I was reading an article on Holmes D&D just now, and he brought up something I'd totally forgotten about - Alignment Languages. There was some discussion about the nature of alignments on these boards recently, but this is an unusual concept I was never able to wrap my head around. Where did these come from, was there any rational given for them? Where they originally meant as a shorthand for languages in general - hobbits speak the "good tongue", orcs communicate in the "black speech" etc? Because by the time I encountered them, they existed simultaneously with all the demihuman language proficiencies.
They existed in BECMI. Which was my entry point into D&D. They also seemed to be a part of AD&D 1st Edition.
I have never seen a copy of 1st Edition D&D. So I have utterly no idea if Alignment Languages went back that far.
They go back to OD&D, which also allowed you to learn languages. Yeah, learning all three alignment languages was very popular.
I remember them well from 0D&D. They were popular as "secret" languages, except that as Gronan says learning all three made them not so secret.
I never heard a rationale for why they existed. They just did.
I heard on a podcast that Gygax thought of alignment languages as something like Latin in mediaeval Europe. A 'secret language' that people would use to speak to each other in private. Not sure where the podcasters sourced that so take it with a grain of salt, although it seems like a reasonable explanation. The application of alignment language in AD&D though is uneven and perhaps even incoherent.
Alignment languages were pretty cool.
I also had the impression that Alignment Languages were exclusive. That they couldn't and shouldn't be taught to people outside of that Alignment
Just for the sake of clarity- we're just talking about law, chaos and neutrality for alignment languages, right? We're not going deep into batshit forest with chaotic neutral, lawful neutral, neutral neutral....
Quote from: RunningLaser;951892Just for the sake of clarity- we're just talking about law, chaos and neutrality for alignment languages, right? We're not going deep into batshit forest with chaotic neutral, lawful neutral, neutral neutral....
I certainly hope not.
Thieve's Cant, Druid speech.... It seems like old school D&D had lots of exclusive languages.
The interesting question: -could- the alignment languages be taught to outsiders? Whether or not they should, or that you could find a teach or not, isn't what I'm talking about. I mean "were there languages in this magical world that were protected from outsiders learning them?" My knee jerk thought is "that's dumb. They're languages and anyone with the right access and time and skill could learn them, regardless."
But we're also talking about a world with magical elves, so what is and isn't possible should be up for discussion.
I figure you have two options:
1) They're perfectly mundane languages and nothing else. They're a lazy, fallible shorthand for casting a weak version of Detect X that really kind of sucks. Best case use: those orcs don't know what you're saying, and are too dumb to realize you're plotting something in front of them.
2) They -are- magically protected languages. Why the heck wouldn't everyone speak in their alignment tongue all the time? It's an easy, cheap Detect X spell that let's you know the Good from the Bad from the stinking Neutrals. It feels goofy and silly sure, but... magic elves. EDIT: Also, it lets you communicate with anyone else "on your team", without having to bother learning racial languages.
I dunno'. I guess I find the whole concept kind of dumb. I mean, sure you have a precedent with "the Dark Tongue", but that always seems like more of a spell-casting thing than its own language for day-to-day use. "I've been working with the grocer for some time now. He says my Dark Tongue is getting better, but still a bit accented. I just can't seem to trill my T's the right way."
They're inherent to being part of an alignment so I don't think you could.
Or maybe just the act of learning it counts as betrayal to your current alignment, and so you'd switch over to that other alignment. Who knows.
But it was basically a "church language" like latin.
Like everything else D&D, what edition are you talking about? Originally it was just three, and was meant to be more of a religious thing, roughly analogous to Christianity=Latin, Judaism=Hebrew, Islam=Arabic, Hinduism=Sanskrit, etc. Just like these languages, anyone could learn them.
In AD&D with the expansion of alignment and the Planar Wheel, it got weird, because now there were a lot more of them, and alignment was more defined and more tied to personality and psychology. That's where a lot of people thought the wheels came off the wagon, because now that there were many different gods and religions per alignment, it was no longer analogous to Latin, it was a secret language known only to those of that alignment, and reflecting of your personality and spiritual identity. As such, alignment language was this weird thing of body language, concepts, etc. something really that didn't exist in our world. At that point, most people flushed it because it made no sense for mortals, but may have kept it for planar creatures.
Quote from: DavetheLost;951815I remember them well from 0D&D. They were popular as "secret" languages, except that as Gronan says learning all three made them not so secret.
I never heard a rationale for why they existed. They just did.
One or two editions explained alignment languages as more like secret signs, handshakes, symbols and phrases. And combinations thereof. Anoter one was that alignment languages were akin to thieves cant and carny speak for example. Odd terms and codewords that an outsider wont know.
