Just curious if anyone is playing these types of games here. While I'm making a purposeful shift away from D&D related fantasy, it seems like OSR type games (which aren't for me personally given my shift) fit into that space. I don't have alot of experience with them (basically zero in the fantasy genre beyond just reading the rules) but I find myself drawn to them more and more in theory. I specified traditional traditional RPGs because I'm not referring to narrative/"story" games but rather those with a classic GM/player division, story structure, and defined actions. I suspect most folks here playing rules light are likely doing so through the OSR route (that I'm also equally unfamiliar with to be honest). How much longevity is there in these types of rulesets for campaigns? Do you get enough variety in character options for long term play? If you are regularly playing these types of games, which ones are you using?
Yep. I am running a bi-weekly Old School Essentials (OSE) game and I love it. Character creation is a breeze, there aren't a lot of rules and where there isn't a rule, the DM decides and goes from there.
Old School Essentials is based on the old B/X (Basic/Expert) rules that an earlier version of D&D used, but OSE is cleaned up, mistakes fixed and things are explained better.
One suggestion for better assistance; rules light is VERY subjective... if your frame of reference is PF1e or HERO or Exalted 3e then nearly anything is rules light. For others, BECMI is mid-crunch and 1e WEG Star Wars or Ghostbusters might be considered rules light.
Basically; give us an example of what you consider too crunchy a ruleset and we can provide more assistance.
I'm not sure exactly what games would fall into this category.
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 09:08:01 AM
Just curious if anyone is playing these types of games here. While I'm making a purposeful shift away from D&D related fantasy, it seems like OSR type games (which aren't for me personally given my shift) fit into that space. I don't have alot of experience with them (basically zero in the fantasy genre beyond just reading the rules) but I find myself drawn to them more and more in theory. I specified traditional traditional RPGs because I'm not referring to narrative/"story" games but rather those with a classic GM/player division, story structure, and defined actions. I suspect most folks here playing rules light are likely doing so through the OSR route (that I'm also equally unfamiliar with to be honest). How much longevity is there in these types of rulesets for campaigns? Do you get enough variety in character options for long term play? If you are regularly playing these types of games, which ones are you using?
I think my favorite rules lite system is Risus. Another fun little set of rules is World of Dungeons (based on a stripped down version of Dungeon World which is a pretty light set of rules itself). The Black Hack is fun! And then there is the Microlite20 universe which I think is OSR or at least very similar.
I have made a system called Pulp! Kharma and I have a number of games based upon Microlite20.
My problem is that people are set on playing games that are heavy that I cannot get people to play. They won't even try. And then they complain about how complicated and pointless the rules are. Oh well!
Quote from: yosemitemike on April 01, 2024, 09:36:01 AM
I'm not sure exactly what games would fall into this category.
For me, non-OSR (by which most people mean O, B and 1eD&D) rules light would be the WEG Star Wars 1e; full characters fit on note cards and take just minutes to build, dice mechanics are consistent using nothing but d6s, anything larger than a light freighter is handled narratively (the 1e rules for fighting a Star Destroyer using a star fighter were literally "applaud the bravado and award them a swift and dramatic death.").
Later editions changed some of the math and started adding more fiddly bits that I think made it more the light side of rules medium, but individual perceptions will vary.
Tiny-d6 is a derivative that also falls into Rules Light territory. Depending on which widgets you're using Savage Worlds can be rules light.
The Free League games are pretty rules light. Forbidden Lands, Twilight 2000, Mutant Year Zero, etc.
The system uses a dice pool (d6 or d6, d8, d10, and d12) with a "push" mechanic (press-your-luck reroll). I have run several of their games for inexperienced players and they grok it pretty quick.
I would call them rules light, towards the medium side of the spectrum.
They have enough complexity to support campaigns, and several have detailed base-building rules.
Quote from: yosemitemike on April 01, 2024, 09:36:01 AM
I'm not sure exactly what games would fall into this category.
Barbarians of Lemuria, EZD6, Tiny Dungeon, and Tricube Tales are some that come to mind. I don't know if Mork Borg is considered OSR but it seems from the coverage that might fit in as well. Admittedly I haven't played any of the games but that's why I'm inquiring about them.
I am enjoying learning and setting up a one shot for ICRPG:Master Edition.
Its not exactly OSR, but it is rules lite. I like that 5 worlds are already setup, and a couple are interlinked.
Char create is easy, and aesthetically detailed. Unusual game mechanics should work ok for the scope and goals of the system.
Also fascinating to me is that the rules system is quite flexible, playing fantasy to post apocalyptic to superheroes.
I will be DMing the RedSword one shot soon. Heres hoping it goes well.
In terms of other OSR rules. I liked the old B/X games, 1st ed GammaWorld, etc. So I look out for those types of rules sets. I remember playing B/X about 1980, so I am not afraid to build a scenario or campaign and not have 9 books of everything setup for me.
Wait? did I answer the question?
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 01, 2024, 09:30:35 AM
One suggestion for better assistance; rules light is VERY subjective... if your frame of reference is PF1e or HERO or Exalted 3e then nearly anything is rules light. For others, BECMI is mid-crunch and 1e WEG Star Wars or Ghostbusters might be considered rules light.
Basically; give us an example of what you consider too crunchy a ruleset and we can provide more assistance.
I'd probably qualify current D&D as squarely in the middle as "mid-crunch" personally. Something lighter than that like Five Torches Deep or Easy Mode D&D would be the rules light versions of it. As for the non-OSR part of the question, I'm trying to branch away from typical D&D style heroic fantasy in general and d20 based systems in particular if possible.
Quote from: squirewaldo on April 01, 2024, 10:12:38 AM
I think my favorite rules lite system is Risus. Another fun little set of rules is World of Dungeons (based on a stripped down version of Dungeon World which is a pretty light set of rules itself). The Black Hack is fun! And then there is the Microlite20 universe which I think is OSR or at least very similar.
