I have been reading The Fate Horror Toolkit. And I came across a page that was down right inappropriately preachy. So much that it set off my 'pissed off' alarm.
Page 44. On Othering of Mental Illness.
This screed denounces horror taking place in less enlightened ages. Like that of H.P. Lovecraft. Which are foundational to the genre. The authors might as well have been denouncing the whole horror genre while they were at it!
Fear of the 'other' is a very primal instinctual thing. It's something everybody can relate to. And it's an important tool for a good horror GM to have in their toolbox.
Mental Illness is scarey. Both for those afflicted with it and those who are outside, looking in. It's terrifying still at a widespread level in most of the world's societies. And you know what? It's okay to be afraid of mental illness. It's okay for it to be an uncomfortable place people to explore. You don't want to go there in your games? Talk to your group about the fact it makes you uncomfortable.
I think the horror genre only needs to conform to the limits the individual GM and group place upon it.
You're suggesting players act like adults.
There are no adults left.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1059229I have been reading The Fate Horror Toolkit. And I came across a page that was down right inappropriately preachy. So much that it set off my 'pissed off' alarm.
Page 44. On Othering of Mental Illness.
This screed denounces horror taking place in less enlightened ages. Like that of H.P. Lovecraft. Which are foundational to the genre. The authors might as well have been denouncing the whole horror genre while they were at it!
I agree - of course personal insanity can be even more horrific, especially if you see it happening. I guess insanity in one's loved ones is probably the most horrific of all.
One reason I rarely find HPL at all horrific is that the protagonists rarely demonstrate any personal ties. The guy who gets turned into a rotting self-aware zombie is quite horrific, but having loved ones come back as flesh eating zombies would be a lot worse.
Mental illness has been normalized, and normal behavior has been marginalized.
They teach mental illness in schools and colleges. And parents pay good money for it.
Quote from: NYTFLYR;1059255Mental illness has been normalized, and normal behavior has been marginalized.
You're not... wrong?
My favourite is the new 4th edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. It tells you that if players are uncomfortable with horror and violence, those topics should not be part of your game. I'm sorry, but whilst I'm all for expanding your horizons regarding what you get upto within a setting... no VIOLENCE or horror in bleedin' WARHAMMER?
I know a lot of 'anti-SJWs' have become a bit too paranoid and leap at just about anything as being SJW these days (I don't think stating that careers are gender neutral just because it's written 'Watchman' is bending over for Anita) but in a book that played it very safe and sanitised, but didn't strike me as especially trying to earn brownies points with the RPG.net audience, it did stand out rather starkly.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1059231You're suggesting players act like adults.
There are no adults left.
Here's a simple litmus test: you walk up to a table of strangers and ask "is this a safe space?" You can be serious, you can be snarky, it doesn't matter. They can reply 'yes' or 'no'. You now know everything you need to know about whether or not you want to sit and play with them. Accept if their answer is not one you wanted, and move on. Welcome to adulting.
Quote from: Snark Knight;1059320My favourite is the new 4th edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. It tells you that if players are uncomfortable with horror and violence, those topics should not be part of your game. I'm sorry, but whilst I'm all for expanding your horizons regarding what you get upto within a setting... no VIOLENCE or horror in bleedin' WARHAMMER?
"HUGS FOR THE HUG GOD! PUPPIES FOR THE PUPPY THRONE!"
"Can I at least still have crab-clawed hermaphrodites? I promise they won't actually -do- anything, because that might be scary. They'll just... uh... be pretty?"
Damn it. Now I want a G-rated Warhammer. And yes, I know there are children novels coming out. I'm thinking more "Warhammer for Toddlers", like Peppa Pig... but with Skaven. "Miss Grey Seer is the busiest Skaven beneath the Empire. Today though, she's sick. So Sally Skaven and friends will have to fill in her work!" "But Daddy Skaven, why do -I- have to clean out the slave pits?!?!" "Rat-Ogre! Grrr!"
(start a post by telling people how to adult. End a post with a Peppa Pig parody. Sounds about right for the internet.)
Quote from: san dee jota;1059379ermaphrodites? I promise they won't actually -do- anything, because that might be scary. They'll just... uh... be pretty?"
Damn it. Now I want a G-rated Warhammer. And yes, I know there are children novels coming out. I'm thinking more "Warhammer for Toddlers", like Peppa Pig... but with Skaven. "Miss Grey Seer is the busiest Skaven beneath the Empire. Today though, she's sick. So Sally Skaven and friends will have to fill in her work!" "But Daddy Skaven, why do -I- have to clean out the slave pits?!?!" "Rat-Ogre! Grrr!"
(start a post by telling people how to adult. End a post with a Peppa Pig parody. Sounds about right for the internet.)
