TheRPGSite

I know what the difference is.

Do you? Tell me. I need help articulating it.

One isn't constrained by dungeon walls?

What's an 'adventure game'?

When is a dungeon crawl not an adventure game?

If you can answer that, you're more than halfway home.  Here's a start:

A dungeon crawl is only an adventure game when its moving parts interact with one another.  Killing the acolytes in room 3b will trigger a change in the behavior of the high priest's guards in rooms 6 to 9.

Briefly and dogmatically: A dungeon crawl is never by itself an adventure game, but it may be part of one. An adventure game is about roaming a whole world. In order for a dungeon crawl to be part of an adventure game it must be part of that world. QED

A dungeon crawl is going through a dungeon.  

An "adventure game" is a made up piece of jargon, or a type of computer game that involves a lot of puzzles that make no sense if you aren't on drugs.

Settembrini is the "expert" here with his preaching the gospel of ARS (AbenteuerRollenSpiel), however he's off writing a module for Module Writing Month.

I'd have thought that a dungeon crawl was a possible type of Adventure Game, but Pierce's idea that a DC is only a component of an Adventure Game makes sense.

I don't know if you'd agree with Sett's idea anyway--whatever it is. Calithena, maybe you could at least put up some of your ideas, or few "games" that fall on either side of the line in your opinion.

Quote from: J Arcanea type of computer game that involves a lot of puzzles that make no sense if you aren't on drugs.

B-But I liked Syberia...

You guys are kidding - right??

An Adventure Game ? - thats a much debated phrase that means different things to dfferent people. (sadly its also a phrase that gets mis-appropriated from tme to time )

 Dungeon Crawl - thats what happens when the bad guys all have archers or all the traps are set at eye-level or rigged to chop the heads off of adventurers - you better start crawling through that "dungeon".


- Ed C.

Adventure Games - The only way to game

Dungeon Crawls - see adventure games

Anything else/Thematic/Story Games - The wrong way to game or go fuck yourself with a stick

Regards,
David R

This thread productive for you so far, Cal?

This is foolish.

Most roleplaying games are adventure games. An adventure game is one where the characters go places and do stuff.

This is opposition to the thematic game which is about characters that have feelings and issues.

A dungeon crawl is a subset of the adventure game because it always involves going places and doing stuff.

"Adventure game" is not a meaningful term; for starters, it doesn't refer to a commonly agreed thing.

Quote from: Melan"Adventure game" is not a meaningful term; for starters, it doesn't refer to a commonly agreed thing.

Well said. Especially it begs the question that if a game isn't about adventure, what is it about then? Is DitV not about an adventure? Agon? The weekend where the players all just sat on the council of S'pfhreathul, deciding about the future of the Thirteen Allied Fiefdoms?

Quote from: Melan"Adventure game" is not a meaningful term; for starters, it doesn't refer to a commonly agreed thing.

That never stopped the Forge... :D

-clash

The question is bogus as long as we don't know what a adventure game is. I've made up a definition for myself, but a.) it is only in German (and exact translation would be a hell) and b.) I smashed a lot of heads about that definition with Sett on the German BBS', so I guess it isn't universal usable.

Now, I define adventure gaming as a gaming style where tactical player performance (as opposed to character performance), hard-won victories (as opposed to "the story the GM fudges") and competition against the obstacles and the try to show off as a valuable player are main elements.

Now, according to that definition, I can think of dungeon crawls that aren't adventure gaming. For instance, if the GM fudges behind the screen, changes secretly enemy stats and does other Illusionism stuff, the value of the player performance is discarded, and cheaty-storytelling takes over. I don't know mof English examples, but I've seen that a lot in TDE dungeons.
I can also think of dungeon-crawls that are basically interactive stories. For instance, I remember a Earthdawn adventure I've played where a Kaern and the entry of it played a important role, but there didn't adventury stuff happen. It was more about convincing the dwellers that we aren't demons and to free them from their now needless hideout.

Quote from: SkyrockNow, I define adventure gaming as a gaming style where tactical player performance (as opposed to character performance), hard-won victories (as opposed to "the story the GM fudges") and competition against the obstacles and the try to show off as a valuable player are main elements.

