...in a continuing effort to turn discussions from Off-Topic into RPG settings....Alright with all this silly talk of an "American Empire" down in the off topic section, I vaguely remembered a humorous website that linked from some Alternate History timeline discussions.
This was originally posted in 2003,...Enjoy!:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/us_rome.htm
I especially love this bit from the fictional year 2161:
QuoteAt the Battle of Singapore, Kennedy Clinton Roosevelt defeats the combined forces of George Bush Clinton and Indira Evita Thatcher, and assumes sole control over the Republic
This pretty good too:
Quote2229-2233: Regime of Jefferson Walker Bush-Roosevelt
Now , What kind of roleplaying game could you do in that setting and timeline???
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;241930Now , What kind of roleplaying game could you do in that setting and timeline???
- Ed C.
I'm only interested in this campaign if it included dancing girls. Imperial dancing girls.
My very successful Hunter campaign was set in an alt American timeline. The American Empire or if you prefer Hegemon was in decline though.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: gleichman;241939I'm only interested in this campaign if it included dancing girls. Imperial dancing girls.
With accurately modeled gender-differentiated character stats.
!i!
Quote from: Ian Absentia;241947With accurately modeled gender-differentiated character stats.
Hell with that, the only requirement is that their highest stat is in comeliness :)
Well, of course the natural choice is CyberPunk 2.0.2.0. Skew the included timeline a bit, make Arasaka a subsidiary of Militech, and so on.
All the edge running will be going on in the Rust Belt or overseas, everything else is the pure utopia engendered and fiercely protected by the Empire.
Oh, I know!
Can I play in an America that's a bad as Jackalope, Pseudoephedrine, and others say it is? I want to be member of the secret police and get to whack any who oppose Manifest Density. I want a trenchcoat and a Katana. Oh, and an Uzi.
Cause it really sucks that this evil America of ours is such a wimp to it's foes...
Maybe I can be Vampire too.
Wait.
The Uzi isn't American made. scratch that. How about a good of fashion Thompson? Retro Evil is cool too right?
Ah a Ameriwank got to love them.
Here is the current darling of the AH Forum.
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=92281
Enjoy
Rob Conley
Quote from: gleichman;241948Hell with that, the only requirement is that their highest stat is in comeliness :)
Like I was saying...
!i!
Quote from: gleichman;241954Wait.
The Uzi isn't American made.
Sure it is. The 51st state of the Union.
!i!
I like the Medieval America setting on the same page.
Quote from: Ian Absentia;241973Sure it is. The 51st state of the Union.
Misogynism and some anti-semitism, I guess you win.
Are you kidding? That was totally PRO-Semitism.* :p As for the misogyny rap, I like women in harem attire.
!i!
(*Honestly, the first person I ever heard make that joke was an Israeli.)
Quote from: Ian Absentia;241985(*Honestly, the first person I ever heard make that joke was an Israeli.)
I bet when you drop N-word jokes, you follow up the stares with, "but a black friend told me it!"
If they were the 51st state - that would be pretty cool.
...but it would be a different alt timeline.
And hey - I already know TWO GURPS players that live there.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;241991If they were the 51st state - that would be pretty cool.
...but it would be a different alt timeline.
And hey - I already know TWO GURPS players that live there.
- Ed C.
So some of your best friends live in Israel?
Quote from: CavScout;241988I bet when you drop N-word jokes, you follow up the stares with, "but a black friend told me it!"
Well, you just sucked the life out of the thread.
Did it occur to you that I might be Jewish? Did it occur to you that one can treat Israeli politics and the Jewish faith as separate subjects? Did it occur to you that a comment on the intertwined political fates of the US and Israel might be ironic and not anti-Semitic? Did it occur to you that the irony was intended to ratchet up the pre-existing irony of the "Ameriwank" alt-history? Did it occur to you that it might all have been in the spirit of a rare moment of fun between Brian and me? Or were you just out to be a dumb-ass?
!i!
Quote from: Ian Absentia;242016Or were you just out to be a dumb-ass?
Out
as a dumbarse.
Quote from: Ian Absentia;242016Well, you just sucked the life out of the thread.
Did it occur to you that I might be Jewish? Did it occur to you that one can treat Israeli politics and the Jewish faith as separate subjects? Did it occur to you that a comment on the intertwined political fates of the US and Israel might be ironic and not anti-Semitic? Did it occur to you that the irony was intended to ratchet up the pre-existing irony of the "Ameriwank" alt-history? Did it occur to you that it might all have been in the spirit of a rare moment of fun between Brian and me? Or were you just out to be a dumb-ass?