Alignment languages we tended to leave alone. We knew they were there. But since it was so vague we just shrugged and assumed it was being used now and then and just didnt matter since depending on the edition anyone could apparently learn them if they wanted. Or get enough to cause short lived deception.
And pretty much alot of what Krug above notes too.
We used them at first but eventually dropped them too.
In 1e the waters got particularly muddy because the DMG says that if you change alignment you lose the ability to use the old alignment language and are limited in the new alignment language.
I can't stand Alignment Languages, certainly not the way they were used in D&D.
More or less what Pundit said, and I've never been in a group that used them, because most people agreed;).
For me to use alignment languages, they'd have to be something like Latin (or rather, Aramaic - you know, the language Jesus actually spoke:D), Hebrew, Arabic, Sanscrit, The Secret Language of the Temple of Ksarul, Old Realm, and such others. They would be possible to learn, but rare, because they'd only be studied by learned priests, rich men and women, and adventurers, even if the local languages were like Vulgar Latin (Sermo Vulgaris), a contemporary, bastardized form of them that's no longer mutually intelligible.
Alignment tongues make sense if you think of them (as they are, actually) as language of different philosophies.
Say you have two libertarians talking to each other. They will understand various points and references to libertarian philosophy. On the other hand, if one tried to talk to an intersectional feminist, then they would be mutually unintelligible.
Are these things impossible to learn? No, but on the same time, if you aren't a true believer, you would probably not be that interested and not remember fine points, or lose your temper. There's a science-fiction novel by F. Paul Wilson (a libertarian) where the hero is being chased by statists who are rioting and is able to seek shelter (of sorts) from fellow libertarians by speaking to them with a few bits of shared philosophy. That to me is a pretty good depiction of an alignment tongue.
But less abstractly, bear in mind in the D&D universe (whichever one except Dark Sun), gods and devils and what not are literally real and are constantly talking to and directing their minions. None of this hands off stuff like in the real world which has still managed to create quite a lot of fanatics. We're talking real, actual gods acting like Clash of the Titans turned to to 11. Is it really strange that the differing factions would have their own codes to talk to their own followers and allies?
Quote from: JeremyR;952555Alignment tongues make sense if you think of them (as they are, actually) as language of different philosophies.
Say you have two libertarians talking to each other. They will understand various points and references to libertarian philosophy. On the other hand, if one tried to talk to an intersectional feminist, then they would be mutually unintelligible.
Except neither of those things is a usable language unto itself. They're just ways of talking about things within another language. A German-speaking libertarian and a Chinese-speaking libertarian will still be mutually unintelligible.
I've seen several explanations for these by Gary over on the Dragonsfoot forums, in his Q&A threads (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=50&sid=af13ca8a39e9ad1061ce65a7dd1d04fe).
I get the intent. Your alignment had spiritual ramifications that were larger than just a mental knowledge base about words, and part of it was expressing concepts that resonated with the larger tenents of that alignment. But I don't think Alignments were ever made to really line up with RL religions that shared the same alignment, or the other complexities that came with it. It must have been a concept he liked though, as it sat there in multiple editions for quite some time. Ultimately, it's a concept that didn't resonate with a lot of gamers, and could have been a common point of ridicule or confusion that lead to the idea being dropped.
I tried using them in play a few times, but could never make them work in a way the group found sensible.
Just search this forum. I already talked at length on this subject on at least two topics.
We've went in depth into signs, symbols, gestures, etc. We've went into depth of shibboleths, dialect, shared parent language, patois, pidgin, etc. We've covered how "language" as vernacular has to do heavier lifting beyond "language" as jargon. I even gave an example in practice through Spanish/Muslim & French/Christian association.
Go search, the topics beforehand were pretty thorough and well done on this topic.
Two things I've always disliked about the default universe of D&D: nearly all humanoids have infravision; alignment languages (along with the fact that demi-humans often know a billion languages).
The other advantage to alignment languages is that you don't have to decide of kobolds speak goblin or draconic, or shit like that.
Like other things in OD&D it may not make "sense" but it enhances a certain style of play.
Quote from: JeremyR;952555Alignment tongues make sense if you think of them (as they are, actually) as language of different philosophies.
Say you have two libertarians talking to each other. They will understand various points and references to libertarian philosophy. On the other hand, if one tried to talk to an intersectional feminist, then they would be mutually unintelligible.
And if they were presented in that way, as a philosophical lingo the way that Thieves' Cant is a professional lingo, then it would make sense. But that's not how they're presented.
Anyways, two people from different parts of the world that both believe in "law" and "good" will not speak the same talking points. If D&D made 'religious languages" or "allegiance languages" or something like that, it would be fine.