Im working on a sci-fi setting with a bit or retro-tech (think 80s sci fi movies) and am theorizing an alternative history where the electronic revolution we enjoy today was stymied in the 80s for several reasons. The result is a future, space faring society, with no cellular networks, no internet, no micro-computers and the like but massive mainframes and DOS bound work stations, heavy and clunky mechanical based, rather than electronic, construction elements etc. Im not talking Steam Punk here, just a culture stuck in the "Aliens" movies for a frame or reference. To give credit where its due Im using the excellent Cepheus Engine/Traveller setting "Hostile" by Zozer games. (Good stuff there, you should check it out.)
What Im laboring with a bit is a contrived logic as to WHY technology took off in this new direction. I have a working list of historic events that explain the fall of solid state dominance but I dont have a working replacement. Vacuum tubes? Really?
Im not a tech-junky but Im betting some of you are. What kind of alternative, techno-babble laced, technology could replace the diode and the transistor in the construction of electronic equipment? What are the computers, control mechanisms, monitoring equipment, hell... radios, vehicles, and generally anything you can think of, built of if its not solid state, printed circuitry etc.?
Help?
Just throwing this out there. Some techno rambling version of Vacuum Tube application would probably work. Something large, heavy, power hungry but maybe a bit further on the developmental scale than the good old Triode. I was reading about NASA playing around with something called a vacuum channel transistor that looks like a possibility. Essentially it performs like an old vacuum tube but doesnt generate the heat and actually performs faster than a comparable solid state transistor. Its bigger of course, which is what Im looking for. Hmmm
Thoughts?
Quote from: rgrove0172;1039817Im working on a sci-fi setting with a bit or retro-tech (think 80s sci fi movies) and am theorizing an alternative history where the electronic revolution we enjoy today was stymied in the 80s for several reasons. The result is a future, space faring society, with no cellular networks, no internet, no micro-computers and the like but massive mainframes and DOS bound work stations, heavy and clunky mechanical based, rather than electronic, construction elements etc. Im not talking Steam Punk here, just a culture stuck in the "Aliens" movies for a frame or reference. To give credit where its due Im using the excellent Cepheus Engine/Traveller setting "Hostile" by Zozer games. (Good stuff there, you should check it out.)
What Im laboring with a bit is a contrived logic as to WHY technology took off in this new direction. I have a working list of historic events that explain the fall of solid state dominance but I dont have a working replacement. Vacuum tubes? Really?
Im not a tech-junky but Im betting some of you are. What kind of alternative, techno-babble laced, technology could replace the diode and the transistor in the construction of electronic equipment? What are the computers, control mechanisms, monitoring equipment, hell... radios, vehicles, and generally anything you can think of, built of if its not solid state, printed circuitry etc.?
Help?
A real man would use Babbage engines and spark-gap transmitters. (And don't forget the Battle of the Currents, either.)
Reread the original Foundation Trilogy for inspiration. :)
There is no reason Moore's Law can't reach major deceleration. Right now computers double in power every 3 years. What if Moore's law was based on 30 year cycles? Or 300 year cycles? AKA, what if we are currently reaching hard(ish) limits on computing power and must move forward with current tech? Thus, we would need the giant computers of Traveller to make space travel possible.
I had a Traveller GM who ruled "jump space fucks electronics", aka the computers needed major shielding to exist in any functional manner after a jump. Thus, you could have badass tech on planets, but then everything goes kinda retro in space.
Also...I find most players are cool with Traveller's tech wobbles.
You do realize that 'solid state electronics' has been around since the 80's, right? When Nintendo came out with the game cartridge for it's new console. All the SSD and USB keys are refinements on that technology. One thing you need to realize is that once humanity creates something, we try to make it more efficient and compact. So if you're sticking to vacuum tubes and the like, the technology will still shrink, no longer will their be house sized calculators, they'll still be palm sized. Or as close to it as physically possible. Because the point is to make as convenient as possible, and room sized rigs just are not.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1039827A real man would use Babbage engines and spark-gap transmitters. (And don't forget the Battle of the Currents, either.)
:D :D
Star Frontiers is a bit like that. Some of the tech like computers is fairly bulky, in part because of the immense calculations needed to safely use the jump process.
And on an interesting note. Theres an old SF short story where explorers encounter a derelict in space that uses solid state tech. Their vaccuum tube elements are all exposed to space with no need for covers.
Albedo is another odd one where alot of the tech is 80s-90s era NATO level tech just with better power plants not reliant on fossil fuels. The tech there is a mix of some bulky tech and some light. Just about all the military tech is 80s-90s NATO level with advanced VTOLs tossed in. No laser guns.
As for why stick to a certain type of tech? One reason might be some peculiarity of space travel. Solid state is immune to for example some type of electromagnetic radiation or EM bursts from solar flares. But requires some rarer elements in the components for this to work.