!i!
Oooh ooh! I know this one! It's the dumb-ass one right?
Quote from: Age of Fable;241981I like the Medieval America setting on the same page.
Although it has the disadvantage that it's relatively difficult to turn into a screaming argument about nothing.
Keep the non-RPG hate in OT guys. That place is getting unreadable anyway, let's not let this forum degenerate too. CavScout, I'm calling you out here.
My Champions campaign world features an alternate universe were the Imperial States of America rules with an iron fist. It's called the Mirror Universe, after the Star Trek episode
Mirror, Mirror. It's our world, except everyone is fundamentally evil instead of good.
In my regular campaign world there is a government sponsored superteam called The Star-Spangled Alliance. They're based loosely on Force of July (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_of_July). Their membership includes:
- The Patriot was a bionically enhanced Vietnam War veteran who was getting on in years, but had tremendous experience making up for his diminishing power. He wore a modernized version of the continental soldier uniform, with a domino mask. Fond of saying "I'm getting too old for this shit." Originated as one of my own PCs.
- Lady Liberty was a young mutant woman whose fire-generation powers activated while she was in the military. She was equipped with a torch that focused her power to create fire-beams. A total rip-off of the DC character, down to the Lady Liberty costume.
- The Unknown Soldier was a Gulf War veteran who benefited from the most recent versions of the same technology that made The Patriot. Cocky and headstrong, he doesn't get along with The Patriot, seeing himself as the "New and Improved" version. He doesn't like the super-identity the military gave him, he doesn't understand the reference. Loosely based on the DC character of the same name.
- American Eagle is a Native American with super strength and reflexes. A former radical who worked with AIM under the guise Tomahawk, he and The Patriot became good friends during the civil rights era (re: Captain America & Falcon). He's loosely based on the Marvel character of the same name.
Their Mirror Universe counterparts were an occasional menace to my players, as they occasionally found their way over to the normal universe. Their name was
Pax Americana, and their members were:
- The Patriot was identical to the character above, except evil.
- The White Wizard was a member of the Klu Klux Klan, a powerful public institution in Imperial America. He had fire generation powers similar to Lady Liberty and wore a Klan uniform.
- The Unknown Stormtrooper was identical to the Unknown Soldier above, but do to brain trauma was an ambitionless psychopathic monster. His uniform was a khaki SS uniform with slightly different insignia, and the same bandages as the original character.
- Night Hawk was another Klan superhero, essentially a superhuman assassin who dressed like Snake-Eyes (techno-ninja). On the surface, he's indistinguishable from the latest version of Nighthawk from Squadron Supreme (seen in Supreme Power).
An American empire has to be lead by Emperor Norton I. - no ifs, ands or buts allowed.
Quote from: Skyrock;242045An American empire has to be lead by Emperor Norton I. - no ifs, ands or buts allowed.
Now
that could be really amusing.
- Ed C.
My problem with alt-American History stories is that they all either mine the overworked "British-winning-the-Revolutionary-War-and-hanging-Washington-&-Co." or are just excuses for socio-political diatribes containing a lot of heavy-handed contemporary/pop culture references ("...and Paris Hilton really ran in and won the 2008 elections!" Harhar. Not.)
I'd like to see more well-thought-out alt-history settings about America that carefully explore how certain events or people have influenced history. There are a lot (relatively speaking) that deal with such things that occur in other times and places and actually seem more like exercises in speculative thinking rather than thinly-veiled political criticism.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242050There are a lot (relatively speaking) that deal with such things that occur in other times and places and actually seem more like exercises in speculative thinking rather than thinly-veiled political criticism.
Have you got any examples Col ? IMO political criticism is implicit in these alt history endeavours. I could be wrong but I'm trying to think of some examples where this isn't the case.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242050I'd like to see more well-thought-out alt-history settings about America that carefully explore how certain events or people have influenced history. There are a lot (relatively speaking) that deal with such things that occur in other times and places and actually seem more like exercises in speculative thinking rather than thinly-veiled political criticism.
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/
Probably one of the greatest of the alt america timelines, Decades of Darkness with a very evil United States of America.
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=8170
One I started but never really done much with
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=28565
Enjoy
Rob Conley
Quote from: David R;242054Have you got any examples Col ? IMO political criticism is implicit in these alt history endeavours. I could be wrong but I'm trying to think of some examples where this isn't the case.
