I suppose my run of good fortune wouldn't last forever. In the past year or so, all I've had was good reviews (even winning Diehard Gamefan's game of the year), so it was a matter of time before I got a bad one.
Too bad it's in a big publication like Knights of the Dinner Table. When I submitted the game to be reviewed, I kept it pretty basic because I didn't want to skew or influence the reviewer. I only told him what it was about, and that a really important aspect of it was the purpose: to get your rpg fix in when you didn't have space to lug around bags of dice or lots of books. It literally was a deck of cards, a pencil, and 3 dice that you could all fit in your pocket and play an rpg.
That's the only disagreement I had with the review because the reviewer then proceeded to say how bad it was by comparing it to full sized RPG books. Of course I don't have rules describing hundreds of scenarios, it's physically impossible to do that with the structure of the game.
But his biggest complaint (that he said was his biggest), was that on the monster cards, there wasn't a description on ecology (behavior, etc). Again, where exactly are you supposed to put it all and keep a text size that you can still read?
This two disagreements hit home with his sentence: "I don't care if there isn't enough space on the cards to do a better job, this is precisely why we have manuals!"
The reason that part bothered me is because I explicitly said that this is portable game where you don't have to carry around manuals. I don't mind the bad review so much as I mind the fact that he totally missed the point of the game.
Then of course I also took issue with him complaining about how sparse the rules were, and then proceeded to make complaints about things the rules explicitly spelled out. Like, "I haven't even the faintest idea how hard a difficulty 5 action might be", which the rules clearly stated, "In order to make a check, roll the d6, add any modifiers for abilities or skills, and get higher than the difficulty number." I even gave an example scenario.
Or, "There's so much more you can do with cards! You can shuffle them, pick them at random, arrange them on the table...etc...and yet Compact Heroes does nothing more than use them as a resource." When I devoted a few paragraphs explaining that you can do exactly what Mr. Desai just said.
There were other complaints, like the maps were too small to show the players where they were positioned at. Well, duh. The map cards were for the GM, not the players. It's not a mini game.
So yeah, if you hate the game, I have no problem because that's your prerogative. But if you're gonna make complaints, at least read the material given you first because most of them were flat out incorrect.
Oh well, I suppose this is par for the course for being a designer. Someone once told me, "It's best to have a really good review, or a really bad one. You don't ever want a mediocre one." So in that respect, I guess I'm still batting 100%.
I wouldn't worry about it. The reviewer obviously missed the whole point of the game.
Ah man, that happens, and I'm sure it hurts when it does.
Keep your head held high though. Apparently some people figured out what to do with Compact Heroes so you shouldn't beat yourself over it. Somebody's having fun with it somewhere. :)
I wouldn't worry about it. Yes it is a big publication, but it is still just one reviewer's opinion.
Contact them, and ask for the opportunity to respond, respectfully.
If it is any consolation I just read the review. They are supposed to review Horror Show or Servants of Gaius (i believe) and based on your review, I have a feeling ours might be in for an axe grinding as well. I could be wrong, but my gut is telling me its likely.
No one likes bad reviews but developing a thick skin will help in the long run. The trick is to know when to pay attention to the criticism and when to ignore it. Not all bad reviews are equal. A good bad review can reveal areas to improve on, a bad bad review just makes you second guess yourself.
I should have known I was in trouble when he compared it to a game that did it right (4e) ;)
Seeing as how I designed it around the AD&D model, as you can tell from how the maps were designed:
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/dungeonlevel1complete.jpg)
I guess this is a case of someone totally not the target demographic doing the review. I mean of course it has to be simple, an entire character sheet has to fit on one card:
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/charactersheetcardv2.jpg)
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;546276If it is any consolation I just read the review. They are supposed to review Horror Show or Servants of Gaius (i believe) and based on your review, I have a feeling ours might be in for an axe grinding as well. I could be wrong, but my gut is telling me its likely.
No one likes bad reviews but developing a thick skin will help in the long run. The trick is to know when to pay attention to the criticism and when to ignore it. Not all bad reviews are equal. A good bad review can reveal areas to improve on, a bad bad review just makes you second guess yourself.
True, and I'm not saying that all of his complaints weren't without merit. There were some legitimate things there I can take away. Just that some of them were objectively incorrect.
Oh well. Such is life. I'll just have to move on from here.
Sorry about it and all that, but the way the thread is going it's starting to look like self-promotion to me.
Which is fine, of course, but might belong in another sub-forum. Just sayin'
Quote from: Black Vulmea;546271Contact them, and ask for the opportunity to respond, respectfully.
