Quote from: SkyrockNow, I define adventure gaming as a gaming style where tactical player performance (as opposed to character performance), hard-won victories (as opposed to "the story the GM fudges") and competition against the obstacles and the try to show off as a valuable player are main elements.

While I certainly agree with that kind of playing style, I still don't see where the "adventure" part comes in. I've always equated "adventure" with "exciting experience", and at least my Webster seems to agree with me here (I'm talking about the word itself, not the gaming adventure module or session).

It's certainly a half-way snappy phrase, but for True Scientific Realism another term might be preferrable.

Quote from: SosthenesWell said. Especially it begs the question that if a game isn't about adventure, what is it about then? Is DitV not about an adventure? Agon? The weekend where the players all just sat on the council of S'pfhreathul, deciding about the future of the Thirteen Allied Fiefdoms?

DiTV is about exploring and demonstrating different types of morality. There's no adventure, it's all theme.

Agon I have no idea.

In your last example, it could be either one. If that were the entirety of the entire roleplaying session, and the entire " deciding about the future of the fiefdoms" was actually just a thinly veiled allegory for some political issue, it would not be an adventure. It would be similar to the thematic game "Executive Decision".

However, if it were just one session in a campaign where the characters had been travelling around doing stuff, and somehow gotten embroiled in those things in the course of their game, than it could definitely be part of an adventure.

Similarly, you could have a fake dungeon crawl where the whole game is really about how the goblin really loves the swordswoman or is thinly veiled code for dealing with some political issue or whatever, and it would not be an adventure.

Time being short, I restrain myself to illustrating my understanding of Adventure Gaming:







Abyssal got it right, in that it´s a very broad category, that basically acts as a way more appropriate moniker for what is called "trad games" by sinister parties.

YMMV, of course.

Quote from: SosthenesWhile I certainly agree with that kind of playing style, I still don't see where the "adventure" part comes in. I've always equated "adventure" with "exciting experience", and at least my Webster seems to agree with me here (I'm talking about the word itself, not the gaming adventure module or session).

We are talking about different things here.

I talk about the meta level, about what the participants themselves do and how they produce the fictional level.

You talk about the fictional level, about whether or not there are elves and dwarves, or, according to the current thread, whether or not there is adventurous stuff in the fiction included.

I think it's crucial to distinguish these two levels, because they're independent from each other. Even cheaty-storytelling can produce adventurous fiction (think of WWs Adventure!, for instance), while _theoretically_ adventure gaming could lead to non-adventurous fiction (I dunno... maybe a tactical soap opera RPG about harming each other with small-scale intrigues?)

However, in practice, adventure gaming and adventurous fiction are almost always connected (you see how artificial my example above is), so you have a good point. Actually, there must be some adventurous fiction in addition to the adventure gaming on the meta level to turn it into a real adventure game.

QuoteAn adventure game is one where the characters go places and do stuff.

The characters go places and do stuff in DitV....

Quote from: SkyrockWe are talking about different things here.

I talk about the meta level, about what the participants themselves do and how they produce the fictional level.

You talk about the fictional level, about whether or not there are elves and dwarves, or, according to the current thread, whether or not there is adventurous stuff in the fiction included.

Yes, you're talking about that. But the term "adventure" doesn't implicitly _say_ that. Which is the crux of the matter.

Droog, this sophistry does not do your usual level headedness justice.
I would bet a hundred bucks that only JArcane and DavidR are genuinely not understanding what I´m referring too.
All others are just being smartasses with an accepted and age old term, that even Dave Weseley thinks would be the best moniker for what is talked about.

Damn, don´t drag me into this. I hereby pronounce Abyssal to be right, all the time.

So now I´ll spend an action point to make my WIL save, and will be off till finished. See ya!

Quote from: SosthenesYes, you're talking about that. But the term "adventure" doesn't implicitly _say_ that. Which is the crux of the matter.

The term is generally a crux... Sett made it known as "Adventure Gaming", and I took the term as some German Forgie asked what's the thrill about it and filled it with a clearer definition.
Unluckily, my definition is only tangent to adventurous fiction. If I rename the term, no one knows again what it does mean (as adventure gaming has some rep, as opposed to, let's say tactical gaming or performance gaming). If I don't rename, there remains the red herring of pure focus on adventurous fiction while ignoring the meta level.

At least, adventurous fiction plays a bigger role in Adventure Gaming than narration does in Narrativism Could be worse (and worse than GNS would be really low).

I really have no objections to the term in a marketing sense. It kinda resembles "action movie", like there's no action in horror flicks...

Not that happy for theoretical discussions, though. Adventure RPG vs. Thematic RPG is yucky on both sides. Really doesn't tell you anything about it. Mere shortcuts, not descriptions.

Quote from: SettembriniI would bet a hundred bucks that only JArcane and DavidR are genuinely not understanding what I´m referring too.
All others are just being smartasses with an accepted and age old term, that even Dave Weseley thinks would be the best moniker for what is talked about.

Yeah and add the Pundit to the list, if I remember correctly even he thinks this whole adventure/thematic stuff does not make much sense....at least with him, it's all about what is an rpg and what isn't...I disagree but at least he's honest about his disdain for certain games/gamers.

So Sett, I can't explore morality and character issues in D&D ? Oh wait, apparently AM doesn't think so...must have been playing D&D wrong all these years.

Regards,
David R

Perhaps, David, you've pointed out a flaw int he very basis of discussion (or, to be more kind to those with a problem, one of the flaws).

That is, to me, a dungeon crawl was a specific instance of a rules set in play.  You played a session that was a dungeon crawl.

Whereas "Adventure Game" refers to a categorization of game rules.

So it's apples versus this-specific-red-delicious-right-here.

I just cannot picture Puppies in the Swineyard as an "adventure".

Sorry.

- Ed C.

Quote from: James J SkachPerhaps, David, you've pointed out a flaw int he very basis of discussion (or, to be more kind to those with a problem, one of the flaws).

That is, to me, a dungeon crawl was a specific instance of a rules set in play.  You played a session that was a dungeon crawl.

Whereas "Adventure Game" refers to a categorization of game rules.

So it's apples versus this-specific-red-delicious-right-here.

Exactly.

But I would argue against the categorization of games rules termed as "Adventure"...Sett knows this very well.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: KoltarI just cannot picture Puppies in the Swineyard as an "adventure".

Sorry.

You're not Mormon, right?

Quote from: James J SkachWhereas "Adventure Game" refers to a categorization of game rules.

After Setts diffuse definition, maybe.

My own definition regards sessions of game-play, not players, not systems. Of course, there're players that are more or less inclined towards Adventure Gaming, and there're games that have better or worse support for that kind of gaming (D&D vs Vampire), but in the end of the day, what matters is what the participants do.

Even the most hardcore wargamers with D&D3.5 end up in the territory of cheaty-storytelling if the GM is a fudging and rail-roading Swine bastard.