Quote from: Haffrung;355949Yep. And it has sub-systems growing on sub-systems, sprouting off sub-systems.

So we can see that by the 90s the hobby was already veering into the heavy side. Earthdawn's fans don't consider it a heavy game, but it's way, way more mechanically complex than Basic D&D.

I wonder actually if the '90s was a high watermark, my impression is that 4e is less daunting than Earthdawn for example.

Quote from: Soylent Green;355928I think veteran roleplayers sometimes forget how dense D&D lore is. I guess since the LotR movies and WoW have made high fantasy more mainstream, but I recall how totally confusing it was for me when I first played with all the races and seemigly arbitrary restrictions. Even the basic concent pf "adventuring" in the sense of going into a dungeon, killing all the monsters and taking all the gold seemed like a very alien thing to do.

Something like Star Wars of James Bond is much more accessible and places no crazy lore barriers between the novice player and the setting.

In one sense I agree with this, but I also think that 90% of D&D's target market are probably at least broadly familiar with fantasy lit. Moreso nowadays because of yes, WoW, the LotR films and Harry Potter.

Quote from: Balbinus;355925I can see how it holds for earlier editions, do folk think it still holds true for 3e and 4e?  Those seemed to require a lot more choices, but that may be my misimpression.

My friend is running a group of 5-8 year olds through 4e, and has been for about 6-7 months now.  They all got it, in the first session.  So I'd say yes.

Quote from: Soylent Green;355928I think veteran roleplayers sometimes forget how dense D&D lore is. I guess since the LotR movies and WoW have made high fantasy more mainstream, but I recall how totally confusing it was for me when I first played with all the races and seemigly arbitrary restrictions. Even the basic concent pf "adventuring" in the sense of going into a dungeon, killing all the monsters and taking all the gold seemed like a very alien thing to do.

Something like Star Wars of James Bond is much more accessible and places no crazy lore barriers between the novice player and the setting.

That may be true, but I think that has changed since we started gaming (I did in 1985). I don't think OD&D lore is so dense this days, unless you ply in an official setting.

Quote from: David R;355958Good link Ramon. I really like what this guy has to say. And he's spot on about Forge/Trad games and the level of player investment. In fact kyle has more or less said the same thing. I'm going to keep visiting this guy and of course carry on with the Evil DM's blog

Thanks. The guy has also a lot of neat articles about setting stuff.

Quote from: Balbinus;355965I wonder actually if the '90s was a high watermark, my impression is that 4e is less daunting than Earthdawn for example.

4e is far less daunting than Earthdawn 1e. Or at least that has been our experience.

Chargen in almost all systems only becomes a problem if you think Meta-gamey. If you think about the role its easy.

I want to play a fighter who has a bit of that old heroic epic about him. i want to be able to cite some ancient legends that inspired him to take up steel. Okay I'll pick this class and these feats and powers to fit that concept. Anyone with imagination can do this, It's just putting rules round 'let's pretend'.

Character gen gets to be a pain when you are thinking meta game. How do I best optimise this character to get best outcome that fulfil the 'controller' type or the 'tank' type. Etc etc .... Since I would never do that and find people that do do that in games a bit of a pain in the arse  (because they also tend to be the guys that say, but if I am running and dodging the rules say archers get -4 to hit me not the usual -2 for just running) making characters in any system has always been a pleasure for me as opposed to a complex puzzle to be unlocked.

Also a good GM will enable the players to use their skills and encourage free thought and imagination so a bunch of new players round a table should have no problem with getting used to combat and stuff because for the first few encounters the GM should be holding their hands, although I would do this using weak opponents that can do similar things to show thaem how such things can be used as opposed to giving them direct advice although that elderly knight/sorceror/theif/jedi master that meets the party at the start and helps them through the first few combats and then gets killed thus setting up the revenge plot hook is just as good (hey if it works for Star Wars/LotR/Dodgeball...)

Quote from: Mistwell;356026My friend is running a group of 5-8 year olds through 4e, and has been for about 6-7 months now.  They all got it, in the first session.  So I'd say yes.

Isn't that a bit young to be trying to introduce kids to RPGs and D&D in particular?

I branched out from D&D a while ago and created my own ruleset.
2 major discoveries were;
a) Every game has a learning curve.
b) Too much freedom can be a bad thing (decide where you want your players to be creative by limiting it, them they will expend the efforts where you want them to.)

SO I like this post.

I pretty much agree with the OP, though I wouldn't contain it to just D&D.  I find that for new players any game that is basically formed from a pick and choose list for characters and it's primary play is essentially made from rather obvious action/reaction checks is easier to catch on to.  Those games don't limit freedom they however do provide a list of things to do when you aren't feeling imaginative.  They have a safety net.  Even though I've been role playing for well over 2 decades I still like that safety net.  Personally I find it more fun to not always have to be on the ball.

This applies to pretty much any real commercial RPG that you can buy in most every gaming store.  D&D is just the most commonly known one.  But D&D, Warhammer, Shadowrun, Palladium, White Wolf etc... they all follow into this category.  They have mechanics for logical actions that can be performed and optional rules to cover non-standard actions.

Quote from: Stuart;356069Isn't that a bit young to be trying to introduce kids to RPGs and D&D in particular?

Braindamage! :pundit:

I played an RPG with my son first when he was 4; my daughter voluntarily joined in a year later when she was 3.  It's a matter of controlling the content and approach.  But they "got it" in all the ways that Ramon was highlighting.

!i!

This is kind of related to my thoughts over on the topic of Old School vs New School. Or so it seems to me.
 
I suspect the ease with which D&D is picked up explains much of its popularity. If I have 3-4 hours a week to play games, I want something easy to play right away, and I do not want to devote myself to one game. I want to play more games than that.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;356104Braindamage! :pundit:

I played an RPG with my son first when he was 4; my daughter voluntarily joined in a year later when she was 3.  It's a matter of controlling the content and approach.  But they "got it" in all the ways that Ramon was highlighting.

!i!

I can't see why the shouldn't.

I started roleplaying when I was 9, and I don't think I was too precocious.

Good post there, thanks for the linkage.
The guy's got some good clear thoughts going on.

I don't really agree with this post.  It seems to be saying that D&D is for dumb people.

Quote from: Maddman;356403I don't really agree with this post.  It seems to be saying that D&D is for dumb people.

Dude's running a D&D campaign, so I'm not sure that's the message he was shooting for.  I'd say his point was that the learning curve is not as steep as some RPGs.

What I got out of it is that when you have a game that is actually a game, it's a lot easier to play and to get inbterested in if you aren't already some self-declared Thespian. Being all pretendy and making up stories can be a lot of fun, but it in itself isn't a game. If you don't have a game to hang it on, and that's all there is.. well, that's not enough.

That description at the beginning is dead on:

Quote"Me: "Ok, now you have to describe your character in 50 words. Anything you want."

Mandy: "Fuck this."

Hi, that's called a completely normal adult reaction. For some reason, very few people inside the hobby can see this for what it is.

Controversial point: This is why "rules lite" has limited appeal with new players. New players counterintuitively (well, only if you aren't paying attention) will choose the game with well defined rules over the "rules lite" thing, because they recognize it the one with rules as a game, and games can be learned.