I haven't seen any, but I'm curious.
I've only played in one game that even uses it, and it seemed okay to me-but i don't think we actually used the rule or understood what it was for. Could explain how you see it factoring into a game? Just curious.
The only one I've seen where it worked pretty smoothly was Space: 1889. The problem was, the rest of the combat system in that game was difficult to understand. The speed of weapons was decent, just not the rest of explanation of combat.
QuoteCould explain how you see it factoring into a game? Just curious.
A system that has small weapons attacking faster/more frequently and slow weapons attacking slower/less frequently.
Quote from: B.T.;490727A system that has small weapons attacking faster/more frequently and slow weapons attacking slower/less frequently.
I don't like this sort of thing unless I get an equal advantage for large weapons, like being able to attack someone with a shorter weapon repeatedly unless they make some kind of saving throw.
Burning Wheel has benefits for small, fast weapons and long, slower weapons both, though many people find it pretty baroque.
GURPS kinda has this in that "unbalanced" weapons have to be readied between strikes, but it's more about axes/clubs vs other weapons than large vs. small.
I seem to remember some game where a long weapon against a short weapon would normally have an advantage but if the short weapon could get "inside" the long weapon's reach, the situation was reversed. I want to say it's Runequest III (Avalon Hill) but I'm not sure and I don't feel like dragging out my set at the moment.
The old Avalon Hill wargame/RPG hybrid Magic Realm had a really neat interaction of attack speed (which I think included effects of specific weapons) and maneuver speed. Basically attack vs. defense was a guessing game in which "smash" would hit "duck", "swing" would hit "dodge", and "thrust" would hit "charge". However, both attacks and defenses for a given character had "speeds". So if one attack was faster than another attack, it would happen first. Not only that, but if an attack was faster than the target's maneuver, the attack would hit automatically.
To further complicate the decision-making, doing things "faster" would limit your options and potentially fatigue you. So you might attack super-fast but then you couldn't choose a fast defense. And once you went over a certain amount of "speed" in your combination of attack/maneuver, fatigue would reduce your options in subsequent rounds.
And finally, if an attack connected with its target, the armor that it might hit was affected by the attack choice. E.g. a smash would be blocked by a helmet and could only cause damage if it was heavier than the helmet's strength. This meant that the Dwarf character, who had a super-fast Duck, could generally rely on his helmet, because other attacks would come after the maneuver and would miss.
Runequest 3 does a fair if rigid job with its strike rank rules.
GURPs is also pretty good, especially with the Martial Arts supplement.
Chivalry and Sorcery 3e has an action point system in which lighter weapons require fewer action points to attack and parry.
The recoil system in Twilight 2000 2e / Dark Conspiracy does a fair job of making great big guns sub optimal weapon choices, which is a place where many rpgs fall down.
Quote from: Cranewings;490732I don't like this sort of thing unless I get an equal advantage for large weapons, like being able to attack someone with a shorter weapon repeatedly unless they make some kind of saving throw.
Mine.
continuous initiative
smaller weaps are faster
larger weapns have more damage.
Quote from: David Johansen;490748Runequest 3 does a fair if rigid job with its strike rank rules.
I'm forgetting the details (again) but I thought in most versions of BRP that use SRs, you got a better SR by having a longer weapon (as well as higher DEX, SIZ, and/or INT). Yet I distinctly remember someone once saying that in their (houseruled?) RQ games, a guy with a dagger might get several attacks (and attack earlier) against someone with a heavier weapon.
So even if RQ as written may not quite do what the OP is looking for, the SR concept does provide a framework for it.
* * *
In kind of a weird way, the Fantasy Trip does weapon speed if you interpret the rules a certain way. Basically, beginning characters will tend to trade off DX and ST. ST determines how big of a weapon you can wield. DX is both your chance of hitting and your order of attacking. So in the usual course of play, it turns out that the guy with the smaller weapon will probably attack first, although armor will also slow a person down, and experience that's used to raise DX will speed that person up.
See Legends of the Ancient World (free rules, online) for a close clone of TFT.
Outlaws of The Water Margin does it well. Initiative and to-hit is set by the "Ease" of a weapon, which is basically how swift, balanced and facile to use it is.
It's not done much in any system I can think of, though its something you could probably houserule on to most systems fairly easy.
A quick and dirty method for d20, say
*light weapons give you a +2 or maybe +4 to initiative
*an initiative roll >20 gives characters a bonus attack 20 points later (i.e. 23 initiative = attacks on 23 and then 3.
