(the superhero theme rides on...)
I've been experimenting with some Champions games lately. I've said many times in the past that although I love GURPS, I feel that it breaks above a certain power level (an opinion that many agree with), so I when I'm in a super-heroes mood and still want the toolkit feel, I go to the Hero System.
I've don't see a lot of strong opinions on Hero, especially compared to GURPS. Why is that? Is it just the overbearing GURPS fans? Am I just hanging out on the wrong forums, where no tries it? I would think a lot of the same folk that dislike GURPS would dislike Champions for the same reason, but Hero games doesn't get as much venom directed at it (in my observation). They're both modular systems, and seem very similar to me, largely differing in combat 'feel' (realism vs cinematics), & what power level they handle.
I think I could really get into Champions if I hadn't invested so much time and money into GURPS by now.
I don't care for it. Its too complex for the return if gives. You end up doing more work than should be necessary for a game. I've played it and run it, and found Gurps far less bothersome. (Admittedly these days, I don't even find Gurps simple enough for my tastes.)
I like the idea of Champions, I just think it's way too complex for what it is supposed to be. When writing 6e, Steve Long should have started with 5eR and cut 200 pages. Instead, he added a whole extra book.
BASH does 95% of what Champions does, with a fraction of the rules.
My other big issue is how the rulebook nudges you to build everything, even minor equipment, using the powers rules.
Quote from: danbuter;470782I like the idea of Champions, I just think it's way too complex for what it is supposed to be. When writing 6e, Steve Long should have started with 5eR and cut 200 pages. Instead, he added a whole extra book.
BASH does 95% of what Champions does, with a fraction of the rules.
My other big issue is how the rulebook nudges you to build everything, even minor equipment, using the powers rules.
^This and get a calculator, a really good calculator.
I play Hero/Champions on a weekly basis and I find it to be a lot of fun and gameplay fast and simple to follow (we average 2-4 fights a nights of roughly 30 minutes to a hour in duration given a 5 hour session and non-combat tasks are handled by simple characteristic and skill rolls).
It can be a real builder's toolkit if that's what you like but I also know that Darren Watts, president of Hero Games, runs his games pretty off-the-cuff and so do many others. There is also the HERO Designer program and the various supplements filled with pre-fabricated powers, equipment, NPCs, as a GM, if you absolutely need to be anal about the math and/or have things set in stone.
Quote from: danbuter;470782BASH does 95% of what Champions does, with a fraction of the rules.
That's what I thought at first but BASH ended up being different in play - not that I hated it - more like a MSH that worked.
HERO is a technical masterpiece. It isn't all things to all people like GURPS tries to be nor does it try to be. There are many things it isn't and is ill suited to but solid Marvel in the late seventies and early eighties it does very well indeed.
But it is a creature of an earlier time and owes much of its nature to the hex and counter wargames. It is a book keeping nightmare for a GM who cannot bear to leave the 'i' undotted and the 't' uncrossed.
But it does what it does profoundly well and manages to do things within a decent radius of that well also. The thing I never feel it does well is money. If GURPS is broken by high points totals, then HERO is broken by cash and a catalog.
Quote from: David Johansen;470804HERO is a technical masterpiece. It isn't all things to all people like GURPS tries to be nor does it try to be. There are many things it isn't and is ill suited to but solid Marvel in the late seventies and early eighties it does very well indeed.
But it is a creature of an earlier time and owes much of its nature to the hex and counter wargames. It is a book keeping nightmare for a GM who cannot bear to leave the 'i' undotted and the 't' uncrossed.
But it does what it does profoundly well and manages to do things within a decent radius of that well also. The thing I never feel it does well is money. If GURPS is broken by high points totals, then HERO is broken by cash and a catalog.
Essentially; Hero has been a game I've played on and off again for 20 years. Parts of it frustrate the hell out of me, some of it is just amazing. We've run 75-point-character competent normals Call of Cthulhu type horror with it, and we've run 450 point powergaming fests in the middle of a mashup of the Marvel and DC universes, and everything in between.
One thing I find that Hero has a severe problem with is acceleration - I've never found a good way to model actual acceleration in Hero. During the run up to our current campaign (an alternate-universe Aliens type Universe where the horror is Cthulhu, not xenomorphs) I was trying to build the Sulaco and the dropships and while you can go zero-to-whatever in a single phase, slowly building up to that speed is just...very...very hard to do.