Off the top of my head, the ones that leap to mind are actually from games - GURPS Infinite Worlds and Alternate Earths have a number of parallel worlds that don't seem to have a political agenda, and TORG's Orrorsh originates in a world where the timeline split off in Roman Empire times.
In literature, Kirk Mitchell's books about a Rome that never fell don't seem to have much in the way of strong, overt, contemporary political messages. S.M. Stirling's "The Peshawar Lancers" is another one that doesn't seem to have a political agenda.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242061Off the top of my head, the ones that leap to mind are actually from games - GURPS Infinite Worlds and Alternate Earths have a number of parallel worlds that don't seem to have a political agenda, and TORG's Orrorsh originates in a world where the timeline split off in Roman Empire times.
In literature, Kirk Mitchell's books about a Rome that never fell don't seem to have much in the way of strong, overt, contemporary political messages. S.M. Stirling's "The Peshawar Lancers" is another one that doesn't seem to have a political agenda.
I'll check them out.
Orrosh and the
Mitchell books sound esp interesting. I do have some of the
TORG supplements but I don't think I have
Orrosh.....which is weird because from your brief description it sounds like something I would like.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;242065I'll check them out. Orrosh and the Mitchell books sound esp interesting. I do have some of the TORG supplements but I don't think I have Orrosh.....which is weird because from your brief description it sounds like something I would like.
Regards,
David R
Well, Orrorsh posits a British Empire that is essentially alone in a world dominated by, well, horrors, as per the name. The history given for the world is interesting, and starts out fairly conventional, but given that it's filled with supernatural stuff after the Gaunt Man gets there, it may not be to your taste.
Quote from: Age of Fable;242021Although it has the disadvantage that it's relatively difficult to turn into a screaming argument about nothing.
Screw you and your anti-dark ages bigotry!
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242050My problem with alt-American History stories is that they all either mine the overworked "British-winning-the-Revolutionary-War-and-hanging-Washington-&-Co." or are just excuses for socio-political diatribes containing a lot of heavy-handed contemporary/pop culture references ("...and Paris Hilton really ran in and won the 2008 elections!" Harhar. Not.)
I strongly agree with this, which is why I can't take the whole thing seriously at all.
The type of alt US history I like is the classical. A world with superpowers for example. While that often goes off the rails to too common political diatribes, at least there's examples where it is just fun. Or rather used to be, I hate comics these days...
Quote from: CavScout;241988I bet when you drop N-word jokes, you follow up the stares with, "but a black friend told me it!"
Get over yourself.
Quote from: gleichman;242083I strongly agree with this, which is why I can't take the whole thing seriously at all.
The type of alt US history I like is the classical. A world with superpowers for example. While that often goes off the rails to too common political diatribes, at least there's examples where it is just fun. Or rather used to be, I hate comics these days...
I agree with the G-man here. What I'd like to see is some alt-"all the rest of the self-righteous world that thinks their shit doesn't stink" history. Otherwise, just gimme some stuff like superhero alt-history that can avoid making heavy-handed political rants disguised as fiction.
Quote from: gleichman;242083I strongly agree with this, which is why I can't take the whole thing seriously at all.
The type of alt US history I like is the classical. A world with superpowers for example. While that often goes off the rails to too common political diatribes, at least there's examples where it is just fun. Or rather used to be, I hate comics these days...
Although it wasn't perfect, I thought the JLU series handled this pretty well, really. Both the gov't and the JL had sympathetic positions and Superman worked out to be kind of a creepy bastard, which was pretty cool. I found myself rooting for the "Bad guys" on a couple of occasions.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242067Well, Orrorsh posits a British Empire that is essentially alone in a world dominated by, well, horrors, as per the name. The history given for the world is interesting, and starts out fairly conventional, but given that it's filled with supernatural stuff after the Gaunt Man gets there, it may not be to your taste.
Sounds interesting. I have got nearly all of the
TORG setting books -
Living Land, Nile Empire, Cyberpapacy, Nippon Tech, Land Below, Space Gods, Tharkold, Delphi Council Worldbook (Core Earth sourcebook), Terra - which like many
GURPS sourcebooks I buy even though I don't use the system.
Regards,
David R
Estar very cool links. Thanks!
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242050My problem with alt-American History stories is that they all either mine the overworked "British-winning-the-Revolutionary-War-and-hanging-Washington-&-Co." or are just excuses for socio-political diatribes containing a lot of heavy-handed contemporary/pop culture references ("...and Paris Hilton really ran in and won the 2008 elections!" Harhar. Not.)