Other systems sometimes let characters make multiple actions with some sort of penalty...you could reduce the penalty for characters using light weapons (e.g. Talislanta normally lets characters attack twice if they take a penalty of -5; you could add a combat style that uses light weapons and lets the wielder reduces the multiattack penalty to say -3).
From the Initiative (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14955668/Initiative) page...
And it might be a little easire to read there.
1.Initiative
i.Declared and Readied Initiative
ii.Some standardization of penalties:
iii.Rolling the Dice
iv.Action Speed
We have mentioned quite a few times that we use a continuous initiative system...
What does that mean? It means that combat initiative is kept continuously instead of stopping at the end of a round or a turn and starting again. A character in combat or in another initiative situation[1], after they have attempted a feat or action, will roll intitiative for their next action, and add it on from there.
This can often mean a character with a fast weapon might attack two or three times before a character with a slower weapon. However, since smaller weapons normally do less damage and have higher dividing dice, they penetrate armor less...It also accounts better for moving and movement., as well as for other actions.
Basically, back when we broke from earlier games, we were changing all of our speed rules, adding different speed factors to weapons, etc. And it made more sense for that guy with the dagger to keep swinging instead of waiting around for 10 seconds for the guy with the huge axe to make his move. We also removed the rate of fire with arrows (or anything outside the scrum) to be tied to the speed of melee weapons.
That dagger or small sword will normally have an Action initiative of two to four, while a halbard has a 10. But when the Halbard hits...watch out.
As we mentioned above, each initiative roll is a roll of the dice+ the speed factor of the action. The choice of dice is based on the proximity and effect of any local combat or encounter, martial or social. The Speed Factor is based on the action itself. Spells and weapons have speed factors, as do many actions.
Due to some events in game play recently, I have been asked to codify some procedures and set up some guidelines for certain common actions.
Declared and Readied Initiative
For the procedural side, there are 2 issues, readied items and declared initiative.
Readied items must be declared at the beginning of every session. One cannot expect everyone else to accept a character claiming to 'always have their scroll of 'Water's Way' in their hand'. Unless the say so in the beginning of a session. Many weapons also have lower 'readied speeds', as well.
Declared initiative is more of a disclosure, what a character is planning to do and with what. In other words, the GM needs to know if a spell is being cast and what the initiative is, if there are reagents, if it is coming from a scroll, where that scroll is, and etc. If that information is not ready and prepared, there will be a penalty of 5 and the GMwill ask the same question then. This is also when a player (or NPC, from behind the screen) mentioned any applicable skills they are using during this time, like Parry or quickdraw.
A target must also be declared when the action is readied, if it is a targeted action. If a player says they are getting out a potion from their sack, a target is not needed yet.
Some standardization of penalties:
•Unsheathing a weapon +1
•Taking more than ½ total HP in a blow +1-4
•Taking more than 75% of total HP in a blow +3-9
•Being damaged in the same or contiguous segments +1
•Waking up +5
•Getting something out of a pocket +1
•Reading a scroll +3
•Getting something out of a pack +7
•Getting up from the ground +2 (often added to waking up)
•Readied for a charge -2[2]
•Redirecting an attack (reroll init) -2
•Picking a weapon up from the ground +2
•Uncorking a potion +1
•Reading a scroll +5 to the spell init
•After being below 0 hp and healed +2-12
•Every 3 feet of ground that has to be made up +1, running to attack (or advanced every 20% of max speed)
•Every 2 feet of ground that has to be made up, while sneaking or casting +1
•Facing attack from a weapon with a 6" or more shorter reach...use readied speed for first attack[3]
Rolling the Dice
In that when rolling for initiative, the die rolled can be a d10, a d8, a d6, or a d4, depending on how deeply involved in a melee a character is .
•A d4 is rolled and added to the SF, and is used in the first round of a total surprise situation.[4]
•A d6 is rolled and added to the SF if the player is not affected by combat, is outside the combat and casting a automatic hit or group effect spell, targeting undead, etc.
•A d8 is rolled and added to the SF if the character is out of combat but is affecting by combat, i.e. shooting a missile weapon into combat, timing an entry into combat.
•A d10 is rolled and added to the SF If the character is in combat or has to account for dodging blows while attacking.
So, how it works in practice:
You roll the appropriate initiative die, add in the modifiers above and any other initiative bonuses, then add the current round and how fast your weapon/spell/action is. The resulting number is when you attack next.