Note that this causes its own problems. Bigger computers mean you are wasting more fuel getting those things into orbit or moving them around. It also means that unless they are well protected, which is about impossible in space, then one stray meteorite could wreak havok. Or one crewman gone crazy and armed with a wrench. Though depending on expertise and parts on hand, repairing it could be just as easy depending on the elements.
There is a ton of give and take with the differing techs. One of the reasons tech got smaller was the need to reduce weight for things like aeroplanes and rockets.
What you can do is something like Clash did, you suppose ordinary tech development up to point X in time, and then warp drive (or whatever you call it) is invented, and it's relatively simple and easy to build. Other tech doesn't develop much because people are too busy jumping into makeshift spaceships and zooming off to other worlds.
Depending how you limit or don't limit the warp drive, this could get ridiculous. What if you don't even have to leave the planet to enter warp, and can "land" with pinpoint accuracy? Someone could go spacefaring in their RV, or their nuclear submarine. Or maybe you need a certain low atmospheric density or altitude, then something like a suborbital spaceship or even a high-flying jet liner is plenty.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1039881One thing you need to realize is that once humanity creates something, we try to make it more efficient and compact.
This statement is very nearly completely untrue. The only Industry, that is trying to make their technology more efficient and compact is the electronics Industry, and even with that, some sectors have become corrupt, and are really only interested in designing their techmology to exploit their users... Apple and Sony, I'm looking at you! I see you!
Reference:The Epic Mistake about manufacturing that is costing America Millions of Jobshttps://qz.com/1269172/the-epic-mistake-about-manufacturing-thats-cost-americans-millions-of-jobs/
Cars are going smaller, use less fuel, more efficient. Computers have gotten smaller, and use less electricity, more efficient. Aircraft engines use less fuel now, more efficient. Humanity refines, for good or ill, we refine a technology to a size that we are comfortable with.
Quote from: rgrove0172;1039817Im working on a sci-fi setting with a bit or retro-tech (think 80s sci fi movies) and am theorizing an alternative history where the electronic revolution we enjoy today was stymied in the 80s for several reasons... radios, vehicles, and generally anything you can think of, built of if its not solid state, printed circuitry etc.?
Help?
I've been thinking about this too. How about
analogue computers? AFAICT, analogue computing became a dead end, when digital computers overtook the analogue ability to do things faster.
But let's see:
Analogues would be bulkier, because they depend on moving parts instead of micro-transistors.
Does every computer in effect have its own operating system, requiring every program to be written (or at least tweaked) for that particular machine? (Hence the expense)
Would it be even possible to write a virus for analogue computers?
Most of what I've seen done before is based upon normal computer tech getting too advanced until a virus/AI develops that causes a massive disaster. Then new applications of archaic tech is put back into use. Dune did this, I think that TNE did it with Virus, and so too did the 2000s BSG series to some extent.
You could simply do what every other two-bit, genre mixing setting does and say "it's magic!" Then you have the option to fuck up your sci-fi setting some more by adding elves or some other ill fitting fey crap.
Can't you just say, 'the physics/chemistry of this universe are slightly different, such that these particular advances simply don't work?' I mean, sure a hypothetical chem major player might fume about how one can create a universe where glass exists but silicon chips can't keep getting more data-dense or something along those lines, but for the rest of your group, wouldn't that work?
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1039956I've been thinking about this too. How about analogue computers? AFAICT, analogue computing became a dead end, when digital computers overtook the analogue ability to do things faster.
Also known as Babbage Engines, as per chirine ba kal's post above. A lot of Ken MacLeod's books use nano-tech "hard coded" mechanical computers, to prevent the post-singularity AIs from corrupting the programming.
In Traveller, the ships are like 40 years old or something. That's why they don't use modern electronics, we're lucky if our mobile phones last 40 months.
How'd you like to be six weeks out in the void and your system crashes? "Updating operating system, please do not turn off... 1%..."
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040065Can't you just say, 'the physics/chemistry of this universe are slightly different, such that these particular advances simply don't work?' I mean, sure a hypothetical chem major player might fume about how one can create a universe where glass exists but silicon chips can't keep getting more data-dense or something along those lines, but for the rest of your group, wouldn't that work?
That what it would have to be since transistors were never a theoretical issue. The general idea was understood during the first decades of electronics. The problem was making them them reliably, small enough and affordably. In short a engineering problem. You could just postulate that space travel began earlier. That way you have decades instead a few years with older style electronics. Another path is that solid state is developed as our own timeline but instead of general purpose computers everything is purpose built with closed architectures aka nintendos, xboxes, and PSxs. A tradition of wide open boxes never takes hold and everything is tightly controlled. That would slow down software/interface development which would produce a retro feel for decades.
That is a good one and would slow down advancement quite a bit depending on how long that lasted.
