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SJW Male-feminist #Dungeonworld creator who accused the OSR of "toxic masculinity" ends up destroying his livestream gaming group by forcing a robot-rape scene on a woman gamer while he laughed.

[video=youtube_share;D4qfNbLk5PE]https://youtu.be/D4qfNbLk5PE[/youtube]

This topic is interesting. I will watch this later.  Thanks, Pundit.

Cat in video doing a cameo. Massive schadenfreude from The Pundit about a SJW stepping on his own dick. Plug for D&D in Spaaaaaccceee.

Well, two out of three ain't bad.

Greetings!

Excellent program, Pundit! "Rape is a failure of masculinity"--so true, Pundit! You know, I always find it ironic that underneath all the screeching about "Toxic Masculinity" there are so many of these male feminist jackasses involved in all kinds of reprehensible behavior towards women. This guy, there was some other developer at Black Hat, probably several others that I'm overlooking, plus a cadre of the same types in Hollywood, music and so on.

Deep down, these soy boys don't have a clue on how to treat women properly.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I bought Dungeon World six or so years ago and didn't really get into much. I looked into the author more for some insight on how I maybe use the book instead of relegating it to collecting dust on my shelf. I found Adam to be incredibly transparent and phoney and he just rubbed me the wrong way. He was also arrogant and rude to people on Twitter and it was no surprise to find him among those at the spearhead of cancel culture.

Needless to say I find it fitting that he's no better than the people he's railed against and it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. I do love to see woke eating their own.

Quote from: SHARK;1125492You know, I always find it ironic that underneath all the screeching about "Toxic Masculinity" there are so many of these male feminist jackasses involved in all kinds of reprehensible behavior towards women. This guy, there was some other developer at Black Hat, probably several others that I'm overlooking, plus a cadre of the same types in Hollywood, music and so on.

It's gotten so common, I just assume any guy who vociferiously claims to be a male feminist is some kind of creep.

[video=youtube_share;kTMow_7H47Q]https://youtu.be/kTMow_7H47Q[/youtube]

Quote from: RPGPundit;1125483SJW Male-feminist #Dungeonworld creator who accused the OSR of "toxic masculinity" ends up destroying his livestream gaming group by forcing a robot-rape scene on a woman gamer while he laughed.

What Da Fuuuuuuk is up with these SJWs??? That's sick shit. First, robo-rape in a RPG? That's just gross, dumb and unnecessary. But "while he laughed"??? That's creepy cringe-ass for a freaky middle-school kid, but an adult???

Allegedly according to Reddit (a shithole of untrustworthiness), Adam Kno-balls posted a non-apology where he blamed the players for not using their safety tools.

So everybody, if this happens to you, just remember to say: "Stop! This is my no-no square! You can't touch my character there!"

Quote from: jeff37923;1125490Plug for D&D in Spaaaaaccceee.

I wanna be a Space Elf with a Lazerbow!!!

[video=youtube;zmIEW2rZqaA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmIEW2rZqaA[/youtube]

First time I saw him, I could tell he was a creep.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1125500What Da Fuuuuuuk is up with these SJWs??? That's sick shit. First, robo-rape in a RPG? That's just gross, dumb and unnecessary. But "while he laughed"??? That's creepy cringe-ass for a freaky middle-school kid, but an adult???

Allegedly according to Reddit (a shithole of untrustworthiness), Adam Kno-balls posted a non-apology where he blamed the players for not using their safety tools.

So everybody, if this happens to you, just remember to say: "Stop! This is my no-no square! You can't touch my character there!"

Skeevy behaviour from Adam K there, not sure what he was thinking of. Your comment has given me an idea for a non-sjw safety tool, may I present the NO NONSENSE SQUARE!

Make a square out of cardboard and wave it at people who are engaging in nonesensical behaviour during game.

There are ideas in Dungeon World that I actually like.  Recently, I even purchased the book.  

But from my very first exposure to him via YouTube, I knew I was not a fan of the ambassador and co-creator of Dungeon World.  I am not a fan of his, at all.  

He has made himself "The" face of Dungeon World, to most people.  I just ignore him.

He's also been a big supporter/promoter of Fox's Warhammer ripoff. I wonder if we'll hear anything from him and his group in condemnation over Adam's actions?

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1125515He's also been a big supporter/promoter of Fox's Warhammer ripoff. I wonder if we'll hear anything from him and his group in condemnation over Adam's actions?

Probably not more often than not too many SJWs tend to circle the wagons when it is one of their own. Look at Green Ronin and their defence of Sulemain actions.

I love it when some SJWs pretend to be one an then show their true colors.

Quote from: S'mon;1125507First time I saw him, I could tell he was a creep.

Yep.  I got into  DW  years ago  and I looked to youtube to get some help with some of the concepts.  At the time there was little about DW other than by Koebel. I couldn't watch more than a couple minutes without him skeeving me out.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1125500Allegedly according to Reddit (a shithole of untrustworthiness), Adam Kno-balls posted a non-apology where he blamed the players for not using their safety tools.

Actually, according to Reddit (whose trustworthiness depends on the particular sub), he posted no such apology and claimed no safety tools were even in place (https://youtu.be/yYonGyQiILQ?t=146).

But I guess prefacing your statement with 'allegedly' excuses you from being held accountable for spreading bullshit.

I am entirely surprised by this development.

...Are you surprised, too?

........;)

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1125496It's gotten so common, I just assume any guy who vociferiously claims to be a male feminist is some kind of creep.

Quote from: S'mon;1125507First time I saw him, I could tell he was a creep.

Every. Single. Time. Like clockwork.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1125520Actually, according to Reddit (whose trustworthiness depends on the particular sub), he posted no such apology and claimed no safety tools were even in place (https://youtu.be/yYonGyQiILQ?t=146).

But I guess prefacing your statement with 'allegedly' excuses you from being held accountable for spreading bullshit.

LOL comments turned off on the youtube link. I guess no dissension allowed.

So finally got to watch Pundit's vid on this. Totally disagree with the silly assessment of Dungeon World, other the "Story telling game" part. I've been playing D&D since 1977, and DW in many ways simulates the way I have been running games all my life. Improv, fast and loose in a heroic fashion. During middle school and high school, this is exactly how we ran games during the school day, sans dice, or we used coins (shades  of Phil & Dixie).

It's just that in DW, the game facilitates and encourages that kind of play whereas with D&D or RW, I have to ignore a bunch of rules to run games successfully that way. Some of my favorite sessions of all time have been utilizing Dungeon World to run loose versions of U1, B3, and some OSR adventures.

Not all of us Grogs played/play RAW, with minis, grids, megadungeons, counting torches and the like. Where I grew up, that was actually pretty rare to see a game like that in the late 1970s. Into the Boom and Mentzer era, you saw some of that locally with the increase of Gaming stores,  but before that- it was all ToTM seat of the pants.

And fwiw, I'm definitely way right of people like Koebel.  :shrug:

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1125520Actually, according to Reddit (whose trustworthiness depends on the particular sub), he posted no such apology and claimed no safety tools were even in place (https://youtu.be/yYonGyQiILQ?t=146).

But I guess prefacing your statement with 'allegedly' excuses you from being held accountable for spreading bullshit.

You're literally going to link a video from the dude himself that doesn't allow comments? Fake news. Also, looked this guy up, literal LOL. What the fuck, he looks like a caricature of an SJW. Pundit wasn't kidding.

Anyway, not surprised one bit some jackass like this is literally sexually harassing women, yet would call a normal dude hitting on a girl in a bar "sexual harassment". It's an embarrassment to normal men to claim he's a man.

My basic feeling about Dungeon World is summed up like this:

Ninjas & Superspies: A game where you pretend to be characters getting up to crazy martial arts adventure & gunplay.
Hong Kong Action Theater: A game where you pretend to be characters who are actors pretending to be characters getting up to crazy martial arts adventure & gunplay.

Dungeons & Dragons: A game where you pretend to be characters getting into all kinds of fantasy adventure hijinks.
Dungeon World: A game where you pretend to be playing Dungeons & Dragons pretending to be characters getting into all kinds of fantasy adventure hijinks.

In both the HKAT & DW scenarios, I don't see what the intermediating bit does to improve things. It just seems like a less vital thing where you evoke some tropes and chuckle because they bring back a faded memory of how cool it was to experience or do the thing more directly.

Everytime I see someone put DW I have to stop and correct myself because I'm seeing Dragon Warriors and not Dungeon World. I have the same issue with PF, where I think Palladium Fantasy and not Pathfinder.

I did try to watch the offending Adam Koebel video but honestly I find it very hard to engage with actual play videos even supposedly famous ones like Crucial Roll.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1125520Actually, according to Reddit (whose trustworthiness depends on the particular sub), he posted no such apology and claimed no safety tools were even in place (https://youtu.be/yYonGyQiILQ?t=146).

But I guess prefacing your statement with 'allegedly' excuses you from being held accountable for spreading bullshit.

Spreading bullshit??? Here is the Reddit link.
https://www.reddit.com/r/rpghorrorstories/comments/ftvdp5/adam_koebel_dungeon_worlds_far_verona_stream/

And just in case the post vanishes, here's the Reddit post (my bold)

Adam Koebel's Far Verona livestream AP has been canceled after all of his players quit, in response to a scene last week where one of their characters was sexually assaulted in a scene Koebel laughed the entire time he ran it. He's since posted an "apology" video where he assigns the blame not to him for running it, but for the group as a whole for not utilizing safety tools. He's also said nothing on Twitter, his largest platform, where folks are understandably animated about it.
1.1k points 877 comments

And I don't trust ANY sub on Reddit. Their Noise to Signal ratio is shit overall. That's why I said "ALLEGEDLY" because I cannot vouch for what any Redditor posts.

Quote from: Melan;1125521I am entirely surprised by this development.

...Are you surprised, too?

........;)



Every. Single. Time. Like clockwork.

Yeah, every time anything like this happens a bunch of randos pop up with "Hur-dur I knew it the whole time". It's like an inconstant mother flip-flopping on a child's ex with a "I never liked them anyway!"

Quote from: Trinculoisdead;1125563Yeah, every time anything like this happens a bunch of randos pop up with "Hur-dur I knew it the whole time". It's like an inconstant mother flip-flopping on a child's ex with a "I never liked them anyway!"

Yeah, we all actually loved & admired Koebel until this SHOCKING REVELATION!!!!!

I don't like a lot of his views about gender and race and such in ttrpgs, but he's put out a ton of quality content up on his Youtube that has been invaluable to me in learning new systems.

I'm not surprised to hear that he's not popular on here, because of his views, but what I'm talking about are the angry mob over on Reddit. A little bit of their vitriol has spilled over into here as well it would seem.

I believe in separating CREATION from CREATOR. I'm happy to discuss the pros/cons of DungeonWorld without any concern about Kno-balls actions, beliefs or opinions on anything.

As for SJWs turning out to be freaks like clockwork, its both odd and yet its to be expected. It's another 80s throwback. Remember when TV evangelists were getting caught being perverts, cokeheads and/or embezzlers? That's the nature of the Loud Virtue Signaler. Those who preach their perfection the loudest often turn out to be those with most ego driven creepiness.

Quote from: Trinculoisdead;1125565I don't like a lot of his views about gender and race and such in ttrpgs, but he's put out a ton of quality content up on his Youtube that has been invaluable to me in learning new systems.

I'm not surprised to hear that he's not popular on here, because of his views, but what I'm talking about are the angry mob over on Reddit. A little bit of their vitriol has spilled over into here as well it would seem.

Eh. I've played Dungeon World. It was fine; derivative, but what isn't? I've seen Koebel on twitter (he gets retweeted by some of my follows) and he seems like a pretty boiler plate left-leaning game designer. He never struck me as a creep.

Honestly, even after watching the video on which all this hubbub is centered: he still doesn't. He strikes me as tone-deaf and vain. Which is pretty consistent with what little I know of the man.

I don't feel that this blunder reveals some deep darkness about him. Nor would it invalidate anything insightful or useful he's ever said or done (the nefarious Zack Smith has great advice for building and running games, although he's at least a terrible asshole and at most a serial rapist).

But, as far as the reaction: the usual suspects are having the expected reaction. What else? I don't anticipate deep responses from those who respond to all news through the powerful filters of their political leanings and emotional reaction.

He's pretty good.

Just to summarize what happened:
* He has a group of players. Koebel's style is to try and delve into player emotions and psychological states. If you have some phobia or whatever he wants to explore your feelings. So I'm not surprised this happened eventually.
* One player was sexually assaulted once, and through her character wanted to "learn how to say no to her friends and others" more.
* She got put in a situation where her character got raped by an NPC friend.