I have made a system called Pulp! Kharma and I have a number of games based upon Microlite20.
My problem is that people are set on playing games that are heavy that I cannot get people to play. They won't even try. And then they complain about how complicated and pointless the rules are. Oh well!
It's definitely an uphill battle to entice people to play anything less well known for sure. I wasn't aware of Risus or World of Dungeons/Dungeon World so will have to look them up. Do you feel like they have enough depth in character creation/advancement to keep the average player's attention at least of a couple of months of weekly play?
edit: Would WoD/DW classify as a traditional style RPG? Admittedly I'm basing this on a 30 second quick read of their starter guide to playing but it seems from the description with vague "moves" along with degrees of success that it might play more like a narrative game in that regard. I obviously may be wrong with that first impression though.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 01, 2024, 11:21:57 AM
The Free League games are pretty rules light. Forbidden Lands, Twilight 2000, Mutant Year Zero, etc.
The system uses a dice pool (d6 or d6, d8, d10, and d12) with a "push" mechanic (press-your-luck reroll). I have run several of their games for inexperienced players and they grok it pretty quick.
I would call them rules light, towards the medium side of the spectrum.
They have enough complexity to support campaigns, and several have detailed base-building rules.
That's a good point. I'm quite familiar with the YZE/Free League games and enjoy them but I'd personally consider them rules medium myself though they can be modded to be rules light (and I've seen "micro" and "mini" versions of them using their open license).
Quote from: orbitalair on April 01, 2024, 12:27:24 PM
I am enjoying learning and setting up a one shot for ICRPG:Master Edition.
Its not exactly OSR, but it is rules lite. I like that 5 worlds are already setup, and a couple are interlinked.
Char create is easy, and aesthetically detailed. Unusual game mechanics should work ok for the scope and goals of the system.
Also fascinating to me is that the rules system is quite flexible, playing fantasy to post apocalyptic to superheroes.
I will be DMing the RedSword one shot soon. Heres hoping it goes well.
In terms of other OSR rules. I liked the old B/X games, 1st ed GammaWorld, etc. So I look out for those types of rules sets. I remember playing B/X about 1980, so I am not afraid to build a scenario or campaign and not have 9 books of everything setup for me.
Wait? did I answer the question?
I'd say so since I forgot about ICRPG! Is it true that some of the latter supplements really drifted it more towards just plain rules medium away from its lighter roots? While I've watched some reviews about it, I can't say that I've even read the full core rules let alone played it or gotten to really know them. Is there enough meat on the original core bone to facilitate a couple months worth of weekly play? As for RedSword, I'll have to look that up as I'm not familiar with it even in passing.
ICRPG:Master Edition has the 3 supplements added to the main book now. Vigilante City, Snow and Blood and GhostMountain.
The Xeno:Dead Zone, while really cool, is a bit of a, well, really crunchy addon in my view. but i havent gotten to play it yet.
I think the MasterEdition worlds would have enough depth to play for many months, weekly.
But chars dont have 'levels', and advancements are made a little differently. I see chars as having about 5-6 'levels', which would be like the B/X system.
I 'think' the Adventure module pack (of some 20 oneshots) is either free or cheap ($2?). It came with the ICRPG:ME pdf set. The Last Flight of the Red Sword is in there. In fact they say to play the sci-fi Red Sword first, as it serves as a better break for the player and GM mindset.
You can download the core rules for free from the runehammer site.
EDIT: to be clear, Xeno is a completely seperate buy from the Master Edition set.
Warlock! is rules light. Characters are Stamina, Luck, and a handful of Skills.
The main mechanic is d20 + Skill >= 20.
In combat, Stamina is HP and when you hit 0 or less you roll on an injury table. Stamina recovers very quickly.
There's also a sci-fi version called Warpstar!
And there's a reasonable amount of published materials which is always a good sign.
As for campaigns, there's a career system with some careers only available as second careers. So it seems designed for long term play.
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 09:08:01 AM
1. How much longevity is there in these types of rulesets for campaigns?
2. Do you get enough variety in character options for long term play?
3. If you are regularly playing these types of games, which ones are you using?
1. You can play forever or until the pc dies. The real question is how important is the zero to hero climb for you? Do you want to start out with a fledgling pc that kinda sucks but can improve, or start out with a pretty competent player that is already improved.
2. Depends on if you want to focus on growing the pc wide or high. High = my skill increases to be better. Wide = I learn a new skill.
3. I have no idea if you want 2d6, percentile, step dice, or dice pool. But, here are some neat systems I've found (all are free to download):
- d6 RPG by 3 Muse at https://3muse.tripod.com/d6rpg.htm
- 2d6 Roleplaying System by Joshua Gager at https://2d6game.wordpress.com/about/
- There and Back Again by Ray Otus at https://plundergrounds.itch.io/taba
Don't waste your money on TinyD6 (it's not that it's a bad game, it's a good game but way overpriced for what it is and There and Back Again is 90% the same game).
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 12:31:52 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on April 01, 2024, 10:12:38 AM
I think my favorite rules lite system is Risus. Another fun little set of rules is World of Dungeons (based on a stripped down version of Dungeon World which is a pretty light set of rules itself). The Black Hack is fun! And then there is the Microlite20 universe which I think is OSR or at least very similar.
I have made a system called Pulp! Kharma and I have a number of games based upon Microlite20.
My problem is that people are set on playing games that are heavy that I cannot get people to play. They won't even try. And then they complain about how complicated and pointless the rules are. Oh well!
