real world, but set him against the grimdark of Gotham and suddenly he's a SUPERHERO! And likewise if I have a bunch of screwball PCs, I can throw them into a grimdark setting and voila! Everything they do is heroic by virtue of being a lesser evil than the grimdarkness.
 
I prefer grimdark to be about the grimdark itself. Orwell's 1984 is a good example of a book that examines the grimdark. I'd also hold up I have no mouth and I must scream as grimdark done right. I cant abide authors (or players) who leap to the conclusion that since they're heros in the grimdarkness, they're also heros in real life. Ann Rand's Anthem for example. (Edit: I also don't like the movies based on the wanky comic books Pundit aluded to.)

Quote from: RPGPundit;501954The settings that fall under the category of "grimdark": hopelessly oppressive, ridiculously militaristic usually, almost always full of cheap "visuals" full of nonsense comparable to the worst masturbation fantasies of certain types of comic book artists and heavy metal fans.

This thread is the chance for anyone who wants to try to argue that these settings have any redeeming qualities; are any of them actually worthwhile because of their value as settings? As comedy? As cautionary tales? Anything else?

And if so, what makes those different from the vast majority of ridiculously vapid Grimdark settings?

I dislike settings like Warhammer and stories that romanticize it. I can see grimdark situations happening for a limited time and for specific reasons but as a general condition I find it uninteresting because how of unrealistically it treats the human spirit.

Some specific comments on some of the things talked about in the thread.

Midnight - Midnight is probably one of the better dark settings out there. Mainly because the setting is a logical outgrowth of the premise not because all things human are dark, tragic, and grimy. Life sucks in Midnight because of a uber powerful being winning the fight. I admit I never understood how the other gods in Midnight were able to be checked by the big evil god that was exiled.

Ravenloft - Ravenloft is more of mythic setting. It like a bunch of dark fey realms rather an world like Oerth and others. Evil and good are more iconic in Ravenloft. And while TSR went overboard with the product line, my impression that it stayed pretty close to it's mythic roots and had some interesting stuff in it.  This in contrast to World of Darkness which was written as the "real" world and it's bleak worldview made it unappealing.

Warhammer - I find warhammer (both game settings) to be utterly uninteresting.

I guess part of my dislike of Grimdark is because I am a history buff and read a lot of biographies of people. There are bad moments in history but good moments as well. It not just a long and bleak litany of human woes in life in the mud and grime. And I just have trouble buying stuff that try to make an entire setting like that without some good reason.

In the settings I create I try to keep a mix of good, neutral, and evil. With plausible reason for things existing the way they do. I find that more interesting because it generates a greater variety of conflict which leads to a greater variety of adventures.

By the way, I'd say that after Storm of Swords, Song of Ice and Fire went borderline grimdark, since the rules of the universe just got from "realistic" to DARK AS SHIT.

Except of course two main luvvies of Martin, Jon Snow & Failnerys.

Quote from: estar;502020Midnight - Midnight is probably one of the better dark settings out there. Mainly because the setting is a logical outgrowth of the premise not because all things human are dark, tragic, and grimy. Life sucks in Midnight because of a uber powerful being winning the fight. I admit I never understood how the other gods in Midnight were able to be checked by the big evil god that was exiled.

The world of Midnight is meant to be a prison for Izrador, with the various species like elves, dwarves, humans, etc. established at least partly to prevent Izrador from doing exactly what he's doing (sending lesser minions like Orcs to build temples that suck the world dry of magic and life to allow his escape). The other gods don't live in the prison, and one of the purposes of the prison is to prevent divine magic from leaking in or out.

That sounds awesome! Midnight is one of those settings I always looked at, but never bought. Too many other settings that I liked more were being published. The 00's really were a new Golden Age for fantasy settings.

Quote from: Rincewind1;502008You know, UA and Kult aren't really grimdark - they are just dark. UA's the odd Modern Magic with a Dresden Files turned up to 11, while Kult's basically splatter horror with gnosticism thrown there, while grimdark's when it's really shitty world, but not exactly horror.

Plus, grimdark's usually comically dark and full of despair, and I'd not say that Kult has many elements of farce to it.

Those two games are specifically how I learned that no game can write itself dark and scary. I have run some very successfully scary scenarios with both, but more commonly, the scenarios are hilarious. I play with a bunch of pretty funny people, and they're generally inclined to go there. The grimdarker I am, the funnier they are. That's generally to our mutual satisfaction.

My flgs has a huge WH40K following, so Dark Heresy games are doubly riotous, quickly.

IME, a good scary game depends on underplaying the details, to give players less to rebel against. The more over-the-top a game's world, the more ripe for comedy.

Quote from: estar;502020I guess part of my dislike of Grimdark is because I am a history buff and read a lot of biographies of people. There are bad moments in history but good moments as well. It not just a long and bleak litany of human woes in life in the mud and grime. And I just have trouble buying stuff that try to make an entire setting like that without some good reason.

In the settings I create I try to keep a mix of good, neutral, and evil. With plausible reason for things existing the way they do. I find that more interesting because it generates a greater variety of conflict which leads to a greater variety of adventures.

I am not a history buff, but I do research the historical events that lead up to tyrannies and try to incorporate them into my settings because that makes them more realistic and helps immersion. Now that sounds stupid when you consider fantasy (which tends to turn everything up to 11), but making sure that the setting is internally consistant is important in my games. If the setting is implausible, then there is less chance for me to really involve my Players in it.

Re: Midnight.

What ever happened with that? Sudden cancellation of every single product, including PDF sales? Such a whole-line massacre seems unusual, especially when PDF's, once uploaded to DTRPG, are essentially cost-free.

(That is, they'd already paid for writers, artists, editors, layout, and were selling the PDF's, so there was no financial incentive to stop selling those.)

Anyone have any idea? Something to do with 4e, perhaps?

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;502041Re: Midnight.

What ever happened with that? Sudden cancellation of every single product, including PDF sales? Such a whole-line massacre seems unusual, especially when PDF's, once uploaded to DTRPG, are essentially cost-free.

(That is, they'd already paid for writers, artists, editors, layout, and were selling the PDF's, so there was no financial incentive to stop selling those.)

Anyone have any idea? Something to do with 4e, perhaps?

I think it got GSLed. The GSL was revised in March 2009, sales of the 3.5 line were terminated in April 2009, and the movie, complete with a 4e adventure set in Midnight for people who buy the DVD, came out in July 2009.

Midnight got zapped by FFG when they went mostly boardgames. The end of 3.5 also killed it.

The one thing that makes a good horror game is players that want to be scared. You know them. The ones that really got into camp fire stories. Hmong techniques are nice but 90% of it is the players.

Quote from: danbuter;502056Midnight got zapped by FFG when they went mostly boardgames. The end of 3.5 also killed it.

I have all of the Midnight books and supplements that were released and I really enjoy that setting.  It is sad it went the way of the Dodo...

Quote from: Cranewings;502074The one thing that makes a good horror game is players that want to be scared. You know them. The ones that really got into camp fire stories. Hmong techniques are nice but 90% of it is the players.

I am in total agreement of your thinking on horror games.  It was difficult to get the players to feel that way playing CHILL, but when it came to Call of Cthulhu, that was a whole different story.

Quote from: Rincewind1;502008You know, UA and Kult aren't really grimdark - they are just dark. UA's the odd Modern Magic with a Dresden Files turned up to 11, while Kult's basically splatter horror with gnosticism thrown there, while grimdark's when it's really shitty world, but not exactly horror.

*shrug* they seem pretty grim and dark to me. I would argue with your definition but what the OP really wants is to piss on the 40K lads.

Regards,
David R

Maybe now that the storygamers are largely irrelevant, Pundit needs a new enemy.

I love Warhammer and 40k - easily my favorite published settings. I don't need them to be "redeemable" to enjoy them.

As for grimdark, I enjoy those settings because Batman is more interesting than Superman. It's very easy to be a good guy in Forgotten Realms, but its a tough road in Midnight.