But yeah, I like it. I'm not
passionate about it like I am D&D; frankly I think Champions has gotten better with each edition (I haven't played six and I don't like the idea of "everything's bought, nothing's figured any more" so I may not) but that's because each edition has been just subtle tweaks. A 400 point Mechanon (think Ultron from the Marvel Universe) as statted up in the 3e Villains book is just as much a threat to 5e 250 point supers as he was back almost 20 years ago. What's been added have been clarifications, and new applications of the system to new powers - but the underlying math has stayed consistent. As a Christmas gift one year I got one of the guys in the group an issue of Danger, International! (like the first or second issue) and we played a supers game out of it but using characters built with 5e.
Overall I like Hero system for sci-fi, occasional horror, gadgety stuff, and superhero stuff. I don't like it for high or low fantasy (although how they handled Fantasy Hero this time around made it slightly more palatable), and as noted vehicle movement is wonky. But, again, yeah in the overall? Like it a lot.
I like Champions. They've got a lot of good books out there, and I've got a number of them around the house. I don't get a chance to play it as often as I'd like.
Unfortunately, it's complexity and how busy I am these days, means I'm more likely to run a simpler game, like Icons, than Champions these days.
It amuses me to no end that a game with phased movement can't do vehicle movement well.
I believe the solution is an SFB style impulse chart for vehicle movement that extends well past the 12 limitation of Speed chart. But I'm sure many people would blanch at the very though.
Yeah, GURPS does speedsters and vehicles better to a point. Enhanced Move has an acceleration equal to the character's move so if you have x8 Enhanced Move it will take you 8 seconds to reach full speed. GURPS breaks down in other places. Like the doubling progression on Enhanced Move in a very high points game.
Oh, okay. I'll bite.
Champions isn't an RPG. It's a single unit tactical superhero wargame. And it doesn't even do that well.
Quote from: daniel_ream;470817Oh, okay. I'll bite.
Champions isn't an RPG. It's a single unit tactical superhero wargame. And it doesn't even do that well.
I disagree, but only because I think tactical wargames require a much lighter touch than Hero system has or is capable of.
Once you start stripping things off of Hero to make it more agile on the tabletop you'd better just quit while you're behind and play the game you're trying to make it be.
Quote from: David Johansen;470809It amuses me to no end that a game with phased movement can't do vehicle movement well.
I believe the solution is an SFB style impulse chart for vehicle movement that extends well past the 12 limitation of Speed chart. But I'm sure many people would blanch at the very though.
I cannot imagine a game mechanics problem in the world that you'd call an "SFB style impulse chart" a solution for (except maybe for SFB).
I was big fan of original Champions back in the old days, but the over complication of the system turned me off.
Quote from: Spinachcat;470849I was big fan of original Champions back in the old days, but the over complication of the system turned me off.
This. I enjoyed playing and running 1st and 2nd edition Champions (although I preferred MSH), but after those early editions the (already fairly complex) game's complexity seemed to shoot through the roof.
I never really liked the point-buy system either. Players who enjoyed it and were skilled at it could easily create characters 50% to 100% more powerful at the same point level than those of causal players. I used to piss off the "point buy experts" when I ran games by deciding whether PCs were balanced and fit the campaign by eyeballing them instead of just checking their math.
Worse, I didn't care about the math -- I'd disallow mini-maxed characters with perfect math who were far more powerful than I wanted while accepting characters with flawed math but were the power level I had stated in the campaign description. Players were told I would do this before they made their characters, of course.
It got so I would tell players who weren't into the math to just create an interesting character about the power level of (I'd name 3 or 4 Marvel/DC heroes of the power level I was looking for) and don't worry about the math. The point buy experts were also annoyed that I did not waste my time carefully doing the math for all my NPCs, no matter how minor. I usually did the math for major villains , but when the point buy experts still did not like it because I did not bother to min-max my designs.
Side Note: I think I've always had more "casual players" in my games than I have had "hardcore gamers." This shows in my choice of games and my approach to them (and in my dislike of min-maxers and rules lawyers).
But...the thing is, it hasn't gotten more complex. They've moved the bar up (or down) on advantage costs and disads, and added more powers that most people had already thought of in their games as "standard". It's not like a "difference between 4e and 1e D&D" thing, really.