Your Peppa Pig Parody was excellent, though.
Quote from: san dee jota;1059379"HUGS FOR THE HUG GOD! PUPPIES FOR THE PUPPY THRONE!"
Yes, because violence is a binary quality. There are no options between Teletubbies and a torture porn gore fest draped in entrails dripping with blood and shit.
Quote from: Xuc xac;1059383Yes, because violence is a binary quality. There are no options between Teletubbies and a torture porn gore fest draped in entrails dripping with blood and shit.
I can't tell if you're trolling or serious, but sure, I'll play along.
When dealing with Khorne within the Warhammer setting, there isn't any middle ground or "Teletubbies" option. Khorne is the daemon god of murder and bloodshed, whose prayer is "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!" (and yes, the capitalization is necessary in this case, and when talking about "WWWAAAGGGHHH!" in 40k). If you remove violence and horror from Warhammer as the above poster said was now a thing, you effectively remove Khorne and leave some neutered concept in its place*.
(also, Khorne's not into shit per-se. That might be more of a Slanneshi thing though)
(*and don't anybody get me started on that "but he's also the god of honor and valor" bullshit, or I'll put your willful stupidity/ignorant opinions on public display)
It can get a bit annoying. Sometimes it can be a-lot annoying. Its part of why I despise Fantasy Wargaming (a medieval authentic RPG) so much.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1059229I have been reading The Fate Horror Toolkit. And I came across a page that was down right inappropriately preachy. So much that it set off my 'pissed off' alarm.
It is from Evil Hat. I like some of their stuff - especially Don't Rest Your Head, but I had to unfollow anyone associated with the company a long time ago because of the overbearing political crap. They aren't doing very well either:
https://www.evilhat.com/home/refocused-resized-hat-mode-activated/
Quote from: Lynn;1059430It is from Evil Hat. I like some of their stuff - especially Don't Rest Your Head, but I had to unfollow anyone associated with the company a long time ago because of the overbearing political crap. They aren't doing very well either:
https://www.evilhat.com/home/refocused-resized-hat-mode-activated/
The Fate Horror Toolkit was the first one of their products that I own to contain such a screed. It is not a usual thing for their Fate products.
This toolkit is controversial to me because of this screed, and because they hired Bruce Baugh. Bruce Baugh I do not like one bit. But I could have overlooked his presence. If the book had just stayed on point.
I bought the Dresden Files stuff from Evil Hat. I loved it because I loved DF, but I could never play it because it's FATE (although I tried...twice). I can't say as anything on their list excites me, nor that anything cut from their list bothers me. Of course, I can say that for almost every gaming company these days.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1059435The Fate Horror Toolkit was the first one of their products that I own to contain such a screed. It is not a usual thing for their Fate products.
This toolkit is controversial to me because of this screed, and because they hired Bruce Baugh. Bruce Baugh I do not like one bit. But I could have overlooked his presence. If the book had just stayed on point.
There's been stuff before. I don't have a ton of their products so I can't comment on much of it, but I do know they slipped some things into the Dresden Files RPG. I recall there was one section in Your Story where Billy (a werewolf from the novels and the fictional author of the rpg) talked about women being portrayed in art and basically called out the games' art as problematic because of all the beautiful, half-dressed female villains that are shown beating Harry up. It was pretty sad to see Evil Hat use the Dresden Files comics for their art and then essentially call the source material sexist.
Evil Hat are SJW fucktards so the big surprise would be NOT finding SJW bullshit in their books.
Sounds like they're getting a tasty taste of "get woke, go broke" too! Not a surprise.
The Hollywood versions of mental illness are great tools for all sorts of drama. Real mental illness is mostly just sad and painful. They're often incurable diseases where the medications may do more harm than good, or doing little to heal the person or allow them to live a fruitful life. The real deal isn't fun gaming material. Might as well roleplay "our child has died" or "we're getting a divorce".
Also, horror is about transgression of social norms. Go forth and transgress my web fingered children of Dagon! Transgress!
Quote from: Brand55;1059463There's been stuff before. I don't have a ton of their products so I can't comment on much of it, but I do know they slipped some things into the Dresden Files RPG. I recall there was one section in Your Story where Billy (a werewolf from the novels and the fictional author of the rpg) talked about women being portrayed in art and basically called out the games' art as problematic because of all the beautiful, half-dressed female villains that are shown beating Harry up. It was pretty sad to see Evil Hat use the Dresden Files comics for their art and then essentially call the source material sexist.
Well it seems that they just canceled a bunch of the Toolkit series I was looking forward to buying. A pity. Because I really like that series.
Quote from: san dee jota;1059379I'm thinking more "Warhammer for Toddlers", like Peppa Pig... but with Skaven.