While I certainly agree with that kind of playing style, I still don't see where the "adventure" part comes in. I've always equated "adventure" with "exciting experience", and at least my Webster seems to agree with me here (I'm talking about the word itself, not the gaming adventure module or session).

It's certainly a half-way snappy phrase, but for True Scientific Realism another term might be preferrable.

Quote from: SosthenesWell said. Especially it begs the question that if a game isn't about adventure, what is it about then? Is DitV not about an adventure? Agon? The weekend where the players all just sat on the council of S'pfhreathul, deciding about the future of the Thirteen Allied Fiefdoms?

DiTV is about exploring and demonstrating different types of morality. There's no adventure, it's all theme.

Agon I have no idea.

In your last example, it could be either one. If that were the entirety of the entire roleplaying session, and the entire " deciding about the future of the fiefdoms" was actually just a thinly veiled allegory for some political issue, it would not be an adventure. It would be similar to the thematic game "Executive Decision".

However, if it were just one session in a campaign where the characters had been travelling around doing stuff, and somehow gotten embroiled in those things in the course of their game, than it could definitely be part of an adventure.

Similarly, you could have a fake dungeon crawl where the whole game is really about how the goblin really loves the swordswoman or is thinly veiled code for dealing with some political issue or whatever, and it would not be an adventure.

Time being short, I restrain myself to illustrating my understanding of Adventure Gaming:


(http://bp3.blogger.com/_BHFtxAZuoos/RbioRxyGTTI/AAAAAAAAAAY/jhNbU2bwuLw/s1600-h/Dragon.png)

(http://www.travellerbibliography.org/challenge/27.jpg)


Abyssal got it right, in that it´s a very broad category, that basically acts as a way more appropriate moniker for what is called "trad games" by sinister parties.

YMMV, of course.

Quote from: SosthenesWhile I certainly agree with that kind of playing style, I still don't see where the "adventure" part comes in. I've always equated "adventure" with "exciting experience", and at least my Webster seems to agree with me here (I'm talking about the word itself, not the gaming adventure module or session).

We are talking about different things here.

I talk about the meta level, about what the participants themselves do and how they produce the fictional level.

You talk about the fictional level, about whether or not there are elves and dwarves, or, according to the current thread, whether or not there is adventurous stuff in the fiction included.

I think it's crucial to distinguish these two levels, because they're independent from each other. Even cheaty-storytelling can produce adventurous fiction (think of WWs Adventure!, for instance), while _theoretically_ adventure gaming could lead to non-adventurous fiction (I dunno... maybe a tactical soap opera RPG about harming each other with small-scale intrigues?)

However, in practice, adventure gaming and adventurous fiction are almost always connected (you see how artificial my example above is), so you have a good point. Actually, there must be some adventurous fiction in addition to the adventure gaming on the meta level to turn it into a real adventure game.

QuoteAn adventure game is one where the characters go places and do stuff.

The characters go places and do stuff in DitV....

Quote from: SkyrockWe are talking about different things here.

I talk about the meta level, about what the participants themselves do and how they produce the fictional level.

You talk about the fictional level, about whether or not there are elves and dwarves, or, according to the current thread, whether or not there is adventurous stuff in the fiction included.

Yes, you're talking about that. But the term "adventure" doesn't implicitly _say_ that. Which is the crux of the matter.

Droog, this sophistry does not do your usual level headedness justice.
I would bet a hundred bucks that only JArcane and DavidR are genuinely not understanding what I´m referring too.
All others are just being smartasses with an accepted and age old term, that even Dave Weseley thinks would be the best moniker for what is talked about.

Damn, don´t drag me into this. I hereby pronounce Abyssal to be right, all the time.

So now I´ll spend an action point to make my WIL save, and will be off till finished. See ya!

Quote from: SosthenesYes, you're talking about that. But the term "adventure" doesn't implicitly _say_ that. Which is the crux of the matter.

