Quote from: AaronBrown99;974004Yes but at the point of shot none of those things matter.

Yes, they do. Blaster fire is SLOW. I've seen different calculations, but dodging blaster bolts from blaster rifles is about liking dodging a thrown baseball. From ten feet away it'll be nearly impossible for all but those with superhuman abilities, but at 100 yards even normal people can avoid a hit. At the very least, an observant target can turn a lethal shot into a glancing hit. That's why the target's abilities should come into play.

A quick Google search pops up with a result of 15 meters per second for speed. Here's another answer: https://www.wired.com/2012/05/star-wars-blaster-speed/

Quote from: AaronBrown99;974004Yes but at the point of shot none of those things matter.

It does if your game system doesn't take into account any of those factors in other ways. If at the point of shot, your target is dodging or isn't visible because he was alert enough to see you coming and take cover or get in a position where he or his comrade actually has the drop on you, then hopefully the game has some way to represent that. The skilled people are managing space so that they aren't the one standing out in the open - Goofus the Recruit is.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;973998Why would the target's abilities matter in a ranged attack, aside from super-powers?

Because a ranged attack in this system does not represent just one shot. It represents several shots taken over a short span of time. A target that is not restrained is assumed to be moving, so practice in moving unpredictably and making best use of available cover should  count for something.

On the upside, there are talents that combat inclined players can get that boost defense vs ranged and melee combat. Downside is that defensive dice tend to suck major choad when compared to the other die types.

Thanks for the clarifications, that makes sense given the setting.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;974013On the upside, there are talents that combat inclined players can get that boost defense vs ranged and melee combat. Downside is that defensive dice tend to suck major choad when compared to the other die types.

Not only that, but those talents are not available to everyone, not even through many of the most heavily combat-based specializations. Even when they are, they usually cost a maneuver to use and then cost Strain on top of that. Because of this, the optimal solution is often to simply try to push Soak as high as possible through Brawn, armor, and the Enduring talent. When done well, a Soak of 7+ is quite possible. This laughs off most pistols and takes much of the sting out of rifles too.

There's also the issue that the game designers can't come up with a ruling on how Defense (a quality of its own) stacks. You can get Defense from several sources (armor, cover, some weapons, certain talents), but the rules on how it stacks suck ass and we've been waiting for over 3 years to try and get a clarification. As an example, right now, having one rank of Defensive Training will actually hurt you if you wield a weapon with Defensive 2 because the talent rank replaces that of the weapon whether it's higher or lower. The idea that knowing how to use a weapon defensively is counterproductive when using a weapon made for that purpose is so fucking stupid it hurts.

I call BS on claiming that FFG had to three books for their rpg line. Looking through both versions of Star Wars D6 Second edition Revised and Expanded and just the regular Second Edition. Both books had rules for Force Users. One could buy other Force related Sourcebooks.

Yet they are not needed imo. FFG model is a cash grab pure and simple. Which I don't mind because  no one is forcing me to buy one or all three. Let's also not pretend it's anything but. Their 40K rpgs were notorious for being full of reprint. " this is a bolter and what it does. We already mentioned it three times in three different core books just in case you forget here it a fourth time.

I also want to thank all here who tried to explain the dice mechanic to me. I guess it's not for me. I should understand and maybe if they kept the dice all one shape
It might be easier. Or like I said in my OP maybe you can't teach some older gamers new rpgs.

Pretty sure they could have had one main rulebook and then supplements to cover the other specialties.

In the 40k line Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade, and Only War all had unique mechanics, updated core rules and errata and different power scales that arguably necessitated separate Core Rulebooks.

From what people are saying here, it's basically a Cut-n-Paste job for most of the Core Rules.  There's no need or excuse for that.

I have to disagree about the new material in the 40K requiring seperate books 70-80% of it was rehash. With 20-30% being new. They were the fastest core books I ever read because they mostly copy and paste.

Quote from: CRKrueger;974377Pretty sure they could have had one main rulebook and then supplements to cover the other specialties.

In the 40k line Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade, and Only War all had unique mechanics, updated core rules and errata and different power scales that arguably necessitated separate Core Rulebooks.

From what people are saying here, it's basically a Cut-n-Paste job for most of the Core Rules.  There's no need or excuse for that.

It wouldn't have mattered had those rules not been a bloated unholy mess. Had the rules been simpler it wouldn't have mattered.

Even though the SW games have the same issue they each feel complete. The 40k books were far FAR from complete.

Quote from: sureshot;974371I call BS on claiming that FFG had to three books for their rpg line. Looking through both versions of Star Wars D6 Second edition Revised and Expanded and just the regular Second Edition. Both books had rules for Force Users. One could buy other Force related Sourcebooks.

If you take out all of the redundant rules, and only included the gear, sub-systems, between all three core-books it would be a 10lb book thicker than my arm. As the owner of the entire line, and someone not prone to burning my money for zero reason, each line emphasizes an entirely different aspect of the Star Wars universe. You don't *need* the other books from the other lines unless you're integrating those elements.

If you want to play straight-up Alliance vs. Empire - you don't need Edge of F&D at all. Likewise all the way around. F&D is specifically for in-depth Force-sensitives with training and it covers it in more depth than the d6 Sourcebooks as related to what specifically it is that these people do in relation to their training. Granted a lot of it has to do with interaction of the mechanics. You certainly couldn't "just put this" into Edge/AoR and say - here you go.