Unless there are major factual errors in the review, I would be hesitant to do this. I have never really seen a review response improve things (best case scenario you clarify some rules, worst case you look like someone who can't handle a bad review (think kevin smith and twitter). I say if you really wantvsome insight contact the reviewer directly (for example if you are unclear on any of his criticisms). At least now you know what his disikes are and if you can submit things in future you think he is more likley to enjoy.
Keep in mind a review is just someone's opinion. He is entitled to his opinion, and when you send material for review you do so knowinng it could get slammed. If you simply dont like the reviewers style (maybe you can handle a bad review just fine, but this reviewer's approach bothers you for some reason) then just don't send more material to him.
That does suck, though. I've made mistakes in reviews - it's impossible not to sometimes...but I don't think I've ever completely missed the point of something, and I'm quick to make corrections when they come to my attention (though that's easier to do on a blog than in a magazine).
Quote from: Sacrosanct;546279True, and I'm not saying that all of his complaints weren't without merit. There were some legitimate things there I can take away. Just that some of them were objectively incorrect.
Oh well. Such is life. I'll just have to move on from here.
This happens. If the mistakes are big enough by all means contact the reviewer, because he will probably be happy to post any corrections on his web page or in a forum (maybe even in the next issue of kotdt). My experience is reviewers are usually happy to do this.
Quote from: One Horse Town;546280Sorry about it and all that, but the way the thread is going it's starting to look like self-promotion to me.
Which is fine, of course, but might belong in another sub-forum. Just sayin'
Apologies, and not my intent. More of a vent/rant. Please feel free to delete or move anything you find objectionable.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;546282Unless there are major factual errors in the review, I would be hesitant to do this. I have never really seen a review response improve things (best case scenario you clarify some rules, worst case you look like someone who can't handle a bad review (think kevin smith and twitter). I say if you really wantvsome insight contact the reviewer directly (for example if you are unclear on any of his criticisms). At least now you know what his disikes are and if you can submit things in future you think he is more likley to enjoy.
Keep in mind a review is just someone's opinion. He is entitled to his opinion, and when you send material for review you do so knowinng it could get slammed. If you simply dont like the reviewers style (maybe you can handle a bad review just fine, but this reviewer's approach bothers you for some reason) then just don't send more material to him.
I'm not going to ask for a correction. I knew the risks. I need to take it like an adult and just move forward.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;546285Apologies, and not my intent. More of a vent/rant. Please feel free to delete or move anything you find objectionable.
No need. Just seemed a bit of an odd thread for the main forum.
A bit like Pundit's Arrows of Indra now has a publisher thread - not sure why that's here either.
It seems to be turning into a general thread on reviewers, at least. Sometimes, a reviewer just misses the point, and it appears to be the case here. It's something to watch out for, if you review stuff.
You know marketers often seed bad reviews on places like Amazon, right? Between the review and this thread, you might get a nice uptick in sales.
Nobody reads the articles in kodt anyway. They're usually shit.
Let it go. Put the good reviews if possible (quoted) on your website and ignore the bad one. You can't make people like something they don't. You cant deal with someone who is determined to NOT like something and give it a fair shake.
I like the idea of your game myself. I'm just poor game designer who doesn't have a lot of cash :D
Quote from: Silverlion;546319Let it go. Put the good reviews if possible (quoted) on your website and ignore the bad one.
I've already been doing that :)
QuoteYou can't make people like something they don't. You cant deal with someone who is determined to NOT like something and give it a fair shake.
Nor do I really expect to get glowing reviews every time. This was just the first one, and it was a pretty big source, so I guess you could say my virginity is lost, so it hits a little harder than normal :P
I guess a polarizing game is better than a game that everyone feels is "meh". WotC seems to be on that track ;)
Quote from: mhensley;546309Nobody reads the articles in kodt anyway. They're usually shit.
I appreciate the sentiment, but I'd really rather not have this turn into a thread disparaging anyone. It just wasn't his kind of game, obviously.
Quote from: One Horse Town;546280Sorry about it and all that, but the way the thread is going it's starting to look like self-promotion to me.
Which is fine, of course, but might belong in another sub-forum. Just sayin'
Does it really matter?
Quote from: B.T.;546354Does it really matter?
Not really. But i'm cranky that way. ;)
Quote from: Sacrosanct;546334I appreciate the sentiment, but I'd really rather not have this turn into a thread disparaging anyone. It just wasn't his kind of game, obviously.
Hey Sacro... I just stumbled across your game this last weekend at Rainy Day, and given that you're local I have to find out more...
But that's not why I'm going to comment. I'm going to comment as a long time, die hard reader of kodt.