You've... obviously not seen the Peppa Pig videos on #YouTube, which I'm sure has earned them their own place among the Chaos Gods.
Quote from: Lynn;1059430It is from Evil Hat. I like some of their stuff - especially Don't Rest Your Head,
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1059435This toolkit is controversial to me because of this screed, and because they hired Bruce Baugh. Bruce Baugh I do not like one bit.
Bruce Baugh wrote the Don't Rest Your Head supplement Don't Lose Your Mind, which to this day I still consider one of the best written horror books ever. And to this day the dissonance between the author and the work confound me.
Quote from: Brand55;1059463It was pretty sad to see Evil Hat use the Dresden Files comics for their art and then essentially call the source material sexist.
Trust me, they're just a hairs breath from attacking Jim Butcher himself, who 'indirectly' came out in support of Larry Correia in his criticism of WorldCon and how they treated Jon Del Arroz. There's no such thing as friends or forgiveness in this ideology, and hopefully that's what will end it.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1059499You've... obviously not seen the Peppa Pig videos on #YouTube, which I'm sure has earned them their own place among the Chaos Gods.
The fan edits/parodies? Yeah, I caught a few seconds of one and turned it off. I couldn't decide which was worse: the quality of the edit, or the quality of the comedy. Either way, my two-year old didn't need to see it.
(as for the series itself... I have a two-year old. I've seen so much Peppa Pig I can almost quote the actual episodes)
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1059499Bruce Baugh wrote the Don't Rest Your Head supplement Don't Lose Your Mind, which to this day I still consider one of the best written horror books ever. And to this day the dissonance between the author and the work confound me.
Enh. As much as everyone likes to think everyone -else- is a collection of consistent extreme beliefs, I figure the things he cares about and the things he doesn't are pretty diverse. And the bar has moved regarding what is and isn't acceptable since he wrote that a decade ago. Plus "he was younger then, and needed the money" is a good fall back. Heck, -I'd- use it for some of my stuff.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1059499Trust me, they're just a hairs breath from attacking Jim Butcher himself, who 'indirectly' came out in support of Larry Correia in his criticism of WorldCon and how they treated Jon Del Arroz. There's no such thing as friends or forgiveness in this ideology, and hopefully that's what will end it.
It's bad business to associate with the enemy. Publicly at least.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1059485Evil Hat are SJW fucktards so the big surprise would be NOT finding SJW bullshit in their books.
Sounds like they're getting a tasty taste of "get woke, go broke" too! Not a surprise.
More likely: they tried to branch out into the highly competitive/highly demanding/low profit world of card and board games, and realized they couldn't cut it. So they dropped back down to focus on RPGs, where you can make a (relative) killing selling electronic stuff and not have to deal with Chinese printing costs, shipping, warehousing, etc. "Woke" is basically a free marketing gimmick (even if you believe what you say, you're still saying it to connect with a consumer base). A quality game is a quality game, no matter how many pages they devote to an agenda. Look at Exalted: it's loaded with rape, slavery, sexism, racism, and even some pedophilia, but the folks at TBP ate it up because it's a good game (well, sorta' kinda' not really).
Quote from: Spinachcat;1059485Also, horror is about transgression of social norms.
I'd argue it's about the sudden removal of feeling safe personally, with dread being the ongoing removal of feeling safe. Horror is how you create either of those situations, with social transgression being just one method. Mental illness is scary because it triggers that dread sensation; Alzheimers is horrific in the moment of diagnosis, but it's dreadful in the build up to that and the life afterwards. I suppose you could say that people with Alzheimers break social norms, and that's why they make us uncomfortable, but that seems like a real stretch.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1059497Well it seems that they just canceled a bunch of the Toolkit series I was looking forward to buying. A pity. Because I really like that series.
That sucks. I don't care for Fate Core, but I'm all too familiar with having a line end before all the books come out or get translated. I swear, one of these days I'm going to go back and work on my Spanish just so I can finally read the second setting book for the Anima: Beyond Fantasy rpg.
I was about to mention Evil Hat in the thread about a publisher making you stop buying - if you're not woke you're not welcome, because inclusion.
Kinda back on topic:
Imagine if gamers were not informed that people do not have hit points, in real life. The horror!
Quote from: Brand55;1059516That sucks. I don't care for Fate Core, but I'm all too familiar with having a line end before all the books come out or get translated. I swear, one of these days I'm going to go back and work on my Spanish just so I can finally read the second setting book for the Anima: Beyond Fantasy rpg.
Fate Core I took a long time to learn. It was not easy. By any stretch of the imagination.
It was like learning a new language. But in the end, I believed the effort was worth it.
The Toolkit series always seemed to answer questions. So the ones they canceled means missed answers to lingering questions. The City Toolkit and the Infiltration Toolkit are pertty big losses to me.