And grimdark isn't new. Nothing is more grimdark than CoC or Stormbringer. The end of the world is well known to Stormbringer fans and if you are playing during the time of Elric, your PC won't have much of a future regardless their deeds.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;502014And likewise if I have a bunch of screwball PCs, I can throw them into a grimdark setting and voila! Everything they do is heroic by virtue of being a lesser evil than the grimdarkness.

This is why I love Dark Heresy. The PCs are fighting for a better tomorrow, trying to hold back the darkness long enough for humanity to evolve. There is a bright light, but it may not come for 10,000 more years and unless the PCs do their job, the light of the Emperor could be extinguished in their own lifetime.

Quote from: Cranewings;502074The one thing that makes a good horror game is players that want to be scared. You know them. The ones that really got into camp fire stories. Hmong techniques are nice but 90% of it is the players.

Absolutely. Horror games only work with players who want to be scared. Horror RPGs require a much higher willingness to suspend disbelief than immersion in other RPGs. And suspension of disbelief is a choice.

BTW, what are Hmong techniques?

Hmong = horror. I can't type on an iPod.

Is Nightbane grim dark? I've run horror one shots with D&D but the only two systems I've run successful horror campaigns with is my homebrew and Nightbane.

Quote from: Cranewings;502130Is Nightbane grim dark?

Depends how you run it. I view it akin to Ravenloft or Midnight or Systems Failure. Evil rules the world, but you are a badass hero that the Evil fears and there exists a glimmer of hope of defeating it.

Mechanoids: Invasion is probably grimdark. You are stuck on a world being chopped up (literally) by psionic cyborgs who do vivisections on people for entertainment and your best hope is lasting long enough to somehow sneak aboard the Mechanoid ship and hide out for a few generations.

Dead Reign, or any other Zombie Apocalypse setting is also probably grimdark if the zombies don't rot. That's why I liked the 28 Days / Weeks option of just surviving long enough for the infected to die.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;501996Canon 2nd Edition adventure involved precisely that: Killing a Dark Lord (Duke Gundar, I believe it was).

Darklords and Dark Powers are two completely different things. For one easy way to tell the difference, DPs don't officially have names, appearances or discernible motivations, let alone stats.

("Are the Dark Powers good or evil? Are they gods or monsters? What is the ultimate goal of their grand and awful experiment? The truth may transcend mortal comprehension." --from the Ravenloft 3e core, page 11.)

Quote from: David R;502089*shrug* they seem pretty grim and dark to me. I would argue with your definition but what the OP really wants is to piss on the 40K lads.

Regards,
David R

I noticed that, though I think nobody cared ;). I think we should distinct between grimdark and Horror settings for RPGs. Maybe UA armies can be considered Grimdark, I don't know them that well, but Kult is (splatter)horror, clearly. Grimdark is a setting that's scary but does not go into horror, basically , for me.

Quote from: stu2000;502032Those two games are specifically how I learned that no game can write itself dark and scary. I have run some very successfully scary scenarios with both, but more commonly, the scenarios are hilarious. I play with a bunch of pretty funny people, and they're generally inclined to go there. The grimdarker I am, the funnier they are. That's generally to our mutual satisfaction.

My flgs has a huge WH40K following, so Dark Heresy games are doubly riotous, quickly.

IME, a good scary game depends on underplaying the details, to give players less to rebel against. The more over-the-top a game's world, the more ripe for comedy.

Quote from: Cranewings;502074The one thing that makes a good horror game is players that want to be scared. You know them. The ones that really got into camp fire stories. Hmong techniques are nice but 90% of it is the players.

Good GM, and decent players, and GM will need to resort to all tricks he has up his sleeve. I sometimes manage to scare my CoC players, or at least make them tense. Maybe I should perhaps write a bit of a guide - don't want to sound too bastardly here, but GMing CoC since I was 14 I think I know something about it. I usually run pretty Purist games too, so I mostly scare with narration rather then mechanics.

To be honest, there's one sad truth if you try to run a horror game - ban the players who you know will just joke it out. By joking out I don't mean that all must be serious, but one joke in the wrong moment and bam - whole mood's gone.

Quote from: GrimGent;502182Darklords and Dark Powers are two completely different things. For one easy way to tell the difference, DPs don't officially have names, appearances or discernible motivations, let alone stats.

("Are the Dark Powers good or evil? Are they gods or monsters? What is the ultimate goal of their grand and awful experiment? The truth may transcend mortal comprehension." --from the Ravenloft 3e core, page 11.)

Indeed. I'd say that slaying Dark Powers'd be a bit off - limit (or at least'd require a veeeeery epic campaign), since they are Lady of Pain powerful.

Then again, can always slay the Dark Powers and force players to replace them, for Balance Must Be Achieved.

Dammit guys, this thread really makes me want to run Ravenloft, with it's whole "No victory can be complete" theme.

I never have issues with scaring people in CoC games. Then again, the characters are likely to go insane or get killed. If the players are trying to stay alive and sane, they get worried about silly stuff that won't even affect them. Then, after they breathe a sigh of relief, I drop the hammer.

Quote from: RPGPundit;501954This thread is the chance for anyone who wants to try to argue that these settings have any redeeming qualities; are any of them actually worthwhile because of their value as settings? As comedy? As cautionary tales? Anything else?

And if so, what makes those different from the vast majority of ridiculously vapid Grimdark settings?

RPGPundit

Why would I want to argue? You've already made your mind in the most ridiculous terms. Any attempt to egnage with such a close minded bigot would be pissing in the wind. Have a nice day.

Quote from: Rincewind1;502342Dammit guys, this thread really makes me want to run Ravenloft, with it's whole "No victory can be complete" theme.

I'm toying with setting up a Ravenloft sandbox campaign this year using the LotFP rules.  I've started writing up brief descriptions of the domains for new players.

Regarding the original question: it depends on the definition. If the utter inevitability of Ragnarök makes Norse mythology grimdark, then the answer is yes, because that stuff is awesome.

I'm not saying it's necessarily the case, just pointing out if.

Quote from: misterguignol;502368I'm toying with setting up a Ravenloft sandbox campaign this year using the LotFP rules.  I've started writing up brief descriptions of the domains for new players.

Start a thread in Design forums if you feel like putting notes? I'd be more then glad to mindstorm a bit if you'd wish my humble help, as well as stealing the hell from you - Ravenloft is my favourite setting of DnD (And FR as well...hey, bug off, I started my adventure with RPGs at Baldur's Gate :P)

Any universe that does not exist forever is grimdark - after all, no matter what you do, where, or to whom, in the end it all crumbles to dust/implodes/becomes frothy cherry nougat which the gods enjoy with a nice adult beverage.

Srsly - in the end, nothing matters...

QQ

Quote from: Rincewind1;502342I noticed that, though I think nobody cared ;). I think we should distinct between grimdark and Horror settings for RPGs. Maybe UA armies can be considered Grimdark, I don't know them that well, but Kult is (splatter)horror, clearly. Grimdark is a setting that's scary but does not go into horror, basically , for me.

I don't really think that horror should be excluded at least when it comes to RPGs. Whenever I think of GrimDark (not in the 40K sense) I think of material along the lines of Se7en and the original Vanishing (Spoorloos). If an RPG mimics the tone or inspires such a tone, then I think it's swimming in Grimdark territory. I'd go so far as to say, that it's easier to reach such a place using horror or elements of the horror genre.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;502453I don't really think that horror should be excluded at least when it comes to RPGs. Whenever I think of GrimDark (not in the 40K sense) I think of material along the lines of Se7en and the original Vanishing (Spoorloos). If an RPG mimics the tone or inspires such a tone, then I think it's swimming in Grimdark territory. I'd go so far as to say, that it's easier to reach such a place using horror or elements of the horror genre.

Regards,
David R

That's quite a tough stance on horror RPGs, David. Grimdark has generally a rather negative connotation, though of course, there's no true definition of it - perhaps'd you care to repeat yours, if I had omitted it?

Any setting is redeemable if played ironically!

Quote from: Ian Warner;502465Any setting is redeemable if played ironically!

This approach killed Warhammer.

