Quote from: Manic Modron;971045Seems harsh for a playable game people are enjoying.

That's just pro forma here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;971028It's not just you. The game is shit.

Much like your opinion. Awesome.

Quote from: RPGPundit;971028It's not just you. The game is shit.

Let me guess. Fantasy Flight Games didn't send you free swag? Eh hem... I mean they didn't send you a free evaluation copy of their game with dice so you could properly review it? :rolleyes:


I suspect this system would not be treated so harshly if they had.

No, he's right. They fucked the dog on this one, and are now in too deep to fix it. The telephone-book sized tomes could be cool if they had a nice balance of system and setting material; each is actually a dense hundreds-of-pages long slog of rules, and they overlap to a ridiculous extent. If you think they are good, spend an hour reading one and then go grab your 1E WEG Star Wars core book. A wave of ecstatic relief will wash over you like a cool and fragrant breeze.

Heh... for a moment I thought that "telephone book sized" was ridiculous hyperbole... but then I remembered how thin the telephone books that get delivered are these days.

I GMed WEG D6 Star Wars off and on for about 25 years. It is the RPG I have run most often. That said I have traded D6 in for FFG Star Wars.


There are faults with how the game is presented.

-Money grab: This game is not cheap. They are milking the Star Wars license for everything they can get out of it. Every book is a hard cover with a lot of modern style art. The dice sets are pricey. Even their smart phone app is pricey for what it is.

-Lay Out: The books are a nightmare to reference. The lay out is very unfriendly for looking anything up in play.



The game itself is fantastic. I ran one Edge of the Empire Campaign that eventually incorporated elements of the Rebellion and Force use for about a year and a half. I have begun a second campaign focusing on the Rebellion.

-NPCs work differently than PCs. I do not see a problem with this. Monsters in older versions of Dungeons and Dragons are set up differently than PCs. So it is with this game. The NPC differences in FFG Star Wars make opponents seem like they do in the movies.

Minions: Have hit points and can soak damage individually. But their abilities are enhanced in groups of like individuals. If you are a soldier type character a Stormtrooper minion by themselves will probably be killed by you in one shot. If you are a non combat focused character same Stormtrooper may take 2-3 attacks to kill. But a squad of a dozen Stormtroopers is a problem even to veteran PCs. There is no point where a squad of stormtroopers becomes totally trivial. This seems like the movies. 1 or 2 stormtroopers is a speed bump. A squad of Stormtroopers has Han and Chewie running through the halls of the Death Star on the defensive.    

Rivals: These are modestly skilled NPCs. They are leaders of squads, cunning merchants, or pilots that give the PCs a run for their money. They don't have access to certain things that PCS have, but are still a threat individually.  An equal number of Rivals to PCs is a heck of a challenge.

Nemesis: This type of NPC is built like a PC. They have access to all of the game subsystems the PCs have. They are usually a threat to multiple PCs by themselves.

Inquisitor: There is a 4th tier in the Force and Destiny line. The Inquisitor can do things that a PC can not. This type of NPC is made to be a major challenge for an entire group of 4-6 PCs single handedly.  

I really do not see how this differs in play from D&D. Let's say you have a group of orcs, their chieftain, and an evil fighter that has pressed the orcs into his service. You would have the equivalent to minions, rival and nemesis. If you are a new PC orcs are a problem. As you level they are less of a problem unless they are in large numbers. This is how it goes with FFG Star Wars. I have had minion groups route groups of veteran PCs on many occasions.


-Range Band: The books actually list what the range bands are in meters for personal scale and starship scale. Almost everyone is either using a blaster or a melee weapons. So you are either fighting with weapons with equivalent ranges or you are engaged in melee. There are no subtle range mismatches to exploit between weapons like their would be in D&D. Their is no short bow vs long bow vs crossbow. There are cases where some weapons reach farther. A Blaster Pistol only gets to short range. A Blaster Rifle can reach Long Range. Range bands speed things up. I already know if a room is within short range band of everyone. Larger rooms may get to medium. Outdoors may involve long and extreme range.  Again the equivalent distance in meters for a range band are given.

The range bands also help in vehicle chases. Getting to a closer range band or trying to open up distance is incorporated into the chase and combat rules. You know immediately if a shot just got easier or harder in a vehicle combat.
 