At least I don't see it that way.
Love the flexibility, the ability to craft anything you want.
In practice, too many players just don't grok the power system.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;470873But...the thing is, it hasn't gotten more complex.
Yeah, it really hasn't. I've never seen first edition core, but I played from 2nd edition onwards and had a number of 1st edition supplements. There have been additions (more powers, longer skill list, more Advantages and Limitations) but the core mechanics haven't changed in five editions.
And I LOLed at the "no, tactical wargames are lighter than Champs" comment :-)
Champions is what it is, but what really annoys me about it is not the game itself but rather the whole concept of point-buy that it inflicted on the industry.
I loved it when I played Champions. Its biggest weakness, IMO, is that it takes a GM with a real knowledge of the complex system AND a willingness to enforce the point buy restrictions and the disadvantages that are purchased.
The Disadvantages are where the chance for real RolePlay come into the system. I've been in some really fun RP sessions with Champions characters. One of the best was when this one Hero got sued by some bad guys who he captured. He had a Code vs. Killing and used a Stun Only energy attack(did ONLY Stun Damage, no Killing Damage). His secret ID was as a Lawyer. So, the GM thought it would be a good subplot to have him sued by this activist group and a sleazy lawyer. The player was all frustrated because there was no way in the system for the attack to do any killing wounds but the GM played it up that he had to go to court to prove it, with "Expert Witnesses"
The Hero prevailed in the end but all of us on the Hero team got called as witnesses to testify about all the battles we had witnessed.
I've been through other RP sessions with Champions, some entire sessions, some just a side note during a session. IMO, it all depends on the GM(imagine that) if you use the RP elements built into the system or not.
Champions isn't my personal GM style(I dislike Point Buy) but I'd play it again.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;470873But...the thing is, it hasn't gotten more complex. They've moved the bar up (or down) on advantage costs and disads, and added more powers that most people had already thought of in their games as "standard". It's not like a "difference between 4e and 1e D&D" thing, really.
At least I don't see it that way.
I'd agree that it's not like 4e and the original 1974 D&D. However, the 2nd edition Champions rules were 80 pages. The current 6th edition rules are 464 + 320 = 784 pages. Even though there is a lot of consistency in the core mechanics between these editions, I think there is a big change in how everything is handled. Even though the basics are all the same, it is more complex because of all the nitty-gritty details that were added.
I'm fond of HERO, but I find that it has a really difficult learning curve - especially in how to design characters. Right now I'm on vacation with my family and my son and nephews (9 to 11 years old) have insisted that I run the PS238 RPG, which is a stripped-down version of 5th edition Champions. It's going OK, but there are definitely some tricky points.
Bleh, FASERIP is about the only game in the genre I'll play. Blood Of Heroes is crap, Champions needs a physics degree, and all others suck eggs.
Quote from: jhkim;470904Even though the basics are all the same, it is more complex because of all the nitty-gritty details that were added.
I see what you're getting at, and Champions did explicitly say at one point that it was better to have a rule and not use than not have it when you needed it.
I think that the game has not gotten more complex (in terms of adding more rule subsystems which interact) but rather that the list of things in each subsystem (like skills, powers, Advantages, etc.) has increased, which leads to a kind of analysis paralysis/paradox of choice problem.
Then again, I'm only passing familiar with 5th and 6th ed. Have they actually added a lot of new rules in those editions?
Quote from: shalvayez;470905Champions needs a physics degree, and all others suck eggs.
Actually a physics degree is useless in Champions. Grade nine math perhaps if you insist on stacking a lot of power modifiers. GURPS on the other hand really does benefit from some basic physics.
All others sucking eggs is a bit broad in any case. Personally I never could stand FASERIP but it's a matter of taste.
Quote from: daniel_ream;470925Then again, I'm only passing familiar with 5th and 6th ed. Have they actually added a lot of new rules in those editions?
Having played since the dawn of 4th edition - when many of the guys at the table were using 2nd and 3rd edition stuff, still - I can tell you what they've done is they've gone through and taken a lot of powers that were spread out over quite a great many books, compiled them into the one big book, and then added even a few on top of those. They've gotten more verbose in their explanations of the rules...but they really haven't fundamentally added more rules. Like, up to version 5, PD and ED are CON/5 - period. That goes all the way back to 1st edition. OCV is still figured the same way, so is DCV. Overall levels still cost 10 points...