The term is generally a crux... Sett made it known as "Adventure Gaming", and I took the term as some German Forgie asked what's the thrill about it and filled it with a clearer definition.
Unluckily, my definition is only tangent to adventurous fiction. If I rename the term, no one knows again what it does mean (as adventure gaming has some rep, as opposed to, let's say tactical gaming or performance gaming). If I don't rename, there remains the red herring of pure focus on adventurous fiction while ignoring the meta level.

At least, adventurous fiction plays a bigger role in Adventure Gaming than narration does in Narrativism ;) Could be worse (and worse than GNS would be really low).

I really have no objections to the term in a marketing sense. It kinda resembles "action movie", like there's no action in horror flicks...

Not that happy for theoretical discussions, though. Adventure RPG vs. Thematic RPG is yucky on both sides. Really doesn't tell you anything about it. Mere shortcuts, not descriptions.

Quote from: SettembriniI would bet a hundred bucks that only JArcane and DavidR are genuinely not understanding what I´m referring too.
All others are just being smartasses with an accepted and age old term, that even Dave Weseley thinks would be the best moniker for what is talked about.

Yeah and add the Pundit to the list, if I remember correctly even he thinks this whole adventure/thematic stuff does not make much sense....at least with him, it's all about what is an rpg and what isn't...I disagree but at least he's honest about his disdain for certain games/gamers.

So Sett, I can't explore morality and character issues in D&D ? Oh wait, apparently AM doesn't think so...must have been playing D&D wrong all these years.

Regards,
David R

Perhaps, David, you've pointed out a flaw int he very basis of discussion (or, to be more kind to those with a problem, one of the flaws).

That is, to me, a dungeon crawl was a specific instance of a rules set in play.  You played a session that was a dungeon crawl.

Whereas "Adventure Game" refers to a categorization of game rules.

So it's apples versus this-specific-red-delicious-right-here.

I just cannot picture Puppies in the Swineyard as an "adventure".

Sorry.

- Ed C.

Quote from: James J SkachPerhaps, David, you've pointed out a flaw int he very basis of discussion (or, to be more kind to those with a problem, one of the flaws).

That is, to me, a dungeon crawl was a specific instance of a rules set in play.  You played a session that was a dungeon crawl.

Whereas "Adventure Game" refers to a categorization of game rules.

So it's apples versus this-specific-red-delicious-right-here.

Exactly.

But I would argue against the categorization of games rules termed as "Adventure"...Sett knows this very well.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: KoltarI just cannot picture Puppies in the Swineyard as an "adventure".

Sorry.

You're not Mormon, right? ;)

Quote from: James J SkachWhereas "Adventure Game" refers to a categorization of game rules.

After Setts diffuse definition, maybe.

My own definition regards sessions of game-play, not players, not systems. Of course, there're players that are more or less inclined towards Adventure Gaming, and there're games that have better or worse support for that kind of gaming (D&D vs Vampire), but in the end of the day, what matters is what the participants do.

Even the most hardcore wargamers with D&D3.5 end up in the territory of cheaty-storytelling if the GM is a fudging and rail-roading Swine bastard.

Quote from: David RExactly.

But I would argue against the categorization of games rules termed as "Adventure"...Sett knows this very well.

Regards,
David R

Oh no.  I'm not arguing one way or the other on that front.  Thats' for a different time and place (and done here already, IIRC).

I'm just sayin'...

Now Sky seems to be saying that this is because Sett's term is the basis of that issue - which is proabaly correct.  But I've never really heard any other explanations that use "Adventure Game" as a way to describe a specific sessions or group of seesions - whereas that's the onle way I've ever head "Dungeon Crawl" used...as in "We just got through this endless dungeon crawl last week, so lets do some resting up before we head out on this next adventure to seek out the Holy Man of Montasur in Florrinford to get his help in defeating the evil Robber Baron's plot!"

Quote from: James J SkachBut I've never really heard any other explanations that use "Adventure Game" as a way to describe a specific sessions or group of seesions

Well, I _did_ hear something similar at German LARPs, where some weekends result in lots of aristocratic snobs talking, eating, drinking and posing around. This has resulted in the counter-movement of people calling their old-fashioned hack-fests "adventure cons" (as in convention -- I'd like to see an adventure con artist, though).