It's definitely an uphill battle to entice people to play anything less well known for sure. I wasn't aware of Risus or World of Dungeons/Dungeon World so will have to look them up. Do you feel like they have enough depth in character creation/advancement to keep the average player's attention at least of a couple of months of weekly play?
edit: Would WoD/DW classify as a traditional style RPG? Admittedly I'm basing this on a 30 second quick read of their starter guide to playing but it seems from the description with vague "moves" along with degrees of success that it might play more like a narrative game in that regard. I obviously may be wrong with that first impression though.
I'm not familiar with World of Dungeons, but Dungeon World focuses on Moves. A Player says what they want to do; then the GM interprets what the player said, and calls for the appropriate roll, when necessary. "So, you try to Defy Danger? Roll........". Players roll for everything, in Dungeon World. Offense and Defense, etc.
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 12:28:57 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 01, 2024, 09:30:35 AM
One suggestion for better assistance; rules light is VERY subjective... if your frame of reference is PF1e or HERO or Exalted 3e then nearly anything is rules light. For others, BECMI is mid-crunch and 1e WEG Star Wars or Ghostbusters might be considered rules light.
Basically; give us an example of what you consider too crunchy a ruleset and we can provide more assistance.
I'd probably qualify current D&D as squarely in the middle as "mid-crunch" personally. Something lighter than that like Five Torches Deep or Easy Mode D&D would be the rules light versions of it. As for the non-OSR part of the question, I'm trying to branch away from typical D&D style heroic fantasy in general and d20 based systems in particular if possible.
In that case, I'd recommend taking a look at Savage Worlds. It's core is rules lite and you can bolt on extras to taste. It has a large number of settings both official and unofficial.
My personal feeling is it does classic pulp adventure best and even conversions to it end up feeling that way. It also runs on Bennies (a metacurrency) and if the GM isn't handing them out fairly liberally the mechanics can get a little wonky.
I really like minimalist games in general. Risus, Mini-six, etc.
I rarely play then, however, most of my games are still OSR (usually with a minimalist twist).
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 12:31:52 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on April 01, 2024, 10:12:38 AM
I think my favorite rules lite system is Risus. Another fun little set of rules is World of Dungeons (based on a stripped down version of Dungeon World which is a pretty light set of rules itself). The Black Hack is fun! And then there is the Microlite20 universe which I think is OSR or at least very similar.
I have made a system called Pulp! Kharma and I have a number of games based upon Microlite20.
My problem is that people are set on playing games that are heavy that I cannot get people to play. They won't even try. And then they complain about how complicated and pointless the rules are. Oh well!
It's definitely an uphill battle to entice people to play anything less well known for sure. I wasn't aware of Risus or World of Dungeons/Dungeon World so will have to look them up. Do you feel like they have enough depth in character creation/advancement to keep the average player's attention at least of a couple of months of weekly play?
edit: Would WoD/DW classify as a traditional style RPG? Admittedly I'm basing this on a 30 second quick read of their starter guide to playing but it seems from the description with vague "moves" along with degrees of success that it might play more like a narrative game in that regard. I obviously may be wrong with that first impression though.
I will play just about any set of rules if I like the people I am playing with. If I don't like them no set of rules would work. I think the real issue is the quality of the players, not the quality of the rules although there are some rules that just suck beyond all measure. I think all these rules can be played over and over again whether in a campaign or just as a set of rules that everyone is used to playing.
One of my favorite games of all time is Trvaeller. I have been told several times that it is not OSR despite being older than AD&D. But it is "mostly" rules light and fun as hell to play. I say "mostly" because there are a ton of rule supplements for this game but it really just boils down to rolling 2d6, adding a modifier, and trying to beat a target number.
The power creep is kept in check by hard limits on stats and no hit points. Damage is done to a character's stats so a guy with good stats will take more damage and remain conscious for longer, but has to do tasks with greater stat penalties due to wounds.
Since the game uses d6's for everything you may have to suspend disbelief as the maps are all hexagon grid, star maps included. And everything fits neatly into a six-sided universe. But the game runs smoothly.
Traveller was the first game to incorporate character backgrounds, which you generate with your character. Older. Pensions of the game can have your character die during this period but if you are clever, you can simply rule that that is where the character's background ends and the adventure begins.
I guess I should mention that Traveller is a Science-fiction game, but supplements are available for fantasy, and historical settings.
I'm a fan of Dragonbane & have run it a lot. Currently I'm mostly running Cyberpunk Red; despite the long skills list it feels rules light in play, with a simple task resolution mechanic, a pretty simple combat system, and no 'Feats' or other high-crunch. Definitely very streamlined from CP 2020.
Yes.
Mazes & Minotaurs
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/
Zeus welcomes you to join him in non-OSR rules light traditional RPGing!
From 1972!
Quote from: S'mon on April 01, 2024, 06:34:55 PM
I'm a fan of Dragonbane & have run it a lot. Currently I'm mostly running Cyberpunk Red; despite the long skills list it feels rules light in play, with a simple task resolution mechanic, a pretty simple combat system, and no 'Feats' or other high-crunch. Definitely very streamlined from CP 2020.
Do you consider Dragonbane rules light? It's definitely a solid ruleset and I'm personally a fan of alot of what Free League produces (including Dragonbane but moreso Forbidden Lands myself) but from my reading and short demo game it seemed more just rules "medium" on par or only slightly lighter than core 5e. Just to reiterate, that's not a dig on the game but rather just that I'm surprised you might be calling it rules light.
Quote from: Spinachcat on April 02, 2024, 03:40:56 AM
Yes.
Mazes & Minotaurs
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/
Zeus welcomes you to join him in non-OSR rules light traditional RPGing!
From 1972!
Thanks and I'll take a look. It's one of the OG systems I remember hearing about from grognards when I got into gaming in the early 90s as a teen along with Runequest (and obviously D&D) but never tried.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 01, 2024, 05:22:53 PM
One of my favorite games of all time is Trvaeller. I have been told several times that it is not OSR despite being older than AD&D.