No, what they've added are little (and big!) powers here and there. But
rules? No. You can get Champions: Sidekick (or it may be Hero Sidekick) that is 90% of what you need to play - it just doesn't have as many examples and as many pre-built powers and skills. It weighs in about 1/5th the pagecount.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;470936They've gotten more verbose in their explanations of the rules...but they really haven't fundamentally added more rules.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;470936You can get Champions: Sidekick (or it may be Hero Sidekick) that is 90% of what you need to play - it just doesn't have as many examples and as many pre-built powers and skills. It weighs in about 1/5th the pagecount.
Well... Champions 6th is 784 pages in two volumes. The current version of Sidekick is called the "HERO System Basic Rulebook" and is 138 pages. So there are 646 extra pages in the current full rules compared to basic.
I would sort of agree with your first statement, that the extra space is a more verbose explanation that have the same core mechanics. However, your latter statement implies that the vast bulk of the full rules is examples, pre-built powers, and skills. I don't think that's true. Skills are longer, but are still only 44 pages total. Pre-built powers in the sidebars are no more than 10% of the Power Descriptions section - maybe 25 pages if you put them all together. The vast bulk of the extra stuff are those more verbose rules that discuss special cases, options, and so forth.
I shall now present the only thing you need to know to like Hero System, from the page 334 sidebar:
Throwing Badger: Ranged Killing Attack 1d6, Constant (+1/2); (22 Active Points), Obvious Accessible Focus (It's a badger; -1), Range based on STR (-1/4). Total Cost: 10 points.
Yes, one of the example powers is a Throwing Badger. Bask in the awesome. *Basks*
How it works? You throw it, it attacks as long as you pay attention to it, and it's a badger. Horrible complicated, I know, but that's the Hero System for you. :D
(Well, ok, you wait till your Phase and Initiative, make an attack role that no-one who champions THAC0 can possibly find reason to complain about, then roll 1d6 damage if you hit. That's Body (Health) damage; then multiply by 1d3 for Stun damage. Pay 2 Endurance then and every one of your Phases until you want your Badger to stop auto-hitting)
You must all be terribly confused by now.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471047I shall now present the only thing you need to know to like Hero System, from the page 334 sidebar:
Throwing Badger: Ranged Killing Attack 1d6, Constant (+1/2); (22 Active Points), Obvious Accessible Focus (It's a badger; -1), Range based on STR (-1/4). Total Cost: 10 points.
Yes, one of the example powers is a Throwing Badger. Bask in the awesome. *Basks*
How it works? You throw it, it attacks as long as you pay attention to it, and it's a badger. Horrible complicated, I know, but that's the Hero System for you. :D
(Well, ok, you wait till your Phase and Initiative, make an attack role that no-one who champions THAC0 can possibly find reason to complain about, then roll 1d6 damage if you hit. That's Body (Health) damage; then multiply by 1d3 for Stun damage. Pay 2 Endurance then and every one of your Phases until you want your Badger to stop auto-hitting)
You must all be terribly confused by now.
Good God, 22 points?! "I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that."<--THIS IS THE REFRAIN OF EVERY HERO SYSTEM PLAYER SINCE DAY 1
:D :D :D
Quote from: thedungeondelver;471050Good God, 22 points?! "I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that."<--THIS IS THE REFRAIN OF EVERY HERO SYSTEM PLAYER SINCE DAY 1
:D :D :D
Ha! Your logic-fu is weak! It is but 10 points to buy it!
:D
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471059Ha! Your logic-fu is weak! It is but 10 points to buy it!
:D
Good God! Ten points? I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that!
:D
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471059Ha! Your logic-fu is weak! It is but 10 points to buy it!
:D
22
Active points, which has to be compared against the GM's Power Active point Limit, and the DC checked to ensure it's not above the DC limit for the campaign, and zzzzzzz.
QuoteGood God! Ten points? I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that!
Make it a single Recoverable continuing charge of one minute (the badger eventually gets bored, and you have to go and get the badger if you want to use it again) (-1/2) to eliminate the END cost and add Reduced Penetration (-1/4) because badgers can't chew through chain mail.
Quote from: daniel_ream;470817Oh, okay. I'll bite.
Champions isn't an RPG. It's a single unit tactical superhero wargame. And it doesn't even do that well.