Another one on a similar track is that the tech is black-boxed much like the old Furby system was to prevent reverse engineering. All that tech is in just one propriatory hand rather than here there and everywhere.
Which though doesnt addredd Groves original setup. I still think the main hurdle will be weight issues in getting massive computers into space and the give-take of their fragility vs resistance to certain types of damages. Theres going to be a push to get those nav computers smaller.
It is similar to the advancements needed to get a viable space suit that could withstand micrometeor impacts. The suits actually got bulkier as we have layered more and more protection into the suits after realizing the hazards. And while bulkier, they are alot more protective.
Quote from: estar;1040137That what it would have to be since transistors were never a theoretical issue. The general idea was understood during the first decades of electronics. The problem was making them them reliably, small enough and affordably. In short a engineering problem. You could just postulate that space travel began earlier. That way you have decades instead a few years with older style electronics. Another path is that solid state is developed as our own timeline but instead of general purpose computers everything is purpose built with closed architectures aka nintendos, xboxes, and PSxs. A tradition of wide open boxes never takes hold and everything is tightly controlled. That would slow down software/interface development which would produce a retro feel for decades.
Quote from: Omega;1040175That is a good one and would slow down advancement quite a bit depending on how long that lasted.
Unless I am misreading you two, what you are looking at is a failure of that society to produce a possible technology (because space travel happened first in the discovery process, or the like). I am suggesting changing the rules of the universe such that the solid state electronics
aren't feasible (in a way that is as reliable, durable, cost-effective, or whatever else makes them preferable to the vacuum tubes and the like).
Thing is, we live in a pretty convenient for computers universe (such that the computers are the least hand-wavy part of most space-based sci fi). Metal is conveniently ductile and malleable, conducts well and we've found many that work well either in vacuum or in our atmosphere (or both). Later, we've found out that flexible fiber-optic cable is both plausible and can transmit huge amounts of data. Silicon (or gallium arsenide) make really good microprocessor chips. Things line up really well for making more and better, faster, etc. computers. Why not change one of those things to... just not?
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040191Unless I am misreading you two, what you are looking at is a failure of that society to produce a possible technology (because space travel happened first in the discovery process, or the like). I am suggesting changing the rules of the universe such that the solid state electronics aren't feasible (in a way that is as reliable, durable, cost-effective, or whatever else makes them preferable to the vacuum tubes and the like).
One could always have Alien Space Bats rewrite the rules, the challenge is coming in up with something that is plausible without ASBs.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040191Thing is, we live in a pretty convenient for computers universe (such that the computers are the least hand-wavy part of most space-based sci fi). Metal is conveniently ductile and malleable, conducts well and we've found many that work well either in vacuum or in our atmosphere (or both). Later, we've found out that flexible fiber-optic cable is both plausible and can transmit huge amounts of data. Silicon (or gallium arsenide) make really good microprocessor chips. Things line up really well for making more and better, faster, etc. computers. Why not change one of those things to... just not?
The problem with plausibility is that despite the prevalence of silicon it just the best of many alternative for semi conductive materials. That the theoretical underpinnings were developed along with everything else with the invention of electronics in the first place. And trying to make any type of hard science fiction over changes to physical laws is hard without every things devolving into a Stirling style Dies the Fire situation where ALL electronics are not possible.
At some point one is better off going the Star Trek/Star War route and make it a non realistic science fiction setting. Just create a an internal logic to keep the science fiction feel aka Star Trek.
Or knock the advance of space technology and material technology out of sync with each other so the amount of time for vacuum tubes being used is prolonged.
Quote from: estar;1040205The problem with plausibility is that despite the prevalence of silicon it just the best of many alternative for semi conductive materials. That the theoretical underpinnings were developed along with everything else with the invention of electronics in the first place. And trying to make any type of hard science fiction over changes to physical laws is hard without every things devolving into a Stirling style Dies the Fire situation where ALL electronics are not possible.
At some point one is better off going the Star Trek/Star War route and make it a non realistic science fiction setting. Just create a an internal logic to keep the science fiction feel aka Star Trek.
Or knock the advance of space technology and material technology out of sync with each other so the amount of time for vacuum tubes being used is prolonged.
I feel like there should be a middle ground. I remember reading things like Isaac Asimov's Foundation, and noting the force fields and personal fusion packs and FTL as violations of hard science, but not the futuristic room-sized computers and so on. I feel that there
should (always a dicey word to throw in there, I know) be a middle ground where 'it's hard sci, except computers just don't work as well' that doesn't rely on a society which somehow didn't figure out superconductors, but did figure out ... some other things we're still working on.
On some level, it is a doylist issue--computers solve too many problems that we still want in our fiction (/genre RPGs), so we want to nerf those, while still being able to have the rest of the sci fi 'realistic' (because... I don't know, we want to ).