*snip*
I guess I should mention that Traveller is a Science-fiction game, but supplements are available for fantasy, and historical settings.
I never took a look at it because of its scifi nature (I usually lean towards cyberpunk for scifi as an RPG moreso than space travel) but I've been hearing over the past 6 months when researching various RPGs that it has systems/mechanics that I probably like similar to GURPS (which I also haven't tried). I wasn't aware that it had a fantasy system. About the only thing I knew over the years about the system was that you could "die" in character creation.
On the light end of lite, there is Maze Rats and Cairn(v1).
I like both of these little booklets, good stuff in just a few pages. Interesting systems.
Cairn v2 adds more talents/skills and char backstory stuff, which i disagreed with and got banned by the author.
i am abrasive i guess.
I quite like this sort of game, but what with one thing and another, rarely get to run/play them. As others have mentioned, it's hard to get players for anything other than variations on D&D or other mainstream games like Call of Cthulhu.
One I can recommend from experience is Dragon Warriors, a mid-80s fantasy game that got republished in the late 00s. It's about the same rules-weight as something like OSE, class-based, but with totally different HP, armor, combat and magic systems. (For my money, it's an improvement on D&D in almost every respect). I ran a campaign of it for a little over a year, players loved it, and it sustained a lengthy campaign perfectly well. https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/90926/dragon-warriors
The categories and subdivisions of the games we play is starting to sound like a fucking Starbucks order...
"I'd like a non-OSR, Rules-Light, Traditional... hold the "T" in TTRPG because we invented RPG, extra immersion and another shot of emulation, and no Forge. K thanks?"
Quote from: RNGm on April 02, 2024, 09:05:05 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on April 02, 2024, 03:40:56 AM
Yes.
Mazes & Minotaurs
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/
Zeus welcomes you to join him in non-OSR rules light traditional RPGing!
From 1972!
Thanks and I'll take a look. It's one of the OG systems I remember hearing about from grognards when I got into gaming in the early 90s as a teen along with Runequest (and obviously D&D) but never tried.
No it isn't. But it
should have been. ;D
Quote from: tenbones on April 02, 2024, 12:29:43 PM
The categories and subdivisions of the games we play is starting to sound like a fucking Starbucks order...
"I'd like a non-OSR, Rules-Light, Traditional... hold the "T" in TTRPG because we invented RPG, extra immersion and another shot of emulation, and no Forge. K thanks?"
Lol! Well, it's the consequence of RPG "theory" and theory-crafters, I think. When I first started playing in the 80s, we didn't care whether our mechanics were unified or our games gave everyone a share of the "spotlight." We cared if they were fun. Once you spend too long plotting the journey, you tend to forget the destination...
Quote from: RNGm on April 02, 2024, 09:08:05 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 01, 2024, 05:22:53 PM
One of my favorite games of all time is Trvaeller. I have been told several times that it is not OSR despite being older than AD&D.
*snip*
I guess I should mention that Traveller is a Science-fiction game, but supplements are available for fantasy, and historical settings.
I never took a look at it because of its scifi nature (I usually lean towards cyberpunk for scifi as an RPG moreso than space travel) but I've been hearing over the past 6 months when researching various RPGs that it has systems/mechanics that I probably like similar to GURPS (which I also haven't tried). I wasn't aware that it had a fantasy system. About the only thing I knew over the years about the system was that you could "die" in character creation.
I am a big fan of Cyberpunk (the RPG by R. talsorian). I used that game, and its sister system Mekton to run Traveller games after MegaTraveller stopped being produced. Personally I never jived with the official setting, but I thought the system was amazing and hacked it for a space opera game.
Here are some supplements that you might find interesting:
Sword of Cepheus (a fantasy hack for Traveller): https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/304840/The-Sword-of-Cepheus
Mercator (Traveller in Ancient Rome). Links directly to .pdf:
https://www.freelancetraveller.com/magazine/2010-04/mercator.pdf
Traveller 1520, Holy Roman Empire:
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397322/1520-hre-2d6-adventure-in-the-holy-roman-empire
I quite like LBB Traveller. I kind of wish it wasn't quite _that_ rules light, but it gets the job done and I love the setting
Quote from: RNGm on April 02, 2024, 08:57:38 AM
Do you consider Dragonbane rules light? It's definitely a solid ruleset and I'm personally a fan of alot of what Free League produces (including Dragonbane but moreso Forbidden Lands myself) but from my reading and short demo game it seemed more just rules "medium" on par or only slightly lighter than core 5e. Just to reiterate, that's not a dig on the game but rather just that I'm surprised you might be calling it rules light.
Yes I'd consider it rules light, lighter than 5e.
Quote from: RNGm on April 02, 2024, 08:57:38 AM
Do you consider Dragonbane rules light? It's definitely a solid ruleset and I'm personally a fan of alot of what Free League produces (including Dragonbane but moreso Forbidden Lands myself) but from my reading and short demo game it seemed more just rules "medium" on par or only slightly lighter than core 5e. Just to reiterate, that's not a dig on the game but rather just that I'm surprised you might be calling it rules light.
GURPS Ultralite?
Tunnels & Trolls?
Quote from: tenbones on April 02, 2024, 12:29:43 PM
The categories and subdivisions of the games we play is starting to sound like a fucking Starbucks order...
"I'd like a non-OSR, Rules-Light, Traditional... hold the "T" in TTRPG because we invented RPG, extra immersion and another shot of emulation, and no Forge. K thanks?"
Would you rather I be vague so people suggest things that I know I have no interest in? FWIW, my coffee orders are always simple. "Coffee, black. No cream, no sugar." The only reason I add the second sentence is because some baristas are too stupid to know what the first actually means based on my experience. :)
Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 02, 2024, 02:47:16 PM
Lol! Well, it's the consequence of RPG "theory" and theory-crafters, I think. When I first started playing in the 80s, we didn't care whether our mechanics were unified or our games gave everyone a share of the "spotlight." We cared if they were fun. Once you spend too long plotting the journey, you tend to forget the destination...