Quote from: Rincewind1;502462That's quite a tough stance on horror RPGs, David. Grimdark has generally a rather negative connotation, though of course, there's no true definition of it - perhaps'd you care to repeat yours, if I had omitted it?

Well it's not really a tough stance on horror because I don't think that the "negative" connotations of GrimDark neccesarily means that such games are unplayable or not fun. I don't really have a firm definition but taking a cue from other kinds of media I would say that wallowing in a nihilistic pose, engaging in lurid subject matter or just generally presenting a setting where the participation of the PCs generally does little to affect the overall nature of the setting. Understand now, that my definition has really got nothing to do with this thread but since you asked.....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;502495Well it's not really a tough stance on horror because I don't think that the "negative" connotations of GrimDark neccesarily means that such games are unplayable or not fun. I don't really have a firm definition but taking a cue from other kinds of media I would say that wallowing in a nihilistic pose, engaging in lurid subject matter or just generally presenting a setting where the participation of the PCs generally does little to affect the overall nature of the setting. Understand now, that my definition has really got nothing to do with this thread but since you asked.....

Regards,
David R

Hey, every opinion matters, and the OP was just a not - so -subtle stab at Warhammer, so it's just as much on the topic as any other post, because there's no definite definition (tautology, I know, but bear with me) of "grimdark".

I'd personally say that what you described fits more for a setting that's tragedy then grimdark, as grimdark has a connotation of farce and hyperboles being a very strong element of it.

In fact, I'd say that someone should make RPG based on an idea of a Greek Tragedy and Nemesis.

Nemesis as in the concept of fate being impossible to defeat, not Nemesis the RPG ;).

Quote from: Rincewind1;502496.... as grimdark has a connotation of farce and hyperboles being a very strong element of it.

Oh yes, there is that but I have found that in those games which I consider GrimDark (and I'm including some of the games run by friends) all of them have numerous moments of levity.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;502500Oh yes, there is that but I have found that in those games which I consider GrimDark (and I'm including some of the games run by friends) all of them have numerous moments of levity.

Regards,
David R

Understandable. I am not myself against levity during a horror game session, in fact, I use it just as another tool of spreading fear to the players - everything's fine and relaxed, then suddenly, I shut it down.

I am just against putting Kult and UA in Grimdark shelf, as I find Grimdark to be a bit of pejorative term.

Quote from: Rincewind1;502501I am just against putting Kult and UA in Grimdark shelf, as I find Grimdark to be a bit of pejorative term.

Fair enough.

Regards,
David R

So, what the hell is grimdark anyway? Has anyone cleared it up by now? Is it just perpetual "Life is misery and drudgery and then you die," or is it less immediately experiential and more directly tied to setting cosmology? Because role playing something like during the Black Plague of the Middle Age could be grimdark and qualify for both aspects (being such a physical and spiritual crisis of the times).

Define this stuff already.

Quote from: Opaopajr;502513So, what the hell is grimdark anyway? Has anyone cleared it up by now? Is it just perpetual "Life is misery and drudgery and then you die," or is it less immediately experiential and more directly tied to setting cosmology? Because role playing something like during the Black Plague of the Middle Age could be grimdark and qualify for both aspects (being such a physical and spiritual crisis of the times).

Define this stuff already.

To me, Grimdark is dark fantasy with added farce and hyperbole.

Quote from: Rincewind1;502514To me, Grimdark is dark fantasy with added farce and hyperbole.

That works for me... except maybe I don't think it HAS to be fantasy (I've played in Cyberpunk games that I'd consider Grimdark). I don't see it as a pejorative term either... though some folks use it that way.

Quote from: Opaopajr;502513So, what the hell is grimdark anyway?

Grimdark: Ridiculously dark and hopeless, as if written with the deliberate intent to make the setting as depressing as possible. Seems intended to induce feelings of despair in both players and characters.

Apart from WH40K, for which I don't care, it's still unclear what would qualify as grimdark. Could Wraith: the Oblivion be considered grimdark? And how about Unhallowed Metropolis?

This is Grimdark (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Grimdark)
This is 40k on Grimdark (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000)
You'll never get a better description about what 40k is then this.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;502539Apart from WH40K, for which I don't care, it's still unclear what would qualify as grimdark. Could Wraith: the Oblivion be considered grimdark? And how about Unhallowed Metropolis?

I would say the ultra-dark horror games, like Kult, Nephilim, or Unknown Armies.
The Biblical end times games like Rapture or The End.
Or the 40KRPG products.

I can't think of many games that didn't have a shred or hope in them
Then, of course, I think the absence of hope is an invitation to produce levity.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;502085I have all of the Midnight books and supplements that were released and I really enjoy that setting.  It is sad it went the way of the Dodo...

In complete agreement. My single favorite thing to come out of the 3/.5 era. And, like you, I thankfully own everything.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;502539Apart from WH40K, for which I don't care, it's still unclear what would qualify as grimdark. Could Wraith: the Oblivion be considered grimdark? And how about Unhallowed Metropolis?

From CRKrueger's link:
 

QuoteCommon grimdark themes include:

• Massive, overbearing empires; e.g. "Big Brother is watching you" (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Paranoia).
  
• Constant, never ever-ending warfare.
• (jokes that cloud the issue, but that I liked)

Wraith, Unhallowed Metropolis, and the RL Black plague don't have Big Brother watching you by default. But it would be very easy to say, take the RL Black Plague and turn the Church into a big brother and then the setting would be very grimdark -- perhaps even indistinguishable from 40k. ;)
 
I don't remember enough about Wraith to suggest a suitable Big Brother candidate, but you get the idea.
Big Brother + stomping on a human face forever = grimdark.

Quote from: CRKrueger;502576This is Grimdark (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Grimdark)
This is 40k on Grimdark (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000)
You'll never get a better description about what 40k is then this.

1D4chan.org reminds me why I love Warhammer. I guess the most redeemable feature of Grimdark is how much freaking fun I have with the settings.

Grimdark is particularly awesome for one shot adventures. When the game ends in 4 hours, players can take their PCs to the hilt and go gonzo with the crazy that befits the setting.

I've run Warhammer Fantasy campaigns, but the high mortality rate kept the game dangerous and never lapsing into farce. Plus, the situation in WFRP isn't as dire as 40k...unless the rumors about the Skaven are true.

I think Wraith would nicely fall into my personal def of GrimDark. Esp with the Shadow character in play.

Regards,
David R

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Brighthammer_40,000_(2nd_edition)

I think I prefer this more then the original.

Quote from: GrimGent;502182Darklords and Dark Powers are two completely different things. For one easy way to tell the difference, DPs don't officially have names, appearances or discernible motivations, let alone stats.

("Are the Dark Powers good or evil? Are they gods or monsters? What is the ultimate goal of their grand and awful experiment? The truth may transcend mortal comprehension." --from the Ravenloft 3e core, page 11.)

Sorry, I misread the post I had quoted and thought the poster had said killing Dark LORDS was a step too far. My mistake.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;503172Sorry, I misread the post I had quoted and thought the poster had said killing Dark LORDS was a step too far. My mistake.

I said that, but was corrected, and indeed admitted that slaying a DL can really be only the iceberg of party's problems.

I'm running out of popcorn waiting for Pundit to tell us how people who enjoy or  play in these settings are brain-damaged. ;)

Quote from: kregmosier;503177I'm running out of popcorn waiting for Pundit to tell us how people who enjoy or  play in these settings are brain-damaged. ;)

I fully admit that I don't enjoy playing 40k with people who don't paint their armies. I'm not cool with it and yes, I know that's lame. And what's worse is that I buy my stuff already painted.

So I totally admit to being insane in the membrane.

Quote from: Spinachcat;503303I fully admit that I don't enjoy playing 40k with people who don't paint their armies. I'm not cool with it and yes, I know that's lame. And what's worse is that I buy my stuff already painted.

So I totally admit to being insane in the membrane.

You buy painted armies???   That is LAME.  

But I agree though, I will NOT play with people who play with unpainted armies.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;503328You buy painted armies???   That is LAME.  

But I agree though, I will NOT play with people who play with unpainted armies.

Then, sir, you concede?