I have no idea what made him think "this is a good idea" except that maybe somehow he thought he was presenting her a situation with which she could "say no" and have a character development moment, or something. But instead it just creeped everyone out.

Generally though I love his stuff. DW is one of my favorite games and his videos are all nice to watch, especially the analysis ones. He's very big on game design in the vein of the game being nothing more than what its rules encourage you to do. So it gives you an eye for designing rules to make sure they actually follow through on the fluff you want.

Quote from: Trinculoisdead;1125563Yeah, every time anything like this happens a bunch of randos pop up with "Hur-dur I knew it the whole time". It's like an inconstant mother flip-flopping on a child's ex with a "I never liked them anyway!"

Nah. There is  clear pattern: people who do a lot of moral grandstanding commonly prove to be massive phonies with skeletons in their closet (if not a full cemetery in the basement). The "family values" politico discovered with a small harem; the fire-and-brimstones preacher caught with a suspiciously young boy; the beloved philanthropist who steals from the community and treats his staff like dirt - it is a story for the ages. These are just the same hypocrites as the religious right, except with pink hair, and slightly less drugs and sodomy.

He may or may not have written great games/gaming advice - that's an art/artist thing.

You have to be a special kind of stupid to think Rape is a funny/fun thing to Roleplay through.

In-fact, why would you do a blow-by-blow RP of any sexual scene in an RPG session? Like that is not what anyone is there for.

My issue with Kno-balls has ZERO to do with Dungeon World. It might be the best or worst RPG ever, and his RPGing advice could be the most amazing or most banal. If I play DW (and I hope to try it) and if I love the gameplay, I'd be more than happy to promote the game. But NONE of that matters. What matters is Kno-balls made himself out to be a Virtue Champion and developed a following around his woke brand...but lo and behold, he can't even handle the baseline of being a decent human being.

You don't ever rape PCs. Most especially the PC of a female player.

To quote the Simpsons, "RAPE NOW BAD!"

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125582Just to summarize what happened:
* He has a group of players. Koebel's style is to try and delve into player emotions and psychological states. If you have some phobia or whatever he wants to explore your feelings. So I'm not surprised this happened eventually.
* One player was sexually assaulted once, and through her character wanted to "learn how to say no to her friends and others" more.
* She got put in a situation where her character got raped by an NPC friend.

THIS is exactly why you don't mix psychological therapy with tabletop games. Kno-balls was playing amateur shrink. That's all sorts of dangerous for everyone involved and bound to result in a mess, or worse.

Hopefully the woman involved seeks out licensed professional counseling.

Here is her response to the whole thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y21hx6FEPE

Explains what happened and why she quit.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1125590Hopefully the woman involved seeks out licensed professional counseling.

Doing that right away is a great way to make things worse. You do that if you can't get over a trauma. Never as a first response.

Do people get over trauma without counseling.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125593Here is her response to the whole thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y21hx6FEPE

Explains what happened and why she quit.

Was just about to post that. I think it's important to understand what happened - AFAICT it looks like Koebel thought he could get away with it because it was male PC (very typical US media attitude that male on male rape is funny), because it was two robots, and because he'd set it up to be less visceral more mental.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125596Do people get over trauma without counseling.

Yes, mostly - if it's a single traumatic event (like this (arguably), or the ship sinking where half my aunt's children drowned). Counselling too early can stop re-integration. The advice I've seen is to seek counselling if after 6 months or so you're still having nightmares etc. I expect the advice varies a bit over time and place but the important point is that counselling helps re-integration if your mind has trouble processing what happened, but done too early it can disrupt the natural healing process.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1125585You have to be a special kind of stupid to think Rape is a funny/fun thing to Roleplay through.

In-fact, why would you do a blow-by-blow RP of any sexual scene in an RPG session? Like that is not what anyone is there for.

Well, it was what Koebel was there for, the rest of the group just didn't know that until it was too late.

Quote from: Shasarak;1125550I did try to watch the offending Adam Koebel video but honestly I find it very hard to engage with actual play videos even supposedly famous ones like Crucial Roll.

You only have to watch the part where it happens to experience the cringe and creepiness.

Quote from: jeff37923;1125599Well, it was what Koebel was there for, the rest of the group just didn't know that until it was too late.

It certainly seems like it. Guy looks genuinely creepy while doing it.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125596Do people get over trauma without counseling.

Sometimes they do. Sometimes reactions to it comes back later and they realize they haven't overcome it, but this can happen with counseling too. The most understood thing about this area is that it is not fully understood.

Meh...the usual massive overreaction of all the special snowflake morons that now are part of our hobby. Was it a good idea what Adam did? No, not if he admits that they didn't have a real "session zero" talk. But honestly, watch that scene...if this is your definition of rape, you are insulting all human beings who ever really got raped. This is blown waaaay out of proportion.

What i find more damning is how full on black&white-and-nothing-else people are...no one is ever allowed to make a mistake...these SJW just burn you down for good. No chance of redemption EVER. And they really think they are good people?! With that attitude? Fucking hypocrites, all of them.
The amount of folks who really think that they are on moral highground is appalling.

And just for the protocol - I don't even like Adam Koebel. His views on rpg are not mine and he thinks way too highly of himself (and always laughing about his own jokes etc.) ... someone put it quite aptly upthread: a "rolemodel" narcicist.

The point being missed is that unless the player is comfortable with what the DM is going to use on the player during a campaign. From what I can see it was never mentioned any of that to the player or the other players. I am not an SJW nor politically correct by any means throwing a sexual predator and having a sexual assault scene happen during the game without my permission is going to piss me off. It is a big breach of trust and I would probably drop out.

Stop with "another case of political correctness" garbage. I saw both videos and any DM with one functioning brain cell could see it was a bad idea. Hell any non-DM could see it. This kind of crap gives gaming a bad name. I am not a fan of SJWs anyone who is a decent human being could see it was a bad idea. Same bullshit with "everyone makes mistakes". That is one hell of an avoidable mistake. Even before the rise of political correctness the subject of sexual assault was and is never OK at the game table. Not without consulting the group and/or DM and even them if the majority is good with the topic. Even if permission is granted one still has to be very careful. Then again the same apologists for Koebel behavior would be screaming the longest and loudest if it was done to them. It's okay right the DM simply made a mistake am I right.

It might be that it is avoidable, but that's always easy to say in hindsight. Adam really did not read the room right, agreed. But remote gaming makes that harder. As said, not a fan of Adam, but i think most of the ongoing lynchmob members are way too hard on him. That "scorched earth" philosophy is really ridiculous. Because if that was the standard (aka you make one mistake and you're out for life) nobody would ever be allowed to play and/or GM again. So yeah "S/he who is without fault, throws the first stone" ... nobody would be allowed to throw anything. And that's what is so hilarious to see here...everyone thinking that they are without fault...laughable.

And the statement of the "assaulted" player on her youtube? Wow! I mean ok, you were disturbed by it...ok, I believe you. We get it. You're a delicate flower. But if you "are not sure if he even is still my friend" over something like that? Yeah, YOU are as much of a problem. Or to put it another way...nice way of defining friendship, if all it takes to break it with you is something like that. I'd rather have no friend then a "friend" like that.

If you start questioning your friendships after something like that, maybe you're not ready to be a person on twitch/twitter/youtube. You should take some time for selfcare and/or therapy sessions. Or, you know, look into REAL friendships...friendships that also can weather a bit of an argument and some hard times.

The social-media generation really makes me weep for the future of humankind.

It actually quite is very easily avoidable imo, 99.9% most tables and players do not want anything remotely resembling any form of sexual assault. At least not without very ample warning. Even if agreed most do not want that kind of thing being done on a live session in front of strangers. So please stop making excuses and very pathetically lame ones at that.

Sexual assaulting a player or a topic at most gaming tables is not and never was acceptable in gaming. Now if the apologists want to claim it is was get your head checked. It was not a simple mistake like Adam killing off the player character unfairly and the player crying foul and asking for his head. That is a simple mistake and I would be defending him too. This is one hell of a very absolutely easily avoidable mistake. It's not even a matter of not being able to read a room. It's either lacking common sense or not giving an equally absolute fuck as a DM and person about the well being of the players. He taught if he him himself behind being an sJW all would be forgiven. Given the climate in rpgs doing a rape assault scenario on a female player and one deserves to be banned for life for being an utter douche of a human being.

Again get your head checked if being a victim of a sexual assault during an rpg session  is being a "delicate flower". That is showing your ignorance and mot even knowing what being a "delicate flower" means imo. I do something stupid in game, my character dies and I rage quit and blame the DM for being unfair and go online and say he should be blacklisted yes I'm a delicate flower. Any DM or player thinking it is cool to use a sexual assault scenario on one of my characters and tries to say "suck it up buttercup" and/or apology is dead to me. I don't care if we knew each other since kindergarten I don't want to be friends let alone anyone who takes such a cavalier and sociopathoc view of sexual assault.

When the first comment someone tells me is "sexual assault of a player it's nothing your a bunch of PC pansies" shows me that is not is someone I want to game with let alone in my life socially. While also not being a well adjusted person either mentally or socially.

Some people think walking up to strange women and sniffing their hair and putting your hands on them is fine.  I guess some people think bringing up ANYTHING that could be construed as sexual assault, and watching the scene on the quartering, his tone was real rapey.  Would i call it rape?  No.  But, no way in hell does what he did fall into the boundaries of expected table top play.  His player reactions should have been a massive que.  I dont care to cancel him, but I to ROFLMAO that he has been oh so very woke and now has to survive in the pit trap he built, with the monsters he fed.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125629It might be that it is avoidable, but that's always easy to say in hindsight. Adam really did not read the room right, agreed. But remote gaming makes that harder. As said, not a fan of Adam, but i think most of the ongoing lynchmob members are way too hard on him. That "scorched earth" philosophy is really ridiculous. Because if that was the standard (aka you make one mistake and you're out for life) nobody would ever be allowed to play and/or GM again. So yeah "S/he who is without fault, throws the first stone" ... nobody would be allowed to throw anything. And that's what is so hilarious to see here...everyone thinking that they are without fault...laughable.

And the statement of the "assaulted" player on her youtube? Wow! I mean ok, you were disturbed by it...ok, I believe you. We get it. You're a delicate flower. But if you "are not sure if he even is still my friend" over something like that? Yeah, YOU are as much of a problem. Or to put it another way...nice way of defining friendship, if all it takes to break it with you is something like that. I'd rather have no friend then a "friend" like that.

If you start questioning your friendships after something like that, maybe you're not ready to be a person on twitch/twitter/youtube. You should take some time for selfcare and/or therapy sessions. Or, you know, look into REAL friendships...friendships that also can weather a bit of an argument and some hard times.

The social-media generation really makes me weep for the future of humankind.

  He was waaay creepy.  I feel people should be able to make a mistake, BUT this woke, cancel culture male feminist has plenty of sins, his mistake is this one was against his own tribe.  And they are not too big on christian philosophy of casting the first stone last I heard.  Meaning he burned his bridge with my side of the fence with many transgressions, and it only takes one for the side he chose to thrive on.  Whoops.  I guess he can #learntocode

Quote from: oggsmash;1125642Some people think walking up to strange women and sniffing their hair and putting your hands on them is fine.  I guess some people think bringing up ANYTHING that could be construed as sexual assault, and watching the scene on the quartering, his tone was real rapey.  Would i call it rape?  No.  But, no way in hell does what he did fall into the boundaries of expected table top play.  His player reactions should have been a massive que.  I dont care to cancel him, but I to ROFLMAO that he has been oh so very woke and now has to survive in the pit trap he built, with the monsters he fed.

Agreed and seconded. the subject should have been handled very carefully if even allowed at the table and he just seemed to want to die on that particular hill and expected his SJW credentials to shield him from any responsibility of his truly stupid decision to include it at the table. Reading the room is not an exact science anything remotely involving sexual assault is a no brainer.

Yeah, again, sureshot, your definition of rape is offensive if you think that was a rape scene. Have you even seen the video being talked about? It didn't even involve sexual actions... . But again, not my main point. But good for you being all judgmental...that's apparently your one good skill.
Unsurprisingly, you are the usual standard (probably american) douchebag who thinks it's ok to kill and mutilate (and probably torture as well) all day long in rpgs but then you go haywire if there is just the tiniest bit of whatever other problematic stuff there is (in this case, a robot having a software induced Orgasm...oh nooo, the horror... :rolleyes:). You and your doublestandardy morals are really cute.