Yes, yes, I know, Grandpa. You had to walk uphill year round in the snow just to attend the game and you didn't have dice because throwing marked caltrops on the floor is REAL immersion otherwise you're just storygaming that injury result! Us 90s gamers don't know how easy we had with our unified games with coherent rulesets... :)
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 02, 2024, 04:16:29 PM
Here are some supplements that you might find interesting:
Sword of Cepheus (a fantasy hack for Traveller): https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/304840/The-Sword-of-Cepheus
Mercator (Traveller in Ancient Rome). Links directly to .pdf:
https://www.freelancetraveller.com/magazine/2010-04/mercator.pdf
Traveller 1520, Holy Roman Empire:
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397322/1520-hre-2d6-adventure-in-the-holy-roman-empire
Thanks and I'll take a look. I actually saw a video about Sword of Cepheus as well as Barbaric! 2E which I'll be checking out in more detail this week.
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 09:08:01 AM
Just curious if anyone is playing these types of games here. While I'm making a purposeful shift away from D&D related fantasy, it seems like OSR type games (which aren't for me personally given my shift) fit into that space. I don't have alot of experience with them (basically zero in the fantasy genre beyond just reading the rules) but I find myself drawn to them more and more in theory. I specified traditional traditional RPGs because I'm not referring to narrative/"story" games but rather those with a classic GM/player division, story structure, and defined actions. I suspect most folks here playing rules light are likely doing so through the OSR route (that I'm also equally unfamiliar with to be honest). How much longevity is there in these types of rulesets for campaigns? Do you get enough variety in character options for long term play? If you are regularly playing these types of games, which ones are you using?
Eh.
The way you described trad games fits something like Apocalypse World or Burning Wheel. Would you agree those are trad games? If not, why?
Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 07:02:59 PM
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 09:08:01 AM
Just curious if anyone is playing these types of games here. While I'm making a purposeful shift away from D&D related fantasy, it seems like OSR type games (which aren't for me personally given my shift) fit into that space. I don't have alot of experience with them (basically zero in the fantasy genre beyond just reading the rules) but I find myself drawn to them more and more in theory. I specified traditional traditional RPGs because I'm not referring to narrative/"story" games but rather those with a classic GM/player division, story structure, and defined actions. I suspect most folks here playing rules light are likely doing so through the OSR route (that I'm also equally unfamiliar with to be honest). How much longevity is there in these types of rulesets for campaigns? Do you get enough variety in character options for long term play? If you are regularly playing these types of games, which ones are you using?
Eh.
The way you described trad games fits something like Apocalypse World or Burning Wheel. Would you agree those are trad games? If not, why?
Never read through let alone played either so can't really commment.
Quote from: RNGm on April 02, 2024, 07:01:05 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 02, 2024, 04:16:29 PM
Here are some supplements that you might find interesting:
Sword of Cepheus (a fantasy hack for Traveller): https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/304840/The-Sword-of-Cepheus
Mercator (Traveller in Ancient Rome). Links directly to .pdf:
https://www.freelancetraveller.com/magazine/2010-04/mercator.pdf
Traveller 1520, Holy Roman Empire:
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397322/1520-hre-2d6-adventure-in-the-holy-roman-empire
Thanks and I'll take a look. I actually saw a video about Sword of Cepheus as well as Barbaric! 2E which I'll be checking out in more detail this week.
We play tested Barbaric! 2E. It was so much fun. We loved the magic system - slow and dangerous.
-Tod
Quote from: RNGm on April 02, 2024, 07:29:01 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 07:02:59 PM
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 09:08:01 AM
Just curious if anyone is playing these types of games here. While I'm making a purposeful shift away from D&D related fantasy, it seems like OSR type games (which aren't for me personally given my shift) fit into that space. I don't have alot of experience with them (basically zero in the fantasy genre beyond just reading the rules) but I find myself drawn to them more and more in theory. I specified traditional traditional RPGs because I'm not referring to narrative/"story" games but rather those with a classic GM/player division, story structure, and defined actions. I suspect most folks here playing rules light are likely doing so through the OSR route (that I'm also equally unfamiliar with to be honest). How much longevity is there in these types of rulesets for campaigns? Do you get enough variety in character options for long term play? If you are regularly playing these types of games, which ones are you using?
Eh.
The way you described trad games fits something like Apocalypse World or Burning Wheel. Would you agree those are trad games? If not, why?
Never read through let alone played either so can't really commment.
The reason I ask is you're throwing around terminology but I'm not sure you understand what the terms mean. Like "Story"-based games and "traditional" games. Then posters start throwing around more terms: "mid-crunch" and "lite" and "rules-medium" for example. Before you know it everybody's talking about something else about the same subject. It gets silly.
I think the real question is
what kind of play experience is your group looking for. "The game would need to provide (fill-in-the-blank) experience": what's "fill-in-the-blank"? Because posters will spit rpgs at you for pages and pages with none of them being what your group really gets wet over.
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 12:31:52 PM
It's definitely an uphill battle to entice people to play anything less well known for sure. I wasn't aware of Risus or World of Dungeons/Dungeon World so will have to look them up. Do you feel like they have enough depth in character creation/advancement to keep the average player's attention at least of a couple of months of weekly play?
Dungeon World is a fantasy flavored version of Apocalypse World. It's very much a narrative game with a heavy emphasis on The Fiction. All Powered by the Apocalypse/Apocalypse Engines games are like this. If you don't want a narrative game, these games are not what you are looking for.
Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 07:51:53 PM
The reason I ask is you're throwing around terminology but I'm not sure you understand what the terms mean. Like "Story"-based games and "traditional" games. Then posters start throwing around more terms: "mid-crunch" and "lite" and "rules-medium" for example. Before you know it everybody's talking about something else about the same subject. It gets silly.