I have yet to read a single review in KODT which I thought merited the ink spent on it. By in large, the reviews are all positive, all quick, barely thought through. When they aren't, they are massive cryptic rants about how bad "x" is. Seriously, I love KODT, but I don't even bother with the reviews... I've considered doing a mad-libs boilerplate template for KODT reviews.
So, honestly, as a potential fan of yours and a strong fan of KODT, don't let this one bother you. You have a unique idea, and most people don't get unique ideas.
-V.
Been there too and this is a bit of a pet hate for me. If you have set out to design a fast on the fly game and it is marketed as such then the critique should center on how well you have achieved that design aim. I had a similar problem with Dog Town because of its subject matter and btw it has plenty of legitimate flaws. As a reviewer you may not like a crime orientated game or the genre in general, but don't let that skew the whole review because there are people who do (like horror as well). Perhaps the reviewer is entrenched in the epic/comprehensive rpg and can't see past that.
Keep your chin up.
I feel your pain, Sacrosanct. I got my first bad review back in January. The worst part was, it was for my first publication... and it was the first review to be posted. The reviewer didn't really know how to write a review; it read more like a "flame" than anything else. Just a lot of nit-picking, bitching, whining and no attempt whatsoever to inform anyone about the content of the product.
Then I had a talk with my publisher about getting some review copies out, and a number of positive reviews followed. A couple of months later, another (bigger!) company informed us wanted to license my book for their RPG line. That "flame" review apparently didn't affect their decision at all; and I'm fairly sure they read it.
The point is: if it's obvious the reviewer just doesn't get it, nobody is going to pay attention to his BS. Most importantly, people in the industry who are interested in your work know how to spot a bullshit review. That review says a lot more about the reviewer than it says about you, or your work. He's just made himself look bad.
Thanks everyone for the support. I guess I just needed to rant a bit. I do wish he would have at least went to my website, because he complained that there was no additional support for the game, and if he had gone to my website, he would have found a lot of support in the form of additional expansions, as well as free downloads for a campaign setting, adventures, FAQ, Alternate play styles, and even detailed 500 word write ups on monster ecologies (a big complaint of his as something that was lacking).
I guess I assumed a reviewer would also check out the website if there were any questions or concerns. I suppose that was my mistake.
And now my illogical and unreasonable paranoia comes out because the reviewer is a frequent poster at TBP, and maybe I pissed him off (which is possible, because I've probably pissed off a lot of people :)
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;546543I feel your pain, Sacrosanct. I got my first bad review back in January. The worst part was, it was for my first publication... and it was the first review to be posted. The reviewer didn't really know how to write a review; it read more like a "flame" than anything else. Just a lot of nit-picking, bitching, whining and no attempt whatsoever to inform anyone about the content of the product.
Then I had a talk with my publisher about getting some review copies out, and a number of positive reviews followed. A couple of months later, another (bigger!) company informed us wanted to license my book for their RPG line. That "flame" review apparently didn't affect their decision at all; and I'm fairly sure they read it.
The point is: if it's obvious the reviewer just doesn't get it, nobody is going to pay attention to his BS. Most importantly, people in the industry who are interested in your work know how to spot a bullshit review. That review says a lot more about the reviewer than it says about you, or your work. He's just made himself look bad.
Reviewers are like any other gamers, they come from a variety of viewpoints and even the best game is going to get negative reactions here or there (just think of movie reviews). With game reviews the odds are even more wild because at least with films there are hundreds of reviews for a given movie and it kind of equalizes over time. But games tend to get a handful of reviews. When I send stuff out for review my biggest concern is whether the reviewer informs the reader about the game. Even if the person doesn't like your book (or really hates parts of it), if they explain it then the reader still has a chance to decide if the game is worth checking out.
Quote from: danbuter;546266The reviewer obviously missed the whole point of the game.
Yeah, it sounds like you said to him 'Try this, it's called an orange, see what you think', and he responded with 'Whoa! That's a really disgusting apple.' I hear you dude, but, you know, don't despair: with all games, there are them as grok, and them as don't grok. Address yourself to the former group of people and just ignore the rest.
I don't know how I missed this game, but I just placed my order for a start set. ;)
This looks to be right up my alley.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;546264I suppose my run of good fortune wouldn't last forever. In the past year or so, all I've had was good reviews (even winning Diehard Gamefan's game of the year), so it was a matter of time before I got a bad one.
Too bad it's in a big publication like Knights of the Dinner Table. When I submitted the game to be reviewed, I kept it pretty basic because I didn't want to skew or influence the reviewer. I only told him what it was about, and that a really important aspect of it was the purpose: to get your rpg fix in when you didn't have space to lug around bags of dice or lots of books. It literally was a deck of cards, a pencil, and 3 dice that you could all fit in your pocket and play an rpg.