Want to know what "grimdark" means?

Try "Crapsack World (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld)" from TV Tropes.

"A Crapsack World is a horrible place where the pessimistic notion of 'anything that can go wrong will go horribly wrong' almost always applies, and it corrupts its inhabitants into perpetuating that nastiness against each other. More succinctly, trying to survive in one of these places is gonna suck."

"t is usually dark and on the cynical end of the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism, so it will have either Grey and Gray Morality or Black and Grey Morality, if not outright Evil Versus Evil in the worst of cases (beware of Darkness Induced Audience Apathy if you decide to go this route though)."

"Settings like these are not kind at all to idealists, who usually get traumatized and/or die horribly when their attempts to change the world through idealistic means meet up with cold hard reality."

Source: TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld)

More elaboration, as well as many suggestions for which settings qualify, at the site.

Some examples:

"Basin City a.k.a. Sin City is one of the darker examples of a Crapsack World. It's a crime-ridden hellhole where vicious gangsters rule the streets and scum prey on the innocent, the police range from incompetent to outright corrupt (they even have a death squad to deal with those who get too close to the real bastards behind it all), and even the heroes of the setting tend to be ruthless sociopaths."

For Rincewind: "Polish RPG Neuroshima introduces postapocalyptic USA in which most of cities are destroyed, earth, air and water are polluted, north has been taken over by Moloch - giagantic inteligent machine that is slowly expanding and turns humans into mad cyborgs or mutants, south was taken over by Neojungle, full of monstrous beasts, there are bands of humans rampaging through the world as well as strange tornados, that are sources of strong narcotic and economics returned to pre-money times. There are four "colors" on which you can play that mostly determine which way of Dying Like Animals is dominant among people."

And, of course, Warhammer: "Warhammer (Warhammer Fantasy Battles, WHB) is an archetypal Crapsack World - a world doomed to perish into Chaos and its minions, themselves Eldritch Abominations. The world is grim and dark, inhabited by uncaring Lizardmen, haughty and snobbish High Elves, insanely bloodlusty Dark Elves, sullen and autistic Wood Elves, nasty, brutish and violent humans who come in a variety of flavours: Bretonnians, Empire or just about any other kind of evil Human you can imagine, cannibal Halflings, grudgy, implacable and fatalistic Dwarves, boorish Goblins, bullyish Orcs, bloodthirsty and wildly breeding Skaven ratmen, two types of Undead (Tomb Kings consisting of mummies, skeletons and zombies) and Vampire Counts (your local Dracula settings), and, of course, the insane Chaos. Of course, a Crapsack World requires to be ruled by Jerkass Gods - all the deities of the Warhammer worlds reflect the half-emptiness of the world itself."

Other examples for nearly every other type of media can be found. Enjoy.

So it's a misery sundae with a cherry of hopelessness on top. That's a rough row to plow though, because everyone has their satiety limits before they slip into full blown apathy. Could be fun but you'd need some really dedicated players who can travel as darkly cynical as the setting, a misery meter to tell when players are getting almost full, and a release valve to flush away the excess crap to make way for new colors of crap.

Fun, but in a forbidden adult guilty pleasure sort of way. Now if grimdark is closely related to crapsack world, does that mean we can call playing grimdark ttrpgs "brownbagging"? =)

Oh I know all about Neuroshima, mate - barely a mainstream Polish RPG that skipped my notice. It has a good enough world, but it's mechanics are SHIT.

Especially combat, which is the worst chapter about it I ever, ever read.

THe good thing is that the RPG spawned some really neat board game.

Quote from: Opaopajr;503506So it's a misery sundae with a cherry of hopelessness on top. That's a rough row to plow though, because everyone has their satiety limits before they slip into full blown apathy.

It should also be noted that RPG's are about setting, with "on-screen" action only really happening at the table (to a lesser extent, in metaplots or fiction.)

TV Tropes is focusing on works of fiction (though tabletop games are well represented). In those, it's the author forcing it to be a crapsack world, by having the hero fail or whatever. (See The Mist. This is often mistaken for "deep" or "challenging".)

In RPG's the players and DM control the action, so he can take the crappiest of crapsack worlds and, as other posters noted, play it as satire or whatever. In other words, you aren't forced of necessity to make it always turn out for the worst.

The background can assume that, the GM advice can tell you to do that, but you can ignore them both and have glorious fun tooling about a post-apocalyptic hellhole, dicing mutants and running over gangers. (Screw you, Apocaplypse World.)

It's all in the play, for RPG's. Does that mean they can be redeemed?

Sure, I guess, if you're willing to put in the work. Up to you, really.

Perhaps it is just me, but I find that, the darker the setting, the more fun I have playing a hero in it.
It is incredibly satisfying to say "fuck the odds, we do the right thing anyway".
For me, that satisfaction only increases as the odds against my character rise. At least that is my experience so far.

Actually, reading through this thread it leads me to really wonder if there is any setting aside from WH40K that actually meets the definition of "Grimdark"...

RPGPundit

Perhaps the question should have been "is WH40K at all redeemable?"

Quote from: RPGPundit;504292Actually, reading through this thread it leads me to really wonder if there is any setting aside from WH40K that actually meets the definition of "Grimdark"...

RPGPundit

Not really.  Any other setting that might come close will probably be disqualified simply because it probably is consistent and has a point.  40k has been cobbled together over 20years of influences of British Gonzo Sci-Fi, irreverent religious parody, the Rule of Cool where art and minis writes the fluff and anything and everything can be retconned depending upon who is writing the edition.

The thing the 40k fanbois never really got was that 40k is really like Traveller without an OTU, only MTU's.  There is no coherent setting, only a mountain of trappings meant to serve as a wargame backdrop.

So to answer the question, is 40k redeemable?  Sure, assuming you don't try to declare everything canon and realize you have to interpret your own 40k setting.

It occurs to me that the "redeem-ability" of a setting might be a bit like the notion of "story" in rpgs: it's something that emerges, rather than being built it.

What I mean is that a setting is redeemable only insomuch as the characters take action to redeem it.  

Certainly, the characters have the deck stacked against them in grimdark settings, but it's a real failure of the imagination (similar to following a pre-set story) to not have the setting's level of grimdarkness altered by a character's actions in the setting.

Poor Halloween Jack is too frightened of us over here, so he decided to complain about our "Modify Memory" discussion over on grognards.txt. That makes four or five times now I've been quoted there. As far as I can tell from a partial read, only Pundit has been quoted more often (though to be fair, many quotes lack attribution).

Jack, of course, doesn't have a very good imagination, so he thinks that Modify Memory means "rape" (he is, of course, complaining about rape on a board that filters the term to "surprise sex" so that he can clearly show how concerned he is about it). Presumably this is because he imagines that love = sex, or that curses have a proximity trigger of about ten feet, or that the magic is contained in the woman's vagina and that therefore Strahd's curse will only be shorted out when his penis is inserted into her magical vaginal terminal.

Dummy, you can do it anywhere, leave the girl there for the half-hour while you port over to kill Strahd, then restore her memories when you get back. L2P.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;504495(he is, of course, complaining about rape on a board that filters the term to "surprise sex" so that he can clearly show how concerned he is about it).

I've always wondered: do the knobs who post there have to pay extra to see actual curse words?

Quote from: misterguignol;504499I've always wondered: do the knobs who post there have to pay extra to see actual curse words?

The wrong response is to get angry at them mate. Just mock 'em and hope that the good ones end up over here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;504292Actually, reading through this thread it leads me to really wonder if there is any setting aside from WH40K that actually meets the definition of "Grimdark"...

RPGPundit

We get it, you don't like 40k. Next?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;504505The wrong response is to get angry at them mate. Just mock 'em and hope that the good ones end up over here.

Oh, I'm not angry...it's a genuine question!

My research confirms that vaginas are magical.

Quote from: Aos;504514My research confirms that vaginas are magical.

Well, if an archaeologist says it, it must be true. :D

Quote from: misterguignol;504513Oh, I'm not angry...it's a genuine question!