As i said, Adam made mistakes. The biggest being not having a clear and decisive talk with his group before session 1. And then, yes, pretty completely not getting the "table"-vibes.
And lol...yeah, I'm not an Adam apologist. I have a lot of Schadenfreude atm because I really think that Koebel is too full of himself. I'm sure this is a very humbling experience for him. But i find the nerd-outrage out there just laughable. As said, hypocrits.
As if there are people who can judge what is ok at the table for all roleplayers ever :rolleyes:

And, you know, you also can proactively talk to your GM before session one. So if player A nerver ever wants to have anything to do in play with anything close to sexual, tell your GM. Why should all the responsibility be on the GM?

Everyone makes mistakes and if someone takes action to undo and/or apologize sincerely, they deserve second chances because to err is human. I am happy to slap down Kno-balls now and if he smartens up in the future, I am happy to support him them. People can learn and change. But at THIS moment, he's the RPG equivalent of 80s tele-evangelists caught doing the opposite of what they preach.

Quote from: S'mon;1125595Doing that right away is a great way to make things worse. You do that if you can't get over a trauma. Never as a first response.

I'm not referring to the game incident as trauma, and I should have been more specific. If its true she was sexually assaulted and sought out gaming to learn "how to say no to friends", that's sounds like long term issues she needs counseling for. Again, if its true. It's the internet so only she knows.

Also, I see no problem with people seeking immediate counseling after a trauma. Note I said counseling, not a full treatment program and certainly not being tossed into a prescription drug regimen. In the past, people would seek out their parish priest after something traumatic. Or have elders in their family to provide support, listening and wisdom. Today, we have rent-a-friends in psychologist offices who can be used as sounding boards and empathy givers. The advantage of a professional evaluation is a good therapist could determine if there's serious underlying issues and unresolved past traumas far beyond an immediate incident.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125596Do people get over trauma without counseling.

Absolutely! Everyone's brain is different and so much depends on childhood upbringing. I've read about 9/11 responders who had been first responders for decades in NYC dealing with gruesome shit daily, but the sheer scope of the 9/11 dead snapped something inside of them. But on the other hand, I've read about how the majority of combat vets return home without issue. Humans are weird. We're not one size fits all, especially our brains.

Except to zombies. Then our brains are all equally tasty. Braaaaaaaaaaains!!!!

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1125515He's also been a big supporter/promoter of Fox's Warhammer ripoff. I wonder if we'll hear anything from him and his group in condemnation over Adam's actions?

Not just a supporter/promoter, it appears Fox had a business dealing with some capacity with Koebel, as an "influencer" to run his games.

First, hilarious that Fox needs to pay people to run his game.

Second, funny how everyone who's had a Metoo-esque scandal in the hobby is a business associate of Fox, huh? He was working with Zak S too.

Quote from: NeonAce;1125533My basic feeling about Dungeon World is summed up like this:

Ninjas & Superspies: A game where you pretend to be characters getting up to crazy martial arts adventure & gunplay.
Hong Kong Action Theater: A game where you pretend to be characters who are actors pretending to be characters getting up to crazy martial arts adventure & gunplay.

Dungeons & Dragons: A game where you pretend to be characters getting into all kinds of fantasy adventure hijinks.
Dungeon World: A game where you pretend to be playing Dungeons & Dragons pretending to be characters getting into all kinds of fantasy adventure hijinks.

In both the HKAT & DW scenarios, I don't see what the intermediating bit does to improve things. It just seems like a less vital thing where you evoke some tropes and chuckle because they bring back a faded memory of how cool it was to experience or do the thing more directly.

Exactly.

Things appear to be getting worse (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/fts4rd/adam_koebel_dungeon_worlds_far_verona_stream/fmd3lv6/) for Adam "I'm a male feminist and people I call misogynists should be blacklisted" Koebel!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1125649Except to zombies. Then our brains are all equally tasty. Braaaaaaaaaaains!!!!

Sorry, but the zombies are just trying to be polite. Some brains definitely taste better than others.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125647Yeah, again, sureshot, your definition of rape is offensive if you think that was a rape scene. Have you even seen the video being talked about? It didn't even involve sexual actions... . But again, not my main point. But good for you being all judgmental...that's apparently your one good skill.

Unless the DMs checks with the player(s) any form of sexual assault at most tables is big no-no. Even then it is not a comfortable subject for most players and DMs. The player who was subject to the scene was bothered enough to leave. The rest of the group quit. Doing it on a livestream was an even stupider thing to do. Maybe I am judgmental better than being an apologist making excuses for someone who should have know better.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125647Unsurprisingly, you are the usual standard (probably american) douchebag who thinks it's ok to kill and mutilate (and probably torture as well) all day long in rpgs but then you go haywire if there is just the tiniest bit of whatever other problematic stuff there is (in this case, a robot having a software induced Orgasm...oh nooo, the horror... :rolleyes:). You and your doublestandardy morals are really cute.

I don't know what fucked up campaigns you play and run at your table. Pretty much torture, mutilation and sexual assault are not the norm. Not at my tables and I can probably speak for many here and say they don't do run those topics. Not without vetting it with the group first. Maybe you like to engage in rape, torture, mutilation fantasies in your games and it's right to do so. Don't try and bullshit us by claiming that stuff is pretty standard at most tables. I'm actually Canadian and if you think I am a SJW then your even more clueless than you appear to be. This place is pretty much the opposite of what most SJW style rpg forums are. If you want to accuse of being SJWs simply with not agreeing with you that is on you not us.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125647As i said, Adam made mistakes. The biggest being not having a clear and decisive talk with his group before session 1. And then, yes, pretty completely not getting the "table"-vibes.
And lol...yeah, I'm not an Adam apologist. I have a lot of Schadenfreude atm because I really think that Koebel is too full of himself. I'm sure this is a very humbling experience for him. But i find the nerd-outrage out there just laughable. As said, hypocrits.
As if there are people who can judge what is ok at the table for all roleplayers ever :rolleyes:

I refuse to believe it was a mistake. For him to simply not do it was Adam trying to do it for shits and giggles and thinking his SJWs credential would be some kind of protection against him being a truly fucking idiot. He knew what he was doing and said "fuck it I'm doing it anyway". No one is not that stupid without going out of their way to behave that way.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125647As if there are people who can judge what is ok at the table for all roleplayers ever

Again most tables will tell you to get lost and hit the road if you come in and try to sexually assault another player character either as a DM or player.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125647And, you know, you also can proactively talk to your GM before session one. So if player A nerver ever wants to have anything to do in play with anything close to sexual, tell your GM. Why should all the responsibility be on the GM?

Should a player be proactive and tell the dM what they consider acceptable and not acceptable yes. Mostly it is on the DM because they are the ones who should be asking for feedback on what is acceptable for the group. Not shifting the responsibility to the players. Or to put it another way your the person running the game do your fucking job properly and ask the players what they want to see in a campaign.

Heh I always assumed some things are off the table.  Sexual assault, torture scenes, mutilation,etc.  I dont bother asking if that is okay with anyone because common decency makes me assume it is NOT ok with most people.  As a GM I would never have any of that stuff, and that is with the people i play with whom i have known all of them more than 30 years.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1125651Not just a supporter/promoter, it appears Fox had a business dealing with some capacity with Koebel, as an "influencer" to run his games.

First, hilarious that Fox needs to pay people to run his game.

Second, funny how everyone who's had a Metoo-esque scandal in the hobby is a business associate of Fox, huh? He was working with Zak S too.

  Maybe we should start a timer to see how long before he too is proven "legit" as a self avowed male feminist?

Quote from: oggsmash;1125663Heh I always assumed some things are off the table.  Sexual assault, torture scenes, mutilation,etc.  I dont bother asking if that is okay with anyone because common decency makes me assume it is NOT ok with most people.  As a GM I would never have any of that stuff, and that is with the people i play with whom i have known all of them more than 30 years.

Agreed and seconded.

Never in my entire rpg lifespan so to speak has anyone at any of the table I ran or played were any of the abpve allowed or even remotely considered an acceptable topics at the gaming table. For the same reason common decency and common sense with most people.

There's no shortage of official and third-party D&D monsters whose shtick involves rape. It disgusts me because it is so tasteless and exploitative. The standard half-orc backstory where all half-orcs are rape-babies makes me queasy. It's doubly ironic when these publishers claim to be progressive.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1125655Things appear to be getting worse (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/fts4rd/adam_koebel_dungeon_worlds_far_verona_stream/fmd3lv6/) for Adam "I'm a male feminist and people I call misogynists should be blacklisted" Koebel!

Unless his ex-girlfriend there de-anonymises, I doubt her revelations will make it into The Narrative.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125669There's no shortage of official and third-party D&D monsters whose shtick involves rape. It disgusts me because it is so tasteless and exploitative. The standard half-orc backstory where all half-orcs are rape-babies makes me queasy. It's doubly ironic when these publishers claim to be progressive.

In dungeon fantasy for Gurps, they have a half ogre who they make sure to point out her dad liked his women big, so he married an ogre.   I never understood why they dont just remove half orcs and just make em orcs.

So I have no prior biases here (other than a vague irritation at constantly hearing about '-World' games...), and I've seen the actual play footage from TheQuartering, and the response from the player of Johnny (posted earlier in the thread).

I'd like to make a rather unusual observation. Not controversial, mind you, so you can relax.

I was having a rather hard time following the actual play event mostly because it was almost entirely Adam, the GM, talking. No real interaction with his players as he monologues through this long scene, which struck me as rather noteworthy.  If this wasn't a creepy sexual assault charged moment it would still have struck me as rather bad GMing on his part as it was very clearly something he wanted to do/have happen and he wasn't interested in engaging the players.  More on that in a bit...

This strikes me as a fundamental observation about the dynamics of RPGs. Player Characters are the default protagonists, teh actors rather than teh reactors of the setting. This isn't always entirely obvious, as many players are passive and reactive by nature and many GMs tend to assume the role of Actors in the setting for many understandable reasons (the GM is, by default, the most engaged player at the table, for example...).

While this certainly doesn't mean that everything in the game world is passively standing by waiting for the players to act (aren't they though? WHat's going on between sessions? Nearly universally: Nothing.), but in general the more the players are choosing to act, choosing their own destiny, the better off the game tends to be.  We have plenty of epithets for games where the player characters (and thus the players...) lack agency, such as Railroads... but do we really have any for games where the players have TOO MUCH agency?

So when the GM rambles on through a long ass (several minute) scene of an NPC doing something to a Player Character without really asking, or even pausing, to allow for any Player Feedback, its generally a bad example of GMing. Not one 'what do you do'? THe player is reduced to a passive participant, a mere witness to events happening to their character.

Add in the sexual aspect of it, and we have a perfect storm of shitty GMing, but honestly even stripped of that element, given the most banal of circumstances, that doesn't seem like a Table I'd like to sit at.

I've sat at plenty of tables where sexual 'themes' came into play. I've got a long standing anecdote of pulling into use a rulebook to reign my players in, in fact. This is the fundamental concept of 'Consent', if  you will... the players all consented to acting like randy teenagers and engaging in the most juvenile of play (and yes, sitting around a table with people talking about imaginary sex is very juvenile. Moreso at a mixed table where people who want to have sex can, in fact, just hook up... preferrably not at the table in the moment.  And yes, couples at the table are often terrible offenders in this juvenalia...).

In some regards I found 'Johnnys' idea of using the game table as a place to "learn to say no, especially to friends" to be utterly misguided and somewhat lamentable.  However, more to the point, her statement in that regards reveals a darker side to Adam's behavior. It wasn't that there was no 'session zero' discussion about what happened, its that he deliberately and consciously went against the very discussion that was had.    I believe it was also known that 'Johnny' had some unpleasant history in this regards (I'm no expert, I was just as happy not knowing who any of these people were...), thus doubling down (trippling?) on the wrongness.

To sum up:

As a GM, Adam essentially railroaded his player(s) into witnessing a scene in which they had no agency, no ability to act.
He chose to do this to a player that had explicitly stated a desire to have the opportunity to 'say no', and issues with trust.
He chose to do this to a player that (as far as I know/recall) already has some trauma regarding real-life sexual assault, and (misguided as it is) was attempting some sort of personal therapy via gaming
He chose to do this in as public venue as possible


I find it hard to believe he simply failed to 'read the room'. I absolutely cannot buy his blame shifting (which is of itself a example of DARVO, and therefore an indicator in its own right that this was malicious and deliberate).

I am made worse for knowing about any of this.

Quote from: S'mon;1125670Unless his ex-girlfriend there de-anonymises, I doubt her revelations will make it into The Narrative.

This just in! Ex has bad things to say about former boyfriend! Who could have seen that coming!!!?!?

What a load of crap.

Quote from: Trinculoisdead;1125677This just in! Ex has bad things to say about former boyfriend! Who could have seen that coming!!!?!?

What a load of crap.

