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Okay lately Ive been trying to work on my trpg and I have been struggling to come up with more alchemy mixes and abelitys for my alchemist class.

I am trying to blend in A reasonable amount of real alchemy lore and idea in to the ability set while adding some more main stream and just cool ideas.

Would any one know of some other games or books on the subject to look over to help inspire me ?
Also if you are wondering on the style of this class its influenced by the atelier games and that would likely be the closest published work.

I'm not sure about games or modern fictional sources, but if you want actual source material, Adam McLean's website is a great resource:

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/bookshop/study_course.html

I haven't read it, but this generally considered a solid survey text by serious modern practitioners:   https://www.amazon.com/Alchemists-Handbook-Practical-Laboratory-Alchemy/dp/0877286558/ref=pd_bxgy_14_3/132-9887764-5348119?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0877286558&pd_rd_r=8c183d8c-4f1f-11e9-879c-b96d07743bc0&pd_rd_w=g7Wk5&pd_rd_wg=E21qj&pf_rd_p=a2006322-0bc0-4db9-a08e-d168c18ce6f0&pf_rd_r=HKR6HWWXA6BHWCQM12AJ&psc=1&refRID=HKR6HWWXA6BHWCQM12AJ

This is probably broader in scope, but might be a little "new agey", considering the publisher: https://www.amazon.com/Path-Alchemy-Energetic-Pathways-Enlightenment/dp/0738709034/ref=sr_1_15?keywords=plant+alchemy&qid=1553533243&s=gateway&sr=8-15

Quote from: kosmos1214;1080491I am trying to blend in A reasonable amount of real alchemy lore and idea in to the ability set while adding some more main stream and just cool ideas.

Would any one know of some other games or books on the subject to look over to help inspire me ?
Also if you are wondering on the style of this class its influenced by the atelier games and that would likely be the closest published work.

The problem I see is that real alchemy is very different than fantasy alchemy. It's not about making potions or useful powders. It's mainly about spiritual enlightenment. Chivalry & Sorcery has some semi-authentic material for its alchemists, but mostly it is about amassing magical power for other uses - which sort of works if one says that spiritual enlightenment gives one insight to help with other magic. But it depends on what the class is supposed to be like.

I'm not familiar with atelier games or their alchemist class - can you give a brief summary?

As has been mentioned, alchemy in RPGs has a different focus to alchemy in the real world.

RPG Alchemists are all about making potions of varying kinds and the rules for those tend to be detailed. Quite often, though, the descriptions of the potions are more detailed than the rules for making them.

Real World Alchemists were all about Transformation, whether of mundane substances into other mundane substances or the transformation of the soul. Some Alchemists believed that Adam was a hermaphrodite and that making Eve from his rib was actually the separation of the hermaphrodite form into man and woman, so they try and recreate the original form. Some believed in purifying the soul, usually be taking various concoctions that they had created.

The trick, in a RPG, is to combine the two, so you have cool potions and rules for making them, but also have a magical/mystical side to them.

Another element worth considering is that real world alchemy falls under the heading of what the Catholic Church labeled "natural magic" and wasn't condemned the way calling on spirits was (they did have several declarations against those who make fraudulent claims about what they could achieve through alchemy; but that's condemning fraud, not alchemy).

Natural magic was essentially the precursor of physics, chemistry, biology and medicine. Instead of calling on spirits to alter reality, it was concerned with discovering the hidden properties and interactions of the things that God created. They didn't have the scientific method yet so there was a lot of guesswork and bias in evaluating results so it could be rather hit or miss.

My suggestion in that vein is to treat alchemy not as magic but "sufficiently advanced science." Consider what modern medicine/pharmacology, chemistry and an understanding of physics can accomplish today compared to what could be done in the medieval world and tell me they wouldn't call it a kind of magic.

Consider what an understanding of germ theory alone would mean for a "healer's" rate of success. The study of methods that could transform lead to gold also advanced the understanding metallurgy as well... imagine the quality of steel that a modern day metallurgist could achieve and what it would look like in the medieval world (particularly the early medieval period). Just having the formula for black powder (and/or more energetic explosives) and the understanding in how to set/position and set it off would probably look like black magic to someone in Gaul c. AD 600. Heck, throw in the chemistry that goes into modern day fireworks too while you're at it.