Quote from: Eisenmann;1059522I was about to mention Evil Hat in the thread about a publisher making you stop buying - if you're not woke you're not welcome, because inclusion.
Kinda back on topic:
Imagine if gamers were not informed that people do not have hit points, in real life. The horror!
One of my favorite fanfics ever is "Harry Potter and the Natural 20" wherein a D&D Wizard (and munchkin) winds up in the Harry Potter universe. One of the funniest bits ever was the absolute horror with with the school nurse reacted to the way Milo healed from injuries (i.e. like a D&D character) to the point she was actually AFRAID to try any of her usual remedies upon him because his biology was just so different.
Other points included normal people not having saving throw scores (and thus always failed unless narratively convenient), but also didn't act in initiative order (which screwed him over several times)... oh, and salt is really cheap here so he absolutely exploited that to game the 3.5 item creation rules.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1059524Fate Core I took a long time to learn. It was not easy. By any stretch of the imagination.
It was like learning a new language. But in the end, I believed the effort was worth it.
The Toolkit series always seemed to answer questions. So the ones they canceled means missed answers to lingering questions. The City Toolkit and the Infiltration Toolkit are pertty big losses to me.
I wouldn't worry too much. From what I can tell, if fans say "we want a big book of stupid shit for your cash cow" then publishers will initially say "no, because that's a big book of stupid shit, and we love our cash cow too much." Then as time passes, and their cash cow stop providing milk, the publishers say "hey, there was so much demand for a big book of stupid shit (and we didn't have any better ideas) that we decided to cave to demand and make a big book of stupid shit to sell to you."
And then they do a new edition, because that way they can resell you all the books for their cash cow ("now with 15% new material!").
I doubt Fate Core will be any different, as long as Fred Hicks wants to sell Fate books... he has an old idea with some demand, which is better than a new idea.
Well honestly? I won't need a new edition of Fate. Because Fate Core works just fine for me as is.
I have managed to research what I want to make the system do the things I mostly want with it. So the Toolkits are just gravy to me.
The only one of them I consider important for my purposes right now. Is the Fate Accessibility Toolkit. Which is the next release.
Quote from: san dee jota;1059379"HUGS FOR THE HUG GOD! PUPPIES FOR THE PUPPY THRONE!"
"Can I at least still have crab-clawed hermaphrodites? I promise they won't actually -do- anything, because that might be scary. They'll just... uh... be pretty?"
Damn it. Now I want a G-rated Warhammer. And yes, I know there are children novels coming out. I'm thinking more "Warhammer for Toddlers", like Peppa Pig... but with Skaven. "Miss Grey Seer is the busiest Skaven beneath the Empire. Today though, she's sick. So Sally Skaven and friends will have to fill in her work!" "But Daddy Skaven, why do -I- have to clean out the slave pits?!?!" "Rat-Ogre! Grrr!"
(start a post by telling people how to adult. End a post with a Peppa Pig parody. Sounds about right for the internet.)
Thank you for this. My toddler has just grown out of Peppa Pig, and is into Paw Patrol.
I miss Peppa Pig.
Quote from: san dee jota;1059510I'd argue it's about the sudden removal of feeling safe personally, with dread being the ongoing removal of feeling safe.
I agree!
That's what you get for buying books from these people.
Quote from: S'mon;1059234I agree - of course personal insanity can be even more horrific, especially if you see it happening. I guess insanity in one's loved ones is probably the most horrific of all.
Well, being stabbed with a sword or having your head smashed in with a mace is probably horrific, too, I imagine. That's what roleplaying games do: deal with horrific things, generally in a light-hearted way.
In Call of Cthulhu you see something horrific and are at first disturbed, then if it happens enough you go permanently insane. In other rpgs, you are stabbed or shot and are first slightly wounded, then it if happens enough or is severe enough, you are permanently disabled or killed. Death is pretty horrific; just consider how much money and effort and time we spend to avoid it in ourselves and loved ones.
So if you can have fighting and wounding and dismemberment and killing in your rpgs, then you can have people going mad. And we don't need a lecture on sensitive treatment of mental illness in an rpg any more than we need a lecture on sensitive treatment of someone having their head cut off with an axe.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1060805That's what you get for buying books from these people.
It's the only time it happened. Just the one book I have an issue with.
My plans with Fate are pretty simple. I'm going to bend, spindle and mutilate it to my heart's content.
The one redeeming faculty of FATE is that it's easy to mutilate.
Had a player way back who really liked the Fate system. But so far I have not yet had a chance to actually look at it.
Quote from: Xuc Xac;1059383Yes, because violence is a binary quality. There are no options between Teletubbies and a torture porn gore fest draped in entrails dripping with blood and shit.