Believe all Women!  C'mon, man! Its current Year!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1125655Things appear to be getting worse (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/fts4rd/adam_koebel_dungeon_worlds_far_verona_stream/fmd3lv6/) for Adam "I'm a male feminist and people I call misogynists should be blacklisted" Koebel!

These male feminists seem to have a fantastic sex life.


I am just saying.

This sure seems like a non-apology.

https://youtu.be/yYonGyQiILQ

Why is it so hard to admit when you screw up?  "I thought everyone was on-board with what we were doing.  I read it wrong.  Bottom line:  I completely f'd up and I'm sorry."  Reasonable people would be fine with that and you'd never satisfy the rest anyway.

This is sort of a place-holder... if, sometime in the next few days/weeks (whatever the pace of this sort of shitshow is...), Adam starts claiming 'Johnny' is at fault, say for lying about what she wanted in the campaign or something similar, I'll be right here in this post pointing out that I mentioned DARVO earlier...  Right now he's clearly on the Denial stage (DIdn't do nothin' wrong, minor miscommunications.. notice he blames the lack of X-cards in his apology...), next up he'll probably start attacking his detractors as Incels trying to destroy him because he's woke and they are nazis... and that will lead, eventually, to the flip.

I'd bet fifty internet bux we'll see this play out.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125582Koebel's style is to try and delve into player emotions and psychological states. If you have some phobia or whatever he wants to explore your feelings.

This is a terrible idea. And it's an obviously terrible idea to any healthy, normal person.

I don't subscribe to "Believe All Wahmens" (nor all Mens either) and exes are notoriously bad sources of information. If her accounts are true, she stayed with a serial cheater until the nasty breakup. While sad, it doesn't actually help her credibility.

Hell, it might not be Kno-balls' ex-girl either. We gotta remember it's the nasty anonymous internet where anybody can say anything and if the social media mob is primed, that narrative gets believed.

Yet more reasons to avoid Trial By Internet. For anyone. Including asshoes.

But watching the Woke eat their own is a hoot.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125669There's no shortage of official and third-party D&D monsters whose shtick involves rape.

Which official monsters?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125669The standard half-orc backstory where all half-orcs are rape-babies makes me queasy.

Agreed. Half-orcs in my campaigns were cursed humans. Some humans are just born with orc blood and despised by both humans and orcs. AKA, like Shakespeare's Caliban.

Quote from: oggsmash;1125672I never understood why they dont just remove half orcs and just make em orcs.

Agreed. Palladium Fantasy uses monster races and I've always preferred that approach.

Quote from: Spike;1125673I am made worse for knowing about any of this.

Amen.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1125701I don't subscribe to "Believe All Wahmens" (nor all Mens either) and exes are notoriously bad sources of information. If her accounts are true, she stayed with a serial cheater until the nasty breakup. While sad, it doesn't actually help her credibility.

I don't understand why people always say this shit every time someone calls out an abuser. Who do you think these people abuse? Do you think they don't exist? Someone has to date them. I guess you think all those women that accused Cosby or had to suck it up because of the industry after Weinstein was done with them were all making it up? Dating someone you realized was a mistake later isn't exactly unheard of, let alone getting taken advantage of.

I'm no liberal, "believe all women" is just suspending judgment, but the opposite of "believe NO women" is stupid too.

Now let's use our own judgment. Yes, she's an ex, so if this was before this fiasco, and Adam Koebel is in good standing, it'd be one thing. But Koebel already showed he thought this whole rape thing was fine and that reveals a certain mindset -- so is it that big a leap from this to that?

Quote from: Haffrung;1125692This is a terrible idea. And it's an obviously terrible idea to any healthy, normal person.

Yeah. It can work with the right group (like maybe a theater group or something) but most people aren't even interested since they just want to play the game itself. I guess this is a trend towards the kind of games Critical Role plays, where they like to focus on the emotions of it all.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125702I don't understand why people always say this shit every time someone calls out an abuser.

1) I worked as a divorce consultant for a decade. Exes (male and female) are unbelievably full of shit. "He said, she said" is garbage as evidence of anything.

2) It's the internet. I could say I'm your ex and you spend your free time finger banging Alzheimer's patients. On the right platform, to the right crowd, at the right moment, you'd become "mAcular the Finger Banger."

That's my problem with Trial By Internet.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125702Who do you think these people abuse?

I've spent huge hours in courtrooms hearing abuse testimony. My take? Most of the time, it takes two to tango. Humans are weird creatures, especially regarding sexuality. There's often a strange circular dance between Abuser and Abused that isn't as nice and neat as we'd like to believe.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125702I guess you think all those women that accused Cosby or had to suck it up because of the industry after Weinstein was done with them were all making it up?

I live in LA and I know Hollywood. Weinstein was a total shitbag (although a highly talented producer), but the PoundMeToo crocodile tears were so embarrassing. The "Innocent Actress" routine doesn't fit the nasty sharks in this town. Many men and women come to LA psychotically desperate for fame and a willingness to do anything (and I mean anything) for stardom is quite common. Hollywood is seriously fucked up. No surprise the world's porn capital is also LA.  

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125702But Koebel already showed he thought this whole rape thing was fine and that reveals a certain mindset -- so is it that big a leap from this to that?

You may be right. The mystery ex might be Truth Incarnate. We can't know either way. But a story like this at a moment like this is exactly what fires up the social media mobs. It doesn't take Shakespeare to craft a story that builds upon the existing drama to solidify believability.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1125707The mystery ex might be Truth Incarnate. We can't know either way. But a story like this at a moment like this is exactly what fires up the social media mobs.

This basically is not being reported - not on ENW, not on Tenkar's. Very different from when some ex-TSR luminary tries to flirt with Jessica Price or have an all-female D&D table and the RPG-mediasphere explodes in outrage.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1125655Things appear to be getting worse (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/fts4rd/adam_koebel_dungeon_worlds_far_verona_stream/fmd3lv6/) for Adam "I'm a male feminist and people I call misogynists should be blacklisted" Koebel!

Oh my god, lol.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1125651Not just a supporter/promoter, it appears Fox had a business dealing with some capacity with Koebel, as an "influencer" to run his games.

First, hilarious that Fox needs to pay people to run his game.

Second, funny how everyone who's had a Metoo-esque scandal in the hobby is a business associate of Fox, huh? He was working with Zak S too.

Didn't you make some prediction as to Fox himself getting involved in some sort of scandal?

Quote from: Almost_Useless;1125685This sure seems like a non-apology.

https://youtu.be/yYonGyQiILQ

Why is it so hard to admit when you screw up?  "I thought everyone was on-board with what we were doing.  I read it wrong.  Bottom line:  I completely f'd up and I'm sorry."  Reasonable people would be fine with that and you'd never satisfy the rest anyway.

Straight-up admitting they made a mistake and they're sorry is impossible for the narcissistically-inclined. If things get really bad there will usually be some kind of sob story where they play the victim.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1125701Yet more reasons to avoid Trial By Internet. For anyone. Including asshoes.

Funny you should say that; I know of at least one GI specialist (proctologist) that's exploring telemedicine right now. I think he's probably just trying to figure out how to mesh his work with his fascination for anal porn.

I read the reddit comments about the play session and imagined Adam tormenting his players and laughing insidiously. When I finally watched the video I was greatly disappointed (because I do love me some drama). What I saw was Adam make a Futurama style robot orgasm joke that fell flat. And as it was falling flat he laughed like some people do when they feel awkward about their joke bombing.  I don't know. To me this seemed like a non-event. I imagine it's drawing a lot of attention because of who hhe is and because he is an adamant sjw. To be honest the in play victim didn't seem all that bothered by it at the moment (blondie yes). I'm guesing her sjw friends got in her ear after the session and informed her why she should be offended and quit the show.
In the past I've enjoyed his gming advice and ideas on game design, despite the costume he wears and what it represents. It will be interesting to see if the left pardon him.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125669There's no shortage of official and third-party D&D monsters whose shtick involves rape. It disgusts me because it is so tasteless and exploitative. The standard half-orc backstory where all half-orcs are rape-babies makes me queasy. It's doubly ironic when these publishers claim to be progressive.

This question is actually more interesting and relevant than the Koebel stuff, so I am opening a new thread for it.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125620Meh...the usual massive overreaction of all the special snowflake morons that now are part of our hobby. Was it a good idea what Adam did? No, not if he admits that they didn't have a real "session zero" talk. But honestly, watch that scene...if this is your definition of rape, you are insulting all human beings who ever really got raped. This is blown waaaay out of proportion.

What i find more damning is how full on black&white-and-nothing-else people are...no one is ever allowed to make a mistake...these SJW just burn you down for good. No chance of redemption EVER. And they really think they are good people?! With that attitude? Fucking hypocrites, all of them.
The amount of folks who really think that they are on moral highground is appalling.

I fully agree with this.

I mean, unless you are living some weird inseparable and vicarious bond with your own PC, ala Tom Hanks in the movie "Mazes and Monsters" (and if anyone is then they legitimately need to seek professional help), then having a robot engineer insert a robot module in your system that makes you feel an orgasm for the first time shouldn't leave you ruined as a human being and questioning if the DM is actually your real-life friend.

As a matter of fact, I think that entire scenario is so lame that I can't even fathom why Adam introduced it. I wasn't particularly funny or "hot" (I don't know what this group is into). But to act like they, as a group, couldn't just tell Adam to STFU / retcon and keep gaming is beyond me.

And this is coming from a guy who has never been involved in any TTRPG where any player or PC has ever had an orgasm or sex in a gaming session. So it's not like I'm "into" whatever Adam was doing.

The only thing for me is why NONE of the other players said anything at the time of the incident. They looked uncomfortable and unhappy yet decided not to call him out on his behavior. It was "pass the buck let someone else say something". I still think Adam was a dumbass for putting that in as it's something that is hard to do properly and usually not welcome at the table. Granted the other players quit after the session why not do something about it in real time.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125702I don't understand why people always say this shit every time someone calls out an abuser. Who do you think these people abuse? Do you think they don't exist? Someone has to date them. I guess you think all those women that accused Cosby or had to suck it up because of the industry after Weinstein was done with them were all making it up? Dating someone you realized was a mistake later isn't exactly unheard of, let alone getting taken advantage of.

I'm no liberal, "believe all women" is just suspending judgment, but the opposite of "believe NO women" is stupid too.

Now let's use our own judgment. Yes, she's an ex, so if this was before this fiasco, and Adam Koebel is in good standing, it'd be one thing. But Koebel already showed he thought this whole rape thing was fine and that reveals a certain mindset -- so is it that big a leap from this to that?

Well, right now he's provably a dumbass at minimum and possibly a creep, based on public video evidence. This reddit post serves to say "he's consistently a creep" and escalate it to "and also an abuser". I think it is a significant step to go from "idiot says stupid things" to "asshole abuses girlfriend". To the extent that it doesn't seem like a big change, that concerns me: it means a thought- or speech-"wrongdoing" escalates to evidence for and the consequences of a much more severe transgression, and on the basis of an anonymous internet account only.

Abusers do get dates, sadly, and abuse is real and serious. But people like Aziz Ansari also get anonymously accused of being an abuser. Despite the presence of a clear ulterior motive for these accusations, Nolan Bushnell was publicly condemned and suffered over anonymous, evidence-light or evidence-free accusations of abuse (it's been a while) that stuck even though the women who worked with him came forward to support him under their real names.

Ultimately, trial by internet and/or mob is really stupid, not least because humans are terrible at it. Ulterior motives do exist, and sometimes opportunities are a chance to speak up for someone who has been silent -- and sometimes they are an opportunity to pile on for ulterior reasons. As tempting as it is to engage in, there's a reason that the rule of law and as-impartial-as-possible, evidence-based judgment has been such a boon to human society. I worry at how keen we seem to be to give that up.

(LOL I would be so banned from RPG.net for this, wouldn't I)

This is why I don't care if someone is called a Nazi or a rapist or an abuser. Shit always turns out to be some gossip nonsense, and I'll be fucked if I sit through a bunch of lame session videos and their resultant commentaries to try and sort this mess out. I've got better things to do, like pick my nose with a razor blade.

Was the rape scene actually rape? Well, it involves someone who knows nothing about sex being tricked into sex by someone who does. I think the reason why the girl player was creeped out is that it reminded her of being a child being preyed upon by a creeper, which I'm sure she probably experienced.

This reminds me of a movie that I recently saw, Satanic Panic (on Shudder), which turned out to be quite a pleasant surprise, especially given that I am a harsh critic. A good story, a good mythology, is one that contains the truth. As humans we have been watching ourselves for thousands of years, and our stories reflect what we see in ourselves.

