Here's something that I think is a fucking cancer on our hobby: the idea that you game with friends, that gaming is something for friends to do with each other, that it's a kind of 'option' for socializing between people who might want to socialize with each other anyway.

Fuck that!

When I go down to the chess club I don't care if the woodpusher across from me is a cat piss man or a regular joe or mahatma fucking gandhi! He's just a god damn woodpusher and that's all I want him to be: I move, he moves, the one who makes more better moves wins, next thing. I leave to do my own thing after that.

One thing I liked about D&D in those old days was that it was MORE like that than it is now. D&D will never be exactly like that, because roleplaying is a somewhat more intimate activity than chess. You have to share your visions, even as a third-person descriptive player. That's a little more self-revelatory. But just going down to the club and gaming with a bunch of people I don't know, don't want to know, don't care if I ever see again was GOOD. I miss that. I want games that foster that.

We need anonymous, pick-up play with no personal or social commitment beyond that needed to sit down at the table with a few other people for a few hours and make shit up. I don't know if this means rules lite, or minis, or  constrained adventure types, or what, but without this we're fucking doomed to be an obsessive, self-cannibalizing, dwindling clique.

If I WANT to make friends with someone at the game table, coz he seems interesting or whatever, great. But pre-existing social relationships shouldn't play the MAJOR role they play in shaping games and groups in this hobby. It should be like "Hey, it's D&D night down at the coffeehouse (library, YMCA, hobby store, whatever), let's go!"

So: anyone agree? More importantly, anyone have an idea for how to make games you can play this way?

I'm thinking some simpler version of D&D, a lot of advertising, and a big table full of dwarven forge and painted minis in a public space might be my solution. But I'm interested in others.

For me, since the social / table-talk is such a big part of what distinguishes table-top games (RPGs, Boardgames, Card Games) from computer games -- I'd rather play them with people I like.

If I want anonymous play, I can always buy World of Warcraft.

Interesting. I have no interest in WoW, but I have a lot of interest in low-social-commitment face-to-face RPGs.

The problem is that a roleplaying game is basically just a structured conversation, where each of us tells the other about the character or game world we control. So good roleplaying requries conversation, imagination, and basic interpersonal skills, and that you more or less get along with the others there; you don't have to be friends, but you have to be friendly.

You don't need that with chess.

I guess if you just want your character to kill things and take their stuff and nothing else, then you wouldn't need the conversation and friendliness. But if that's all you want, you're better off playing a computer game dungeon crawl - it has better pictures. The whole point of doing the stuff with other people is that there are other people.

It's a social creative hobby, after all.

Quote from: CalithenaSo: anyone agree? More importantly, anyone have an idea for how to make games you can play this way?

I don't agree or disagree. I just could never do it the way you're doing it. I have to be very comfortable with people.

re: "we need more games like that"... have you looked at adventure boardgames like "Descent" and other games by FFG? I think that, and other boardgames or card games give you a setup that is easier to handle with strangers. At least for me.

Quote from: Consonant DudeI don't agree or disagree. I just could never do it the way you're doing it. I have to be very comfortable with people.

re: "we need more games like that"... have you looked at adventure boardgames like "Descent" and other games by FFG? I think that, and other boardgames or card games give you a setup that is easier to handle with strangers. At least for me.

agreed.  however, i think the type of thing Calithena mentions is a great way to kinda suss out the people you might want to actually 'game' with later.

does the guy at the "try out table" (for lack of better term) seem kinda cool initially, but keeps talking in character as a female elf?   well, he ain't comin' over to share my cheetos.

I think its important that you have a friendly relationship with the people you Roleplay with. Because it is a game with a high social element (unlike Chess) and because developing (good, friendly) relationships with your gaming group members makes for deeper, stronger games.

That said, I disagree completely with the idea that your gaming group members have to be your social FRIENDS, in the sense that either you should make friends and do "friend things" with your gaming group buddies outside of getting together to roleplay, or the idea that the people you do get together for "friend things" are the natural best choices for being in your gaming group.  I have found neither of these things to be true; I know a lot of people who I happily game with, and who are great gamers and that I work well with in the game, that I would never see myself doing any other social activity with; and in turn I know that MOST of the people I am friends with outside of gaming would be really poor choices for my gaming groups.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThat said, I disagree completely with the idea that your gaming group members have to be your social FRIENDS, in the sense that either you should make friends and do "friend things" with your gaming group buddies outside of getting together to roleplay, or the idea that the people you do get together for "friend things" are the natural best choices for being in your gaming group.  I have found neither of these things to be true; I know a lot of people who I happily game with, and who are great gamers and that I work well with in the game, that I would never see myself doing any other social activity with; and in turn I know that MOST of the people I am friends with outside of gaming would be really poor choices for my gaming groups.

Yeah, I can get behind that. I don't need super-close friends. But I need good gaming buddies.