I don't actually know, though I'm occasionally tempted to pay the $10 bucks so I can address my fan club directly.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;504517I don't actually know, though I'm occasionally tempted to pay the $10 bucks so I can address my fan club directly.

Crowdsource the fee. It would be just as funny to watch people send money in to a Kickstarter Project allowing you to post to Something Awful as the posts would be.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;504517I don't actually know, though I'm occasionally tempted to pay the $10 bucks so I can address my fan club directly.

I need to troll harder so that I can be a part of it all.

Quote from: Aos;504528I need to troll harder so that I can be a part of it all.

PROTIP: You should have a meltdown about how if 5e doesn't bring back alignment languages it isn't really an rpg.

Quote from: misterguignol;504529PROTIP: You should have a meltdown about how if 5e doesn't bring back alignment languages it isn't really an rpg.

It is a TRUE and INCONTROVERTIBLE fact that the following real world languages correspond to the following alignment languages.

Lawful Good: German
Lawful Neutral: Japanese
Lawful Evil: Hebrew

Neutral Good: Cherokee
Neutral: Ebonics
Neutral Evil: Mexican

Chaotic Good: American
Chaotic Neutral: Mandarin
Chaotic Evil: Arabic

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;504533It is a TRUE and INCONTROVERTIBLE fact that the following real world languages correspond to the following alignment languages.

Lawful Good: German
Lawful Neutral: Japanese
Lawful Evil: Hebrew

Neutral Good: Cherokee
Neutral: Ebonics
Neutral Evil: Mexican

Chaotic Good: American
Chaotic Neutral: Mandarin
Chaotic Evil: Arabic

Stop it, you're killing me here.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;504533Neutral Evil: Mexican

Solid gold.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;504495Poor Halloween Jack is too frightened of us over here, so he decided to complain about our "Modify Memory" discussion over on grognards.txt. That makes four or five times now I've been quoted there. As far as I can tell from a partial read, only Pundit has been quoted more often (though to be fair, many quotes lack attribution).

Jack, of course, doesn't have a very good imagination, so he thinks that Modify Memory means "rape" (he is, of course, complaining about rape on a board that filters the term to "surprise sex" so that he can clearly show how concerned he is about it). Presumably this is because he imagines that love = sex, or that curses have a proximity trigger of about ten feet, or that the magic is contained in the woman's vagina and that therefore Strahd's curse will only be shorted out when his penis is inserted into her magical vaginal terminal.

Dummy, you can do it anywhere, leave the girl there for the half-hour while you port over to kill Strahd, then restore her memories when you get back. L2P.

Pft, I am pretty positive that I was quoted AT LEAST THREE TIMES (read this as "Totally jelly of Pseudo's 5 times*). Besides we all know that all heterosexual sex is rape. Or at least some feminist in Sweden said so, so it must be true. So HJ was just another SA cunt? Shame.
Also - Hebrew as LE?

Do not post in this thread again.

Back on topic though (srsly Psedo, you are picking up Pundy's lashing out as you as serious stuff, that you derail the threads so much? ;) ).

I thought that "redeemable" meant "playable" rather then as if to redeem the setting from being Grimdark.

Well, if you take it by canon, 40k is pretty much doomed - even if Chaos Gods are defeated, it'll mean doom for humanity, as interstellar travel'd be impossible.

If you don't take it by canon, then - hell yeah!


*We should make a contest to see who scores the most hits.


Edit: Oh, I also see that our friend Halabaloney Liar forgot to add that for example, I'd probably "punish" the players for their wicked actions of forcing the girl to love the vampire, by making them the new Dark Lords. Oh, selective quote, you bitch. Always willing to spread your legs for any Internet liar in need of quick fix.

Hey! Guys at grognards.txt!

If you mock pseudoephedrine, you do so rightly! He is a blathering blatherer and prolix to boot. Pompous even and self-contradictory.

In fact, he is what I would call concerned douche: has developed some reflection to the level that he knows he makes impressions upon other people via his views and views on his views. And then he stays at douche level, meaning: He uses his powers of reflection to try to look thoughtful in the eyes of others.

We laugh at him here too!

Quote from: Settembrini;504612Hey! Guys at grognards.txt!

If you mock pseudoephedrine, you do so rightly! He is a blathering blatherer and prolix to boot. Pompous even and self-contradictory.

In fact, he is what I would call concerned douche: has developed some reflection to the level that he knows he makes impressions upon other people via his views and views on his views. And then he stays at douche level, meaning: He uses his powers of reflection to try to look thoughtful in the eyes of others.

We laugh at him here too!

You can always pay 10$ and deliver the news yourself.

Additionally you will receive the following gifts!

- Free internet random strangers friendship.
- Erm....

I guess that's it!

Quote from: Settembrini;504612Hey! Guys at grognards.txt!

If you mock pseudoephedrine, you do so rightly! He is a blathering blatherer and prolix to boot. Pompous even and self-contradictory.

In fact, he is what I would call concerned douche: has developed some reflection to the level that he knows he makes impressions upon other people via his views and views on his views. And then he stays at douche level, meaning: He uses his powers of reflection to try to look thoughtful in the eyes of others.

We laugh at him here too!

The highest praise my opinions on roleplaying games could possibly receive is for Settembrini to dislike them.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;504511We get it, you don't like 40k. Next?

Not quite. I liked the 40k of Rogue Trader. I don't much like 40k as it is today.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;504424Perhaps the question should have been "is WH40K at all redeemable?"

Probably not.

 WH 40K is a big stinking mess.


- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPundit;504707Not quite. I liked the 40k of Rogue Trader. I don't much like 40k as it is today.

RPGPundit

I dunno. I like Rogue Trader nowadays - it's Space Opera. Except grimier.

Rogue Trader is the only current game I know of where you are a serious player, with a giant spaceship and a huge crew that are all yours.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;501962There is some hope in Ravenloft.  It is not always gloom and doom there in the setting.  There are many bastions of faith that still hold strong against the dark powers.

Yeah, most of the 2e books for Ravenloft emphasized the importance of contrast. Things like beautiful natural environments, humor, pleasant NPCs, etc were considered important to building the mood as well. All dark and serious wasn't what it was all about.

Quote from: danbuter;505196Rogue Trader is the only current game I know of where you are a serious player, with a giant spaceship and a huge crew that are all yours.

Whats stopping you from doing that with HERO system, GURPS, or SAVAGE WORLDS?

How about TRAVELLER?
Technically its a 'current game' via the Mongoose take on it.

OR you could play one of the RPG variations of the STAR TREK universe.

Somtimes I think there are GMS (or maybe just people) who aren't even attempting creativity because it might involve a little bit of work on their part.

- Ed C.

I'm playing on a Rogue Trader game right now. It's probably the one 40K game that gives players a chance to break away from the grimdark bullshit (sort of; the Universe is still a fairly unforgiving place) and do their own stuff, as they are essentially explorers operating outside the usual boundaries of Imperial authority, with a lot of autonomy.

Quote from: Koltar;505215Whats stopping you from doing that with HERO system, GURPS, or SAVAGE WORLDS?

How about TRAVELLER?
Technically its a 'current game' via the Mongoose take on it.

OR you could play one of the RPG variations of the STAR TREK universe.

- Ed C.

Hero, Gurps, and Savage Worlds are all generic. Traveller by default has the players being in debt and without a large ship. In Star Trek you're bound by the lame-ass Federation rules, and are certainly not an independent force.

Rogue Trader has you being powerful with at least one huge ship by default, which is what I'm getting at. The others, you have to bend or break the rules to do it.

In Traveller the New Era you can pool ship shares to get a patrol cruiser or mercenary cruiser.  The only ships left with crews in the tens of thousands are in the Regency or controlled by Virus.

T5 will also have that feature IRRC.

You can certainly do a big ship game in GURPS, though the best way to get it is by taking a patron.  A party of multimillionaires might manage it too.

Quote from: danbuter;505196Rogue Trader is the only current game I know of where you are a serious player, with a giant spaceship and a huge crew that are all yours.

I still need to get this game at some point. That's the only WH40K game I don't have, AND I'm hugely interested in the premise.

