I was glancing at ENWorld today, something I do very irregularly (its pretty low on my list of forums of interest, but i look at it maybe once every two weeks), and I noticed a thread where a guy asks for a D20 setting product that's 98% description and 2% rules; and another guy recommends him "Arduin".
Now first of all, is there a D20 Arduin? This is the first I hear of it.
Second, if there is, why the fuck would it be 90% fluff? The Arduin I know of was essentially a huge set of (occasionally unbalanced) optional spicy crunch for 1st edition AD&D... supposedly its own system in later versions but in reality just a rip-off of AD&D and the goal was very clearly to use most of the "cooler" arduin stuff (like the spells that did 200HP damage for 1D12 rounds to everything in a 10000' line) in D&D itself.
How the hell did the "Arduin" name go from something that was 98% crunch in the original version to something that is recommendable to someone looking for 90% fluff?
Me confused! :confused:
RPGpundit
1) http://www.worldofkhaas.com/
2) Dave Hargraves is dead.
I am absolutely certain there is no Arduin d20, 'cause if there were I would have a copy. Maybe two copies. Maybe all copies everywhere.
Quote from: RPGPunditI was glancing at ENWorld today, something I do very irregularly (its pretty low on my list of forums of interest, but i look at it maybe once every two weeks), and I noticed a thread where a guy asks for a D20 setting product that's 98% description and 2% rules; and another guy recommends him "Arduin".
That other guy would be me. The new book is actually 100% description, 0% rules. It's not d20 beyond the applicability of any other rules free worldbook.
QuoteSecond, if there is, why the fuck would it be 90% fluff?
There is no good reason. I would suspect the actual reason is "the people in charge of the license are your classical old-school anti-d20 reactionaries who won't put out a well done modern, d20 translation of Arduin even though it would probably sell like hotcakes."
What a gang of cunts. They have utterly betrayed the history of this incredible game, just because they're a gang of big-headed heretics out to prove a point about hating D20. Don't they realize that it is WAY more against the spirit of Arduin to take that game title and turn it into something that's all setting, then it would be to make it D20. Dave must be rolling in his grave.
RPGPundit
You're talking about people who, many years ago, proudly announced they could use 'hobbit' because they weren't TSR. Only to have their asses handed to them by Tolkein Enterprises for using 'hobbit'.
Quote from: jrientsI am absolutely certain there is no Arduin d20, 'cause if there were I would have a copy. Maybe two copies. Maybe all copies everywhere.
You would not have mine.
Unless you could get past my Deodanth bodyguards, I suppose.
Seriously, while I was never the biggest fan of the whole d20 thing, if any one game setting deserved, nay,
demanded an official d20 supplement, it's Arduin.
If they had struck while the iron was hot, Arduin might be a big name again in gaming, instead of a historical blip. Talk about a wasted oppurtunity...
Yeah, looking at these original 3 Arduin books I have, they seem tailor-made for a d20 version. Hell, a lot of it could be translated into d20 with little real effort, or would have a d20 analog somewhere already. Whether it would be - or could be - balanced against other d20 stuff is the $64 question. But Arduin is one of those cases where it wouldn't matter.
I'm with the Slaad and Pundit re:why the fuck they would make Arduin into an all-fluff setting book. The setting, such as it was, always struck me as more a frame for Hargrave to hang his rules innovations on than an actual setting.
By the way, am I the only one who sees echoes of the Arduin grimoires in HackMaster...?
Quote from: ColonelHardissonBy the way, am I the only one who sees echoes of the Arduin grimoires in HackMaster...?
Yes, in certain ways HM is inspired by Arduin almost as much as by 1st ed AD&D.
However, its not for D20. D20 could really use a book of crazy mixed-up Gonzo rules additions.
I mean fuck, Arduin was the REAL "Encounter Critical".
RPGPundit
I'd buy a d20 Arduin like I'd buy a GURPS Arduin.
That is to say: Not at all.
Good for them for pissing on the bandwagon as it passes by.
Somebody's got to.
Quote from: YamoGood for them for pissing on the bandwagon as it passes by.