So, its segment 1 of combat, and my weapon has a speed of 7, and I roll an 8 for iniative.
My next initiative will be 8 +0 (no modifiers) +7 (weapon speed) =15. I attack on segment 15 of combat. After I try to hit, Maybe the next round I have to attack a target 10 feet away. So I roll my d10+the speed of the weapon, 8, + 3 for every full 3 feet of distance. So if I rolled a 5, +8, +3, I get 16 that I add to my earlier 15, which means I dash across and attack on segment 31 next.
It should be noted that no skill, magics, or attibute bous is every subtracted from the roll. These are always applied to the weapon action speed.
Action Speed
This is the speed of the weapon, spell or action that is being attempted. Larger weapons are slower, so they have a higher action speed.
Please note that coordination, skills, and magic can adjust the Action Speed. However, the lowest Action Speed allowed is 1, unless specially adjudicated or in a few very specialized situations.Footnotes
1.Often in pre-combat situations, we start using initiative. The casting of spells, people moving into place, etc. ▲
2.This position also reduces the dividing die by 1. ▲
3.If a smaller weapon is attacking a larger one, the larger weap uses readies speed; and if the larger weap has already rolled init, the difference between melee init and readied init is subtracted before the smaller weapon is allowed to attack. Also remember that both a succesful charge and a succesful readied attack against a charge recieve a -1 dividing dice bonus. ▲
4.Remember that a succesful surprise attack recieves a -1 dividiing die for damage; and that bonus can be increased upwards with the backstab skill. ▲
Quote from: LordVreeg;490749Mine.
continuous initiative
smaller weaps are faster
larger weapns have more damage.
full-fat Omnifray does this too (with the added concept of weapon reach meaning the guy with a longer weapon may get to attack first when the combatants first engage as the other guy has to step inside his reach... but after that, the guy with the shorter weapon is attacking quicker - and in fact daggers do a lot of damage but don't give good defensive bonuses or "to-hit" bonuses because you are assumed to be often held at a distance by your opponent, but when you do stab successfully, it's lethal), although by way of fair disclaimer, people often consider it to be fairly complicated... and the game which is going to replace it, Soul's Calling, drops the differential initiative of different weapons because I found it fiddly, in the sense that I sometimes slipped up running it, and didn't always trust other people to run that aspect of the game correctly... but it wasn't disastrous, a lot of people liked it
the thing to bear in mind is that a person might be quicker stabbing with a dagger than casting a spell, but slower casting a spell than hitting with a two-handed sword - what do you do if they are holding the dagger when they cast the spell, or attacking with dagger and bastard sword at the same time, etc. - or charging with a dagger versus charging with a long spear (dagger attacks should be quicker than spear attacks, but if you charge with a spear you should attack before the guy who is charging at you with a dagger, and neither weapon should affect your running speed...)
There are a lot of potential variables.
Sense we are posting our home brew, in my game, Critical Edge, reach is totaled by adding the height of the character to the length of his weapon. If two characters go into melee, and the round starts with them far enough apart the the guy with the shorter weapon can't hit, the guy with the longer gets a 4 point initiative bonus. If both can hit, the guy with the shorter gets a four point bonus. CE is closer to rocket tag than even 3.5, so going first is huge.
Hackmaster Basic has elements similar to Vreeg and Omnifray.
When two combatants first engage, first strike is given to the opponent with the longer weapon, and there are rules for the opponent to try and keep the guy with the shorter weapon at bay.
Once combat is engaged, there are no rounds, initiative is a continuous "Count Up" system, where smaller weapons have a faster speed and will attack more often then slower weapons, provided you can get within reach.
All of this is tacked on pretty seamlessly to a familiar, D&D-like combat system.
Quote from: CRKrueger;490800Hackmaster Basic has elements similar to Vreeg and Omnifray.
When two combatants first engage, first strike is given to the opponent with the longer weapon, and there are rules for the opponent to try and keep the guy with the shorter weapon at bay.
Once combat is engaged, there are no rounds, initiative is a continuous "Count Up" system, where smaller weapons have a faster speed and will attack more often then slower weapons, provided you can get within reach.
All of this is tacked on pretty seamlessly to a familiar, D&D-like combat system.
Pretty much the reverse how I got there. Back in 83, when I started this mess, I was still using rounds, but by 86, I had moved to continuous.
And Similar, longer and readied weapons have lower initiative. But we have a random element, so oe never knows....