I'd like to see more well-thought-out alt-history settings about America that carefully explore how certain events or people have influenced history. There are a lot (relatively speaking) that deal with such things that occur in other times and places and actually seem more like exercises in speculative thinking rather than thinly-veiled political criticism.
One reason that's not too common might be that you've got to look at social forces rather than personalities. Alt histories tend to take a more-or-less subtle Great Man approach - they deal almost entirely with the actions of "Great Men" or else with simplistic versions of states that can be practically personified ("Then France invades Cuba"). By contrast, real history tends to be driven much less by personalities (though of course certain people do affect it) and more by abstract, somewhat dull, economic considerations and political shifts. Because alt histories are a form of entertainment, they are interested in telling an entertaining story, so the dull stuff simply gets dropped as irrelevant.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;242129the dull stuff simply gets dropped as irrelevant.
At last, I understand why I've been dumped so many times. Thanks, Canada!
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;242129One reason that's not too common might be that you've got to look at social forces rather than personalities. Alt histories tend to take a more-or-less subtle Great Man approach - they deal almost entirely with the actions of "Great Men" or else with simplistic versions of states that can be practically personified ("Then France invades Cuba"). By contrast, real history tends to be driven much less by personalities (though of course certain people do affect it) and more by abstract, somewhat dull, economic considerations and political shifts. Because alt histories are a form of entertainment, they are interested in telling an entertaining story, so the dull stuff simply gets dropped as irrelevant.
My history teacher had a saying about US history: "Americans vote with their pocketbooks". Historically, Americans re-elect the guy/party who had a good economy in his term, or oust the incumbent guy/party if the economy sucked ass.
But that's boring as hell, and makes everyone sound like greedy fucks, so in spinning the history and the campaigns, it's always about Big Issues or whatever the hell.
Quote from: J Arcane;242140My history teacher had a saying about US history: "Americans vote with their pocketbooks". Historically, Americans re-elect the guy/party who had a good economy in his term, or oust the incumbent guy/party if the economy sucked ass.
But that's boring as hell, and makes everyone sound like greedy fucks, so in spinning the history and the campaigns, it's always about Big Issues or whatever the hell.
There is some truth to that. What makes t even more scary is the cyclic nature of the economy and how little real control presidents have over it.
In 20/20 hindsight - its not really an "alternative Timeline". At the time that guy created the web page it WAS 2003. I remember - thats when I first printed it out.
So if any thing its a Sci-Fi parody speculative timeline as in "What if, from this point forward....." kind of trimeline.
We may be reading it 'now' in 2008, but the present tense of when he first posted it was 2003 . (Like the big frigging note in the beginning of it says to the right of 2003)
- Ed C.
Quote from: CavScout;242144There is some truth to that. What makes t even more scary is the cyclic nature of the economy and how little real control presidents have over it.
For once, we agree. Alt-history especially wants to make everything in history Someone's Fault.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242050My problem with alt-American History stories is that they all either mine the overworked "British-winning-the-Revolutionary-War-and-hanging-Washington-&-Co." or are just excuses for socio-political diatribes containing a lot of heavy-handed contemporary/pop culture references ("...and Paris Hilton really ran in and won the 2008 elections!" Harhar. Not.)
In my American Empire world, the alternate history hinges on three points -- each a twisted inversion of the highest points in this country.
September 12th, 1787: Dissatisfied with the direction being taken by Phildelphia Conevention, George Washington betrays the other founders, declares himself King George the First, and has most of the congress arrested for sedition.
April 12, 1861: A slave uprising in South Carolina results in the destruction of Fort Sumner. Fearing that the entirety of the Southern states, which are 90% black, will be lost to a succession of slave revolts, King Franklin the Second mobilizes union troops, sparking the American Civil War. The war ends with the passage of Domination Proclamation and the passage of the 14th Amendment, that ensures that only white land-owning males will be recognized as citizens of the Kingdom.
January 30th, 1933: The Klu Klux Klan, in the guise of the American Unity Party takes control of the American government in the aftermath of the First World War (which has left America cut off from its once vast network of colony states), finally ending over 100 years of monarchy. Prime Minister Adolph Hitler, an Austrian immigrant, declares himself Emperor of the New American Empire, and launches an attack on Mexico. At first European powers seek to appease the new government, but after the fall of Canada the world is forced to respond. Thus begins the Second World War. A reinvigorated America allies itself with Japan and the United Kingdoms. These "Allied Powers" easily crush the Axis of Franco-Scandinavian Powers, and the war ends with the Dominant Empires Treaty Organization (DETO) in a lengthy cold war against the Russo-China Communist Alliance (RCCA). During this time American social planners enact the "final solution" to the "African Problem," leaving tens of millions dead.