That's the only disagreement I had with the review because the reviewer then proceeded to say how bad it was by comparing it to full sized RPG books. Of course I don't have rules describing hundreds of scenarios, it's physically impossible to do that with the structure of the game.
But his biggest complaint (that he said was his biggest), was that on the monster cards, there wasn't a description on ecology (behavior, etc). Again, where exactly are you supposed to put it all and keep a text size that you can still read?
This two disagreements hit home with his sentence: "I don't care if there isn't enough space on the cards to do a better job, this is precisely why we have manuals!"
The reason that part bothered me is because I explicitly said that this is portable game where you don't have to carry around manuals. I don't mind the bad review so much as I mind the fact that he totally missed the point of the game.
Then of course I also took issue with him complaining about how sparse the rules were, and then proceeded to make complaints about things the rules explicitly spelled out. Like, "I haven't even the faintest idea how hard a difficulty 5 action might be", which the rules clearly stated, "In order to make a check, roll the d6, add any modifiers for abilities or skills, and get higher than the difficulty number." I even gave an example scenario.
Or, "There's so much more you can do with cards! You can shuffle them, pick them at random, arrange them on the table...etc...and yet Compact Heroes does nothing more than use them as a resource." When I devoted a few paragraphs explaining that you can do exactly what Mr. Desai just said.
There were other complaints, like the maps were too small to show the players where they were positioned at. Well, duh. The map cards were for the GM, not the players. It's not a mini game.
So yeah, if you hate the game, I have no problem because that's your prerogative. But if you're gonna make complaints, at least read the material given you first because most of them were flat out incorrect.
Oh well, I suppose this is par for the course for being a designer. Someone once told me, "It's best to have a really good review, or a really bad one. You don't ever want a mediocre one." So in that respect, I guess I'm still batting 100%.
Your review of the review got me interested in your game, for what that is worth.
Based on the number of folks who have decided to check out your game I withdraw my previous advice.
Quote from: Jason Coplen;546622I don't know how I missed this game, but I just placed my order for a start set. ;)
This looks to be right up my alley.
Quote from: Mistwell;546624Your review of the review got me interested in your game, for what that is worth.
Thank you both very much, but I really don't want to turn this into a "pimp my product" thread. I'll be more than happy to answer any questions you have via PM if you like. Or if enough people are curious, a thread in the Ads forum? Mods, is that right?
If I actually had money I would pick the game up. I reminds me of this other card based RPG about 20 years ago called Dragon something or other. But this seems much more compact (duh).
Quote from: Sacrosanct;546641Thank you both very much, but I really don't want to turn this into a "pimp my product" thread. I'll be more than happy to answer any questions you have via PM if you like. Or if enough people are curious, a thread in the Ads forum? Mods, is that right?
You could go that route, make a formal ad in the Ads forum linking to where the product can be purchased, what it is about and so on, and from there you guys can take apart the game, ask questions and stuff.
I agree with OHT here, though: I do see the same kind of 'pimping' aspect to the thread here, but (1) the OP wasn't strictly about pimping your game or event, and (2) at the same time Pundit did pretty much the same thing with his own thread about Arrows of Indra finding a publisher, and that thread was never moved. It's a grey area really. A bit like porn: I know it when I see it, see what I mean?
I hope this works then. For any questions re: Compact Heroes, I have created this thread in the News/Adverts forum where I'll be more than happy to answer questions
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=546673#post546673
"It's a shit business. Glad I'm out of it."
Quote from: thedungeondelver;546679"It's a shit business. Glad I'm out of it."
I said the same thing after I lost my job as a DJ.
And after I quit my job as a PI.
But dammit, I
like RPGs! (table-top, not shoulder-fired)
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;546687I said the same thing after I lost my job as a DJ.
And after I quit my job as a PI.
But dammit, I like RPGs! (table-top, not shoulder-fired)
...what do you have against shoulder fired RPGs?
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;546699...what do you have against shoulder fired RPGs?
I've never been checked out on them... I'd probably just shoot my eye out. :duh:
Quote from: Sacrosanct;546641Thank you both very much, but I really don't want to turn this into a "pimp my product" thread. I'll be more than happy to answer any questions you have via PM if you like. Or if enough people are curious, a thread in the Ads forum? Mods, is that right?
Yes, that's quite right.
RPGPundit
Oh. Literally a bad review. At first I thought this would be about a game getting a bad review. Now I'm wondering if I've even done such bad reviews.