As for the OP, yes, Grimdark doesn't mean that you have to make it all about the Magical Misery Tour. It's all in the way you use the setting, for God's sakes. Some GMs will suck at it, or will engage in various fantasies based on the setting's premise, but then, you can have great games with Twilight 2000 and other games, so why not 40K?

Quote from: Koltar;505215Whats stopping you from doing that with HERO system, GURPS, or SAVAGE WORLDS?

How about TRAVELLER?
Technically its a 'current game' via the Mongoose take on it.

OR you could play one of the RPG variations of the STAR TREK universe.

Somtimes I think there are GMS (or maybe just people) who aren't even attempting creativity because it might involve a little bit of work on their part.

- Ed C.

I am perverted enough to enjoy W40k universe. That's why I'd rather just go with Rogue Trader. It's really well - written RPG too.

Quote from: RPGPundit;504707Not quite. I liked the 40k of Rogue Trader. I don't much like 40k as it is today.

RPGPundit

I prefer the flavor of original Rogue Trader game as well, primarily because it doesn't take itself seriously and isn't so locked into every game involving some aspect of the Imperial bureaucracy... it feels less rigid and more exotic in the corners (like a dystopian Star Trek).
I don't see any reason though, why I couldn't capture that with Dark Heresy or (new) Rogue Trader... except maybe that I'd be making up some stats for aliens beasties on my own, which isn't a big deal. The idea I get from the original game is that the setting is so vast I can pretty much set the 'grimdark' dial however low/high I like. I could make it feel like Star Wars if I wanted to.

Quote from: danbuter;505247Traveller by default has the players being in debt and without a large ship.

Rogue Trader has you being powerful with at least one huge ship by default, which is what I'm getting at. The others, you have to bend or break the rules to do it.

How large of a ship in Traveller would you want?

Adventure 4 Leviathan for Classic Traveller had the PCs in an 1800 ton exploratory merchant that was cruising beyond the Imperial borders to find new markets. Amusingly enough, it was also designed by Bob McWilliams and was produced and edited by Albie Fiore, Ian Livingstone and Andy Slack of Games Workshop Ltd., England. It came out in 1980 and is pretty obviously the basis for Rogue Trader.

You can do the same with the current Mongoose Traveller if you like without bending or breaking the rules because they are incorporated into them.

So does Zombie Apocalypse qualify as grimdark, or is it borderline? I guess with zombie comedies suggesting that ZA is survivable goes against tradition. But I rarely found any ZA worthwhile of holding my attention for very long because my apathy meter filled too fast. Too much about relentless hopelessness and protagonists holding the stupid ball for me to bother. I just found most of these movies shocking and gross and not really horrifying, regardless of atmosphere.

Quote from: jeff37923;505407Adventure 4 Leviathan for Classic Traveller had the PCs in an 1800 ton exploratory merchant (snip)... It came out in 1980 and is pretty obviously the basis for Rogue Trader.

Hmmm... interesting. I quite liked 'Leviathan' back when... the books with lots of deckplans were always favorites... but I'd never considered it might be an inspiration/relative of RT... but now that I think of it, the Leviathan is much closer to what I originally pictured a Rogue Trader's ship being like, compared to the cities-in-space described in the current RPG.

Quote from: jeff37923;505407How large of a ship in Traveller would you want?

Adventure 4 Leviathan for Classic Traveller had the PCs in an 1800 ton exploratory merchant that was cruising beyond the Imperial borders to find new markets. Amusingly enough, it was also designed by Bob McWilliams and was produced and edited by Albie Fiore, Ian Livingstone and Andy Slack of Games Workshop Ltd., England. It came out in 1980 and is pretty obviously the basis for Rogue Trader.

From the 1e Rogue Trader rules, a Rogue Trader may command a fleet of ships able to carry a large complement of soldiers, plus settlers and technical staff to carry out his charge of discovering new worlds and either conquering and pillaging them or eradicating their population and colonising them.

The Leviathan is small - miniscule, really - compared to what a Rogue Trader is likely to command, and that's just the 1e WH40K version of him.

As an aside, my character captained Leviathan fresh off making a boatload of credits trading along the Spinward Main in Twilight's Peak. Leviathan's tiny cargo hold really cramped my speculative trading style. :p

Quote from: Black Vulmea;505557From the 1e Rogue Trader rules, a Rogue Trader may command a fleet of ships able to carry a large complement of soldiers, plus settlers and technical staff to carry out his charge of discovering new worlds and either conquering and pillaging them or eradicating their population and colonising them.

The Leviathan is small - miniscule, really - compared to what a Rogue Trader is likely to command, and that's just the 1e WH40K version of him.

Hmm, OK with that in mind, Leviathan is rather small. Although, I bet a well-designed exploration/colonisation ship could be used in Traveller.

(I actually have some notes for this from a long conversation on Citizens of the Imperium. I know it can be done, but it is definitely a non-standard ship  design. The colonisation can be done a la either World Tamer's Handbook, Pocket Empires, or Dynasty which are TNE, T4, and Mongoose Traveller respectively.)

Quote from: Black Vulmea;505557As an aside, my character captained Leviathan fresh off making a boatload of credits trading along the Spinward Main in Twilight's Peak. Leviathan's tiny cargo hold really cramped my speculative trading style. :p

Hehehe, we were using the cargo space of all the ship's boats as well to try and max out the profits.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;505557The Leviathan is small - miniscule, really - compared to what a Rogue Trader is likely to command, and that's just the 1e WH40K version of him.

Yeah, I think that... coming to it with Traveller/Star Wars on the brain  it took some of us a while to realize that the Rogue Traders weren't so much Han Solo/Millenium Falcon as they were James Lancaster/East India Company... despite that being clearly on display in the writeup.

Quote from: Opaopajr;505520So does Zombie Apocalypse qualify as grimdark, or is it borderline? I guess with zombie comedies suggesting that ZA is survivable goes against tradition. But I rarely found any ZA worthwhile of holding my attention for very long because my apathy meter filled too fast. Too much about relentless hopelessness and protagonists holding the stupid ball for me to bother. I just found most of these movies shocking and gross and not really horrifying, regardless of atmosphere.

Zombie Apocalypse is part of Post - Apocalyptic genre, and it's "ruled" by a bit different themes.

Generally speaking - no. In PA, usually the world is either doomed and best you can do is to scrape the living for the last few days, or there's hope for rebuilding the civilisation.

Quote from: Rincewind1;505592Zombie Apocalypse is part of Post - Apocalyptic genre, and it's "ruled" by a bit different themes.

Most ZA, especially Romero's stuff, tends towards grimdark, as "everybody dies, you have no chance" hopelessness is part of his schtick.

In the original cut of Dawn of the Dead, he had one of the three main characters jump into a helicopter blade and commit suicide (by chopping through his melon). Explicitly, on screen.

"Suicide is the only rational response to the world we live in. There is utterly no hope." That's pretty grimdark to me.

Moody's zombie trilogy (not Haters, the other one) ends with an explicit "the human race is extinct, and that's okay" coda. Fuck you, Moody. What a shit ending after 3 books.

OTOH, WWZ won a special place in my heart for showing people being able to adapt to the zombie outbreak, learn lessons, survive, and eventually win. It has a hopefulness most of the rest of PA lacks. Patient Zero, too. And 28 Days Later. (28 Months fell right back into the "you have no hope" shitter.)

And bear in mind I'm a fan of the genre. Seen most of the movies, inclding the infamous island one, owned and played the games (earned Zombie Genocider and Zombie Gencidest, respectively), and read the books. Also writing a zombie novel right now.

I love me some zombie fiction, just despise the preachiness and despair most authors seem to want to inject into the genre.

So, yeah, most of it is grimdark. (The Road, too for that matter.) But it doesn't have to be, as the examples I've given show. And your zombie setting can be whatever you wish.

Of the ZA films out there I dig Romero's "Night of the Living Dead" and Fulci's "Zombie" because a hopeless story occasionally is beautiful to watch. But those two films were also quite spectacular in use of visuals and soundtrack; they oozed atmosphere, and I think that's why I still like them. All this new stuff feels like trite rehashes. Perhaps because I come to expect certain tropes by now that only the atmospheric directing is left to really entertain me.