My brain promptly combined those images. I am now torn between wanting to laugh and wanting to throw up. D**n you, sir, d**n you!
I must now stat up Teletubbie Cenobites.
For ALL THE SYSTEMS.
I may be a while...
Quote from: Spike;1065152I must now stat up Teletubbie Cenobites.
I cannot unsee the images that my mind just constructed...:eek:
Thanks a lot
Quote from: RPGPundit;1064823The one redeeming faculty of FATE is that it's easy to mutilate.
I'd like to add it has a few decent setting books you could run with any generic system that's actually an RPG.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1064823The one redeeming faculty of FATE is that it's easy to mutilate.
Well, it is based on Amber.
Quote from: Spike;1065152I must now stat up Teletubbie Cenobites.
Tinky-Winky has such sights to show you.
Their puzzle box has soft, rounded corners and a big, friendly button in the most inviting shade of red. So tempting. If you put your finger on the button and try to remove it, your finger sticks for just a moment, as though the button was reluctant to let you go.
I already railed against stupidity and forced politics into a setting because they try to indoctrinate people to their ideology.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1065266Well, it is based on Amber.
What..? Is that true? I thought it was just a FUDGE derivative.
Quote from: Spike;1065152I must now stat up Teletubbie Cenobites.
For ALL THE SYSTEMS.
I may be a while...
The In Dark Alleys intro adventure has a scene involving monstrous teletubby lookalikes.
I've kind of noticed this stuff from the Fate community in general. They tend to lean pretty heavily in the SJW direction and have a pretty high level of intolerance towards outside views. This little excerpt is from Sarah Newton's new Fate Core fantasy setting, Future Earth:
QuoteA Note on Sex and Gender
The Venerable Autocracy of Sakara has lots of social
hang-ups and ways in which people are prejudiced
against one another, but they have nothing to do
with sex and gender. Naturally occurring contracep-
tive plants and sorcerous cantrips affecting fertility
have meant that women have controlled their bod-
ies for longer than recorded history, so the pressures
which led to women's oppression in our own histories
have not applied. Additionally, Judeo-Christian mo-
rality died out many tens of millennia ago, and the
Autocracy has an often bewildering array of gender
roles and sexual identities, none of which have any
bearing on a person's status or occupation. In a world
inhabited by aliens and evolutionarily divergent
hominids, where gods, sorcery, and demons are real,
and where Chaos gnaws at the fibres of existence, sex
and gender are not significant preoccupations.
For ease of reading and comprehension, we refer to
players as "he" and the Chronicler (the game master)
as "she" in these rules. We hope that works for you.
Her stuff wasn't like this until it was, at least not the current degree. It's like a switch was flipped.
Quote from: Dracones;1065289I've kind of noticed this stuff from the Fate community in general. They tend to lean pretty heavily in the SJW direction and have a pretty high level of intolerance towards outside views. This little excerpt is from Sarah Newton's new Fate Core fantasy setting, Future Earth:
Quote from: Dracones;1065289I've kind of noticed this stuff from the Fate community in general. They tend to lean pretty heavily in the SJW direction and have a pretty high level of intolerance towards outside views. This little excerpt is from Sarah Newton's new Fate Core fantasy setting, Future Earth:
Quotesex and gender are not significant preoccupations
Except that excerpt is significantly preoccupied with sex, to the point that there's a long explanation as to why it's "not a big deal". If it's NOT a big deal, why are SJWs obsessed with the matter?
Quote from: Brad;1065333Except that excerpt is significantly preoccupied with sex, to the point that there's a long explanation as to why it's "not a big deal". If it's NOT a big deal, why are SJWs obsessed with the matter?
It's a pendulum.
The Judeo-Christian Patriarchy has been obsessed with sex since the dawn of time. Who can marry who, who gets to have sex, when, how... It's an effective control mechanism. It was the built in nicotine of human physiology. People get horny. You control when they can scratch that itch, you can control them.
So, it only makes sense that the rebelion to that culture would also focus on sex. Except it's sexual freedom OR sexual indifference. If sex isn't important, you can't control people with sex.
As long as people get horny, you are going to be able to have sex as a taboo or a fetish. In some ways, people lose control when they get aroused. People have and continue to do stupid shit for sex. It has power over us.
Some people are hoping they can convince the world it no longer has power. And they will fail. Just like the JCP is slowly losing it's grasp/authority so too will the CTRL-leftists.
In the end people long to be free. Free from authority, free from guilt, free from judgment. That Pendulum is gonna keep swinging back and forth until we all agree to stop fucking with each other or trying to tell each other what to do.
Quote from: trechriron;1065339It's a pendulum.