This movie was a horror/comedy about a pizza delivery girl who runs afoul of a group of Satanists looking for a virgin to bear their master's devil spawn. Near the end of the movie she is raped by a demon creature. Predictably, the cult's scheme goes horribly wrong (but I'm not telling why so as not to spoil the story), and it involves mass slaughter and fluffy bunnies. The movie ends in a very satisfying way.

What I like about this movie is that its creators understand the horror genre, they understand their audience (very rare these days), and they understand black comedy, which isn't farce, but a very witty and perverse way of observing the horror inherent in reality.

Two points come to mind: The way that Koebel's scheme blows up in his face in the live stream is echoed in the movie -- he got fluffy bunnies instead of what he was expecting. And the robot rape is reflected in the movie with the rape of the protagonist during the cult's Satanic ritual, underscoring the antisocial nature of evil.

I can totally see the scene in this movie happening in an AD&D game, especially with the prevalence of evil cults. In fact, that is the scene depicted on the cover of Eldritch Wizardry, Dungeons & Dragons Suplement III. This isn't voyeurism, but a re-telling of ancient truths. There is an alignment system which makes clear the distinction between good and evil, altruism and psychopathy. There is no murky moral relativism.

As with all male feminists, Koebel is a creepy Satanic guy. He does creepy Satanic stuff. I have no problem with that.

What I have a problem with is these girls who grow up in the bubble of feminism and hang out with these creepy guys and then act surprised when they do creepy things. You buy the ticket, you ride the ride. She bought the ticket. She didn't like the ride.

QuoteJudi Ross: "Oh my god. You're like a big retarded baby. My mom and her butt buddies are booty calling Baphoment, and we're gonna hide in here like scared little bitches because they can turn your liver into fire ants. If they find us, they're not gonna kill us- they're gonna do shit that you can't comprehend. And they're not going to stop until you're strapped naked to a barbed wire altar with a fifteen foot beast of Gehenna and his double pronged demon dong walking around your cooch chute like it's a revolving door of ground beef."

...

Samantha 'Sam' Craft: "I should stop drinking."

Judi Ross: "You really wanna face this shit sober?"

-- Satanic Panic (2019)

Quote from: RPGPundit;1125655Things appear to be getting worse (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/fts4rd/adam_koebel_dungeon_worlds_far_verona_stream/fmd3lv6/) for Adam "I'm a male feminist and people I call misogynists should be blacklisted" Koebel!

Oof. I had a feeling there were going to be skeletons in his closet...

I know nothing about this Adam fellow, other than that the RPG on my shelf turned out to be 99% sound and fury, signifying nothing, but there's a useful rule of thumb that applies to public figures:

Feminist on the streets, predator in the sheets.

Quote from: sureshot;1125729The only thing for me is why NONE of the other players said anything at the time of the incident.

This has happened to me before; where I was didn't speak up because I was surprised it was actually happening and wasn't sure where it was heading until after it had finished. But, in effect, the players used their one unstoppable game power which is to not come back to the game. Whether they were pressured into it or just had had enough of the DM's crap we don't know but I'll assume that the players weren't having much fun in the game to begin with to leave so easily.

To me this just illustrates why the "X-Card" system is useless. All it does is encourage to DM to do whatever he want up until the point that the player raises the card. Without that as a crutch, DM will need to be constantly gauging reactions to see when he is headed in the wrong direction.

I watched Eastman's video on why she quit, but I haven't gone over other details so I don't have any opinion yet on the specific game and people. So for now I'm just commenting about issues rather than specifics.

Quote from: sureshotThe only thing for me is why NONE of the other players said anything at the time of the incident.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1125822This has happened to me before; where I was didn't speak up because I was surprised it was actually happening and wasn't sure where it was heading until after it had finished. But, in effect, the players used their one unstoppable game power which is to not come back to the game. Whether they were pressured into it or just had had enough of the DM's crap we don't know but I'll assume that the players weren't having much fun in the game to begin with to leave so easily.

Yeah, that's happened to me before as well. I've had GMs pull crap that made me want to quit the game -- but I didn't stand up at the table and immediately confront them over it. I think there's a strong bias against making a scene at the table, and I'm not sure it would do much good if one did have a confrontation. I suspect it would likely just make the conflict worse.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1125822To me this just illustrates why the "X-Card" system is useless. All it does is encourage to DM to do whatever he want up until the point that the player raises the card. Without that as a crutch, DM will need to be constantly gauging reactions to see when he is headed in the wrong direction.

I agree that the card doesn't replace assessing the players, though to be fair a GM can have the card and also gauge reactions.

Quote from: Spike;1125687notice he blames the lack of X-cards in his apology...), .

I really, really, hope Koebel doubles down on the lack of X-cards being used by his players.

The SJW's are desperate to impose the X-Card on the hobby. And if Koebel doubles down on its lack of use it puts them in a tough spot.

By their own standards; lack of use of the X-Card should be a get out of jail free pass for Koebel. But also by their own standards; they really can't let him get a free pass on this.

I hope he doubles down so we can see the mental gymnastics they use to justify having their cake and eating their own too...

Quote from: jhkim;1125825....
I agree that the card doesn't replace assessing the players, though to be fair a GM can have the card and also gauge reactions.

The X-Card is not needed at all, because: How hard is it to not have the rapey or a creepy sex encounter on a PC in a game?

WTF? Why does anyone go there? In my sunday group 3 out of the 5 players are female. It's just not that hard to leave some things out of a game. Why would you do that?

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1125771...
What I have a problem with is these girls who grow up in the bubble of feminism and hang out with these creepy guys and then act surprised when they do creepy things. .

This is a real issue. The brainwashing is strong in feminism.

Good thread with lots of useful commentary.  I hadn't seen that reddit post before.  

I blogged about it.  TL;DR: I don't think what Adam did in the game was all that bad.  However, he seems to be an ass-hat for different reasons.  If you're curious to read the whole thing, here's a link: https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/04/adam-koebel-sexual-assault-scandal.html

VS

Didn't I make this point elsewhere?

If your game involves mature/disturbing themes, you talk about it up front before the game starts. 'Hi, we're playing Unknown Armies, expect to get skullfucked at some point' might be slightly crass, but I'd be a lot happier as a player if it wasn't sprung on me two sessions in.

I'm scouring my memories for any record of this sort of thing happening in any of MY games, and the closest I can come to was a Shadowrun game where my male dwarf rigger hooked up with a female Urban Brawl champion by accident (long story). This was played primarily for laughs and no 'mature' themes entered into it. I guess my rigger liked his ladies tough and muscular too :)

I'm inclined to forgive the other players for not speaking up; sometimes you don't realize the train wreck is happening until the bits stop hitting the ground. But Mr. Koebel needs to have a long sit down of mental introspection about cramming his creepy magical realm ideas into his games.

Quote from: Jaeger;1125831The X-Card is not needed at all, because: How hard is it to not have the rapey or a creepy sex encounter on a PC in a game?

WTF? Why does anyone go there? In my sunday group 3 out of the 5 players are female. It's just not that hard to leave some things out of a game. Why would you do that?

THIS, so much this.

One of the better Labyrinth Lord groups I ever had included a lesbian playing an Elf. She role-played her elf becoming attracted to an NPC elf. In game, it was two beautiful elf maidens exploring their attraction to each other. In Real Life, it was small tom-boyish lesbian and a fat bearded graying straight man, so the in character romance never got too deep or graphic because I didn't want to creep her out and lose one of my best Players. It didn't take rocket science to figure out the best way to handle the situation, just a little application of common sense.

Quote from: jeff37923;1125853THIS, so much this.

One of the better Labyrinth Lord groups I ever had included a lesbian playing an Elf. She role-played her elf becoming attracted to an NPC elf. In game, it was two beautiful elf maidens exploring their attraction to each other. ... so the in character romance never got too deep or graphic .... It didn't take rocket science to figure out the best way to handle the situation, just a little application of common sense.

Exactly.

I my current star wars game on of the female players/PC's is perusing a romantic angle.

Fading to black at certain moments is not that hard.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125596Do people get over trauma without counseling.

People will sometimes go to counseling if they can't get over a trauma.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1125822But, in effect, the players used their one unstoppable game power which is to not come back to the game.

Exactly! THIS is the ONLY player's "safety tool" that matters. Nobody should waste their valuable leisure time at a game where they are not having fun. Walk da fuck away.

And yet again, every GM needs to be honest and forthright in Session Zero to save lots of misunderstanding, confusion and upset down the line.

Quote from: Jaeger;1125859Fading to black at certain moments is not that hard.

It's pretty heavy live!
[video=youtube;6bFbE8KdeVw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFbE8KdeVw[/youtube]

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1125771As with all male feminists, Koebel is a creepy Satanic guy. He does creepy Satanic stuff. I have no problem with that.

Wtf?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1125864Exactly! THIS is the ONLY player's "safety tool" that matters. Nobody should waste their valuable leisure time at a game where they are not having fun. Walk da fuck away.

And yet again, every GM needs to be honest and forthright in Session Zero to save lots of misunderstanding, confusion and upset down the line.




It's pretty heavy live!
[video=youtube;6bFbE8KdeVw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFbE8KdeVw[/youtube]

No one but me, can save myself; for it's too late.
Now I can't think; think why I should even try.
Yesterday seems; seems that it never existed.
Death greets me warm; now I will just say goodbye.
Goodbye....

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125702I don't understand why people always say this shit every time someone calls out an abuser.

Because there has been too many lying bitches.  Too many innocent men with actual good character got fucked and utterly destoryed by filthy backstabbing cunts.  That is why I don't trust these stories.  Too many victims in the witch hunt.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1125730(LOL I would be so banned from RPG.net for this, wouldn't I)

Yes you would.  Within a heart beat.

That was difficult to watch.

Even without the creepy sexual assault context it would be bad DMing. (The entire group quit, QED.) Adam seems to railroad situations in a way I wouldn't feel comfortable with as a DM. I don't know if that's a problem with Adam's style or the system since  I've not watched much of his DMing nor have I any experience with Genesys. But having watched a bit more of the episode it does seem that Rocket the 'sexy mechanic' is a self insert rather than an improvised random NPC with their own desires. Adam is as excited as he narrates the action as he is in character. He also concludes the stream with the result of the assault rather than stopping two seconds earlier with the threat of an assault which would have been far better dramatically; even without hindsight. As a DM he publicly broke the trust of his players. It will take him a long time to rebuild that.

I think the idea that, since this is a robot character, its not sexual assault (while probably correct within the context of the game world's legal system) is a very weak argument. As a player, and even as a viewer of the stream, you are clearly meant to empathise with the Johnny character as a  conscious being. So even if the Johnny character might not understand the experience as a sexual assault, just as a child or someone with intellectual disabilities might not, as a player or viewer of the stream there is no ambiguity in this NPC's motivations and actions. I don't think I've ever seen a clearer example broadcast. Certainly this is a far clearer case than the Kevin Rolfe one last year.

I don't think 'safety protocols' would have helped either. I could see them working in a convention context or tournament game, but in a public livestream, content requiring such things shouldn't even be considered. The fact that none of the players thought to call a time-out, demonstrates that they were totally frozen in the headlights of this car crash. And I can imagine many groups behaving in the same way. You either freeze or you act. It's unfortunate that there wasn't at least one player in the group with the confidence to break Adam's spell over them. Watching it, felt like watching a confidence trick on the players.

That's not to say there's no room in the game for this kind of encounter. In a different situation, with a different group, I'm sure it wouldn't have caused an issue. Certainly, dramatically, it can work. I'm thinking of the scene in Pulp Fiction which works well in both the plot and as character development. Sadly, this did neither.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1126020Because there has been too many lying bitches.  Too many innocent men with actual good character got fucked and utterly destoryed by filthy backstabbing cunts.  That is why I don't trust these stories.  Too many victims in the witch hunt.

We need to bring back calumny as a criminal charge. Make this kind of false accusation and the hammer comes down on you.

Great publicity for WotC, Twitch and Roll20.

"Their little wild man just jumped the shark!!!"

Everybody & their mother'll watch that stupid video. Look at you goofballs debating one of the worst GMs anyone's ever seen.

Matt Mercer? TERRIBLE GM. Admits he doesn't know the rules to games and I mean, he's an actor paid to pretend to play D&D. But -- Mercer makes Koebel look retarded & confused.

It was staged. They weren't offended just pretending to be because if we're pretending to play a pretend game why can't we pretend to be anything? "Huzzah! I elect to pretend offense in defense of my duly-offended defender! How sayest thou?"

If WotC, Roll20 and Twitch don't drop Koebel down an elevator shaft, it's fixed. No. Their Boy'll get some Time-Off, then it's back to business.