I don't entirley agree, but there is a kernel of truth to that.
Champions dwells too much on the combat mechanics and it leaves most of the rest of the game to either talking it out via magical princess dressup teaparty mechanics, or the almost insultingly almost insultingly simplistic mechanics of "roll 3d6 under your stealth threshold to sneak into the enemy base".
That said, the game lets me make pretty much any power set I want and puts numbers on super strength that I can put into physics equations. So as a launch point for magical teaparty it's really good.
-Frank
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471047I shall now present the only thing you need to know to like Hero System, from the page 334 sidebar:
Throwing Badger: Ranged Killing Attack 1d6, Constant (+1/2); (22 Active Points), Obvious Accessible Focus (It's a badger; -1), Range based on STR (-1/4). Total Cost: 10 points.
It has the opposite effect on me: it makes me dislike the Hero System. This is one of my biggest complaints about the system: every thing a normal human can do has to be bought as a power if a character wants to be able to do it in the game. Anyone (assuming they are strong enough) can pick up and throw a badger. If you have enough strength, you shouldn't have to buy some special throwing badger power to do so.
And yes, this is the same issue I have with many feats in 3.x games: they often cover things anyone should be able to attempt without taking any special ability/feat.
Quote from: daniel_ream;47106722 Active points, which has to be compared against the GM's Power Active point Limit, and the DC checked to ensure it's not above the DC limit for the campaign, and zzzzzzz.
Make it a single Recoverable continuing charge of one minute (the badger eventually gets bored, and you have to go and get the badger if you want to use it again) (-1/2) to eliminate the END cost and add Reduced Penetration (-1/4) because badgers can't chew through chain mail.
HA! Got it for
SIX POINTS - behold my minmaxing! :
Thrown Badger: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Continuous (+1) (30 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge which Recovers every 2 rounds (-1 3/4), OAF (-1), Restrainable (-1/2), Reduced By Range (Range Based on STR; -1/4), Inaccurate 1/2 OCV (-1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4)
Restrainable because if somebody grabs your hands you're not going to throw a badger anywhere; recoverable charge which recovers every 2 rounds (ever try to chase a badger down???), no knockback - it just latches on and claws, inaccurate (badgers aren't aerodynamic!)
WOO!
Now let the next challenger approach! :D
Bah! Amateurs! Just take a pet badger as a special effect and throw it at people.
Quote from: daniel_ream;47106722 Active points, which has to be compared against the GM's Power Active point Limit, and the DC checked to ensure it's not above the DC limit for the campaign, and zzzzzzz.
Make it a single Recoverable continuing charge of one minute (the badger eventually gets bored, and you have to go and get the badger if you want to use it again) (-1/2) to eliminate the END cost and add Reduced Penetration (-1/4) because badgers can't chew through chain mail.
Yeah, but then you only have one Badger. With the original Throwing Badger, you can throw Throwing Badgers until the proverbial undead cows come home.
Plus, the original Throwing Badger can't chew through chain mail, anyway - Chainmail has 6 resistant Physical Defense. Although I suppose you could use a Ranged Martial Maneuver with your Throwing Badger, which would probably SFX as throwing it at your target's face...
Quote from: RandallS;471107It has the opposite effect on me: it makes me dislike the Hero System. This is one of my biggest complaints about the system: every thing a normal human can do has to be bought as a power if a character wants to be able to do it in the game. Anyone (assuming they are strong enough) can pick up and throw a badger. If you have enough strength, you shouldn't have to buy some special throwing badger power to do so.
And yes, this is the same issue I have with many feats in 3.x games: they often cover things anyone should be able to attempt without taking any special ability/feat.
Dude, you're missing the point - anyone can find and throw a badger in Hero System.
With a Throwing Badger power, you don't have to look for one first and you have a potentially infinite supply of badgers (depending on the SFX of the power).
Quote from: FrankTrollman;471099I don't entirley agree, but there is a kernel of truth to that.
Champions dwells too much on the combat mechanics and it leaves most of the rest of the game to either talking it out via magical princess dressup teaparty mechanics, or the almost insultingly almost insultingly simplistic mechanics of "roll 3d6 under your stealth threshold to sneak into the enemy base".
That said, the game lets me make pretty much any power set I want and puts numbers on super strength that I can put into physics equations. So as a launch point for magical teaparty it's really good.