Never heard it (or the German version) used for tabletop games, either. I don't hang around with effete theorists, though ;)

Quote from: James J SkachNow Sky seems to be saying that this is because Sett's term is the basis of that issue - which is proabaly correct.  But I've never really heard any other explanations that use "Adventure Game" as a way to describe a specific sessions or group of seesions

I've done so, but only in German yet: ARS manifesto (http://skyrock.blogg.de/eintrag.php?id=2). It would be difficult to translate it unambiguous and exactly - hell, even the German version is confusing and arouses a hell lot of misunderstandings ;) Also, there're interior discussions among German adventure gamers about it - ask Sett about the role of the adventure-gaming GM[1] and plausibility consideration as viable resolution mechanic in adventure games, for instance, or ask a friend of me (who isn't participating in English forums) about the role of player-player competition in a typical adventure game.

I don't even know if a translated version would be useful. It's especially focussed on the issues of the German RPG scene in its demarcations (TDE arouses a quite different kind of Swinedom than your American WW stuff, and brings different assumptions into other kinds of gaming), and it would probably need a near total re-write to make sense to an American audience.


[1] I know, it's tautological to say "adventure-gaming game master", but "adventure game master" or "adventure GM" looked even more stupid.

I don't think most Anglophones will instantly recognize the abbreviation "TDE", Skyrock.

Anyway, all this could be completely tangential until Calithena gives us some idea what he's talking about, and whether it has any relationship to the German ARS concept.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen"TDE"

40 posts here and second time that I explain it... I guess I should add it to my sig to save me some work ;)

TDE is the abbrevation for The Dark Eye, the most popular and influential RPG in Germany. Main difference to D&D is that it emphasizes "Storytelling" instead of adventure gaming. Additionally, it emphasizes a special kind of storytelling where atmosphere and mood stand above ev'rything (including logic, drama and player influence).
Therefore, we have lots of Germans who never participated in well-made dungeons and never experienced functional adventure gaming. A great part of my manifesto explains stuff that is self-evident to an American, but a rare insight in German gamer circles.

Quote from: David RYeah and add the Pundit to the list, if I remember correctly even he thinks this whole adventure/thematic stuff does not make much sense....at least with him, it's all about what is an rpg and what isn't...I disagree but at least he's honest about his disdain for certain games/gamers.

So Sett, I can't explore morality and character issues in D&D ? Oh wait, apparently AM doesn't think so...must have been playing D&D wrong all these years.

Regards,
David R

David, you'd probably do better at this if you weren't always making wild claims about what I think. You might even want to start paying attention to what you actually think and start talking about that.

Anyhow, I can tell that many people are concerned about this, but it's needless. "What if my favorite game isn't really (an RPG/any good/respected) according to this crazy adventure/thematic divide?"

That's not the issue. That's never been the issue.

To understand this better you'll have to look at the history of the argument. I can summarize this:

1) The forgies wanted to say that all gaming was either gamism, simulationism, or narrativism.

2) These roughly translated into "primitive", "incorrect", and "story"

3) The forgies then redefined story to mean "with a moral teaching or political issue attached".

4) They carefully worded their theories so that the sole occupiers of the "story" category were only them, and nearly everything else fit into the "sim" category.

5) Eventually they came to realize that since everyone was in the "sim"  category, they themselves had become less significant. So they attempted to address this in various ways, including denigrating it as a whole, by labelling adventuring as "drowning and falling" gaming. (Drowning and falling being some of the things that you might have to deal with if you were off adventuring instead of talking about betrayal or lost love or global warming or whatever.) I remember watching some guys just openly snark about how superior they were because the foolish "sim" gamers had a random encounter happen in their game. This should have been a clue that these were two different hobbies altogether at that point.

6) Eventually they settled on the realization that what they were doing was entirely different from all roleplaying games out there. Settembrini has not yet entered the picture. They decided that what they were doing was called "Story-Games".