Quote from: TristramEvans;490764Outlaws of The Water Margin does it well. Initiative and to-hit is set by the "Ease" of a weapon, which is basically how swift, balanced and facile to use it is.
Wait.. there's a game of this?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;490825Wait.. there's a game of this?
If he's referring to Paul Mason's game (and I'm pretty sure he is), take a look here (http://firedrake.org/panurge/outlaws.htm) (and here (http://firedrake.org/panurge/)). Paul Mason's old 'zine Imazine (http://firedrake.org/panurge/imaz.htm) is also worth a look.
Quote from: John Morrow;490836If he's referring to Paul Mason's game (and I'm pretty sure he is), take a look here (http://firedrake.org/panurge/outlaws.htm) (and here (http://firedrake.org/panurge/)). Paul Mason's old 'zine Imazine (http://firedrake.org/panurge/imaz.htm) is also worth a look.
Indeed. I discovered OoTWAM by way of Imazine back in '01, and have been rather enamoured with the system since. I guess it's more obscure than I would have thought (it probably deserves a mention in the "Most Under-rated" thread).
Well if we're going down that road...
Galaxies In Shadow rates every character with a "Free Load" rating in grams based on their Strength score.
Weapons 1/4 of that or less can be used one handed as Light weapons and can attack or parry twice in the same second and take one second to ready.
Weapons between 1/4 and 1/2 can be used one handed as normal weapons or two handed as making an attack or parry each second and take two seconds to ready or used two handed as light weapons.
Weapons between 1/2 and Free Load can be be used one handed as heavy weapons and require a second to recover beween attacks and take four seconds to ready or can be used two handed as normal weapons.
Weapons between Free Load and 2x can be used two handed as heavy weapons.
Free Load is also used to control recoil with light recoil allowing the weapon to be fired without losing any accumulated aiming bonus. Medium recoil weapons lose their bonus but can continue to fire. Heavy recoil weapons must be readied again before firing.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;490753I'm forgetting the details (again) but I thought in most versions of BRP that use SRs, you got a better SR by having a longer weapon (as well as higher DEX, SIZ, and/or INT). Yet I distinctly remember someone once saying that in their (houseruled?) RQ games, a guy with a dagger might get several attacks (and attack earlier) against someone with a heavier weapon.
So even if RQ as written may not quite do what the OP is looking for, the SR concept does provide a framework for it.
* * *
Yup, RQ3 did exactly the opposite of what the poster was looking for. Big, long weapons were quicker to use than small, short ones. It was one of the unintended consequences of monkeying around with the Strike Rank system in RQ2 to make combat more flexible. There were loads of house rules to deal with it but mostly you just glossed over it.
If I remember correctly Lee Golds "Lands of Adventure" had a detailed weapon length/speed/recovery system...seemed nifty enough in theory though I never actualy played it!
That system was DETAILED but some cool ideas.
Some systems have str./dex. mins. for weapons that, if you have excess, allow you to strike faster etc.
This coupled with weapon/character reach allows for allot of detail.
Gotta work inside to play the dagger...:)
Quote from: skofflox;490910Some systems have str./dex. mins. for weapons that, if you have excess, allow you to strike faster etc.
This coupled with weapon/character reach allows for allot of detail.
Gotta work inside to play the dagger...:)
Indeed, my friend.
(Vermortis is missed, BTW)
:)
AD&D did it, but since it was probably the most-ignored rule of that game in practice, I'd say it probably didn't do it "well".
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;491135AD&D did it, but since it was probably the most-ignored rule of that game in practice, I'd say it probably didn't do it "well".
RPGPundit
Every group I ever played with used weapon speed. It was the weapon type bs armor type modifiers we ignored.
I used weapon type vs. armor at least when I was running OD&D + Greyhawk, possibly because this was facilitated by the "Dungeon Tac Cards" sold by Judges Guild. Not sure if I still used it with AD&D 1e (the values changed, and I didn't have cards to distribute), but I never used the weapon speed rule.
One thing about simulating the effect of weapon speed by having it affect initiative or allowing extra attacks is that most combat systems are actually abstracting a whole lot of action (maneuvers, feints, beats, blows) into a single combat round. (Gygax was explicit about this in some of his commentary.) Therefore while you could use initiative and extra attacks, you might get better results (from a perspective of modeling outcomes), by increasing the chance of hitting, increasing crit chances, increasing damage, etc. Or you might figure that these have already been rolled into the existing system and no modification is needed.