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1039916Cars are going smaller, use less fuel, more efficient. Computers have gotten smaller, and use less electricity, more efficient. Aircraft engines use less fuel now, more efficient. Humanity refines, for good or ill, we refine a technology to a size that we are comfortable with.
From a European perspective. On the other hand, most cars in the US market look to me like they got steadily injected with more and more yeast after a brief slimming in the 80's. Selling points include seats that tower high over shorter cars, perceived safety by driving a very large object, interiors that are like mobile living rooms with padded chairs and televisions in them, etc. But yes, those are still about perceived "comfort" - just what that means can be different and lead to some things staying large or getting larger.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040065Can't you just say, 'the physics/chemistry of this universe are slightly different, such that these particular advances simply don't work?' I mean, sure a hypothetical chem major player might fume about how one can create a universe where glass exists but silicon chips can't keep getting more data-dense or something along those lines, but for the rest of your group, wouldn't that work?
Yes. I think (mb wrong) that you could have something that induces EM noise that can't be shielded out, so signals have to be stronger to have reliable values - more power and heat probably means they can't be too small and delicate.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040210I feel like there should be a middle ground. I remember reading things like Isaac Asimov's Foundation, and noting the force fields and personal fusion packs and FTL as violations of hard science, but not the futuristic room-sized computers and so on. I feel that there should (always a dicey word to throw in there, I know) be a middle ground where 'it's hard sci, except computers just don't work as well' that doesn't rely on a society which somehow didn't figure out superconductors, but did figure out ... some other things we're still working on.
Star Trek is a middle ground, it for the most part serious science fiction exploring issues despite based in part on "rubbery" science. Beyond a few handwaviums like dilthium crystals they don't go into depth with their technology.
As for Asimov's Foundation series it science fiction focused on the implication of technology that can effect the grand sweep of history. It actual technological basis is about as solid as Star Trek's technological foundation even by the standards of his times. But since it obviously not the focus it doesn't take away anything from the books.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040210where 'it's hard sci, except computers just don't work as well'
<-- This is easier to make a plausible future out of. Computer are what they are due to sociological factors. The technology just establishes the playing field, how the game is played out is dependent on the personalities involved. It plausible some point of departure in the past half century caused the default form factor of computer to be a vastly less usable form. A world where every computing device is a closed box Nintendo style machine. Or each computer has one function and one function only jealously guarded by draconian IP laws.
While everything is driven by transistors, the overall feel would be very much what we expect from raygun and tubes style future.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040210On some level, it is a doylist issue--computers solve too many problems that we still want in our fiction (/genre RPGs), so we want to nerf those, while still being able to have the rest of the sci fi 'realistic' (because... I don't know, we want to ).
Computer are tools not magic. For example communications, if you read the Martian by Andy Weir, despite all the radio equipment left on site Mark Watney was unable to communicate with even a Martian satellite because a specific piece of radio equipment, a dish, was needed. In a tabletop roleplaying game comm devices are denoted by range because for the most that all you really need to know. But in the real world it more complex than just raw range. The ability to focus the radio power output is also important as well.
If one doesn't like a particular piece of technology being magical in operation then often studying the real world details will yield stuff that you can incorporate without turning it into a hard core simulation.
Note: The Ares III mission had backups but the backups are on the Mars Ascent Vehicle which was taken by the crew when they had to leave after Watney was hit in the dust storm.
Finally, doing the retro computing stuff is fine, it Star War style science opera in terms of technology and many enjoy that. Just say that how the world operates, don't get into the reasons why and run your campaign. Or go Star Trek, establish a few ground rules about how things works and everything follows from those premises.
Quote from: rgrove0172;1039817Im working on a sci-fi setting with a bit or retro-tech (think 80s sci fi movies) and am theorizing an alternative history where the electronic revolution we enjoy today was stymied in the 80s for several reasons. The result is a future, space faring society, with no cellular networks, no internet, no micro-computers and the like but massive mainframes and DOS bound work stations, heavy and clunky mechanical based, rather than electronic, construction elements etc.
So... basically Classic Traveller?
One way to do it is the discovery of a hyperspace drive that is a dimension where distances are shorter, but tech past a certain point just does not work or actually combusts or explodes. To travel the stars your ships need those older style techs. Or TORG style and your tech is actually transformed into lower era tech if it violates the axioms.
Or you could do it TORG style. The very axioms of the universe just do not allow tech past a certain era to work. Possibly to the point that no one CAN think of those higher techs even, keeping the world in a perpetual 1920s level with some weird science thrown in to allow space travel. Things that arent possible in the normal universe. Have a look at the Nile Empire book foe that. Taken to its extreme is the Living Land where anything past the stone age fails and processed materials like clothes start to decay rapidly.
So you can just tell the players that in this setting the universal axioms do not allow tech past a certain era. Thats all you really need and that is how TORG did it.