Bugger off, Yamo. The pro- and anti- d20 ideologues both annoy the hell out of me. D20 didn't destroy gaming. Nor is it the Second Coming. I have fun playing d20, even if it isn't my favorite.
I don't want an Arduin d20 because I'm one of those people who thinks everything should be d20. I want Arduin d20 because it would be fun and it would be a perfect fit for d20.
Besides, do you even know what a bandwagon is? It's the wagon that the circus band would ride in the parade. Are you against circuses and bands? That's like being anti-fun.
Quote from: jrientsI don't want an Arduin d20 because I'm one of those people who thinks everything should be d20. I want Arduin d20 because it would be fun and it would be a perfect fit for d20.
If you want Arduin that bad, you probably already have it (as I do). So what's the problem, exactly? Hell, even if you don't have it, it's very affordable on Ebay.
Quit remindimg me of one of those dudes that thinks that every even remotely successful movie ever needs to be remade every couple years with, like, new CGI effects and shit.
Quote from: RPGPunditNow first of all, is there a D20 Arduin? This is the first I hear of it.
Believe it or not, in early 2000 I was one of the playtesters for an Arduin d20 that Emperor's Choice Games had been working on. If it was published Arduin d20 might have beaten Scarred Lands to the shelves as the first fully-developed d20 System campaign setting, but EmpCho got cold feet about the OGL and canceled the thing.
Quote from: YamoIf you want Arduin that bad, you probably already have it (as I do). So what's the problem, exactly? Hell, even if you don't have it, it's very affordable on Ebay.
I have Arduin on ebay and I spread the good word of its awesomosity every chance I get. Consider how much eaisier it would be to win new converts if it was available as a shiny new book that was compatible with what the kids were playing. Listen, I'm trying to inject more old school cool into d20 and you're bitching. I thought you liked the older stuff?
QuoteQuit remindimg me of one of those dudes that thinks that every even remotely successful movie ever needs to be remade every couple years with, like, new CGI effects and shit.
Oh, don't give me that shit. I'm so old school it's beyond cool and straight into the absurdly juvenile. There are people on this board
laughing their asses off at you for even suggesting I'm that kind of guy.
Quote from: William G. GruffBelieve it or not, in early 2000 I was one of the playtesters for an Arduin d20 that Emperor's Choice Games had been working on. If it was published Arduin d20 might have beaten Scarred Lands to the shelves as the first fully-developed d20 System campaign setting, but EmpCho got cold feet about the OGL and canceled the thing.
My heart is broken. :(
Quote from: jrientsMy heart is broken. :(
If it makes you feel any better, I don't think it would have been very good from a d20 System "crunch" standpoint. We're talking Chaosium's Dragon Lords of Melnibone here. In all fairness though I don't think the writers at EmpCho had anything other than an early draft of the new PHB to work with; I remember some game mechanics being based solely on rumors they'd seen on Eric Noah's 3E News page.
Quote from: YamoGood for them for pissing on the bandwagon as it passes by.
Somebody's got to.
You're wrong, and even if you were right this is a particularly stupid case. Forget about "D20" for a second. What we're talking about here is a game losing the main feature of its identity out of nothing but spite for another game. This is just monumental stupidity in its purest, most distilled form.
Its like as if out of spite for Unknown Armies, Call of Cthulhu stopped having a SAN stat or magic.
Its like out of spite for Shadowrun, the new Cyberpunk didn't have cyberwear.
Its that level of pointless stupid. Its one of the very very best examples of cutting off your nose to spite your face I've ever seen.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditIts that level of pointless stupid. Its one of the very very best examples of cutting off your nose to spite your face I've ever seen.
As opposed to what? Seems to me that releasing a game that isn't the one you want/like would be a better example of that.
Not liking the system is more than reason enough to not use it. I can respect that decision.
Just so we're all clear, I'm not saying EmpCho pulled the plug because they disliked the d20 System itself. Instead they were afraid of the OGL.
Quote from: YamoAs opposed to what? Seems to me that releasing a game that isn't the one you want/like would be a better example of that.
Not liking the system is more than reason enough to not use it. I can respect that decision.