Sooner or later, if we get along well enough at the table, things unfold and we do other activities. It's the same when I'm in a band. I'd have an easier time finding great musicians that I click with if I didn't care about getting along.

There's a variety of reasons but the primary one is that I really need the trust element. And I speak of overall trust. Trust that we communicate well. Trust in the person's behavior.

Plus I like to make gaming night an event of sort. With a nice dinner, wine, conversations and sometimes to end the night by all going out.

I guess I could screen gamers that way: If the game takes place at my home and I'm alone. And this dude rang at my door 1 hour before game start, would I have fun talking with him while we wait for the rest of the folks to show up? Or would there be awkward silences or painfully boring moments?

If it's the latter, I don't want that person in my gaming group, even if we love the same games.

(I'm of course willing to give people I don't know well a chance. Becoming buddies can take time)

On it's face I'm repulsed by the idea, and almost insulted by the implication that social play is somehow bad.

then I remember that two of my all time best game sessions were con games.

Then I remember than one of the creepiest (like "creepy gamer thread" creepy) fucking games I ever played was at a con.

Both can be good, and have their merits.  I find though, that there's a certain tendency, if your gaming group forms any kind of cohesiveness at all, to become more friendly with them over time anyway.  And I can't see of anyway of preventing that ultimate effect, or even why you'd want to.

I mean, in the theoretical, I can imagine some sort of "business-like" approach to the game, but the social dynamic that would create to me would just be unspeakably dull.

I would not mind running a convention game every so often. Playing with folks who are strangers could be a challenging experience and extemely rewarding. But for regular play I only play with friends. This does not mean that we do other things outside of gaming together - although with my current crew we sometimes do - tennis, pub crawling, movies etc.

There's a lot of things that go into creating a succesful game. Player expectations, communication etc. I find these much more easier to handle when the group I'm running games for are all friends. Sometimes things take time to work out.

I didn't learn how to run great games and improve as a GM by playing with strangers - I don't think it's possible (okay maybe it is, I'm mean there are some folks who only run games at conventions or gaming clubs, right?) I learnt how to entertain a specific group of people over a period of time (Which is why this whole GMing thing is pretty subjective)

Regards,
David R

Interesting. The Pundit sort of meets me halfway, at least.

JimBob, your post astonishes me - normally I go to the Forge if I want that kind of social get-along spiel. I thought surely the cheetoists would have some sympathy for the view I'm expressing, but what do I know.

The computer dungeon crawls have a lot to offer, but they don't offer the face to face social interaction that RPGs offer, which is what I really like. I just want to have that interaction anonymously with strangers without any other particular connection to them.

It occurs to me that what I may be looking for is sex without baggage. Which, hey, if you can get it, why not, but life doesn't work that way very often.

Still it's FUN to roleplay with people you don't know, by and large. I mean, with established groups, there's so much planning, it kills everything a lot of the time. Why not just go into a scenario and see what happens instead?

So that's another thing. I want spontaneity. I find that the weight of established groups eventually drags that all out of me and leaves me broken and spent, sooner or later.

But here's this third thing. Every time I get involved in a new RPG group, or even start a game with the same group, it's the same shit. All this endless fucking organization, who's free when, what game do we want to play, who's going to run, when will we schedule the session where we generate characters and situation together, blah blah fucking blah. How about: it's lunchtime! 45 minutes. Let's go to the science classroom D&D club, get our character that we made at home by ourselves out of our binder, kill a monster or two, maybe solve a puzzle, and get a treasure.

Or: work's out! Let's go down to the local coffehouse and play in Joe's game from 6 to 9. Joe's always got something cool going on, and I made this cool character...

I have a lot of fun when I play - way more than 20 minutes every 4 hours. But the 8 hours of organization it takes to get everyone on the same page for that 4 hours of fun play, and the 16 hours of thinking about it and analyzing it to death, is killing my woodie. I want a model where I can just go do it.

Ten years ago I would have run screaming at your suggestion. But then I moved states and I was forced to find new people to play with. And, hey, I kind of like it, for much the same reasons you're talking about.

Your point 3 I don't find so much of a problem, but I'm a bit pissed so I might have to return to it later.

You know, one of my favorite parts about doing demos with Palladium is meeting new gamers, and seeing how they act & react to different scenarios.  No two groups are ever the same,  I can tell you that much.
 
And if things go totally South, well, the demo is what, 1 to 3 hours, depending?  If we don't jive, I likely won't ever have to sit down with them again...

I don't have a problem playing with new people. My WFRP campaign at the gaming pub has people I barely know.

That being said, I agree with Pundit's post.

For me, game-playing is a social endeavor, one I vastly prefer to do with friends. I have no interest in gaming beyond that. And by "gaming" I mean any type of game, board, card, roleplaying, or whatever. I have no urge to game simply to game. When I don't have friends to game with, I don't game, and I don't miss it. If I want to game "anonymously," I'd prefer a computer or console game.