7) Ok, here's where we begin. With the realization that "story-games" are neither definitively stories, nor games, and certainly all roleplaying games (even the ones we don't like) create stories and are (usually) better games than anything those guys could ever come up with.. Settembrini makes the distinction about the mode of roleplay. It is not derogatory in any way, but it always seems to offend David R for some reason.

Here is the distinction:

There are thematic games. This is about roleplaying in which the characters primarily involve themselves with exploring themes and morals. This is usually done in a focused way.

There are adventure games in which the characters go places and do things. It's a lot less focused, and it includes just about every game from Amber to Tunnels and Trolls.

Quote from: Abyssal MawDavid, you'd probably do better at this if you weren't always making wild claims about what I think.

Better at what - obscurantism ? And care to point out my wild claims.

QuoteYou might even want to start paying attention to what you actually think and start talking about that.

Now this is grade A Swinethink right here.

QuoteAnyhow, I can tell that many people are concerned about this, but it's needless. "What if my favorite game isn't really (an RPG/any good/respected) according to this crazy adventure/thematic divide?"

They are concerned because the thinking/jargon is flawed and does not accurately reflect...reality?

QuoteThat's not the issue. That's never been the issue.

Really because it sure seems that way...not that anyone really cares, but "your games is adventure" or "your game is thematic" really is not how any "normal" gamer views rpgs

QuoteBORING HISTORY LESSON

Quote7) Ok, here's where we begin. With the realization that "story-games" are neither definitively stories, nor games, and certainly all roleplaying games (even the ones we don't like) create stories and are (usually) better games than anything those guys could ever come up with.. Settembrini makes the distinction about the mode of roleplay.

(Bolding mine)You gotta be kidding me. Now it's mode of roleplaying?

QuoteIt is not derogatory in any way, but it always seems to offend David R for some reason.

I said it was innacurate even if it now seems about mode of roleplaying. Why the fuck should it offend me? Oh right, maybe because Sett and you have a history of dissing playstyles that you don't like.

QuoteHere is the distinction:

There are thematic games. This is about roleplaying in which the characters primarily involve themselves with exploring themes and morals. This is usually done in a focused way.

This is funny, so D&D can be a thematic game ?

QuoteThere are adventure games in which the characters go places and do things. It's a lot less focused, and it includes just about every game from Amber to Tunnels and Trolls.

And Dogs in The Vineyard, right ?

Regards,
David R

I don't know what goes on in Germany, but I don't know that that needs to be the focus of this thread, either. Settembrini is not Kevin(c) Siembieda(R), and "adventure" is not his TM.

That said, "adventure" is not the opposite, either, or needn't be. It's neither one guy's private term nor so broad as to be unusable.

I have zero time for this, but for an alternative take on "adventure" I'd look at the Picaresque novel--where a hero is roaming a whole world. That gets us away from sector dukes in the FFW and back to Conan in the Wilderlands.

PS: Nor does this thread have to be about the fucking Forge, by the way.

Just a suggestion.

Quote from: David R...some stuff

Sometimes I think you just want to be offended and you really aren't sure how to get there. I'm not sure why you feel threatened by me.

Anyhow, don't take my word for it.

Take theirs (http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=3305&page=1#Item_0).

Quote from: Abyssal MawSometimes I think you just want to be offended and you really aren't sure how to get there.

The way ain't hard to find :

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6378

QuoteI'm not sure why you feel threatened by me.

Threatened by you? Jeez AM, you're the guy who seems threatened by a small group of gamers ...see below

QuoteTake theirs (http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=3305&page=1#Item_0).

But I don't blame you, you were drafted after all...imagine your surprise when you discover that this war is make believe....

Oh, hi fellows over at storygames, how you guys doing?

Regards,
David R

See, your'e all angry and snarky and stuff and I bet you aren't even sure why!

Again, I'm hoping you re-read all of the posts here, and maybe go back and look at how these terms came about. You would at least understand my position better.

I'm not expecting you to change or to suddenly take my side, but I do worry that you just aren't understanding me.

Snark ? Hell I thought your "want to get offended but don't know the way" was way better than my lame link.