-Frank
Once again, your information is inaccurate - Hero System has no "tea party" mechanics; rules questions are not "talked out".
Let me quote from the actual rules:
"The 6E rules often use the phrase, “in the GM’s discretion,” meaning the GM has authority to allow an optional rule, choose between two rules, or the like. The intent there is to bring to the reader’s specific attention one of the key philosophies of the HERO System, which is that the GM can change any rule as he sees fit."
-
"While it’s usually safe to assume that something which isn’t forbidden is allowed, the final decision is always up to the GM. If he doesn’t want to interpret or use the rules the way you want to, his decision governs."
And while it's entirely possible a GM would just ask for a Stealth roll to get into an enemy base, it's equally as possible a 3.5e D&D GM could ask for both a Hide and Move Silently roll to sneak into a monster lair.
Of course, any GM that simplifies it that far is probably not that good a GM.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;471099Champions [...] leaves most of the rest of the game to either talking it out via magical princess dressup teaparty mechanics[...]
Okay, that description made me LOL.
A lot of games do that, sure, but I was thinking it over and I can't think of any obvious areas where Champions does this. Can you point to anything in particular?
Quote from: NarfAnd while it's entirely possible a GM would just ask for a Stealth roll to get into an enemy base, it's equally as possible a 3.5e D&D GM could ask for both a Hide and Move Silently roll to sneak into a monster lair.
Both games have simplistic pass/fail skill mechanics for what would be fairly lengthy and suspenseful scenes in their source fiction.
Quote from: NarfOf course, any GM that simplifies it that far is probably not that good a GM.
I think that's unfair to the GMs, when the game itself provides no rules, advice, or mechanics for anything but "roll Stealth to infiltrate the base". Champions and D&D up to 3.5 don't have anything like skill challenges.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;471061Good God! Ten points? I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that!
:D
Yes. Badgers are expensive. Instead take the Hero System rulebook, stick them in a bag and throw them. They should be heavy enough for a ranged killing attack these days. They can't be as expensive as a live badger!
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471159Dude, you're missing the point - anyone can find and throw a badger in Hero System.
With a Throwing Badger power, you don't have to look for one first and you have a potentially infinite supply of badgers (depending on the SFX of the power).
Exactly. Defining it as a SuperPower means that you've got a supply of them, you've practiced at it(you don't need a skill to do it) and all the other mechanics of the system. One of my favorite setups is the classic Gagdeteer like BatMan with a Gadget power pool that can be redefined as needed(with GM approval). I once made up a soldier type character who's Gadget pool was setup to be any Gun that he came across. Every mission, if there was time, I stated what gun or guns he was carrying but during a mission I often switched out whenever we took out bad guys so I could use whatever they carried. One of the benefits of that was that I only had to carry one or two magazines of ammo and let the bad guys supply the rest...
I know I've sounded like I'm championing (HA!) Hero System here, but there's plenty I don't like about it and I don't think it does "everything" well. I mean, there are people who do anything with any system, and yay for them, but that doesn't mean I want to go through the effort Example: a dear friend of mine and I got back in touch a number of years ago after an elongated absence from one another. He (Jeff) feels that Hero 5 should be the End of All RPG Systems. There's nothing (in his mind) Champions can't do. Right around this time I was working on some AD&D stuff, my campaigns were rolling (still are), and I was enthusiastically telling him about them and he sort of just cut me off midstride during a conversation and started in on how much better you can "do" AD&D - if you'll only use Hero System! Why, with just a few hours work you can even emulate AD&D's system of classes and levels!
Bleah.
Quote from: daniel_ream;471197I think that's unfair to the GMs, when the game itself provides no rules, advice, or mechanics for anything but "roll Stealth to infiltrate the base". Champions and D&D up to 3.5 don't have anything like skill challenges.
Yet, somehow, generations of GMs managed to do more than say "roll Stealth to infiltrate the base" without needing the game to have rules for "skill challenges".
In fact, let's do a little example:
"GM: The base is surrounded by 500 meters of barbed wire, with sniper towers every 125 meters. There is no coverage within 1000 meters of the fence. Fortunately, you still have that map of the minefield you bribed a grunt for; hopefully, he's taken the million and left, instead of telling his superiors. They'd probably want a cut, so you're fairly sure he chose the first option.