That's what I'd look at for inspiration for an alchemist. Their main limitation would be the cost of materials to prepare their "spells" or craft their "magic items" rather than a D&D caster's spell slots.

Another element worth considering is that real world alchemy falls under the heading of what the Catholic Church labeled "natural magic" and wasn't condemned the way calling on spirits was (they did have several declarations against those who make fraudulent claims about what they could achieve through alchemy; but that's condemning fraud, not alchemy).

Natural magic was essentially the precursor of physics, chemistry, biology and medicine. Instead of calling on spirits to alter reality, it was concerned with discovering the hidden properties and interactions of the things that God created. They didn't have the scientific method yet so there was a lot of guesswork and bias in evaluating results so it could be rather hit or miss.

My suggestion in that vein is to treat alchemy not as magic but "sufficiently advanced science." Consider what modern medicine/pharmacology, chemistry and an understanding of physics can accomplish today compared to what could be done in the medieval world and tell me they wouldn't call it a kind of magic.

Consider what an understanding of germ theory alone would mean for a "healer's" rate of success. The study of methods that could transform lead to gold also advanced the understanding metallurgy as well... imagine the quality of steel that a modern day metallurgist could achieve and what it would look like in the medieval world (particularly the early medieval period). Just having the formula for black powder (and/or more energetic explosives) and the understanding in how to set/position and set it off would probably look like black magic to someone in Gaul c. AD 600. Heck, throw in the chemistry that goes into modern day fireworks too while you're at it.

That's what I'd look at for inspiration for an alchemist. Their main limitation would be the cost of materials to prepare their "spells" or craft their "magic items" rather than a D&D caster's spell slots.

Well, the ONLY RPG I know of that actually has alchemy based on the true medieval/renaissance rituals/recipes for supposed alchemical creations is Lion & Dragon.

Quote from: Brendan;1080752I'm not sure about games or modern fictional sources, but if you want actual source material, Adam McLean's website is a great resource:

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/bookshop/study_course.html

I haven't read it, but this generally considered a solid survey text by serious modern practitioners:   https://www.amazon.com/Alchemists-Handbook-Practical-Laboratory-Alchemy/dp/0877286558/ref=pd_bxgy_14_3/132-9887764-5348119?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0877286558&pd_rd_r=8c183d8c-4f1f-11e9-879c-b96d07743bc0&pd_rd_w=g7Wk5&pd_rd_wg=E21qj&pf_rd_p=a2006322-0bc0-4db9-a08e-d168c18ce6f0&pf_rd_r=HKR6HWWXA6BHWCQM12AJ&psc=1&refRID=HKR6HWWXA6BHWCQM12AJ

This is probably broader in scope, but might be a little "new agey", considering the publisher: https://www.amazon.com/Path-Alchemy-Energetic-Pathways-Enlightenment/dp/0738709034/ref=sr_1_15?keywords=plant+alchemy&qid=1553533243&s=gateway&sr=8-15

To be honest I am not supper familier with alchemy in popular fiction my self a few bits form some things.
1 a game where it was nothing but the potian system
2 full metal alchemist not bad in and of it self or a particularly bad depiction of alchemy (though not acurate) but very focused on trasmutation.
A few others that escape me.

Quote from: Chris24601;1081560Another element worth considering is that real world alchemy falls under the heading of what the Catholic Church labeled "natural magic" and wasn't condemned the way calling on spirits was (they did have several declarations against those who make fraudulent claims about what they could achieve through alchemy; but that's condemning fraud, not alchemy).

Natural magic was essentially the precursor of physics, chemistry, biology and medicine. Instead of calling on spirits to alter reality, it was concerned with discovering the hidden properties and interactions of the things that God created. They didn't have the scientific method yet so there was a lot of guesswork and bias in evaluating results so it could be rather hit or miss.

My suggestion in that vein is to treat alchemy not as magic but "sufficiently advanced science." Consider what modern medicine/pharmacology, chemistry and an understanding of physics can accomplish today compared to what could be done in the medieval world and tell me they wouldn't call it a kind of magic.