*shrug* I know where you're coming from AM, I just think that Sett's jargon and your defense of it is wrong.

Regards,
David R

Maybe it's heresy, but I agree with David in the sense that I've never enjoyed Sett's categorization.  You certainly can't think of individual games that way, or you run up against people usgin D&D to support thematic play, or even shifting between "Thematic" and "Adventure" play on a regular, sometimes frequent, basis.

Or, to be fair to the forgeries, playing DitV precisely because it seems to mix "Adventure" and "Thematic" gaming in the proportions they like.

Just to be clear, there's something different going on in RPG's, but I don't think it helps to think of games, only in peoples' motivations/goals/methods. Even if successful doing so, you can't pidgoen-hole people too strongly.

So an Adventure Game is one or more sessions using an RPG rule-set to participation in hazardous or exciting experiences. A Dungeon Crawl is a subset of Adventure Games wherein the hazardous or exciting experience takes place in a dungeon.

As has been said upthread, I believe.

To excessively muddy the waters, Green Ronin's Advanced Game Master's Guide lists "Adventure" among its 40 "campaign themes". To whit,

Quote from: Green Ronin's Advanced Game Master's GuideAdventure themes focus on doing noteworthy, difficult, and exciting deeds. Elements include fights, exotic locales, heroic figures, death-defying stunts, and driven foes.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Or not. I simplify right down to "What I'm doing is fun. What you're doing doesn't look like any fun. So me over hyere, you be over thyere, screw you guys, I'm gonna fireball some orcs from my flying carpet.", so maybe I'm not worth listening to about this.

Guys, there really are some people out there who believe that Traveller (for example) should actually be a game about lost love and betrayal. That's the issue. That's where the terms appeared.

Abyssal Maw, you know what the best critique of another position is? Not parasitical nagging but building something new.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAbyssal Maw, you know what the best critique of another position is? Not parasitical nagging but building something new.

I guess. Now I'm wondering what the other 39 campaign themes are.

Hey man, I think it's great if they think Traveller is about lost love, or fig newtons, or the bear from the Snuggle commercial and they are having fun...

I think D&D is about rainbows, the color pink, snow-covered mountain tops, and Iuz...

I think Gurps is about Ned's Declassified School Survival Guide and Harley-Davidsons...

I think DitV is about Mormon dogs roaming an Italian vinyard to protect it from the ravagaes of the evil Catholic bunny rabbits...

Okay, Calithena still hasn't materialized, so I'm going to do like everyone else and give my definition, which is pretty close to what Skyrock writes above (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=110741&postcount=15), minus paragraph 2.

Why I define things this way is purely because I think it's a useful and interesting distinction, not because I'm working off a divinely-inspired dictionary with definitive definitions of certain English terms. I'm not even trying to demonstrate historical or traditional meanings. If you like you can just call them "A" games and not worry about what "A" stands for.

What makes an RPG an "adventure game" is the fact that it offers, and to an extent focuses on, the opportunity to engage with a fictional world along the following "ladder":

Discovery: Aha, a thing!

Interaction: If I do this to that thing, what happens?

Manipulation: By doing this, I can make the thing do that.

Mastery: If I want to do that, I can use this thing thus.

It isn't necessary to travel all the way along the ladder all the time; however, it's important to observe a continuity among the steps. What is also important is that the "thing" being engaged through the DIMM ladder is a fictional entity, not a real-world entity (the "GM"). Whether or not this is "really" an engagement with the fiction, or a matter of perception, is somewhat of a side issue. To illustrate in what I hope is a clear example:

Manipulation in an Adventure Game: by making a commotion at the top of the hill, I can distract the Fire Lizard so my comrades can trigger the trap.

Manipulation in a non-Adventure Game: by thinking of a showy/cool action that impresses the other players, I can get them to give me Plot Tokens that I can cash in to guarantee certain things happen the way I want. Or, by observing the GM's past use of timing, and watching the clock, I can figure out whether my assault on the villain's hideout is going to succeed or not.