I think the real question is what kind of play experience is your group looking for. "The game would need to provide (fill-in-the-blank) experience": what's "fill-in-the-blank"? Because posters will spit rpgs at you for pages and pages with none of them being what your group really gets wet over.
I disagree as I think I have a fairly good grasp of the terms but I do admit that there is wiggle room as to which games might be classified under each due to the subjective nature of opinions in general rather than the question itself. Regardless, I've gotten alot of good examples of games to check out that fit the criteria for others and might also for me so I'd consider that to be a success. Honestly, I don't see how answering your much more open ended question entirely based on feelings (as opposed to at least partially objective criteria referencing game mechanics like "rules light") would lead to more accurate responses. Additionally, I don't actually have a group yet and instead am trying to check out games in order to find other players willing to play; as a GM, I find the mechanics matter more to me in that role than as a player. You're obviously free to disagree. Out of curiosity, if you were the one looking for a game, how would you answer your own question to give an example of how it would help narrow down the suggestions given?
Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 07:02:59 PM
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 09:08:01 AM
Just curious if anyone is playing these types of games here. While I'm making a purposeful shift away from D&D related fantasy, it seems like OSR type games (which aren't for me personally given my shift) fit into that space. I don't have alot of experience with them (basically zero in the fantasy genre beyond just reading the rules) but I find myself drawn to them more and more in theory. I specified traditional traditional RPGs because I'm not referring to narrative/"story" games but rather those with a classic GM/player division, story structure, and defined actions. I suspect most folks here playing rules light are likely doing so through the OSR route (that I'm also equally unfamiliar with to be honest). How much longevity is there in these types of rulesets for campaigns? Do you get enough variety in character options for long term play? If you are regularly playing these types of games, which ones are you using?
Eh.
The way you described trad games fits something like Apocalypse World or Burning Wheel. Would you agree those are trad games? If not, why?
BW is 3/4s a trad game, with certain pieces that are story game and other pieces that don't really fit any of that, trad or story. In any case, it's not the trad or story pieces that make it an odd duck, but how
highly structured it is, and how abstract some of those structured pieces are. It also highly curbs the GM's scope with strict rules--because the GM running BW is supposed to be a complete hard case within that structure, and then push the PCs to utter ruin if he can. Otherwise, the PCs never advance, because you can't get anywhere if you don't fail a lot.
It's weird, but about the only thing it shares with story games is a few bits of narrative currency that wouldn't be out of place in the old James Bond game, player veto over monster stats before the game starts, and the politics of the creators.
Quote from: Tod13 on April 02, 2024, 07:51:36 PM
We play tested Barbaric! 2E. It was so much fun. We loved the magic system - slow and dangerous.
-Tod
Thanks and it seems interesting. As a fan of Barbarians of Lemuria, I'm curious to see how it differs from that game given their similarities both in genre and core mechanics. I'm watching an indepth youtube overview right now but it hasn't covered the magic system yet.
Quote from: RNGm on April 02, 2024, 06:55:49 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 02, 2024, 02:47:16 PM
Lol! Well, it's the consequence of RPG "theory" and theory-crafters, I think. When I first started playing in the 80s, we didn't care whether our mechanics were unified or our games gave everyone a share of the "spotlight." We cared if they were fun. Once you spend too long plotting the journey, you tend to forget the destination...
Yes, yes, I know, Grandpa. You had to walk uphill year round in the snow just to attend the game and you didn't have dice because throwing marked caltrops on the floor is REAL immersion otherwise you're just storygaming that injury result! Us 90s gamers don't know how easy we had with our unified games with coherent rulesets... :)
Well, we didn't have dice, because the first basic boxes couldn't get them manufactured in time, so they came with laminated cardboard tokens you had to cut out and draw from a bag. And unified mechanics suck.
Quote from: RNGm on April 02, 2024, 08:30:07 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 07:51:53 PM
The reason I ask is you're throwing around terminology but I'm not sure you understand what the terms mean. Like "Story"-based games and "traditional" games. Then posters start throwing around more terms: "mid-crunch" and "lite" and "rules-medium" for example. Before you know it everybody's talking about something else about the same subject. It gets silly.
I think the real question is what kind of play experience is your group looking for. "The game would need to provide (fill-in-the-blank) experience": what's "fill-in-the-blank"? Because posters will spit rpgs at you for pages and pages with none of them being what your group really gets wet over.
I disagree as I think I have a fairly good grasp of the terms but I do admit that there is wiggle room as to which games might be classified under each due to the subjective nature of opinions in general rather than the question itself. Regardless, I've gotten alot of good examples of games to check out that fit the criteria for others and might also for me so I'd consider that to be a success. Honestly, I don't see how answering your much more open ended question entirely based on feelings (as opposed to at least partially objective criteria referencing game mechanics like "rules light") would lead to more accurate responses. Additionally, I don't actually have a group yet and instead am trying to check out games in order to find other players willing to play; as a GM, I find the mechanics matter more to me in that role than as a player. You're obviously free to disagree. Out of curiosity, if you were the one looking for a game, how would you answer your own question to give an example of how it would help narrow down the suggestions given?
You gotta know what you're looking for to find it. Good luck though.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 02, 2024, 09:09:53 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 07:02:59 PM
Quote from: RNGm on April 01, 2024, 09:08:01 AM
Just curious if anyone is playing these types of games here. While I'm making a purposeful shift away from D&D related fantasy, it seems like OSR type games (which aren't for me personally given my shift) fit into that space. I don't have alot of experience with them (basically zero in the fantasy genre beyond just reading the rules) but I find myself drawn to them more and more in theory. I specified traditional traditional RPGs because I'm not referring to narrative/"story" games but rather those with a classic GM/player division, story structure, and defined actions. I suspect most folks here playing rules light are likely doing so through the OSR route (that I'm also equally unfamiliar with to be honest). How much longevity is there in these types of rulesets for campaigns? Do you get enough variety in character options for long term play? If you are regularly playing these types of games, which ones are you using?