-"Special Dice": You actually do not need the "special" dice. The game uses D6s, D8s, D12s, and percentile. You build dice pools with those dice. One of the first things in the core book is how to use regular old numeric D6, D8, or D12s. Th "special" dice just make the process visually easier.

What is different than most RPGS is that there are 2 "axis" of things going on when you roll the dice. The first is the magnitude of your success or failure. The second axis is did complications arise, and if so what severity.

Success pips and failure pips cancel each other out. If you have at least one net success pip at the end you pulled off what ever you were trying.

Advantage and Threat pips cancel each other out. If you have net advantage pips in the end something beneficial happens. You might be able to get a critical hit with your weapon, catch extra opponents in a grenade blast, or gain increased access to a computer system during a hack attempt.

If you have net threat pips something bad happens. In the heat of battle your energy clip just ran out of power and needs replacing before you can continue shooting (you did bring extra clips right ). You hit a coolant line and it sprays mist that obscures your vision on subsequent shots.
 
This extra axis makes "Star Wars movie like" events happen. You need to fix subsystems on your old jury rigged rust bucket of a ship all of a sudden while TIE fighters are chasing you through an asteroid field. Once you gain some experience with quickly analyzing the dice pool results these cinematic quirks happen quickly and can add interesting twists to the situation.

Quote from: Larsdangly;971164No, he's right. They fucked the dog on this one, and are now in too deep to fix it. The telephone-book sized tomes could be cool if they had a nice balance of system and setting material; each is actually a dense hundreds-of-pages long slog of rules, and they overlap to a ridiculous extent. If you think they are good, spend an hour reading one and then go grab your 1E WEG Star Wars core book. A wave of ecstatic relief will wash over you like a cool and fragrant breeze.

Um yeah. There is relief until you get a PC or two with 6 or 7 dice in Dodge. Then they can walk into Stormtrooper barracks and kill everyone with impunity. A PC with the Bounty Hunter Template can start with 6 dice in dodge. I ran many long campaigns using D6 star wars. 1E, 2E and  2E revised. That system has problematic quirks.

A squad of Stormtroopers is a non threat to Seasoned PCs in D6. The same squad has the potential to injure or kill seasoned PCs in FFG Star Wars. That was the breath of fresh air for me.

Quote from: tenbones;970149That's my take. (you dirty malcontent)

Hey, you're the one who made the list, I was just helpin'.

I'd argue that in a skill-based game, the easiest way to represent a minion is...well...low skill.  D&D specifically has its own problem with the HP=Skill abstraction leading to "wading through hordes of lesser opponents" ability of high level characters.  However, in most systems where they are used, Minions are specifically not defined as low-skill opponents, but defined as "dramatically unimportant".  It's a minor quibble though. You're right, of course, minion rules can just not be used, and I can ignore the the teeth itch.

You're also right in that traditional ranges can be used, talent trees can be redone, you can give the system the "Only War" treatment, etc.  When you get right down to it, most systems can be wrangled into shape if you put on the hardhat and break out the blowtorch and jackhammer.  At some point , though, you realize you're not at that age anymore where for some miraculous reason you always have unlimited free time and you gotta ask yourself "Is this system worth the amount of work I'm gonna put in?"  Once you know what you have to Cut, Add, Fold, Spindle or Mutilate, what's left for the payoff?

With this system it might be the ship design & combat, crafting system, etc.  It might not.

Considering the cost and level of unconventional mechanics, I'd say this one is definitely a "Borrow or Pirate before you buy".

I do want to check out that fantasy hack.

Quote from: tenbones;969903Okay, one more time from the top . . .

Shine on, you crazy diamond.

At the end of the day, I'm not interested in collectible coffee-table rule books so the whole line was a turn-off to me, but for those who like this sort of game, this is definitely the sort of game they'd like.

Interesting, I just saw this: Edge of the Frontier: Western Hack for FFG's Edge of the Empire.

They release the rules under OGL or Creative Commons or something?

Is there a danger in thinking one system will work for many genres like this? Obviously some systems are designed as 'universal' like GURPS, but are there any games where the system and setting/skin are so intertwined that it wouldn't work with another genre replacing the original?