Of the major systems that I know, I think GURPS 3e does the worst job of pretending to be swing-by-swing without really representing the dynamics of position and maneuver. Essentially, a person with an ax gets 1/2 as many opportunities to damage their opponent as someone with a sword (2/3 as many if both sides always feint); attacking has virtually no effect on your ability to defend (except if you choose all-out attack or defense), and you can't really be forced "off balance" with a desperate response to a nearly-successful attack; you can arbitrarily choose the location you're trying to hit, and although this affects your attack chance, it doesn't interact in any way with what the defender is doing.
Not sure if any of this was changed in 4e. But I think the design of a combat system should either properly abstract and design-for-effect (which means that details such as weapon speed may not be directly represented), or it needs to account for dynamic interactions in its detailed representation. Of the latter, I think Burning Wheel and The Riddle of Steel at least make credible efforts, even though I'm not crazy about the result in either case. The best RPG I've seen (on paper) that has something like this is Jim Dietz's Swashbuckler 2e, although I don't remember how much it handles weapon speeds per se.
Quote from: Cranewings;491138Every group I ever played with used weapon speed. It was the weapon type bs armor type modifiers we ignored.
we used only speed at firstm then the vs armor type later.
I spent hours adding 'armor type as' into the MM for every entry.
then later, I used a d10+weap speed/d6 + spell segments in every combat rounds to determine initiative (I still use that in my Accis d20 rules)
Quote from: Cranewings;491138Every group I ever played with used weapon speed. It was the weapon type bs armor type modifiers we ignored.
We never used either. Of course, I'm more of a RC D&D type of guy.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;490753I'm forgetting the details (again) but I thought in most versions of BRP that use SRs, you got a better SR by having a longer weapon (as well as higher DEX, SIZ, and/or INT). Yet I distinctly remember someone once saying that in their (houseruled?) RQ games, a guy with a dagger might get several attacks (and attack earlier) against someone with a heavier weapon.
That must be a common house rule - it's exactly what we did with RQ2/RQ3, and something like it will feature in AEON as an option. Use the SRs RAW while opponents keep their distance, but once one manages to close (through a successful Dodge roll, or Manoeuvre if using the RQ4 playtest rules, or simply through running out of room) the SRs become reversed. It's actually pretty simple to apply in RQ3 as weapon SRs range from 1 to 3: long SR1 weapons become SR3, short SR3 weapons become SR1, and your typical SR2 sword stays SR2. It was a bit more complex in RQ2, where SRs ranged from 0 to 4, but the principle was the same.
It's a nice, simple way of adding a bit of tactics to combat, and making short weapons useful again. Best of all, and this is important for a simulationist game like RQ, it reflects reality (as well as can be expected).
Worlds of Wonder had a relatively simple weapons vs. armour matrix, but that was because there were few examples of either in that most minimalist of generic RPG systems. That sort of thing can get cumbersome pretty fast once you have lots of armour types.
That sounds familiar but I still can't be bothered to dig out my rq2/3 rules at the moment.
I do remember pretty clearly that attacking multiple times with a single melee weapon isn't allowed in either edition unless you've got > 100% skill. But the house rule applied the SR rule from missile weapons, so you could attack more than once if your SR was low enough.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;491713But the house rule applied the SR rule from missile weapons, so you could attack more than once if your SR was low enough.
Did that, too! It made more sense that the business of splitting 1 high-probability attack into 2 or more low-probability attacks (of at least 50% chance each). You still couldn't carry over SR into the next round (mainly because that got complicated really quickly), but if you were very fast with a dagger and got close to someone, you could poke them 2 or 3 times in that round.
However, it's not so satisfactory with long weapons kept at distance, because it's less realistic that two halberdiers whack each other multiple times in the same round at great speed.
Nevertheless, it's one of the best simulations I've come across so far. But it is, admittedly, not fast-flowing.
Quote from: Vile;491715Did that, too! It made more sense that the business of splitting 1 high-probability attack into 2 or more low-probability attacks (of at least 50% chance each). You still couldn't carry over SR into the next round (mainly because that got complicated really quickly), but if you were very fast with a dagger and got close to someone, you could poke them 2 or 3 times in that round.