The Judeo-Christian Patriarchy has been obsessed with sex since the dawn of time. Who can marry who, who gets to have sex, when, how... It's an effective control mechanism. It was the built in nicotine of human physiology. People get horny. You control when they can scratch that itch, you can control them.
So, it only makes sense that the rebelion to that culture would also focus on sex. Except it's sexual freedom OR sexual indifference. If sex isn't important, you can't control people with sex.
As long as people get horny, you are going to be able to have sex as a taboo or a fetish. In some ways, people lose control when they get aroused. People have and continue to do stupid shit for sex. It has power over us.
Some people are hoping they can convince the world it no longer has power. And they will fail. Just like the JCP is slowly losing it's grasp/authority so too will the CTRL-leftists.
In the end people long to be free. Free from authority, free from guilt, free from judgment. That Pendulum is gonna keep swinging back and forth until we all agree to stop fucking with each other or trying to tell each other what to do.
Well, that's somewhat condescending.
Quote from: Brad;1065286What..? Is that true? I thought it was just a FUDGE derivative.
Fudge was the base system yes, but the story game aspects and economy were heavily influenced by the Good/Bad Stuff from Amber, the story game lineage is clear.
Quote from: trechriron;1065339It's a pendulum.
Or, regardless where the pendulum is, there's a strain of Lysenkoism convinced that they can create the New *-Man.
Quote from: trechriron;1065339It's a pendulum. The Judeo-Christian Patriarchy has been obsessed with sex since the dawn of time.
Before I possibly miss the point and waste time and effort on a diatribe, can I just ask: how far into the cheek should the tongue be assumed to be pushed, here? I'm oversensitive on certain topics.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1064596So if you can have fighting and wounding and dismemberment and killing in your rpgs, then you can have people going mad. And we don't need a lecture on sensitive treatment of mental illness in an rpg any more than we need a lecture on sensitive treatment of someone having their head cut off with an axe.
Now I want to see someone
try to do a sensitive treatment of someone having their head cut off with an axe. Oh, it won't work, but the effort should be worth a few laughs.
Re the excerpt from Sarah Newton's new game--it is a little preachy, but stripped of the rhetoric (and there isn't a lot of that) the underlying ideas seem fine to me: (1) it's the far future so Judeo-Christian morality is not a factor and (2) the society doesn't care about a person's sex or gender. The first makes sense, though it ultimately probably doesn't have a huge amount to do with distinctions in gender roles, etc. The second is just pretty standard for a lot of games today, for good reason--at least a fair amount of the player base wants all careers/classes/whatever open to all characters regardless of their sex.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1065348Before I possibly miss the point and waste time and effort on a diatribe, can I just ask: how far into the cheek should the tongue be assumed to be pushed, here? I'm oversensitive on certain topics.
Reads to me like the standard libertarian/free-love/Freudian variant of the Enlightenment/Rousseau 'noble savage' myth--mankind was free and innocent at first, but became oppressed and repressed by the evil forces of Civilization/Christianity/Patriarchy/SJWism/Whatever the Anti-Libertarian Demon of the Week is.
Quote from: Fritzef;1065474Re the excerpt from Sarah Newton's new game--it is a little preachy, but stripped of the rhetoric (and there isn't a lot of that) the underlying ideas seem fine to me: (1) it's the far future so Judeo-Christian morality is not a factor and (2) the society doesn't care about a person's sex or gender. The first makes sense, though it ultimately probably doesn't have a huge amount to do with distinctions in gender roles, etc. The second is just pretty standard for a lot of games today, for good reason--at least a fair amount of the player base wants all careers/classes/whatever open to all characters regardless of their sex.
The only reason we have distinct races is because of A) geographic isolation, or B) taboos against miscegenation. It's unlikely either will be factors in the far future. So in the far future humans will no longer have races.
When I pointed this out on a SF/F fiction board discussion about diversity and representation in the science fiction genre, it was not well received. Progressive identarians are so obsessed with notions of race and representation that they can't even imagine moving past it. I'd love for a tabletop game publisher to depict a future human society where there are no distinguishable races, just to freak out both the far left and far right.
Quote from: Haffrung;1065478The only reason we have distinct races is because of A) geographic isolation, or B) taboos against miscegenation. It's unlikely either will be factors in the far future. So in the far future humans will no longer have races.
When I pointed this out on a SF/F fiction board discussion about diversity and representation in the science fiction genre, it was not well received. Progressive identarians are so obsessed with notions of race and representation that they can't even imagine moving past it. I'd love for a tabletop game publisher to depict a future human society where there are no distinguishable races, just to freak out both the far left and far right.
IIRC this was Larry Niven's take on Earth's population in the Known Space series. There was still some racial differentiation on the colony worlds because they had been settled by small populations and isolated for a time, before FTL travel. I'd certainly be fine with the idea of no racial differentiation among humans.