Now, you still have that Glorious Army truck you got from that firefight a week ago; the bullet holes would be less visible at night. However, you don't have any papers, so you'll have to steal or forge some. Unfortunately, those carry their own risks - Geof the Forger is tied into the criminal underground, so anything you order will be known by the area's Mob Boss within five minutes of you leaving. And whether you hit the Commissioner, one of the incoming supply trucks or raid that outpost thirty miles back, chances are someone will at least get a radio message out.
Or, you could sneak across the minefield and count on speed and confusion to get in and out right now. In which case, I've got a combat scenario prepared."
Now, you could say that's a "skill challenge" - Except you'd be wrong. That's strategy, tactics, logistics, combat - All done in-game. A dynamic situation in which the characters actual actions, moderated by dice rolls, determine the results. Role-play, not reducing a challenge down to a series of dice rolls.
And, if that's honestly not the kind of game you've been playing - If your GM's honestly reduce complex challenges down to single dice rolls - then I'm sorry you've had bad GM's.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;471211I know I've sounded like I'm championing (HA!) Hero System here, but there's plenty I don't like about it and I don't think it does "everything" well. I mean, there are people who do anything with any system, and yay for them, but that doesn't mean I want to go through the effort Example: a dear friend of mine and I got back in touch a number of years ago after an elongated absence from one another. He (Jeff) feels that Hero 5 should be the End of All RPG Systems. There's nothing (in his mind) Champions can't do. Right around this time I was working on some AD&D stuff, my campaigns were rolling (still are), and I was enthusiastically telling him about them and he sort of just cut me off midstride during a conversation and started in on how much better you can "do" AD&D - if you'll only use Hero System! Why, with just a few hours work you can even emulate AD&D's system of classes and levels!
Bleah.
I'm sorry to hear your friend cut you off. That's just rude.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471213Yet, somehow, generations of GMs managed to do more than say "roll Stealth to infiltrate the base" without needing the game to have rules for "skill challenges".
In fact, let's do a little example:
"GM: The base is surrounded by 500 meters of barbed wire, with sniper towers every 125 meters. There is no coverage within 1000 meters of the fence. Fortunately, you still have that map of the minefield you bribed a grunt for; hopefully, he's taken the million and left, instead of telling his superiors. They'd probably want a cut, so you're fairly sure he chose the first option.
Now, you still have that Glorious Army truck you got from that firefight a week ago; the bullet holes would be less visible at night. However, you don't have any papers, so you'll have to steal or forge some. Unfortunately, those carry their own risks - Geof the Forger is tied into the criminal underground, so anything you order will be known by the area's Mob Boss within five minutes of you leaving. And whether you hit the Commissioner, one of the incoming supply trucks or raid that outpost thirty miles back, chances are someone will at least get a radio message out.
Or, you could sneak across the minefield and count on speed and confusion to get in and out right now. In which case, I've got a combat scenario prepared."
Now, you could say that's a "skill challenge" - Except you'd be wrong. That's strategy, tactics, logistics, combat - All done in-game. A dynamic situation in which the characters actual actions, moderated by dice rolls, determine the results. Role-play, not reducing a challenge down to a series of dice rolls.
And, if that's honestly not the kind of game you've been playing - If your GM's honestly reduce complex challenges down to single dice rolls - then I'm sorry you've had bad GM's.
...
I want your man-baby's! ;) :D
(seriously good Narf. Wish I could give you +1 for that.)
Put me down for a vote of "don't like it, too complicated".
When it comes to supers, I just don't like point buy. I don't like Champions, don't like GURPS, don't like M&M.
For me, supers is all about heroes of wide range of (often random) abilities and not a cut and dry point total affair where I feel like I need a research assistant and an accountant just to do char gen. I'll stick with Marvel Super Heroes or Heroes Unlimited.
Quote from: jgants;471398Put me down for a vote of "don't like it, too complicated".
When it comes to supers, I just don't like point buy. I don't like Champions, don't like GURPS, don't like M&M.
For me, supers is all about heroes of wide range of (often random) abilities and not a cut and dry point total affair where I feel like I need a research assistant and an accountant just to do char gen. I'll stick with Marvel Super Heroes or Heroes Unlimited.
Fair enough. If it's not fun for you, it's not fun for you. :)
(Although you could always ask the GM to make your character, but that's a fish of a different discussion entirely)
Stealth Edit: *Backs away from Novastar* !