The modern world of the American Empire is superficially similar to our world. Walk down an American street, and it looks pretty much like you expect. Maybe a little cleaner, a little wealthier. A lot less minorities, less immigrants. Fewer women in business suits. More orderly.
It's the little things you'd notice first. The flags are different. The post office logo is more...menacing. Everything seems a bit stuck in the past, a bit too Norman Rockwellish. Eventually you'll notice the Watchmen, following you, recording your movements. Then the police will show up, with their dogs and their shiny black uniforms, and you'll know you're in a much different place.
Quote from: Jackalope;242230It's the little things you'd notice first.
My version of the
World of Darkness for my
Hunter campaign is a little more subtle I think. It's set in an indeterminate present but the roots of the present malaise can be traced back to the 70's or thereabouts. Nixon didn't resign. There an occupation army in the Middle East. The big conspiracy is what happened to Apollo 13. In my design notes for the setting I concentrated a lot on culture to reflect what was going on in the world. I mean little details like, Spielberg wasn't even in the picture, the smartest boy in the classroom was a kid called Lucas who directed
Star Wars and then
Empire before becoming a Brian Wilson-like recluse only to come out of hiding to a direct a picture called
THX 1138. A paranoid director named Stone had a massive cult hit with a film called
13. The Black Panthers were actually a group of Hunters obsessively hunting for something called White Noise....
Quote from: David R;242235My version of the World of Darkness for my Hunter campaign is a little more subtle I think.
Probably. This was created a for a four-color comic book campaign after all. It's "three pages subtle," meaning you could keep the ruse up for about three pages in your average 70's comic before the big reveal.
It's also not the main campaign world, so the character get far less opportunity to interact with it. I've used references to the world in maybe a dozen adventures, but actual PCs have only gone there twice, for a total of maybe six sessions.
Interesting background, Jackie. This is why we love our Site, btw - we can think someone's Off Topic persona is a total douche (or possibly a turd sandwich) but still find interesting ideas in the RPG section, and still get to enjoy (or loathe) either one without the Mods bringing down the smack. Bravo.
Riffing off the Emperor Norton idea...
California and the Western Territories were built on the idea of rampant Capitalistic pursuit of wealth.
We also know that said wealth was a)limited, and b) sought after by the Government Back East.
Once it became clear to those on the West Coast that the gold and other wealth was theirs and their alone - and the Bluecoats were the only thing standing between them and Independence...
Well, do the math. A bit less tolerance of the interference from Back East and...
Civil War I - Circa 1850?
Slavery plays second fiddle to the hard currency potential of the Western Territories, and the fact that the "East" can't project power that far...
Where do England and France fall on this spectrum? Is this the moment that Spain has been waiting for after a century of waining influence?
Quote from: Werekoala;242631California and the Western Territories were built on the idea of rampant Capitalistic pursuit of wealth.
We also know that said wealth was a)limited, and b) sought after by the Government Back East.
Once it became clear to those on the West Coast that the gold and other wealth was theirs and their alone - and the Bluecoats were the only thing standing between them and Independence...
Well, do the math. A bit less tolerance of the interference from Back East and...
That could be very interesting.
Ultimate success would hinge on the Rocky Mountain states -- without meaningful air support, the Union armies would be bogged down in the Rockies forever...
if they sided with the West coast. As goes Colorado, so goes the nation...
The West coast would find it hard to raise a meaningful army. They would have to be extremely open to accepting blacks, indigenous peoples, and the Chinese, which could have long-standing social implications.
It wouldn't even necessarily require less tolerance from the East. A charismatic leader with sufficient financial backing could have theoretically lead a West coast secession movement, capitalizing on the resources of the union being tied up in the conflict with the confederacy. While probably supported by the neuvo riche elite of the West coast, the movements popular face could present itself as not succession but a "withdrawal" from the chaos on the other coast.
Did you know that Thomas Jefferson, after reviewing the findings of Lewis and Clark, proposed that at some point in the future America would have to split into separate nations (the landmass being too large for one federal government), and proposed the name "Pacifica" for what is now the Pacific Northwest?
I definitely think there is some potential in this idea.