It's stupid shit like this that makes the "gaming community" a shitshow. Now it's a monetized meta-gaming reality shitshow for the lowest common denominators in the field, sucking up to the emotionally and mentally challenged.

Narcissistic personality disorder run amok.

I am continually baffled by people actually wanting to watch other people play RPGs, much less paying for the privilege....



... I may be a weirdo, though. When I was a child I admitted to being baffled (as I remain to this day) why people enjoy watching other people play sports, rather than playing themselves.  Sure, I enjoy a 'greatest hits compliation' of NFL tackles as much as the next guy, but I'm not planning to watch an entire season of other people playing the game to get there.  Of course if D&D streaming is the new Football for Our Time, I may very well need to stop the planet and get off this ride, because... damn that's lame.

Quote from: Spike;1126083I am continually baffled by people actually wanting to watch other people play RPGs, much less paying for the privilege....



... I may be a weirdo, though. When I was a child I admitted to being baffled (as I remain to this day) why people enjoy watching other people play sports, rather than playing themselves.  Sure, I enjoy a 'greatest hits compliation' of NFL tackles as much as the next guy, but I'm not planning to watch an entire season of other people playing the game to get there.  Of course if D&D streaming is the new Football for Our Time, I may very well need to stop the planet and get off this ride, because... damn that's lame.

It's "gaming" for people that don't actually game. And for those that do and believe "this" is good gaming - then it's milquetoast casual-slob gaming that care more about their brand of tribal performative virtue signaling as part of the act than the gaming itself.

It's the "Human-Centipede" of gaming. Thanks... but I'll go play "Goodfellas".

Quote from: Spike;1126083I am continually baffled by people actually wanting to watch other people play RPGs, much less paying for the privilege....



... I may be a weirdo, though. When I was a child I admitted to being baffled (as I remain to this day) why people enjoy watching other people play sports, rather than playing themselves.  Sure, I enjoy a 'greatest hits compliation' of NFL tackles as much as the next guy, but I'm not planning to watch an entire season of other people playing the game to get there.  Of course if D&D streaming is the new Football for Our Time, I may very well need to stop the planet and get off this ride, because... damn that's lame.

There is an astronomical difference between watching sports and watching someone play D&D ; it's not even close. I went to a big name college football school, and I can tell you there's nothing like being in the stands when your rival shows up. Contrast this with watching intramural flag football. Who literally gives a fuck? Something fun to do for sure, but a spectator event it surely is not. The difference is that while very few of us can play college football (and much, much less pro), we can all go out in the backyard and toss around a football during Thanksgiving dinner. If I livestreamed a Thanksgiving game, would anyone actually be interested? Maybe some people, and we call them losers.

D&D is definitely intramural football. Anyone who wants to watch other people do something they could do RIGHT NOW is just a lazy idiot. Now, I'm not saying you cannot watch a play-through to see how it's done; that's an entirely different thing. Maybe you want to learn how to DM, or understand how playing the game actually works, I get it. But if you're using it as an actual source of entertainment, you probably need to get a life.

Quote from: Brad;1126087There is an astronomical difference between watching sports and watching someone play D&D ; it's not even close. I went to a big name college football school, and I can tell you there's nothing like being in the stands when your rival shows up. Contrast this with watching intramural flag football. Who literally gives a fuck? Something fun to do for sure, but a spectator event it surely is not. The difference is that while very few of us can play college football (and much, much less pro), we can all go out in the backyard and toss around a football during Thanksgiving dinner. If I livestreamed a Thanksgiving game, would anyone actually be interested? Maybe some people, and we call them losers.

D&D is definitely intramural football. Anyone who wants to watch other people do something they could do RIGHT NOW is just a lazy idiot. Now, I'm not saying you cannot watch a play-through to see how it's done; that's an entirely different thing. Maybe you want to learn how to DM, or understand how playing the game actually works, I get it. But if you're using it as an actual source of entertainment, you probably need to get a life.

This & that which came before via Electronic Stimulation.

You tune in to these stream and they tell you "Yeah, we don't know the rules, so all you rules-lawyers? BACK OFF! Rules are for lames, maaaaan "

So. What am me watching? A group of desperate hipsters pretending to pretend playing an RPG.

Remember Koebel's desperate giggling during his master class GM presentation? Yeah. That's the dirge of the end of quality tabletop gaming, live.

These are the children of Vincent Baker (perv) and Ron Edwards (megalomaniac). I'd wager a stack ($1000) that any GM here could easily humble Koebel, Mercer or Colville at an Iron GM event. The Story game crowd aren't in it for quality gamesmanship.

They're in it for the 'likes'. But, this too shall pass.

Quote from: Brad;1126087Now, I'm not saying you cannot watch a play-through to see how it's done; that's an entirely different thing. Maybe you want to learn how to DM, or understand how playing the game actually works, I get it.

I don't think anyone should be watching this guy to learn how to DM.

Quote from: mightybrain;1126099I don't think anyone should be watching this guy to learn how to DM.

Well, sometimes observation is more useful in learning what not to do.  Though you'd hope with some bad choices that most people could guess for themselves without the need of an example.

There's plenty of fun to be had with streams and watching people play. It's what got me into D&D in the first place -- I saw Chris Perkins running 4e for Robot Chicken's writers and thought: "I can do this."

Shocking stuff indeed. Robot-on-robot rape when her male character was expecting an upgrade like Windows 95? The most shockin part is how many subscribers these two vaginas have. Murder, acts of torture, plundering corpses, extreme violence is ok in rpgs, but rape is a no no? What kind of a name is Elspeth anyway? I guess I'll chalk it up to parents with dyslexia. She doesn't even have any rpg content on her channel, but she has a makeup routine video. Voice actor. Yes...As for the GM or whatever. He's got the Seattle look. He's the kind of unisex face that pops up when I search Unsplash for CC0 images of men with beards when I'm really out for salty seamen types.

Welcome aboard Groom of the Stool!!

Awesome name! You'll be a great addition to our most Wretched Hive of Scum & Villainy!!

Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1126163... images of men with beards when I'm really out for salty seamen types.

I'm happy to forward some royalty-free headshots of my salty-bearded Seattle face. I can't be a pirate in real life (too many health conditions) but surely I would love to be PLAYED as a pirate somewhere!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1126172Welcome aboard Groom of the Stool!!

Awesome name! You'll be a great addition to our most Wretched Hive of Scum & Villainy!!

I aim to serve. Ready when you are, Sire.

Quote from: trechriron;1126173I'm happy to forward some royalty-free headshots of my salty-bearded Seattle face. I can't be a pirate in real life (too many health conditions) but surely I would love to be PLAYED as a pirate somewhere!

Dost thou smoke a pipe in any picture?

Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1126180Dost thou smoke a pipe in any picture?

I don't. Maybe I should start...

Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1126163Murder, acts of torture, plundering corpses, extreme violence is ok in rpgs, but rape is a no no?

All of these are fine with the right group in a private game. With a public stream e-celeb game where many of their subscribers will be children, the default assumption for a content rating should be E like a Saturday morning cartoon. Cartoon violence is fine, cartoon sexual assault is a no no. I'm surprised this even needs explaining.

Quote from: mightybrain;1126209All of these are fine with the right group in a private game. With a public stream e-celeb game where many of their subscribers will be children, the default assumption for a content rating should be E like a Saturday morning cartoon. Cartoon violence is fine, cartoon sexual assault is a no no. I'm surprised this even needs explaining.

I kind of makes me wonder the nature of the person who needs to be told any kind of sexual assault is a no-no. If you need to be told it's a bad thing and not to be allowed at most tables I would say at least 90% if not more than it's telling to me at least what kind of person one is.

Quote from: mightybrain;1126209All of these are fine with the right group in a private game. With a public stream e-celeb game where many of their subscribers will be children, the default assumption for a content rating should be E like a Saturday morning cartoon. Cartoon violence is fine, cartoon sexual assault is a no no. I'm surprised this even needs explaining.

I'm surprised so many see this as sexual assault.  To me it came off as a bad Futurama gag.

Quote from: rgalex;1126212I'm surprised so many see this as sexual assault.  To me it came off as a bad Futurama gag.

Matt Groening had Homer Simpson raped by a panda.

Quote from: mightybrain;1126209All of these are fine with the right group in a private game. With a public stream e-celeb game where many of their subscribers will be children, the default assumption for a content rating should be E like a Saturday morning cartoon. Cartoon violence is fine, cartoon sexual assault is a no no. I'm surprised this even needs explaining.

Isn't his channel for paying subscribers? And he has run Zweihänder too. Isn't that supposed to be grim like it says on the cover? I began playing when I was 12 and there was ALOT of violence and great rejoicing for each hacked off limb.

Quote from: sureshot;1126211I kind of makes me wonder the nature of the person who needs to be told any kind of sexual assault is a no-no. If you need to be told it's a bad thing and not to be allowed at most tables I would say at least 90% if not more than it's telling to me at least what kind of person one is.

What would Deliverance be without the rape scene? Rob Roy? Death Wish? What would the Golden horde be if they didn't herd off the women like cattle? Not everyone is playing scenarios from My Little Pony the RPG you know?

Quote from: S'mon;1126215Matt Groening had Homer Simpson raped by a panda.

It is implied as a joke but not explicitly shown. They literally draw a curtain over the scene. Which is another thing Adam could have done instead of trying to come up with a detailed description of a robot orgasm.

Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1126224Isn't his channel for paying subscribers?

He does have content only for subscribers, but the Far Verona game ends up on YouTube open to anyone.

Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1126224I began playing when I was 12 and there was ALOT of violence and great rejoicing for each hacked off limb.

No so much explicit sexual assault though, right?

Quote from: Spike;1126083I am continually baffled by people actually wanting to watch other people play RPGs, much less paying for the privilege....

... I may be a weirdo, though. When I was a child I admitted to being baffled (as I remain to this day) why people enjoy watching other people play sports, rather than playing themselves. Sure, I enjoy a 'greatest hits compliation' of NFL tackles as much as the next guy, but I'm not planning to watch an entire season of other people playing the game to get there. Of course if D&D streaming is the new Football for Our Time, I may very well need to stop the planet and get off this ride, because... damn that's lame.

When I got into Warmachine (ver 2) I watched a lot of youtube games because I wanted to familiarize myself with the rules and tactics. I carried that over to when I started X-Wing miniatures, especially since I go to competitive tournaments.
While it's a little different, I'm watching primarily to improve my own game, I kinda sorta get people who watch sports now.

I think the competitive nature is what puts it over the top. I have no interest in watching people play D&D.

Quote from: tenbones;1126084It's "gaming" for people that don't actually game. And for those that do and believe "this" is good gaming - then it's milquetoast casual-slob gaming that care more about their brand of tribal performative virtue signaling as part of the act than the gaming itself.

It's the "Human-Centipede" of gaming. Thanks... but I'll go play "Goodfellas".

Quote from: Brad;1126087D&D is definitely intramural football. Anyone who wants to watch other people do something they could do RIGHT NOW is just a lazy idiot. Now, I'm not saying you cannot watch a play-through to see how it's done; that's an entirely different thing. Maybe you want to learn how to DM, or understand how playing the game actually works, I get it. But if you're using it as an actual source of entertainment, you probably need to get a life.

I've seriously tried to watch things like Critical Roll. I've done it out of curiosity when it took off, I've done it because a then girlfriend insisted I'd love it, I've done it again just because I thought "Maybe I was in the wrong mindset." I've gone into it every time with expectations below zero but an honest desire to try and 'get it', to grasp why people love this thing. Every single time I've come away after maybe twenty minutes. I've watched from the start of campaigns, I've skipped past the shilling, I tried to skip to when they properly play and don't just joke around with one another. Not once has it ever actually clicked with me for all my efforts. There's just something immensely dull about watching others try to play RPGs, especially when any actual gaming is interrupted for a quip or the group roaring and smacking one another on the shoulders.

I think the closest to success I ever got was the World of Warcraft tie-in with Terry Crews, but it had a painfully predictable outcome (Horde wins in a scripted WoW tie-in, what a shock). Troy Baker and Crews appeared to be trying to take the game somewhat seriously at least, whilst the rest LolSoRandom'ed through it. Even that though I mostly just jumped ahead through because I could almost feel myself falling asleep. Other times I've looked up videos of systems I've yet to play or am reading through the rulebook of, but even those tend I tend to close the tab after ten minutes.