Consider what an understanding of germ theory alone would mean for a "healer's" rate of success. The study of methods that could transform lead to gold also advanced the understanding metallurgy as well... imagine the quality of steel that a modern day metallurgist could achieve and what it would look like in the medieval world (particularly the early medieval period). Just having the formula for black powder (and/or more energetic explosives) and the understanding in how to set/position and set it off would probably look like black magic to someone in Gaul c. AD 600. Heck, throw in the chemistry that goes into modern day fireworks too while you're at it.

That's what I'd look at for inspiration for an alchemist. Their main limitation would be the cost of materials to prepare their "spells" or craft their "magic items" rather than a D&D caster's spell slots.

You preempted nearly my entire reply to jkim and solakis. One this I do need to address is that academical items are modeled as spells for simplicity and that crafting and using them both cost mana as a means to curb stock piling players have a tendency toward that with out rewarding it to much. A 2nd point is that because all abelitys save class special abelitys are learned they a prerequisite system alchemy skills off shoot from magic as a way to keep then number of prerequisites down I had to cut it back because it was just an odd tree on its own.
You also correctly guessed the style and ideas I am going for here are some examples of what I had before I started this thread.
1 A small host of elemental pills that explode in there respective element (sort of a "zap ability if you will").
2 A pencil that repairs a limited amount of durability to damaged items when used to fill cracks and voids in the damaged article.
3 A flask of liquid stone that hardens quickly on contact with the air.
4 A flask of liquid that almost instantly evaporates and then violently explodes.
5 a flask of liqid that freezes to ice nearly instantly.(ever heard of super cooled water)
3 A flask of liquid rock that hardens quickly when exposed to air.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1081713Well, the ONLY RPG I know of that actually has alchemy based on the true medieval/renaissance rituals/recipes for supposed alchemical creations is Lion & Dragon.

Agreed my games going less for low fantasy historically accurate alchemy and more for high heroic fantasy alchemy  with historical tie and idea.
though I should buy a copy of lion and dragon it would likely make A good reference book and starting point for me to look at while I work on my game.

Quick 2nd thought would A book on chemical reactions be another good place to look? also do any of you know of any good ones?

Well, here's a short video discussing the most common reactions;

https://study.com/academy/lesson/common-chemical-reactions-and-energy-change.html
 (https://study.com/academy/lesson/common-chemical-reactions-and-energy-change.html)

Also, because it might be more up your ally in terms of fantasy... here's Minecraft Education Edition's info on "Compounds" (you can also craft actual elements in that version too).

Minecraft Compounds (https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/g00/Compound?i10c.ua=1&i10c.encReferrer=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&i10c.dv=13)

I just released an illustrated alchemy PDF for free on Drivethru that could inspire you. Its got about 30+ recipes, (with no copies or Major/Minor versions) with lots of drawings an a brief explanation on how Alchemy works. (Without making up technobabble) It works like a craft/Proffession, and not a class. Also, it was designed for one RPG and then transmoged for 5e. Hopefully you'll find it useful.

I made a post about it in the News/Adverts section Here (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40450-5e-Free-Alchemy-craft-on-DrivethruRPG-from-Island-Of-Bees).

Quote from: Chris24601;1084241Well, here's a short video discussing the most common reactions;

https://study.com/academy/lesson/common-chemical-reactions-and-energy-change.html
 (https://study.com/academy/lesson/common-chemical-reactions-and-energy-change.html)

Also, because it might be more up your ally in terms of fantasy... here's Minecraft Education Edition's info on "Compounds" (you can also craft actual elements in that version too).

Minecraft Compounds (https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/g00/Compound?i10c.ua=1&i10c.encReferrer=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&i10c.dv=13)

Yeah I heard about the minecraft thing and didn't think about it thank you.
Also am I right in thinking from your previous comment that you like me didn't care for the pathfinder alchemist? Personally I found the 5e alchemist arc type under the artificer arc type a shine better though more simplified then I personally care for.

Quote from: John Out West;1084242I just released an illustrated alchemy PDF for free on Drivethru that could inspire you. Its got about 30+ recipes, (with no copies or Major/Minor versions) with lots of drawings an a brief explanation on how Alchemy works. (Without making up technobabble) It works like a craft/Proffession, and not a class. Also, it was designed for one RPG and then transmoged for 5e. Hopefully you'll find it useful.

I made a post about it in the News/Adverts section Here (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40450-5e-Free-Alchemy-craft-on-DrivethruRPG-from-Island-Of-Bees).

Again thank you ill give it a look.