Quote from: sureshot;974371Yet they are not needed imo. FFG model is a cash grab pure and simple. Which I don't mind because  no one is forcing me to buy one or all three. Let's also not pretend it's anything but. Their 40K rpgs were notorious for being full of reprint. " this is a bolter and what it does. We already mentioned it three times in three different core books just in case you forget here it a fourth time.

So the reprint is minimal. Skills and basic gear mostly. Very few classes are reprinted (and even those are slightly different). I don't own any of the 40k books... so I can't compare. Most of the gearlists aside from the basic stuff common to Star Wars, contains a lot of gear specific to the line. Edge people don't have access to top-of-the-line military spec-stuff (though most basic weapons don't diverge far from them) and likewise their ships tend to be very different. Likewise with Force sensitives. So even the gear lists are tweaked for each line specifically.

If by cash-grab you mean the company needs to make money at the expense of quality - I'd highly disagree. I will even more highly disagree you could roll all three lines into one big book even more. Because the production costs would drive the price far beyond what anyone would reasonably pay for entry.

They want each line to represent a unique implied experience. Something to consider - FFG is trying to re-codify the entirety of Star Wars into a game via their system. That's a massive amount of ground to cover. I looked at my stack of d6 books and I'd say FFG has done a pretty damn good job of covering most of that material in their own way.

To say that the books don't *need* to be split into separate lines does not imply that the material within those lines are somehow invalid. The design decision is arbitrary, sure, but I believe the focus has been put to good use. The totality of the lines are intended to cater to those elements because frankly they are exclusive in their general play. Why would a hotshot X-wing pilot working for the Republic be allowed to pal-around with their Smuggler buddy and Sith friend free of context? That's the whole point. Military people will be doing military things, Criminal-folks will be doing criminal things. Jedi/Sith will be doing Jedi/Sith shit and each line supports those things exclusively. But if you wanna mix it up - you can.

My current game features a couple of Smugglers (Pilot, Gunslinger) a Cybertechnician, and an Imperial Infiltrator - working for a Darth and her (PC) Sith Apprentice. So I'm using Edge, AoE, and F&D simultaneously to feed all their respective needs. I *could not* do this with one core book unless you're somehow saying you don't like the color differences between the lines respective books or how they organized all the information in the pages. And this is for campaign purposes, not for running some module or one-shot adventure.

i.e. if you're saying all the FFG books are a money-grab writ-large because of "reprint"  - you're talking about a very small percentage of *three* books (which I maintain you couldn't shovel into one book with their design conceits). vs. the unique material of the entire three lines outside of those core books.

I realize I'm coming across as FFG SW super-fan (I'm not. I'm just willing to defend it against assertions I find silly). The system DOES have its problems. No system is perfect. I'm becoming an non-fan of the crafting system RAW.

I can appreciate someone defending a rpg they like  it just that West End Games managed to put a fairly complete rpg in one book. I admit FFG soured me on a multiple core concept with their 40K rpgs. I admit that's being unfair toward the SW rpg.

What are your issues with the crafting system?

Quote from: tenbones;974401I realize I'm coming across as FFG SW super-fan (I'm not. I'm just willing to defend it against assertions I find silly). The system DOES have its problems. No system is perfect. I'm becoming an non-fan of the crafting system RAW.

I agree.  My biggest issue is how 'soak' focused, instead of dodge.  I like the game, but it's not perfect, as you state.

Quote from: sureshot;974407I can appreciate someone defending a rpg they like  it just that West End Games managed to put a fairly complete rpg in one book. I admit FFG soured me on a multiple core concept with their 40K rpgs. I admit that's being unfair toward the SW rpg.

I hear you. To be fair - I'm more biased even than that. I heard all those things about 40k and never even investigated as to whether it was true. Which is a shame because I *really* feel I missed out on 40k...

Quote from: sureshot;974407What are your issues with the crafting system?

At first blush the crafting in FFG's system is potentially REALLY deep. Once you start reading it, you're frothing at the mouth if you're a tech-junky thinking - OH HELL YEAH! But then you realize that you can *barely* build things from scratch better than basic stuff. And when you can - it would cost, even with Talents and custom tools, workshop, droid help, etc. more than just buying the damn basic item and modding it.

There are work-arounds for this, naturally, but there are some arbitrary values FFG uses for crafting in order "balance" things. But honestly? it's so arbitrary in the face of what the stats and skills that your PC's possess, seems idiotic. You can have a super-genius PC with better skills and facilities short of a full blown industrial complex and they would have to use a little effort to product something barely better than what is readily available from scratch.

Mind you - this is to produce something from SCRATCH - not take something and mod the holy bejeezus out of it and make it far better than a stock piece of gear. There are rules for making better scratch-build gear, but the system requires a lot of unecessary rolls (taking apart a device and making a schematic out of it, and rinse/repeating that to accrue tons of booster dice on the next roll until you have a lot. Some people say this is against the rules, some say you can do it once, I allow you to do it up to the number of ranks of Mechanic's Skill you possess, because I want my PC's to benefit from their abilities.)

The ship-construction rules are about to drop. They need to re-codify the crafting rules writ-large. theyr'e great for modding existing stuff. But for making stuff on your own... they need reworking.