So, OK, ZA may span the gamut that may overlap into grimdark, but itself not solely be within grimdark. I can see that. Otherwise where do you put the zombie comedies. But this just seems to isolate Warhammer more and more within the sphere of grimdark-ness.

Quote from: Opaopajr;505678Otherwise where do you put the zombie comedies.

Forgot those. Zombieland and Shawn of the Dead. Both classics.

And, of course, the Return of the Living Dead series, which was more camp and less horror. Camp cannot be Grimdark, though settings which would otherwise be Grimdark can be played for camp value (as people in this thread have described doing.)

The problem, Daddy, is that grimdarks are usually over - the - top in the ways ZA usually isn't.

Quote from: Rincewind1;505794The problem, Daddy, is that grimdarks are usually over - the - top in the ways ZA usually isn't.

Maybe, depending on the definition we never really came to a consensus on. I'm basing my concept on TV Trope's Crapsack World (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld).

That fits my definition of Grimdark, and gives plenty of illustrative examples.

And, regarding Moody, if the pending extinction of the human race, and the author's approval of same, doesn't equal Grimdark, I'm not sure what would.

I agree, 40K is a gonzo Grimdark setting. Grimdark plus over-the-top bizarreness and (sometimes) silliness. But I don't think the gonzo element is necessary to make something Grimdark.

Some ZA falls into just plain ordinary, depressing as shit, human race on the way out, everybody dying like animals, even the normal humans are eating each other, grim darkness. Plus The Road. That's Grimdark, to me.

Not Gonzo Grimdark, just plain Grimdark. There could be a distinction drawn there.

(Gonzo Grimdark. Now there's a term for you.)

Like most of nerd terms, both of the definitions are correct, and it's simply the one with more followers that'll become correct one day ;).

I usually see a certain layer of "gonzo", as you put it, or farce as OHT'd say, as a part of grimdark pattern, that is often lacking in Zombie Apocalypse. Grimdark is also a pejorative term a bit imo, but I am perhaps just oversensitive.

So I guess ZA can be considered borderline Grimdark.

Quote from: Rincewind1;505822Grimdark is also a pejorative term a bit imo, but I am perhaps just oversensitive.

No, you're right and I let that slip my mind. Grimdark is highly pejorative, not only mocking the setting itself, but with added overtones of "why would anyone intelligent want to play that?" It's a term intended to dismiss a setting/game and its fans in toto, it presumes no defense of said setting can or should be mounted.

I get not wanting to label things with that tag, especially things you like. As I said, I like ZA fiction, hell I even like 40K, Gonzo Grimdark and all.

(Oh yes, you will all be using that term someday. Bwa-hah-hah-hah-hah!)

So maybe I should change my position a bit. I don't mean to tar anything with that label.

It's just that some settings are grim and ugly, others grim and ugly in an over-the-top angsty kind of way, and yet others grim and ugly, but with added wackiness.

Assuming Grimdark is too pejorative a term, what would we call these by?

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;505846No, you're right and I let that slip my mind. Grimdark is highly pejorative, not only mocking the setting itself, but with added overtones of "why would anyone intelligent want to play that?" It's a term intended to dismiss a setting/game and its fans in toto, it presumes no defense of said setting can or should be mounted.

I get not wanting to label things with that tag, especially things you like. As I said, I like ZA fiction, hell I even like 40K, Gonzo Grimdark and all.

(Oh yes, you will all be using that term someday. Bwa-hah-hah-hah-hah!)

So maybe I should change my position a bit. I don't mean to tar anything with that label.

It's just that some settings are grim and ugly, others grim and ugly in an over-the-top angsty kind of way, and yet others grim and ugly, but with added wackiness.

Assuming Grimdark is too pejorative a term, what would we call these by?

I'd suggest we just keep calling the dark, grim and over - the - top gonzo stuff Grimdark, and not be oversensitive wusses  over it, and the rest we just call grim or dark fantasy, or post - apocalyptic ;). I actually like Grimdark settings, and I like the term - it is just too often that it's used for the "evil".

I like the term too... no matter if some people use it disparagingly... it's got just enough of a suggestion of 'silly' to it to set it apart from purely nihilistic stuff like bleak ZA/PA/FA settings.

Do Judge Dredd and Nemesis count as 'Grimdark'... seeing as 40K draws from them pretty heavily?

So wait, there's a necessary tongue and cheek nature to grim dark, yes? Like, the black knight can't just have jet black armor, he must have HUGE SPIKEY jet black armor, with bits of his enemies hanging off like Trophies and Fetishes! The "good guys" aren't questionably grey in their tactics, they must be RUTHLESS and RELENTLESS zealots holding the last bastion of Crushing Order in a world gone mad.

Like that, right? In essence, grimdark is like the newest marketing size/flavor "Xtreme!" but dressed in counterculture evil/misery cool...

Quote from: Opaopajr;505870So wait, there's a necessary tongue and cheek nature to grim dark, yes? Like, the black knight can't just have jet black armor, he must have HUGE SPIKEY jet black armor, with bits of his enemies hanging off like Trophies and Fetishes! The "good guys" aren't questionably grey in their tactics, they must be RUTHLESS and RELENTLESS zealots holding the last bastion of Crushing Order in a world gone mad.

Like that, right?

You are on the right track.

Quote from: Simlasa;505850Do Judge Dredd and Nemesis count as 'Grimdark'... seeing as 40K draws from them pretty heavily?

I don't think so. Dredd and Nemesis were intentionally funny, and think part of the definition of grimdark implies that one is missing the joke.

Quote from: stu2000;505892I don't think so. Dredd and Nemesis were intentionally funny, and think part of the definition of grimdark implies that one is missing the joke.

Original Rogue Trader and early WFB/WFRP were certainly intentional with their humor... hmmm... did 40K not start as grimdark?

My impression is that the humor has been lost or eroded over time. My flgs is inhabited primarily by 40K fans. Most of them only know Dredd by the movie and never read any 2000AD. Satire is not part of the appeal for them.

I enjoy it for the humor. We can all share our enjoyment. If I run 40K rp for them they aren't offended by the humor. I get odd looks at times when I comment solely on the humor in the novels or comics. So no--I don't think humor is key in 40K anymore. I'm glad it's still there, but maybe you have to have watched it evolve over time to pick up on some of it.

Quote from: Simlasa;505911Original Rogue Trader and early WFB/WFRP were certainly intentional with their humor... hmmm... did 40K not start as grimdark?

The old stuff had humour as a part of design, in that good old, Blackadderish & Only-fools-and-horsish, distinct British style.

The humour of 2e and FFG W40k comes from mostly doing the things Over The Top.

And just like in trench warfare, being over the top is a great idea, if you want to get shot.

Yeah, I realize that newer 40K and WFB and WFRP are taking themselves much more seriously and the joke is mostly on them... but since they all started off with tongues in cheek where do you think the 'grimdark' comes in... is it after they lose their sense of humor? Or have they been 'grimdark' all along.
To my mind they always had it... but I'm thinking of the term in a non-pejorative sense.

Quote from: Simlasa;505931Yeah, I realize that newer 40K and WFB and WFRP are taking themselves much more seriously and the joke is mostly on them... but since they all started off with tongues in cheek where do you think the 'grimdark' comes in... is it after they lose their sense of humor? Or have they been 'grimdark' all along.
To my mind they always had it... but I'm thinking of the term in a non-pejorative sense.

Hm, true, true. This is becoming quite convoluted. I'd say though that early Warhammer, both Fantasy and 40k, was just fantasy in a grim setting with a lot of black humour in it - so basically grimdark lite. Later, when attempts to remove that humour were made, while at the same try, trying to, in a convoluted manner, keep it and raise the ante on dark fantasy, caused  the Grimdarkening Hard.