I can't remember if Sarah Newton's
Chronicles of Future Earth setting has different races of humans, or not. I own the old version, for BRP, and I might be interested in the new one if it weren't for FATE, a system I'm not keen on.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1065476Reads to me like the standard libertarian/free-love/Freudian variant of the Enlightenment/Rousseau 'noble savage' myth--mankind was free and innocent at first, but became oppressed and repressed by the evil forces of Civilization/Christianity/Patriarchy/SJWism/Whatever the Anti-Libertarian Demon of the Week is.
That was mostly how I read it too, I just wasn't sure how much of that (if any) Trechriron was actually advocating. I figured I'd rather look obtuse for asking about the point than for reacting to the wrong one.
(This is one of the reasons I dislike satire as an art form -- I find it hard enough to thematically interpret writing without the satirist's deliberate ambiguity about what's meant seriously and what isn't.)
Quote from: Haffrung;1065478The only reason we have distinct races is because of A) geographic isolation, or B) taboos against miscegenation. It's unlikely either will be factors in the far future. So in the far future humans will no longer have races.
Or there'll be
different "races". The Expanse presents this well: after a couple of centuries in low gravity, the Belters are tall, thin, with large heads and knobbly joints, and have their own dialect incomprehensible to "Inners". There's a Martian who has an Indian appearance but talks with a Texan drawl; the part of Mars he's from had a mix of settlers from both areas, who didn't separate into ghettoes, but faced with the common enemy of the brutal Martian environment, and stuck together in domes, worked together and mixed, now they're "Martian." But to the Belters, Mars, Earth, same-same. "Inners."
Across the world there are many races who conquered and mixed with others and who are now forgotten, with few if any of their cultural traditions continuing, and when one race moved to a new place, it became a different race. Is there anyone in the world now who identifies as an Angle, a Saxon, or a Jute, except as an affectation for historical reproduction purposes? But they mixed with the Danish and Norman invaders to make "the English."
The SJW, like the CJW, both being fundamentally American phenomena, fails to understand that different countries have different conceptions of "race". This was well-illustrated in the movie Tears of the Sun, where a US SF team is debating whether to save one bunch of locals from being butchered by the others. Apart from the whole "white man saves innocent darkies from other savage darkies" colonial theme, the discussion had the guys expressing different opinions, but the African-American one said, "these are my people." Now, was he a migrant, or son of migrants to the US? It was mentioned. So had he traced his family tree back to 1678 to find out which particular group of Africans he'd come from? It seems unlikely. Thus, most likely he was not descended from any of the groups involved, but if he was, he was as likely to be descended from the butchers as from the victims. But this black man's character written by a white man had him identifying with the victims. Why? Because that is part of "race" identity in the US: being a victim. To Americans, there are no Hutu or Tutsi or whatever, there are only blacks and whites. To the African, identity has far more subtleties.
Likewise Indians, Chinese and so on.
I would expect that even if humanity reaches the stars, we see similar things. New races will emerge, influenced by their environment and their roots. The reality of "race" and anthropology are far more complex than either Social Justice Warrior or Conservative Justice Warrior understand, because both have their roots in American culture, which is essentially Manichean, with Good vs Evil, black vs white, etc, and no sensible middle ground where things are acknowledged as being mixed up and confused, and thus more interesting, but much harder to make moral judgements about.
Anyway. If humanity reaches the stars, we'll get more races. And thinking about the sorts of things which might happen is the point of science fiction.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1065513That was mostly how I read it too, I just wasn't sure how much of that (if any) Trechriron was actually advocating. I figured I'd rather look obtuse for asking about the point than for reacting to the wrong one.
(This is one of the reasons I dislike satire as an art form -- I find it hard enough to thematically interpret writing without the satirist's deliberate ambiguity about what's meant seriously and what isn't.)
Satire and sarcasm are hard to pick out on the internet. There's no position too crazy for a person to sincerely hold.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1065518Satire and sarcasm are hard to pick out on the internet. There's no position too crazy for a person to sincerely hold.
True. And these days a misinterpretation either way -- taking a joking remark seriously or assuming a serious remark was a joke -- has the potential to cause so much
tsuris that it's almost not worth saying anything at all.
(In the spirit of full disclosure, I'm a little too emotionally thin-skinned for certain environments anyway. Which is one reason I tend to sympathize with people who appear to have the same problem, regardless of politics. But anything that helps me fake my ongoing imposture of maturity is gladly welcomed. :) )
Quote from: Haffrung;1065478The only reason we have distinct races is because of A) geographic isolation, or B) taboos against miscegenation. It's unlikely either will be factors in the far future. So in the far future humans will no longer have races.