Quote from: kosmos1214;1084722Also am I right in thinking from your previous comment that you like me didn't care for the pathfinder alchemist? Personally I found the 5e alchemist arc type under the artificer arc type a shine better though more simplified then I personally care for.

I'll be honest, I've never even so much as opened the cover of a Pathfinder book so I didn't even know there WAS a Pathfinder alchemist and haven't touched 5e outside of a friend's PHB and Xanathar's Guide (and that only because they really wanted to run a game of 5e and needed players).

The only RPG I've really had much contact with in the last three years is the one I've been writing (its been complete enough to run an actual campaign with for about two years and the player's side has been mostly stable minus tweaking based on playtest feedback for about a year now).

As such, most of my suggestions have been based on actual alchemy to an extent; and one advantage there is that unlike, say, D&D's Evocation school (which was derived from wargame artillery rules as much as anything), Alchemy was actually a real medieval practice that fell within the approved areas of study for those affiliated with the Catholic Church.

One very important thing to remember about Alchemy in that regard is that no one practiced JUST alchemy. It was part of a larger field of natural magic (the progenitors of what today would be called the natural sciences) and the even larger field of general academic study that would have also included religious studies, philosophy and mathematics. Because of the expenses involved it was effectively limited in purview to the upper classes and clergy. A local folk healer might know of common remedies using locally available plants and materials, but that's roughly akin to having taken a First Aid course compared to the Alchemist's M.D.

Lion & Dragon actually has two different Alchemy skills: the first is 'puffery', which is the non-magical alchemy-as-medieval-chemistry skill. The other is the magical skill.

For a survey of historical alchemy, I've found Laurence Principe's The Secrets of Alchemy (University of Chicago Press, 2013) to be a nice introduction.

Quote from: Chris24601;1084728I'll be honest, I've never even so much as opened the cover of a Pathfinder book so I didn't even know there WAS a Pathfinder alchemist and haven't touched 5e outside of a friend's PHB and Xanathar's Guide (and that only because they really wanted to run a game of 5e and needed players).

The only RPG I've really had much contact with in the last three years is the one I've been writing (its been complete enough to run an actual campaign with for about two years and the player's side has been mostly stable minus tweaking based on playtest feedback for about a year now).

As such, most of my suggestions have been based on actual alchemy to an extent; and one advantage there is that unlike, say, D&D's Evocation school (which was derived from wargame artillery rules as much as anything), Alchemy was actually a real medieval practice that fell within the approved areas of study for those affiliated with the Catholic Church.

One very important thing to remember about Alchemy in that regard is that no one practiced JUST alchemy. It was part of a larger field of natural magic (the progenitors of what today would be called the natural sciences) and the even larger field of general academic study that would have also included religious studies, philosophy and mathematics. Because of the expenses involved it was effectively limited in purview to the upper classes and clergy. A local folk healer might know of common remedies using locally available plants and materials, but that's roughly akin to having taken a First Aid course compared to the Alchemist's M.D.

Let me start by saying sorry for not getting back here sooner last time I was on I ran out of time before I got this far.
The tldr of the pathfinder alchemist is a guy who tosses achemical potions that only he can use and loose power when they leave his position cuz reasons feels very hand waved.
The 5E alchemist Ive only seen the play test version from there website but its a path for the "artificer" class the other being a gunner class with a hand waved thunder gun.
The 5E alchemist path has a magic alchemy bag they can reach in to and pull out an alchemist fire an acid or a healing tonic (works once per long rest fairly strong).
And yes a very good idea I like to try and keep in mind is that Sir isaac newton was an alchemist and that he only published 2 books on what we would call physics compared to 12 or 14 on philosophy.
As to background and where one comes from this I consider complex because in a fantasy world some of these things may be more wide spread.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1085913Lion & Dragon actually has two different Alchemy skills: the first is 'puffery', which is the non-magical alchemy-as-medieval-chemistry skill. The other is the magical skill.

I'll end up digging threw both most likely and blending them a bit. Are there any resources that you think I should look at?

Quote from: Fritzef;1086033For a survey of historical alchemy, I've found Laurence Principe's The Secrets of Alchemy (University of Chicago Press, 2013) to be a nice introduction.

thank you.

I just picked up lion and dragon. As well as your alchemy supplement John I expect both will be interesting.