Quote from: Opaopajr;505870So wait, there's a necessary tongue and cheek nature to grim dark, yes? Like, the black knight can't just have jet black armor, he must have HUGE SPIKEY jet black armor, with bits of his enemies hanging off like Trophies and Fetishes! The "good guys" aren't questionably grey in their tactics, they must be RUTHLESS and RELENTLESS zealots holding the last bastion of Crushing Order in a world gone mad.

Like that, right? In essence, grimdark is like the newest marketing size/flavor "Xtreme!" but dressed in counterculture evil/misery cool...

I think grimdark could be redeemable as humor, if it wasn't that the majority of its fans don't actually get the joke, and nowadays the majority of its designers don't seem to understand that certain things started as joke/mockery either, and mistake it for a serious position.

And of course, by grimdark I basically mean 40K.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Simlasa;505931Yeah, I realize that newer 40K and WFB and WFRP are taking themselves much more seriously and the joke is mostly on them... but since they all started off with tongues in cheek where do you think the 'grimdark' comes in... is it after they lose their sense of humor? Or have they been 'grimdark' all along.
To my mind they always had it... but I'm thinking of the term in a non-pejorative sense.

Grimdark came from pushing mini-sales, pure and simple.  Make shit bigger, badder, darker, and METAL!  Who cares that the fluff is gauze thin and changes with the wind when your gun is the size of a VW Bus?

Considering how many sales GW continues to make year in and year out, I suspect most gamers do not agree with all the foo-fooers here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;506091I think grimdark could be redeemable as humor, if it wasn't that the majority of its fans don't actually get the joke, and nowadays the majority of its designers don't seem to understand that certain things started as joke/mockery either, and mistake it for a serious position.

And of course, by grimdark I basically mean 40K.

RPGPundit

I'm with you there: 40k is getting duller and way more starchy but it seems there are a lot of people who think that is a good thing.

They tend to be the same people who think a miniature covered in unpaintable nobbly bits and flash is better quality than a clean easy to paint figure.

Quote from: Simlasa;505563Yeah, I think that... coming to it with Traveller/Star Wars on the brain  it took some of us a while to realize that the Rogue Traders weren't so much Han Solo/Millenium Falcon as they were James Lancaster/East India Company... despite that being clearly on display in the writeup.

I was playing a lot of Traveller when the first edition of Rogue Trader, and I remember very distinctly my first reaction: "Holy shit, I'm small fucking potatoes!"

It was about that time that my merchant character bought a big freighter and hired a patrol cruiser and a platoon of mercenaries as an escort.

Quote from: danbuter;506221Considering how many sales GW continues to make year in and year out, I suspect most gamers do not agree with all the foo-fooers here.

Sadly, that's likely true. There are a lot of mindless metal fans, pseudo-militaristic morons, and would-be fascists wanking over the emperor and endless war out there...

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;506554Sadly, that's likely true. There are a lot of mindless metal fans, pseudo-militaristic morons, and would-be fascists wanking over the emperor and endless war out there...

RPGPundit

That's what you get when your target demographic is 12 year old boys.

Quote from: RPGPundit;506091. . . [N]owadays the majority of its designers don't seem to understand that certain things started as joke/mockery either, and mistake it for a serious position.

Yeah, the GW crew back in the Eighties approached their games with tongues firmly in cheek, which is what made their products, for me, so much fun.

Quote from: RPGPundit;506554Sadly, that's likely true. There are a lot of mindless metal fans, pseudo-militaristic morons, and would-be fascists wanking over the emperor and endless war out there...

RPGPundit

It just adds to the emersion for me. I like to claim my character is from "Foundation" and that all of the machine spirit emperor worshippers are following the religion we made up for them.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;506557Yeah, the GW crew back in the Eighties approached their games with tongues firmly in cheek, which is what made their products, for me, so much fun.

I really miss that version of GW as well. The current crew and thinking at GW would never come up with something like Blood Bowl.

Quote from: RPGPundit;506091I think grimdark could be redeemable as humor, if it wasn't that the majority of its fans don't actually get the joke, and nowadays the majority of its designers don't seem to understand that certain things started as joke/mockery either, and mistake it for a serious position.

And of course, by grimdark I basically mean 40K.

RPGPundit

This thread is comically clueless.

Dude, the very word is meant as a joke.

I know of almost no one over the age of fucking 12 that doesn't get the inherent absurdities of the setting, and revel in them. It's part of what makes it fun.

And besides, the joy of hopelessness is you've nothing left to lose.

So I'm seeing my perspective shift here... with 'grimdark' taking on the more pejorative sense Rincewind1 and others suggest... that it's more precisely a term to mock the self-serious tone of later versions of the GW IP... and its fans.

Quote from: J Arcane;506583I know of almost no one over the age of fucking 12 that doesn't get the inherent absurdities of the setting, and revel in them.

Sadly that hasn't been my experience... most all of the hardcore 40K players I've been around of late take that shit with a straight face (except maybe for the guys playing Space Orks). They spout the trivia with the same demeanor as the hard-core Star Wars/Star Trek fans. If GW were to do a U-Turn and put the party hat back on those guys would be kinda pissed. They're the same ones who complain about John Blanche's artwork... because it's 'silly'.
Then again, nowadays most of their jabber is about the game stats. When the game became focused on 'tournaments' is when it started to lose its sense of humor and the players did the same.

Quote from: RPGPundit;506554. . . a lot of mindless metal fans, pseudo-militaristic morons, and would-be fascists wanking over the emperor . . .

So that's how the Golden Throne keeps going :jaw-dropping:

Blood Bowl was awesome.

RPGPundit

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/03/20

Apropos of nothing, but when 40k first came out White Dwarf, as it began to change, had a plastic record insert called Blood for the Blood God by a band called Sabbat.

Quote from: RPGPundit;507031Blood Bowl was awesome.

RPGPundit

I prefer Darkbowl

You mock, but just imagine what "blood bowl" would look like done by the current grimdark fetishists for the current crop of fascism-fanboys who are their market?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;507508You mock, but just imagine what "blood bowl" would look like done by the current grimdark fetishists for the current crop of fascism-fanboys who are their market?

RPGPundit

what grimdark fetishists? I've never seen, heard nor encountered such a phenomena anywhere on or offline.

Original 40k was no less a serious setting. It may have become more gothic over the years, which is what you mean by grimdark (other than silly fluff, such as the grey knight stuff i hear about, which i think is typical of nothing), but that is what lends the setting it's black humour, which is there.

In the end the setting exists primarily for a wargame, so of course, in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium there is only war. The only person I see taking the grimdark as seriously as you purport is you. The kids playing the game may have a preponderance toward long hair leather and metal, but they are just people that enjoy a social hobby. I really don't know what your problem is.

Pundit likes rail against the enemies in his head. He has quite the imagination.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;507218Apropos of nothing, but when 40k first came out White Dwarf, as it began to change, had a plastic record insert called Blood for the Blood God by a band called Sabbat.

Yep... I've still got mine around here somewhere. I'd never bothered to listen to it until I spotted it on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8mEOiI4pjs&feature=related).

I might out myself as an unrefined plebs or whatever now, but I actually do like the WH40k setting. At times I even enjoy it without any humour. It is a great place to be a hero.

It's funny I just read GURPS Abdyos and can't help thinking it's about the darkest rpg book I've ever read.  Set in Yrth, a setting that's essentially an SCA theme park world, of all places.

The city is home to the Lazerite heresy that maintains that Lazerus not Peter was the true head of the church after Christ and that necromancy is a holy sacrament.  Skeletons work the fields and are sold in the markets.  Zombies are created and then turned into skeletons in acid baths as they'd be a public health risk.

I don't know, something about the bland, dry backdrop just really makes the horror stand out.  In 40k you get numb to the pierced cyborg cherubrum and serviors after a while.

It's a bit like the fat, incompetent psycho killer in Sandman's Cereal Convention issue being the scariest of the lot because he stalks his victims at an amusement park and the management knows it's going on and keeps it hushed up.

That said roleplaying in the 40k universe doesn't really appeal to me and I doubt Abdyos will ever appear in my current GURPS Fantasy campaign.

I find 40k an easier prospect to game than Judge Dredd simply because playing a Judge really is playing a two dimensional character (YMMV for grud's sake).