Eh, but if they didn't like the system simply because it was popular, that's a stupid reason not to do it. Very stupid, and juvenile. Besides, Arduin was always more an add-on for D&D even from its beginning; making an Arduin sourcebook of crunch for d20 (something like the new Unearthed Arcana) would've been a win-win situation, and in keeping with Arduin's history.
Quote from: William G. GruffJust so we're all clear, I'm not saying EmpCho pulled the plug because they disliked the d20 System itself. Instead they were afraid of the OGL.
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.
Quote from: William G. GruffJust so we're all clear, I'm not saying EmpCho pulled the plug because they disliked the d20 System itself. Instead they were afraid of the OGL.
Weird. DId they cite any specific issues that they had with it?
Quote from: YamoWeird. DId they cite any specific issues that they had with it?
I don't think so. It was mostly just "we'll lose control of our intellectual property rights" paranoia without any particular examples.
Quote from: William G. GruffI don't think so. It was mostly just "we'll lose control of our intellectual property rights" paranoia without any particular examples.
PEG (or whatever company it was that own deadlands before PEG) has a similar reaction. Some folks were jittery about the whole deal in the early days.
Hell, my point is that if they really despised OGL/D20, they ought to have released for another system, something for Hackmaster, perhaps.
But the fact is they DID release a D20 product, but they made it virtually the opposite of what Arduin's tradition was all about.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditWhat a gang of cunts. They have utterly betrayed the history of this incredible game, just because they're a gang of big-headed heretics out to prove a point about hating D20. Don't they realize that it is WAY more against the spirit of Arduin to take that game title and turn it into something that's all setting, then it would be to make it D20. Dave must be rolling in his grave.
RPGPundit
Well, actually knowing the people behind the product. . .
1. A d20 Arduin product was considered. As was a BRP-derived Arduin product.
CyberGames (who owned Emperor's Chocie for a bit) effectively sat around with their thumb up their butt until the best window of opportunity was for a financially viable d20 Arduin had closed. By the time that EmpCho was on their own and had recovered from the Cybergames collapse, the d20 market had leveled off (i.e., just because a book had the d20 logo on it, didn't mean that it would sell well).
In the end, neither option was pursued, I'm told, because. . .
2. The reason that a systemless product was decided upon in the end was because the EmpCho team felt that three currently supported systems for Arduin was enough (at the time the world book was published, Empcho was still printing alll three Arduin rules sets, including the original Grimoire, The Arduin Adventure, and The Compleat Arduin).
3. The EmpCho folks inherited Dave's entire library of unpublished Arduin material (literally). The World Book was largely transcribed from longhand notebooks of setting detail penned by Dave Hargrave. Many of Dave's
rules had made it into print in the past, but precious little of his setting information had ever been published -- the EmpCho folks (many of who actually worked on the original Arduin material) wanted to make the
setting available.
Hmm. I see. Its a little less boneheaded now, but still. They really couldn't expect to get a lot of coverage for the setting, if the system they're using is still from the early 90s and not in a new edition. They should still have gone with an OGL book, printed a shitload of cool new crunch, and then done the setting.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditHmm. I see. Its a little less boneheaded now, but still. They really couldn't expect to get a lot of coverage for the setting, if the system they're using is still from the early 90s and not in a new edition. They should still have gone with an OGL book, printed a shitload of cool new crunch, and then done the setting.
RPGPundit
I
think that the The Worldbook of Khaas was printed in extremely limited numbers and, not published to draw in new fans, but to cater to existing ones (who were apparently happy with the existing Arduin rules, but wanted more setting coverage). And honestly, looking back at Dave's own publishing history, I think that doing anything else would have set him spinning in his grave ;)
Many people had been waiting for the setting for nigh on thirty years, and I'm not sure that they would have been very happy with
yet another largely setting-bereft rule book. I think the plan is/was to get the setting out there first and
then deliver the new rules (though I haven't spoken to George since Spring, so my memory may be a bit fuzzy on that front).
That said, I do recall him saying that new rules were being worked on and that they'd be a more up to date re-iterration of the original Grimoire rules (i.e., they'd be unified, streamlined, etc). Whether they'll be released under an open license or when/if they'll be released, I do not know.
Yeah, Arduin was always the Velvet Underground of RPGs...
RPGpundit