You guys like beating on a good game do you? The only gripe I have for the fantasy flight games version of star wars, is the core rules being reprinted in all three main core books, otherwise the game plays solid, every dice roll has good and bad elements happening at the same time adding drama to the over all experience, it feels more star wars universe to me, now I still love the d6 west end games version too, and admit I liked Saga d20, but I believe FFG hit it out of the park on this version of star wars, if you don't like it, cool with me, but I do and so does many other gamers, so no Christmas present for all you hates out their.

Quote from: jedimastert;971177Um yeah. There is relief until you get a PC or two with 6 or 7 dice in Dodge. Then they can walk into Stormtrooper barracks and kill everyone with impunity. A PC with the Bounty Hunter Template can start with 6 dice in dodge. I ran many long campaigns using D6 star wars. 1E, 2E and  2E revised. That system has problematic quirks.

A squad of Stormtroopers is a non threat to Seasoned PCs in D6. The same squad has the potential to injure or kill seasoned PCs in FFG Star Wars. That was the breath of fresh air for me.

Well in 1E any hit, even one that is less than the PC's STR roll puts the PC down for the round. If you beyond 1E then you are not using multiple action penalties. Shooting and dodging is at least two actions so dodge is now down to 5D or 6D. And you are not using combined actions. A squad of 10 stormtroopers gives a +4D bonus to their attack which is at least 3D to start. So 7D attack vs. 5D or 6D dodge. So the PC is hit and one stormtrooper goes down. Either the PC burns character points or they probably end up stunned or wounded which probably spells the end of the line for them. Next round the same thing happens. Unless the PC has lots and lots of CPs, running solo against a squad of stormtroopers is a bad strategy.

Quote from: jedimastert;971177Um yeah. There is relief until you get a PC or two with 6 or 7 dice in Dodge. Then they can walk into Stormtrooper barracks and kill everyone with impunity. A PC with the Bounty Hunter Template can start with 6 dice in dodge. I ran many long campaigns using D6 star wars. 1E, 2E and  2E revised. That system has problematic quirks.

A squad of Stormtroopers is a non threat to Seasoned PCs in D6. The same squad has the potential to injure or kill seasoned PCs in FFG Star Wars. That was the breath of fresh air for me.

This is not a system problem as much as it is a GM problem with not knowing small unit tactics or the rules.

Lets just look at a Bounty Hunter with 7 dice in Dodge who is being shot at by a squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty). Now for every extra action taken, you have to subtract a die from the skill roll that round. So the Bounty Hunter will roll 7D, 6D, 5D, 4D, 3D, 2D, 1D, 0, and 0 in Dodge against the stormtroopers - so statistically at least one of them (if not more) is going to hit the Bounty Hunter.

Don't like that? Lets look at another version using some ignored rules from the Gamemaster's Toolkit. Behold, the Combined Actions Chart!

Number Combined  Bonus
  1                        --
  2                        1D
  3                        1D+1
  4                        2D
  5                        2D+1
  6                        3D
  7                        3D
  8                        3D+1
  9                        3D+2
  10                       4D
  12                       4D+1
  15                       5D
  25                       6D
  40                       7D
  60                       8D
  100                      9D
  150                      10D
  250                      11D
  400                      12D
  600                      13D
  1000                     14D
  1500                     15D

Take that same squad of 9 stormtroopers in barracks each with an effective 3D in Blaster (4D skill, -1D for armor Dex penalty) shooting at the 7D Dodge Bounty Hunter (we will let the Bounty Hunter use all his Dodge skill dice to defend without dropping 1D for every extra action). The stormtroopers all firing in unison will get 6D+2 against the Bounty Hunter's 7D Dodge, which is still pretty damn good statistically.

This comes about from people not understanding the RAW, much  like the myth of the Blaster-Proof Wookie.

EDIT: And Bren beat me to it....

Quote from: lacercorvex;971286You guys like beating on a good game do you? The only gripe I have for the fantasy flight games version of star wars, is the core rules being reprinted in all three main core books, otherwise the game plays solid, every dice roll has good and bad elements happening at the same time adding drama to the over all experience, it feels more star wars universe to me, now I still love the d6 west end games version too, and admit I liked Saga d20, but I believe FFG hit it out of the park on this version of star wars, if you don't like it, cool with me, but I do and so does many other gamers, so no Christmas present for all you hates out their.

To be fair as the OP I don't hate FFG version of Star Wars. It's just not my cup of tea.