See, I think that's an example of possibly misapplying/misinterpreting an abstraction (as I described in a post further up) since what it results in is, all of the sudden, having a low SR can double your effectiveness rather cheaply compared to just doubling your skill. Not that I would get all religious about it, but RQ 2/3 melee is one of those examples where I think each round is supposed to represent a "flurry of activity", with the attack rolls representing the overall effectiveness of one's efforts to harm one's foe, rather than individual swings. Under this interpretation, if you're faster, you might get the first chance to damage your opponent, but whatever improvement in your chance of doing so should just be represented by a higher attack percentage--which in many versions of BRP (and near relatives such as Harnmaster) does derive from higher dexterity.
Re: carrying SR into the next round, actually, I played RQ for a while with a group that did just that, effectively turning combat into a continuous impulse system. Believe it or not, they wrote a program that ran on their Mac Plus to keep track of who could act when.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;491793See, I think that's an example of possibly misapplying/misinterpreting an abstraction (as I described in a post further up) since what it results in is, all of the sudden, having a low SR can double your effectiveness rather cheaply compared to just doubling your skill. Not that I would get all religious about it, but RQ 2/3 melee is one of those examples where I think each round is supposed to "flurry of activity", with the attack rolls representing the overall effectiveness of one's efforts to harm one's foe, rather than individual swings. Under this interpretation, if you're faster, you might get the first chance to damage your opponent, but whatever improvement in your chance of doing so should just be represented by a higher attack percentage--which in many versions of BRP (and near relatives such as Harnmaster) does derive from higher dexterity.
Re: carrying SR into the next round, actually, I played RQ for a while with a group that did just that, effectively turning combat into a continuous impulse system. Believe it or not, they wrote a program that ran on their Mac Plus to keep track of who could act when.
we had the same programming witten up in the late 80s. we use a script for IRC as well.
AD&D's speed factors aren't really difficult. They are explained in a truly horrible fashion, which makes them very difficult to understand. Not difficult to use once you understand them, though.
In AD&D, weapons are all given speed factors - lower the integer, the faster the weapon. Weapon speed is used to break initiative ties when both sides are using weapons, and to determine whether a spell is disrupted if an attacker uses a weapon on a caster in melee.
1. Tiebreaker uses:
If opponents using weapons in melee tie on initiative, instead of resolving simultaneously, the faster weapon goes first.
IF it breaks the tie, AND the two combatants spend the melee round in combat (no charging, no closing to melee), AND the faster weapon is either 2x faster or at least 5 points faster than the slower one, the faster weapon gets one instant extra attack, also before the opponent goes.
IF the above is true, and the faster weapon is 10 points faster, the faster weapon gets a third attack at the normal "simultaneous" time. Bo, jo, fist, dagger, and short sword get this third attack against an awl pike. It's never used otherwise.
2. Disrupting spellcasting. Subtract attacker's weapon speed from attacker's initiative roll, discarding negative signs on results. If the number is equal to or lower than the casting time of the spell, it's disrupted.
--- Examples.
A thief with a dagger (speed factor 2) is in melee combat with a pikeman using an awl pike (speed factor 13). They tie on initiative. The thief gets to strike twice before the pikeman gets to hit, then they both strike simultaneously. This is as complicated as this rule gets.
A wizard tries to cast a fireball (casting time 3) while in combat with an orc armed with a battle axe (speed factor 7). The orc gets a 4 for his initiative. Four minus 7 is (disregarding the negative) a 3. This is equal to the casting time, and the spell is disrupted. This is as complicated as this rule gets.
We always used speed factors when we played 2nd ed. They only really do have the job though; it lets the guy with the knife go first, but doesn't give him any extra attacks compared to the guy with the claymore.
HackMaster Basic/Advanced HM uses a continuous initiative so of course weapon speed is tracked as a matter of course. Also, as characters advance they can spend BPs(Building Points), that are gained every level, to specialize in various areas of weapon skill, one of which is Speed. So, after a few levels you have some characters who are much faster with a weapon than normal. It makes a good force of choices of if you want to go with a faster, but less damaging weapon, or if you want a slow, more massive weapon that does more damage.
Okay, I finally looked up the rule in RQ3. Briefly, your strike rank in melee is a sum of numbers derived from your DEX and SIZ, and your weapon's length. The larger each of these is, the less it adds to the sum.
People attack in strike rank order, counting up from 1.
If someone (usually with a shorter weapon) wants to "close" with an opponent, they can do so but must add 1 to their SR on that round. The opponent can maintain the distance by also adding 1 to their SR, provided there's room to give ground. If the distance isn't maintained, then the combatants are in close range of each other. The effect of this is that the person with the shorter weapon automatically attacks on strike rank 1, while the person with the longer weapon can only do one of attack, parry, or dodge during the round. (Ordinarily you can do two out of those three.)