Maybe it's the RPG circle I've surrounded myself with, but my usual players and those who've dipped in now and again usually share somewhat similar opinions on it. Some like it more (and less) than others, but none of them really watch it or claim to be fans. Meanwhile the players I've had who're most enthusiastic about CR are those who're insufferably flakey and noncommittal. Is it all a coincidence? It may well be, but it's experience enough to be very sceptical of the type of people who's interest in 'gaming' extends as far as Critical Roll as their eyes usually glaze over as soon as anything involving character sheets, rolling dice and indeed roleplaying rears its head.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1126241When I got into Warmachine (ver 2)

Ah, I see you're a man of culture.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1126245Meanwhile the players I've had who're most enthusiastic about CR are those who're insufferably flakey and noncommittal. Is it all a coincidence? It may well be, but it's experience enough to be very sceptical of the type of people who's interest in 'gaming' extends as far as Critical Roll as their eyes usually glaze over as soon as anything involving character sheets, rolling dice and indeed roleplaying rears its head.

Hmmm, that's an interesting comment. Sounds like they just want to watch a movie instead of play a game. Zero investment but want to feel like they're participating in something.

Quote from: mightybrain;1126238He does have content only for subscribers, but the Far Verona game ends up on YouTube open to anyone.



No so much explicit sexual assault though, right?

And Youtube is a safe haven for people who don't want to see violence or rape scenes, naturally. Oh, the rape scene from Deliverance is there for any 13 year old to watch without having an account.

There wasn't much sexual assault back then no, because the hacking of limbs was more fun. But there was a case of indecent exposure on the table of an inn where the PC got his junk stuck with a fork.

Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1126250And Youtube is a safe haven for people who don't want to see violence or rape scenes, naturally. Oh, the rape scene from Deliverance is there for any 13 year old to watch without having an account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFKdAhi_yc0

If you're logged in you can watch it. If you log out it says log in to confirm your age. Deliverance is an 18 rated movie.

Imagine a culture of lies. Transforming what was into what isn't.

Stand against the Storygames. Point out their deception.

"It is not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger." - David Hume

I watched the video of the "assault" and Korbel (kobel?  whatever) is a thoroughly shit GM.  

I'd take offense at just how bad a DM he is.

Quote from: mightybrain;1126274https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFKdAhi_yc0

If you're logged in you can watch it. If you log out it says log in to confirm your age. Deliverance is an 18 rated movie.

Here it is, full scene, no log in required. Squeal like a pig!

Quote from: Snark Knight;1126245Ah, I see you're a man of culture.

:D I miss Warmachine. My group fell apart shortly before version 3, and by then I had moved on to X-Wing Miniatures. But I had a lot of fun with it.

I like that Koebel is revealed more savage animal asshole than Zak S.

Fitting.

Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1126291Here it is, full scene, no log in required. Squeal like a pig!

Log in is required. If you see the video thumbnail and not a blank screen it's because you are already logged in.

If you look in the description it says:  Notice Age-restricted video (based on Community Guidelines)

And if you click on the link, it takes you to the guideline that makes it age restricted:

Quote from: YouTube Community GuidelinesAge-restricted content

Sometimes content doesn't violate our policies, but it may not be appropriate for all audiences. In these cases, our review team will place an age restriction on the video, or remove the thumbnail, when we're notified of the content.

Age-restricted videos are not visible to users who are logged out, are under 18 years of age or have Restricted Mode enabled.
What will result in an age restriction

Here are some of the things we consider for age restriction:

    Vulgar language
    Violence and disturbing imagery
    Nudity and sexually suggestive content
    Portrayal of harmful or dangerous activities

If you believe that we made a mistake, you can appeal the age restriction.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1126284I watched the video of the "assault" and Korbel (kobel?  whatever) is a thoroughly shit GM.  

I'd take offense at just how bad a DM he is.

I think that's probably at the root of why the group quit. The sleazy aspect makes a good headline, but underneath the problem is that he betrayed the trust of his players. He's clearly a frustrated show runner. He describes the situations in terms of scenes and fades and pans. He had his scene planned out and railroaded the characters into it. It's probably not the first time he's done it, but maybe the first time his players noticed due to his blatant use of DM fiat to hit on a PC.

Does anyone have a link to the specific scene in the video? I want to see what this DMing people are talking about is.

I believe it was Shasarak who already mentioned this, but while they may be scumbags, these Male Feminists sure know how to have a good time in bed! Call for the cancellations, tumblrize yourself, adorn yourself in virtues (and/or pink hair), and profit.

Quote from: Melan;1125584Nah. There is  clear pattern: people who do a lot of moral grandstanding commonly prove to be massive phonies with skeletons in their closet (if not a full cemetery in the basement). The "family values" politico discovered with a small harem; the fire-and-brimstones preacher caught with a suspiciously young boy; the beloved philanthropist who steals from the community and treats his staff like dirt - it is a story for the ages. These are just the same hypocrites as the religious right, except with pink hair, and slightly less drugs and sodomy.

He may or may not have written great games/gaming advice - that's an art/artist thing.

(puts on professor hat) In my experience male feminists come in two variants: the creepy slimy variety, and the useful idiot variety :D

Quote from: mightybrain;1126314Log in is required. If you see the video thumbnail and not a blank screen it's because you are already logged in.

If you look in the description it says:  Notice Age-restricted video (based on Community Guidelines)

And if you click on the link, it takes you to the guideline that makes it age restricted:

https://youtu.be/FytRloJCQ5Y

https://youtu.be/7J6R5uBC0hk

https://youtu.be/mFetsfLUMCM

You know as well as I do that there are video clips with no age restrictions on Youtube. You have complete horror movies on Youtube. Humongous from 1982 is just one example of a horror flick with a rape scene:

https://youtu.be/JrRUx919qbs



Tree rape scene from Evil Dead:

https://youtu.be/IsX4ufqhefs

Quote from: mightybrain;1126318I think that's probably at the root of why the group quit. The sleazy aspect makes a good headline, but underneath the problem is that he betrayed the trust of his players. He's clearly a frustrated show runner. He describes the situations in terms of scenes and fades and pans. He had his scene planned out and railroaded the characters into it. It's probably not the first time he's done it, but maybe the first time his players noticed due to his blatant use of DM fiat to hit on a PC.

Well, I just mean his cadence, his game flow, etc.  He doesn't paint a picture, he ums and ahs because he knows the camera is on him.  Like, when he described the tool that was used on the character in the scene in question, did he say, "He picks up what looks like a modified diagnostic scanner; you don't recognize some of the retrofitted attachments, though." or "He picks up an unusual looking device.  It doesn't seem to be meant for synthetic body repair."?  No, he said, "He, um, picks up...this, uh, tool...thing, it's got these things, y'know, on it."

Just awful narrative skills.

I flipped through that episode and some others, and they're full of things like that.  I feel like he was probably very nervous because he was about to describe a scenario he knew the player wasn't gonna be comfortable with, and that probably didn't help, either.

Also, any DM or GM who has the appellation of a guy who likes to get inside his players heads and find out what makes them uncomfortable, sucks by any definition.  Table top role playing games with your friends are not time for you to experiment on them psychologically with some brain salad surgery.  I mean, if I was in a game with someone like that, and (for example) they "described a scene" (because apparently "created an adventure" isn't good enough for the hipster crowd) where my character's mom had dementia alzheimer's and demanded I role play it out, I'd break a fucking chair over his head, for reasons that would have been obvious beforehand to him (it's because I had to take care of my mom in later stages of dementia and alzheimers and it about broke me).  There's "roleplaying" in the 1950s headshrinker fashion where that might be part of cognitive therapy, but the "roleplaying" this fuckstick was supposed to be doing is the adventure and daring-do type.  All of that and his shit presentation skills make him a poor GM.  And I don't know why he'd be famous for it, or be given note for it.  But, as we see, he was a creep and eventually it blew up on him.

With that said, this video from Nick Rekeita is a good overview of the situation:

[video=youtube;Ptv8fl9o0hA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptv8fl9o0hA[/youtube]

I don't 100% agree with Nick, but it's a good summation.

Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1126340You know as well as I do that there are video clips with no age restrictions on Youtube.

Sure. But only because they haven't been flagged as yet. They are meant to be age restricted. If you're relying on the monetisation as a channel you'd be a lot more careful what you post.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1126354I don't 100% agree with Nick, but it's a good summation.

His summation is that it was a 'fictional sexual assault' which is exactly what the headline of the article he is attempting to ridicule states. Drunk commenting is his thing though so I guess we shouldn't expect a coherent argument. But attacking a Polygon article is going for some pretty low hanging fruit; and he still fumbled it.

It occurs to me that there may be some lack of understanding as to what constitutes sexual assault in law (as opposed to rape.) Obviously different countries and states will have their own takes. From this one (https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-assault/) I would suggest that the scenario would be considered sexual assault under 1(b) "The actor knows that the victim is incapable of appraising the nature of the victim's conduct" and 1(g) "The actor, while purporting to offer a medical service, engages in treatment or examination of a victim for other than a bona fide medical purpose or in a manner substantially inconsistent with reasonable medical practices" at the very least.

Quote from: mightybrain;1126381His summation is that it was a 'fictional sexual assault' which is exactly what the headline of the article he is attempting to ridicule states. Drunk commenting is his thing though so I guess we shouldn't expect a coherent argument. But attacking a Polygon article is going for some pretty low hanging fruit; and he still fumbled it.

It occurs to me that there may be some lack of understanding as to what constitutes sexual assault in law (as opposed to rape.) Obviously different countries and states will have their own takes. From this one (https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-assault/) I would suggest that the scenario would be considered sexual assault under 1(b) "The actor knows that the victim is incapable of appraising the nature of the victim's conduct" and 1(g) "The actor, while purporting to offer a medical service, engages in treatment or examination of a victim for other than a bona fide medical purpose or in a manner substantially inconsistent with reasonable medical practices" at the very least.

That's fair, and Rekieta's shtick is Rekieta's shtick; but to my point, this guy sucks balls as a DM by any measure and how he got INTARNET FAMOUSE is beyond me.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1126354Well, I just mean his cadence, his game flow, etc.  He doesn't paint a picture, he ums and ahs because he knows the camera is on him.  Like, when he described the tool that was used on the character in the scene in question, did he say, "He picks up what looks like a modified diagnostic scanner; you don't recognize some of the retrofitted attachments, though." or "He picks up an unusual looking device.  It doesn't seem to be meant for synthetic body repair."?  No, he said, "He, um, picks up...this, uh, tool...thing, it's got these things, y'know, on it."

Just awful narrative skills.

I flipped through that episode and some others, and they're full of things like that.  I feel like he was probably very nervous because he was about to describe a scenario he knew the player wasn't gonna be comfortable with, and that probably didn't help, either.

Also, any DM or GM who has the appellation of a guy who likes to get inside his players heads and find out what makes them uncomfortable, sucks by any definition.  Table top role playing games with your friends are not time for you to experiment on them psychologically with some brain salad surgery.  I mean, if I was in a game with someone like that, and (for example) they "described a scene" (because apparently "created an adventure" isn't good enough for the hipster crowd) where my character's mom had dementia alzheimer's and demanded I role play it out, I'd break a fucking chair over his head, for reasons that would have been obvious beforehand to him (it's because I had to take care of my mom in later stages of dementia and alzheimers and it about broke me).  There's "roleplaying" in the 1950s headshrinker fashion where that might be part of cognitive therapy, but the "roleplaying" this fuckstick was supposed to be doing is the adventure and daring-do type.  All of that and his shit presentation skills make him a poor GM.  And I don't know why he'd be famous for it, or be given note for it.  But, as we see, he was a creep and eventually it blew up on him.

With that said, this video from Nick Rekeita is a good overview of the situation:

[video=youtube;Ptv8fl9o0hA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptv8fl9o0hA[/youtube]

I don't 100% agree with Nick, but it's a good summation.

Now that I've seen the clip, I do agree with this 100%. Nothing happened.

I do think the GM is a hypocrite though, since he's from the kind of culture that produces this sort of outrage to begin with.

One thing I'm seeing in the discussion of this situation is a lot of advocacy of the X-card.

In this case it would seem that the X-card would not have helped at all, since the players would have been too stunned to use it. Which makes me wonder where would it help, if anywhere? And why anyone would advocate for it? Most of us, I imagine wouldn't need something like this, we'd just speak up and call a halt to the game if it got weird. And I can't imagine many DMs not being primarily concerned with the whether or not their players are enjoying their game. Well... I can imagine one, now.

If you need an X card, one of two things, you should not be playing RPGs, or two, the people you play with are pretty horrible people.  Either situation is rectified easily with no cards.

The "X-Card" is Storygames' talking points as to how the pervs protect themselves from social exposure and legal action.

"Well, if we'd had functioning X-Cards in place, this whole thing would never gave happened "

How about simple decency?

How about instead of making unverified claims about exclusivity in the hobby, present real instances of this discrimination against non-white male gamers.

It's easy to cry a wolf is in the woods  preying on the villagers. Ok. What proof of this wolf can you present? Or, are you presenting an inaginary monster to create fear and division in the hobby?