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471433Stealth Edit: *Backs away from Novastar* !
Excellent.
All is proceeding...as I have foreseen!
:p
One other gripe I'll include: Point-buy systems seem to forment "comic clone" characters, worse than Image did is the 90's.
"I'm like Wolverine, but Mexican!"
"He's like the Vision, but even more mechanical!"
"He's like Batman, but..."
Quote from: Novastar;471442Excellent.
All is proceeding...as I have foreseen!
:p
One other gripe I'll include: Point-buy systems seem to forment "comic clone" characters, worse than Image did is the 90's.
"I'm like Wolverine, but Mexican!"
"He's like the Vision, but even more mechanical!"
"He's like Batman, but..."
Well, that's good.
The main upside and downside of point-buy systems is the players can and will build anything they imagine. :p
OTOH, if you've got a martial-artist crime-fighter who uses gadgets, Batman is assumed to be in your character's family tree - Even if the theoretical player has never heard of Batman. Or, in other words, it's difficult to create anything without bumping into some sort of predecessor - So there should be some slack here.
Stealth edit: And really, the only place to get gadgets is either to be rich or an inventor, in which case your character is either an "obvious" rip-off of Batman or Batman and Iron Man. So, yeah.
I've always hated Champions. Ridiculously mechanical system, everything supers RPGs shouldn't be, and it had far too much influence in that genre of RPGs for far too long.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;471559I've always hated Champions. Ridiculously mechanical system, everything supers RPGs shouldn't be, and it had far too much influence in that genre of RPGs for far too long.
RPGPundit
The best rebuttal, I think, it to simply repeat this:
QuoteThrowing Badger: Ranged Killing Attack 1d6, Constant (+1/2); (22 Active Points), Obvious Accessible Focus (It's a badger; -1), Range based on STR (-1/4). Total Cost: 10 points.
Yes, one of the example powers is a Throwing Badger. Bask in the awesome. *Basks*
How it works? You throw it, it attacks as long as you pay attention to it, and it's a badger. Horrible complicated, I know, but that's the Hero System for you.
It's not uncommon to have characters that hit close to an archetype, but some of the clones I've seen are really too close (worse than Shazam and Superman!).
I mean, Ruce Bayne was just too close...
Quote from: RPGPundit;471559I've always hated Champions. Ridiculously mechanical system, everything supers RPGs shouldn't be, and it had far too much influence in that genre of RPGs for far too long.
RPGPundit
The reason I first picked it up was opening up the Champions 4e book and finding the page for Energy Blast. Compared to DC Heroes or FASERIP or whatever, "5 points per d6 of damage" seemed like a divine revelation in terms of system elegance. Now, the reality is never as sweet as the fantasy, but nonetheless, Champions is essentially a very straightforward system for running combat and benchmarking important non-combat abilities.
Half the fun of supers games is getting to be Batman or Wolverine. DC and Marvel RPG's are based on it. Not sure why people hate this idea.
Quote from: danbuter;471612Half the fun of supers games is getting to be Batman or Wolverine. DC and Marvel RPG's are based on it. Not sure why people hate this idea.
Cause invariably, it causes a bitchfest at the table.
"Wolverine can't do that! His healing factor isn't regeneration!"
"Batman would
never let a villain fall to his death! It's against his moral code!" <- said before Batman Begins came out, where Batman does exactly that
etc, etc, etc
It's also a case where a lot of established characters can have up to 70 years of backstory (Superman), and you're almost always guaranteed to have one fanboy out of the bunch for each superhero (Green Lantern and X-men, yo).
New characters, even a whole new setting, removes a lot of pedantic arguments at the table.
Quote from: Novastar;471667Quote from: danbuter;471612Half the fun of supers games is getting to be Batman or Wolverine. DC and Marvel RPG's are based on it. Not sure why people hate this idea.
Cause invariably, it causes a bitchfest at the table.
"Wolverine can't do that! His healing factor isn't regeneration!"
"Batman would never let a villain fall to his death! It's against his moral code!" <- said before Batman Begins came out, where Batman does exactly that
Agreed with both. Which is why I usually steer clear of established universes, or establish my campaigns as What Ifs/Elseworlds right off the bat. So I'd rephrase:
Half (maybe even
most) of the fun of supers games is getting to be Batman or Wolverine
minus the serial numbers and the baggage.