If both characters have the same length weapon (I think this means "same SR modifier"; a difference of a cm doesn't matter), then both suffer the penalty.
One thing to note is that you could have a shorter weapon and still attack first against a longer weapon, provided you have an advantage in reach (SIZ) and/or dexterity. But you'd still have an incentive to close and reduce your opponent's actions.
Scion does weapon speed very, very well. Basically, there's a wheel that is used for initiative, whereon everyone has their initial starting position. Each action takes a certain number of "ticks" (basically action points) which move you around the wheel. That way, someone with a small, fast weapon is going to attack more often than someone with a large clumsy one.
Wu Xing has a similar system in it, although instead of a wheel there are a series of tracks. You start at the top of the track and everyone acts in turn, moving their marker X amount of spaces based on speed.
As I see it, there's a basic set of elements to weapon speed systems. There's little sub-systems and corollaries, but these are the basic elements.
1. One or more advantages given to fast weapons.
2. Frequency advantage is brought into play.
3. Procedure for implementing the advantage as it comes into play.
So. Fast weapons get an advantage - earlier hits or more of them or whatever. Those are the most common, but others can easily be imagined. It's good when it's evocative and "feels" speedy, it's bad when it doesn't feel speedy, or distorts play in a way that "feels" unrealistic.
Advantage comes into play more or less often. Either always - a permanent bonus to initiative or number of attacks, or less often, only when there's a tie on initiative, maybe only when you choose to close in. It is good when it comes into play often enough to feel important, it is bad when it doesn't come into play often enough or when it comes into play so often it's boring or subsumed into the math.
And then there's the procedure you go through to implement the advantage. Perhaps as simple as factoring in a bonus to initiative when you create your character and never modifying it again. Perhaps as complicated as dynamically modifying a number based on range, fatigue, weapon length, burst length, surprise. It's good when this is simple. It's bad when it's complex.
Evaluating the system I'm most familiar with, AD&D.
Advantages - attack sooner, attack more often, disadvantages - faster weapons do less damage. F
I'd give this an 8. You get multiple advantages, it's useful to disrupt spellcasters, but not so useful that everyone will use fast weapons. Still, it doesn't "feel" terribly realistic - but not in glaring contravention to notions of reality. It's abstractly faster, which is why it's so high - I like abstract, as long as it "makes sense".
Frequency - about 1 in 12 rounds you'll melee a caster, or tie a weapon user on initiative. Happens often enough to feel like you're getting an advantage for having a faster weapon, but rarely enough that it doesn't just fade into the background math - it's notable when it comes into play, but rare enough that it doesn't bog down the game.
I'd give this a 10. Intermittent is better than constant, if your goal is to make a system "notable". The whole goal is to make weapons "feel" fast. Much of the time, it won't matter that your weapon is fast. But when dueling with another weapon user, it becomes a big deal. When trying to stop a spellcaster, it's extremely important. The system draws attention to itself sometimes, and is invisible other times. A good balance of how often it comes up - if it came up every round, perhaps by a permanent static bonus to initiative or number of attacks, it would quickly become banal.
Procedure - Find weapon speed factors from chart, spell casting time from book. Two possible processes, either subtract and compare or compare and choose one of multiple results based on magnitude of difference. Somewhat complex, requires a chart lookup on the DM's part (unless he's memorized all the speed factors). The player can just write theirs down.
Maybe a 3. A 1 if you have to try to figure out how it works cold - the explanation is very, very bad. Subtraction, chart lookups, comparison? It could be more elegant, have fewer steps. It could very much be improved by having 3 categories of speed, "Fast, Normal, Slow". Or, have the weapon speeds and casting times simply add to a person's initiative - which is rolled "lower is better". Something like 2nd edition, if I remember right.
Quote from: LordVreeg;490749Mine.
continuous initiative
smaller weaps are faster
larger weapns have more damage.
Yeah, continuous initiative (Exalted2, Scion) does this pretty smoothly. Of course magical "large" weapons can be as fast as a dagger, if that's their enchantment...
So what happens if someone attacks with a slow weapon and his target simply moves out of range of the attack? The attack automatically misses or what?
Is that addressed to any of the specific systems that have been described?
Any and all, I suppose. I have no experience in the area, unfortunately.