H. Beam Piper did sort of the opposite. He thought that people in the future would still have races, but because of miscegenation, there would be no relationship between names/culture and race. So he would have things like a huge red headed Viking guy have a Japanese name
Looking outside my window, seeing how easily we can mix together and yet, how people STILL segregate themselves, and even make up new classifications for 'races', I beg to differ. Humanity won't change a bit.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1065560Looking outside my window, seeing how easily we can mix together and yet, how people STILL segregate themselves, and even make up new classifications for 'races', I beg to differ. Humanity won't change a bit.
I think there will still be visually distinguishable population groups in the future, yes. Although some will be different from today.
Quote from: S'mon;1065576I think there will still be visually distinguishable population groups in the future, yes. Although some will be different from today.
I posit that the major nations of Mankind will still exist a thousand years from now, never mind that races still exist, and in the far future they all have stellar domains of their own. (No "empire" in my future, yet; the first to try is literally trying to rebuild the Tower of Babel as the basis for imperium.) Man can't change his nature. Only his environment, and then only to a finite degree.
Just send a generation of kids to public school if you want everyone to hate the same things. Then use social media to focus their hate on whatever you need to virtue signal.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1065517If humanity reaches the stars, we'll get more races.
Agreed. And its going to happen on Earth in 1000 years. Maybe sooner. Just look at world map/demographics/cultures in 10th century vs. today. Just imagine year 12,018.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1065517Is there anyone in the world now who identifies as an Angle, a Saxon, or a Jute, except as an affectation for historical reproduction purposes?
You would seriously be surprised. There are people in England who identify as Saxons, not Anglo-Saxon, but Saxons.
Yes but they don't speak Saxon, or even Old English, nor do they worship Thunor, and they wouldn't know a seax from shortbread. So it's just an affectation. I know of a Yorkshire woman who asked a friend how they could be friends with someone from Lancashire, "because what about the War of the Roses?" So there's always the odd dickhead who mouths off, but there's nothing behind it.
Cultures die, rot and become compost to grow the next culture.
I've twice caused people with claustrophobia to have reactions (negative) to the game. Both via chat programs, not live. (I've caused and triggered other fears in the past as well unintentionally in FTF games.) So at least giving a GM a heads up "Hey this bothers me, please don't include it," is at the very least something I as a GM will take time to listen to, and try and avoid actually making people afraid to the point that REAL world hurt is done to them. Yes, such fears CAN cause real-world hurt to some people-- it's not something they can control, that's why its a phobia. I'm not saying take away horror or fear aspects, but try and be kinder with ones people have in real life.
Quote from: Silverlion;1065776I've twice caused people with claustrophobia to have reactions (negative) to the game. Both via chat programs, not live. (I've caused and triggered other fears in the past as well unintentionally in FTF games.) So at least giving a GM a heads up "Hey this bothers me, please don't include it," is at the very least something I as a GM will take time to listen to, and try and avoid actually making people afraid to the point that REAL world hurt is done to them. Yes, such fears CAN cause real-world hurt to some people-- it's not something they can control, that's why its a phobia. I'm not saying take away horror or fear aspects, but try and be kinder with ones people have in real life.
I've had this once, where the PCs were attacked by an insect swarm and one player was visibly distressed, turned out she had a phobia of swarming things, so I never used it again.
Quote from: Brad;1065286What..? Is that true? I thought it was just a FUDGE derivative.
FATE wasn't really based on Amber, certainly not the game. It was inspired by Amber; I think meant to be a set of rules (different from Amber) to play the Amber setting with.
Quote from: Lynn;1059430It is from Evil Hat. I like some of their stuff - especially Don't Rest Your Head, but I had to unfollow anyone associated with the company a long time ago because of the overbearing political crap. They aren't doing very well either:
https://www.evilhat.com/home/refocused-resized-hat-mode-activated/
Another case of get woke go broke right here.
Quote from: dungeon crawler;1066092Another case of get woke go broke right here.
Practically couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of assholes.
I think it's less going Woke and then Broke and more too much expansion too fast. While trying to reinvent the same rpg too often imo. While working on too many rpgs. Counting Fate core the have fourteen rpgs. They never struck me as a big enough company to handle all that production while affording to buy so many IPs.
Quote from: dungeon crawler;1066092Another case of get woke go broke right here.
From the article:
"We believe that narrowing our focus to focus on our core strengths will be best for helping us get back into the black in 2019."Sounds like diversity wasn't their strength.
Quote from: antiochcow;1066438From the article:
"We believe that narrowing our focus to focus on our core strengths will be best for helping us get back into the black in 2019."
Sounds like diversity wasn't their strength.
Narrowing to focus on a core group
is diversity today.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1066475Narrowing to focus on a core group is diversity today.
That's correct. It's Orwellian double-speak.