Eh.
The way you described trad games fits something like Apocalypse World or Burning Wheel. Would you agree those are trad games? If not, why?
BW is 3/4s a trad game, with certain pieces that are story game and other pieces that don't really fit any of that, trad or story. In any case, it's not the trad or story pieces that make it an odd duck, but how highly structured it is, and how abstract some of those structured pieces are. It also highly curbs the GM's scope with strict rules--because the GM running BW is supposed to be a complete hard case within that structure, and then push the PCs to utter ruin if he can. Otherwise, the PCs never advance, because you can't get anywhere if you don't fail a lot.
It's weird, but about the only thing it shares with story games is a few bits of narrative currency that wouldn't be out of place in the old James Bond game, player veto over monster stats before the game starts, and the politics of the creators.
The page count is irresponsible but overall seems Luke outdid himself. I'm still poking through it though. What are some of your experiences playing or running it?
Quote from: Theory of Games on April 03, 2024, 05:29:45 AM
The page count is irresponsible but overall seems Luke outdid himself. I'm still poking through it though. What are some of your experiences playing or running it?
It does exactly what it says it does. If you want that experience with a group of, ideally, 3 to 4 players, and play it as written, it will deliver. To the degree that you don't want that experience and try to get it to do something else, you'll be disappointed. I only sort of wanted the experience. Most of my usual players wanted it less than I did. So it isn't a good fit for us. Crane is quite adamant about not changing the game beyond a few specified customization options (which it does fully support). But I think his presentation of that is a little off. The fact is, it would not be an easy game to change. Though I like Mouse Guard better than BW, and like Torchbearer better than both. I'm glad I played all three, not sorry I bought them, and will probably never play them again. And that's despite the insistent politics of the authors insuring that I'd never buy anything from them again. Which is fine, as they were all in on Anita Sarkeesian, and made it plain that anyone that didn't agree with them wasn't welcome. That I can say there is something there in the design despite the mutual loathing should indicate something.
As for particulars, I'll mention one that stands out: The scripted, abstract combat does what it intends. It makes the player feel the uncertainty and dread of the fight as they try to read their opponent (GM or player), while serious consequences ride on every round, for the whole group. And the way the consequences work are like a supercharged version of the various Apocalypse games, in that the most likely outcome is winning with heavy loss. Then that ties in with the only way to advance it take on hard challenges and sometimes lose. The outcome is that the survivors are grimdark, grizzled, scarred, and probably a little twisted. Unless the players are both clever and lucky at just the right moment. I hate the scripted combat. It's painfully slow, entirely gamey, doesn't scale well past those 3 or 4 players, and leads to all kinds of jarringly inconsistent actions in the fiction. So you need to really want what it does deliver to put up with it.
And yes, there is a simpler version of combat used for most fights, which is even more abstract, to the point of resolving the fight in a roll and narrating the outcome. Which is strange, because the ranged combat system, on a different scale, for running fights, is kind of in between those two extremes, in a good way. If all the fights worked like that, it'd be simpler and more fun. But then that would be 1-minute rounds, and we can't have that in a modern game, can we?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 02, 2024, 11:11:48 PM
Well, we didn't have dice, because the first basic boxes couldn't get them manufactured in time, so they came with laminated cardboard tokens you had to cut out and draw from a bag.
All joking aside, I actually didn't know that but it's good to know. Is that referring to the white box version or something earlier?
Quote from: Theory of Games on April 03, 2024, 05:29:45 AM
You gotta know what you're looking for to find it. Good luck though.
Thanks. So far it's going pretty well with people making a bunch of suggestions that fit my criteria.
Quote from: RNGm on April 03, 2024, 09:45:52 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 02, 2024, 11:11:48 PM
Well, we didn't have dice, because the first basic boxes couldn't get them manufactured in time, so they came with laminated cardboard tokens you had to cut out and draw from a bag.
All joking aside, I actually didn't know that but it's good to know. Is that referring to the white box version or something earlier?
Quote from: Theory of Games on April 03, 2024, 05:29:45 AM
You gotta know what you're looking for to find it. Good luck though.
Thanks. So far it's going pretty well with people making a bunch of suggestions that fit my criteria.
The chits appeared in the Holmes Basic box set. They would put these in whenever they ran out of dice. I thought they were in all the books, but this ref page says it would appear whenever they ran out of dice sets.
https://waynesbooks.games/2020/09/28/holmes-dd-the-first-basic-set-1977-80/
I know my Holmes box set had the chits, but i cannot remember if it had dice in there as well or not.
The overton window has shifted so much that I actually see people on various forums say SWD6 1e is crunchy and mechanical. "Maths is hard". Even though I'd say it's a brilliant rules light game that can be adapted to various genres. That and Marvel Super Heroes RPG.
The TTRPG hobby has fallen. Millions must roll on the Dark Heresy Critical Hit tables.
Fudge. It is the ultimate rules-lite framework system to hang your game on. Some crazy people play it vanilla, which takes a special group of players working with the GM. But most GMs take the time to create a game that hangs on the Fudge skeleton. It is one of those systems that will change the way you think about or approach all of your games you run. Fudge is not FATE - Fate is a set of house rules the kids at Evil Hat came up with based on Fudge and they ruined it with a "skill ladder" and broken "combat" system, and other such horrible non-sense for an "RPG". Don't confuse the two. Oh, and it's FREE.
https://fudgegenie.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/fudge_1995.pdf
TheCastleKeeper
Quote from: King Tyranno on April 03, 2024, 11:33:59 AM
The overton window has shifted so much that I actually see people on various forums say SWD6 1e is crunchy and mechanical. "Maths is hard".