For me, the exact details of the fiction--the type of conflicts--is less important than the approach to manipulating and mastering the fiction. Thus a council debating the fate of the Thirteen Fiefdoms, or a "tactical soap opera" can also be adventure games...as long as the manipulation or struggle for mastery is runs through the fiction instead of happening purely at the player level.

Two points I'd like to add at this time:

1) I realize that a game can partake of both A and non-A qualities...the classic instance being when hero points and such are used. However the simple fact that a game has mechanics, which aren't "real" in the game world, isn't important. As long as the mechanics are understood be primarily representational, as opposed to abstract, the "internal engagement" is preserved.

2) There's some confusion over the idea that a "game" can be both A and not-A. My answer: I'm not talking about the physical object or the arrangement of words on the page, but the way the game is played. Just as you can have a "competitive game of Chess" one day and a "friendly game of Chess" the next, without implying that "the game of Chess" is either competitive or friendly, there's no need to confuse "D&D" with "a game of D&D".

Quote from: James J SkachHey man, I think it's great if they think Traveller is about lost love, or fig newtons, or the bear from the Snuggle commercial and they are having fun...

I think D&D is about rainbows, the color pink, snow-covered mountain tops, and Iuz...

I think Gurps is about Ned's Declassified School Survival Guide and Harley-Davidsons...

I think DitV is about Mormon dogs roaming an Italian vinyard to protect it from the ravagaes of the evil Catholic bunny rabbits...

Those are all concrete concepts, though.

Anyhow, I respect the right of individuals to decide that sort of thing for for themselves or their own groups, but what we're dealing with are guys that want to decide for everyone else what the "theme" of a given game is, based upon their expertise at having mastered the GNS theory or something.

In any case, the girl who plays Moze in Ned's Declassified? Thats totally my girlfriend.

I totally want to play a Ned's Declassified RPG now...

What if I said D&D is about the btrayal of the human spirit and the loss of innocence - would that have your slip in knots?

Quote from: James J SkachI totally want to play a Ned's Declassified RPG now...

What if I said D&D is about the btrayal of the human spirit and the loss of innocence - would that have your slip in knots?

Well, no, but I would expect you then to suddenly tear off a latex mask to reveal you are actually Ben Lehman or something.




Jennifer "Moze" Mosely Fan Club President(http://www.starlight.org/atf/cf/%7B5BA4C9B4-81DD-431A-B59E-C291DBBFFC92%7D/StarPower_Headshot_Shaw_Web.gif)

If we ever meet (I might make it to GenCon after all!) I'll make sure to prove to you I'm not...

I don't care if Ben L. thinks that was D&D is for - as long as he doesn't tell me it's not, then, for killing things and taking stuff, or political intrigue, or one of a million other ways people probably use it...

and vice versa...of course..

To be totally fair:

Ben's probably the most decent guy out there about D&D. I just think he gets it wrong when he's trying to describe how it works on an objective level. Or when he says things like "D&D is supposed to be more like Battlestations" (which is an expandable boardgame type game with some minimal roleplaying elements).

Not to say Battlestations isn't cool either. Last year, it was one of only two games that I thought were cool enough to considered picking up. I settled on Faery's Tale because Battlestations' maps looked a bit flimsy and were (honestly) a bit on the expensive side.

Battlestations looks very cool. Also, if that's his take, then I think Ben Lehman should hook up with Settembrini.

Quote from: SosthenesYou're not Mormon, right? ;)

No - but my Aunt, Uncle and all my cousins ARE.
 If I told them about that game they'd probably say "What the ______!!""
 Well they wouldn't say that last word - because I don't believe I've ever heard them use a cuss or swearword.

Now if we cross TWO Film projects that Bill Paxton has been  in ...say BIG LOVE and ALIENS. You got polygamist father/husband who is also fighting acid-spewing aliens - now THAT would be a mormon adventure!!


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarNow if we cross TWO Film projects that Bill Paxton has been  in ...say BIG LOVE and ALIENS. You got polygamist father/husband who is also fighting acid-spewing aliens - now THAT would be a mormon adventure!!

I'd go for Chtulhu. A different kind of Elder Evil...

Klingon Mormons assault the Masonic Lounge FTW!