Quote from: B.T.;492300So what happens if someone attacks with a slow weapon and his target simply moves out of range of the attack? The attack automatically misses or what?
Well, with fluid initiative, move actions also take up some time? Not sure what you're getting at here.
Example:
Danny Daggerman and Zach Zweihanderman are fighting. We roll for initiative, Danny will go on "2", Zach on "4".
GM says "1", nobody does anything.
GM says "2", Danny says, "I close with Zach!" Moving takes 3 segments. Danny will now act on 5.
GM says "3", nobody does anything.
GM says "4", Zach says "I attack." Attacking takes 3 segments with a big sword. He hits or misses or whatever. Zach will now act on 7.
GM says "5", Danny says "I attack." Attacking takes 2 segments with a dagger. He hits or misses or hwatever. Danny will now act on 7.
Or whatever length of time the system assigns to various actions. I've seen systems where moving a Very Short distance was just 1 segment, etc.
Quote from: B.T.;492300So what happens if someone attacks with a slow weapon and his target simply moves out of range of the attack? The attack automatically misses or what?
In a continuous initiative system like Exalted, if you move out of the reach of your target before the next time they attack, then they can't attack you.
However, everyone moves on every "tick" being a moment of time roughly equivalent to 1 second. So a slow weapon doesn't mean slow movement.
Quote from: JDCorley;492324Well, with fluid initiative, move actions also take up some time? Not sure what you're getting at here.
Example:
Danny Daggerman and Zach Zweihanderman are fighting. We roll for initiative, Danny will go on "2", Zach on "4".
GM says "1", nobody does anything.
GM says "2", Danny says, "I close with Zach!" Moving takes 3 segments. Danny will now act on 5.
GM says "3", nobody does anything.
GM says "4", Zach says "I attack." Attacking takes 3 segments with a big sword. He hits or misses or whatever. Zach will now act on 7.
GM says "5", Danny says "I attack." Attacking takes 2 segments with a dagger. He hits or misses or hwatever. Danny will now act on 7.
Or whatever length of time the system assigns to various actions. I've seen systems where moving a Very Short distance was just 1 segment, etc.
See, I was thinking that it Zach would declare his attack and the attack wouldn't be rolled until seven.
QuoteIn a continuous initiative system like Exalted, if you move out of the reach of your target before the next time they attack, then they can't attack you.
However, everyone moves on every "tick" being a moment of time roughly equivalent to 1 second. So a slow weapon doesn't mean slow movement.
That's what I figured. Moving for free each tick would help, though.
Okay, it's not a problem with AD&D 1e, or at least not much of one since weapon speed is mainly a matter of "who attacks first (and maybe gets multiple attacks)" and that can be independent of movement.
I don't remember what the rules say, but I'd assume you move and then attack. You can't attack someone and then move away. For that matter I'd usually rule that if you disengage from melee, your opponent gets a free attack.
A slightly more elaborate approach (similar to TFT) is that everyone moves, then everyone attacks in initiative order.
An interesting alternative for D&D would be to have everyone attack, and then everyone move.
In TFT per se, winning initiative just means that you have the choice to move first or to make the enemy move first. After movement, you attack in order of dexterity. You could move up to half your movement allowance and still attack.
1e AD&D has group initiative, both sides declare what they're going to do - movement and attacks - and then initiative is rolled. After initiative is rolled, the side that goes first moves and attacks according to whatever they declared, all at once. Then the side that lost initiative has their moves and actions go off - often they get disrupted because the situation has changed.
Quote from: LordVreeg;490945Indeed, my friend.
(Vermortis is missed, BTW)
:)
good times...still work'n till 10pm...:(
I trust all is well with you and yours this holiday season!
(hey, some new emoticons...)
Quote from: skofflox;493414good times...still work'n till 10pm...:(
I trust all is well with you and yours this holiday season!
(hey, some new emoticons...)
All goes pretty well. Part of my job is still running retail, so the next two months will be hell with 2-4 days off combined over both months.
Steel ISle hit session 101 recently. Vernortis would not recognize anyone except Squire Astell. There has been...Turnover. And not so much with the players. For something that was supposed to be more of a pure online crawl, it has morphed into a full-fledged roleplay fest. Session 101 was spent with the group relaxing after returning from the Vexchian ruins, and meeting up with Eddon and the rest of Eddon's Folly in the Iambic Treblehorn, and proceeding to get drunk toasting to absent friends.
(there were no init rolles for drinking, sorry to the OP).