I've seen this at the table at cons. Asking players to add up more than 3D6 is often painful.
If I run D6 again, I will switch the dice rolling to Successes instead of Addition.
Players can still handle rolling 6D6 and noting which are 4+ on the dice.
Quote from: tenbones on April 02, 2024, 12:29:43 PM
The categories and subdivisions of the games we play is starting to sound like a fucking Starbucks order...
"I'd like a non-OSR, Rules-Light, Traditional... hold the "T" in TTRPG because we invented RPG, extra immersion and another shot of emulation, and no Forge. K thanks?"
I think that's natural for a 50 year old hobby. So many games have gone in so many different directions and with the PDF / POD explosion thanks to the OSR and the low barrier to entry, we're drowning in glorious options.
And HOW did you not pimp Talislanta to the OP???
I'm actually not sure? Old rules, but not D&D based? The only game I can think of that fits this description is West End Games Star Wars.
I technically play it, but I'm fully converted to the even simpler version called Mini-Six Bare Bones.
My favorite rules-light RPG is the SAGA System used in DragonLance: Fifth Age. It has some odd things that can make accepting the system harder for a more traditionalist role-playing gamer, such as using cards instead of dice, but it is very comfortable once you grok it.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgflip.com%2F37l08x.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=d3f0f814017ff5381157dfa7adddfbbd6b5acc82a88b5d4da610cb212e8ab0e6&ipo=images)
Is Savage Worlds a rules-light rpg?
Quote from: Crazy_Blue_Haired_Chick on April 06, 2024, 10:39:46 AM
Is Savage Worlds a rules-light rpg?
Obviously there's no settled definition here, but I would say no. Any game that has a menu of feats/talents/perks for players to choose from tips over the line into not being rules-lite IMO. SWADE is definitely no Rolemaster, but I couldn't call it rules-lite.
I like the rules lite games out there, and am not a fan of D&D.
To me the definition of a rule lite game is not hard. Less than 100 pages in length, and a core dice mechanic that is only a few pages of the book. Heck, some of my favorite games right now are only about 10 to 20 pages long.
As for "Old School" games that fit this, that is a whole different animal. I can't think of any that fit the bill. It is why I mentioned Star Wars D6 rules as that game is only 130 or so pages long (1st edition, sometimes considered the "best" version).
I only ever played one game that fits this description, and it's obscure as well. Palladium Books Advanced Recon. It is not very long, not very complex, and is old. Yet, it is set in the Vietnam War, and you play regular (or elite) troopers sent on combat missions. The game rules are percentile based, and everything uses the D10 dice. There are no other size dice in that game. Penalties and Bonuses are also percentiles. Do you have a rifle skill of 60%, but it is night time and raining, making shots at -30%? Well, roll that 30% to make the shot.
Still, Old school and rules lite seem a bit incompatible. If you want modern games that are rules lite, then we got lots and lots of options. This was a tough one to answer.
[deleted; see post below]
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 15, 2024, 12:10:50 AMStill, Old school and rules lite seem a bit incompatible. If you want modern games that are rules lite, then we got lots and lots of options. This was a tough one to answer.
Not quite ; think of Moldvay's Basic.
Also, B/X could be reduced to 50 pages instead of 120 with few changes - mostly using target20.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 15, 2024, 02:11:24 PMQuote from: weirdguy564 on April 15, 2024, 12:10:50 AMStill, Old school and rules lite seem a bit incompatible. If you want modern games that are rules lite, then we got lots and lots of options. This was a tough one to answer.
Not quite ; think of Moldvay's Basic.
Also, B/X could be reduced to 50 pages instead of 120 with few changes - mostly using target20.
Ok, I think I see the mistake I made. I read the OP message to mean old RPGs instead of Traditional RPGs. That meant stuff from the 80's or 90's. It seems traditional means RPGs with a normal feel to them, with classes like Warrior, Wizard, Cleric, and Thief.
However, OSR and such are disqualified, so a cut down B/X is out.
Well, knowing that I actually have a bunch to offer.
1. Pocket Fantasy (free). It uses 1D6, with re-rolls for experienced or high skill characters. With the class expansion there are 14 classes, a bestiary, dungeon builder, and a unique magic system. There is a list of 7 combat spells, wizards casting 2 per fight, and out of combat a wizard can cast anything the GM will allow as a skill check twice per game session.
2. Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool edition. This one uses the increasing dice sizes to represent attributes and skills, and special abilities can add more dice. Roll them all, pick the best two dice. Magic is done as a skill check, and Warrior classes have just as many options as wizards have spells to pick from to customize your PC.
3. Mini-Six Bare Bones (free). This is Star Wars D6, but simplified. Also, it includes some needed tweaks to the D6 rules to make the game play better, clearer, and faster. Also, it's meant to be generic, but still includes knock-off settings for Firefly, Willow, Star Wars, as well as 1970's cops & robbers, and Victorian ghost hunters.
4. Tiny-D6 series. I don't pick any one game, but the series as a whole. Basically, you pick a class that gives you your hit points and a special ability, some customization abilities from a list, and you're done. It's a skill based system, rolling 1D6 (hard roll), 2D6 (medium roll), or 3D6 (easy roll). If any dice come up as a 5 or a 6, you succeed. There are individual games for fantasy, super heroes, Space Explorers, mechs & Kaiju, pirates, cowboys, Spies, even Cthulhu.
5. Kogarashi. This is Samurai, ninjas, martial artists, and mystical wizards set in a fictional Japan styled setting. It uses the REAL-D6 rules, meaning all dice rolls are 1D6, and uses advantage/disadvantage system, roll equal or under you're six stats. Magic is done is also a skill roll. Armor is a savings roll.