As an African-American GM since '83 who had female and non-white males at his table since day one, this exclusionary dialogue is nonsense to me.

What it seems? A new capitalistic group within a group looking to play "Divide & Conquer" with the hobby hoping to grasp the newer gamers into their fold and manipulate how new gamers spend their time and money in regard to the hobby.

Be wise.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1126410The "X-Card" is Storygames' talking points as to how the pervs protect themselves from social exposure and legal action.

"Well, if we'd had functioning X-Cards in place, this whole thing would never gave happened "

How about simple decency?

How about instead of making unverified claims about exclusivity in the hobby, present real instances of this discrimination against non-white male gamers.

It's easy to cry a wolf is in the woods  preying on the villagers. Ok. What proof of this wolf can you present? Or, are you presenting an inaginary monster to create fear and division in the hobby?

As an African-American GM since '83 who had female and non-white males at his table since day one, this exclusionary dialogue is nonsense to me.

What it seems? A new capitalistic group within a group looking to play "Divide & Conquer" with the hobby hoping to grasp the newer gamers into their fold and manipulate how new gamers spend their time and money in regard to the hobby.

Be wise.

Yeah.  If a person's doing cringey sorta-rapey things, don't game with them.  If they decide the gaming table is the place to air their unsolicited opinions on whatever subject and nobody's interested in hearing it, don't game with them.  It's not rocket science.  Building a Rube Goldberg device in some effort to somehow make people behave like a normal adult only wastes everybody's time when there's a simpler solution at hand.  It's not difficult to tell a good player/GM from a bad one, just don't play with the crazies and/or assholes and all's golden.

Quote from: Valatar;1126411Yeah.  If a person's doing cringey sorta-rapey things, don't game with them.  If they decide the gaming table is the place to air their unsolicited opinions on whatever subject and nobody's interested in hearing it, don't game with them.  It's not rocket science.  Building a Rube Goldberg device in some effort to somehow make people behave like a normal adult only wastes everybody's time when there's a simpler solution at hand.  It's not difficult to tell a good player/GM from a bad one, just don't play with the crazies and/or assholes and all's golden.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Exactly, Valatar! It makes me wonder, with all of these whiny crybabies, if there is such a deep "need" for X-Cards, consent forms, "safety tools" and on and on, to "ensure gamers are safe"--why the fuck are you gaming with these people? Why would anyone *want* to game with people that need all of this bullshit?

In my groups, the only things we need are soda, coffee, munchies--and some tequila, and fine cigars.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

"Storygames" again. You guys are hilarious :D

Quote from: Valatar;1126411Yeah.  If a person's doing cringey sorta-rapey things, don't game with them.  If they decide the gaming table is the place to air their unsolicited opinions on whatever subject and nobody's interested in hearing it, don't game with them.  It's not rocket science.  Building a Rube Goldberg device in some effort to somehow make people behave like a normal adult only wastes everybody's time when there's a simpler solution at hand.  It's not difficult to tell a good player/GM from a bad one, just don't play with the crazies and/or assholes and all's golden.

I always thought that they planned the X-card for when they were gaming with people that they don't really know--like in conventions, pick-up games at stores, and such things. For these things, it's not necessarily easy to tell the good player/GM from a bad one just by looking at them, and it's not like they can read resumes and check references (OK, maybe they could for those running and preregistering to play at conventions), so they came up with the X-card.

Since I don't play at those types of tables, the X-card is worthless to me. I really can't see a need for it in games where the players are familiar with one another. Those are the times that reasonable people should have enough time and sense to make an informed decision about whether or not to play with certain people, and they shouldn't need a prop to help them do so. I mean, I don't need to have X-cards around when having a mealtime conversation at a table with my friends and family, and that's not too different from gaming IMO.

Quote from: Trond;1126387Now that I've seen the clip, I do agree with this 100%. Nothing happened.

I do think the GM is a hypocrite though, since he's from the kind of culture that produces this sort of outrage to begin with.

Greetings!

Fucking awesome video and commentary by the lawyer. The analytical light of actual legal dynamics are applied to this pathetic trainwreck.

Nothing happened is right. Ridiculous how fragile and stupid these kinds of people are.

This shows just how brain-damaged and emotionally fucked up so many of these people are.

This clown Koebel now is in professional therapy...*laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1126284I'd take offense at just how bad a DM he is.

I fast forwarded and rewound it and all I saw was a GM who couldn't shut up and players saying next to nothing.
Pretty much the opposite of how I GM.

Quote from: Valatar;1126411Yeah.  If a person's doing cringey sorta-rapey things, don't game with them.  If they decide the gaming table is the place to air their unsolicited opinions on whatever subject and nobody's interested in hearing it, don't game with them.  It's not rocket science. ...  It's not difficult to tell a good player/GM from a bad one, just don't play with the crazies and/or assholes and all's golden.

If people discuss this upfront for a private in-home game, and you are looking for a game with adult content, there's no reason not to play. I feel like these blanket statements are just admonishing the subject-matter. I appreciate your feelings of moral superiority, but the BEHAVIOR is what at issue here. GMs or players inflicting unwanted subject matter into a game that wasn't agreed to. A group of people playing a consensual RPG containing adult subject-matter are not crazy nor are they assholes.

Quote from: Valatar;1126411... Building a Rube Goldberg device in some effort to somehow make people behave like a normal adult only wastes everybody's time ...

I love this. I want to make a t-shirt. :-D

Again, I think the x-card is a terrible idea. There is literally NOTHING that can replace a reasonable conversation about the campaign, subject matter and preferences before a game.

In addition, adult subject-matter should never be included in convention / public games. Maybe in one of those after-hours convention slots with a precise disclosure in the description.

I will keep repeating this with every attempt at moral-shaming the forum. :-P

Quote from: HappyDaze;1126414I mean, I don't need to have X-cards around when having a mealtime conversation at a table with my friends and family, and that's not too different from gaming IMO.

Just wait till these same people start suggesting everyone should carry around a pack of X-Cards with them at all times whenever attending public gatherings of any type. And that doing so is part of being a "decent human being". Fun times.

From what I've seen, the x-card doesn't just fail to help with the problem it's intended to address, it actively exacerbates it.

Quote from: SHARK;1126412*Laughing* Exactly, Valatar! It makes me wonder, with all of these whiny crybabies, if there is such a deep "need" for X-Cards, consent forms, "safety tools" and on and on, to "ensure gamers are safe"--why the fuck are you gaming with these people? Why would anyone *want* to game with people that need all of this bullshit?

Quote from: Trond;1126413"Storygames" again. You guys are hilarious :D

There is no cause and effect with "Storygames".  There might be a correlation for all I know, but I don't play with enough people interested in story games to have an opinion on that.  There is most definitely a cause and effect relation with SJWs.  To the extent that SJWs prefer story games, there's your correlation.  At a guess, though, given what a tiny percentage of gamers are involved in story games, I'd say we are back to the problem that SJWs are interested in infecting all kinds of things, and their virus knows no game type boundaries.

I won't say "liberal" because of the grand, wholesome tradition of the classical liberal. I hesitate to even say "leftist" because some outright communists aren't quite that mixture of priggish, corrupt, narrow-minded, and stupid in their pursuit of a secular theocracy--though admittedly its an occupational hazard of the type.  Whatever label you want to put on it, and whatever they come from, the classic first principle of SJWs (and others or their ilk) is that they live and breathe "projection".   They think other people are just as bad as they know they are.  Many of them have self esteem issues on top of all their other problems, and are thus desperate to be convinced that others are worse than they are.   The way they go about insisting on that point is firmly in the camp of "doth protest too much," but when a person is desperate enough, they'll believe their own lies.  They know no game is "safe" with them in it.  How the hell would it be "safe" with others in it that are just as bad or worse?

So to answer your question, Shark, they do this because the correct answer of "no gaming is better than bad gaming" means from their perspective that there will be no gaming--ever.  Deep down, they know that too.  The outcome is entirely predictable:   A few of the worst devious assholes trying to make gaming worse for everyone, on the grounds of why should anyone else be happy if they can't?  And a bunch of useful idiots parroting this out of fear that they may be in the same boat.  (Exactly the same way a household with a chronic alcoholic in it means that no one is allowed to be well-adjusted because the alcoholic isn't.)  Which is very sad, because most of the useful idiots would at least start on a better path by separating from the assholes.

Roll20 just announced cancelling their Descent Into Avernus stream. Presumably due to the same incident.

I feel like that card will do as others are saying.  Make a problem worse...creeps will push out as much creepy as they can hedging on the fact most people hate person to person confrontation.  People who have it in them; will just push the margin as much as possible and have the fall back that no one carded them, or get carded and then use their mastery of playing victim to justify it/get forgiven.

Quote from: mightybrain;1126425Roll20 just announced cancelling their Descent Into Avernus stream. Presumably due to the same incident.

It is probably to divert attention from the complete shit show they are right now.  A botched release of a very poorly tested feature and network failures which make the app near unusable. Also apparently it is not cancelled it is suspended and AK and his girlfriend have been booted from the cast.

And he had another one featured on the D&D channel: Jace Beleren Must Die. Also gone.

I think it's delicious that this happened.  Regardless of how ridiculous you might think the circumstances are, this guy was part of the cancel culture crowd and he got what he deserved for it.  Adios, amigo.

I guess it demonstrates the wisdom of limiting your streams to a tiny incestuous pool of indie darling narcissists. I thought these guys were supposed to be all about diversity.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1126422There is no cause and effect with "Storygames".  There might be a correlation for all I know, but I don't play with enough people interested in story games to have an opinion on that.  There is most definitely a cause and effect relation with SJWs.  To the extent that SJWs prefer story games, there's your correlation.  At a guess, though, given what a tiny percentage of gamers are involved in story games, I'd say we are back to the problem that SJWs are interested in infecting all kinds of things, and their virus knows no game type boundaries.

I won't say "liberal" because of the grand, wholesome tradition of the classical liberal. I hesitate to even say "leftist" because some outright communists aren't quite that mixture of priggish, corrupt, narrow-minded, and stupid in their pursuit of a secular theocracy--though admittedly its an occupational hazard of the type.  Whatever label you want to put on it, and whatever they come from, the classic first principle of SJWs (and others or their ilk) is that they live and breathe "projection".   They think other people are just as bad as they know they are.  Many of them have self esteem issues on top of all their other problems, and are thus desperate to be convinced that others are worse than they are.   The way they go about insisting on that point is firmly in the camp of "doth protest too much," but when a person is desperate enough, they'll believe their own lies.  They know no game is "safe" with them in it.  How the hell would it be "safe" with others in it that are just as bad or worse?

So to answer your question, Shark, they do this because the correct answer of "no gaming is better than bad gaming" means from their perspective that there will be no gaming--ever.  Deep down, they know that too.  The outcome is entirely predictable:   A few of the worst devious assholes trying to make gaming worse for everyone, on the grounds of why should anyone else be happy if they can't?  And a bunch of useful idiots parroting this out of fear that they may be in the same boat.  (Exactly the same way a household with a chronic alcoholic in it means that no one is allowed to be well-adjusted because the alcoholic isn't.)  Which is very sad, because most of the useful idiots would at least start on a better path by separating from the assholes.

I'm a heretic on here who actually quite enjoys Story-driven systems, although that might have more with me almost exclusively P&P'ing via text wherein crunchy combat can very quickly drag everything to a screaming halt.

Anyway, my suspicion is that the correlation between 'Storygames' and... ahem, certain audiences for the most part stems from them being typically light on the crunch front. I suppose D&D - even in it's very streamlined 5E form - is the exception to this, but that arguably has more to it being a relatively simple system if you want it to be and most of these people engorging a (un)healthy diet of Critical Roll, where they've devoured enough to at least comprehend the basics. I'm a 'relative' newcomer to RPGs (if you count a decade or so as such) at least compared to a lot of people on here, but I do think that a lot of it does come down to the Usual Suspects being new themselves, arriving at such a time where as much as possible is being done to streamline (I'm sure some would say 'dumb down') both existing, updated rulesets and entirely new ones where they're designed for 'Storygames'.

I am not trying to make Critical Roll sound like Da Boogeyman. I'm no fan of it but I don't hate the thing (other than flooding fantasy artwork with that fucking Draenei Tiefling). My suspicion is that, from some experience, these people are looking more for 'experiences' rather than games. You know that period between 2005-2016 where a good portion of the video game audience seemed obsessed with being digital movies rather than experiences led by gameplay? That's essentially what is being craved here, rather than the 'mundane' nature of rolling up stats, tossing a lot of dice, working out the best way to do this and that and having something 'epic and awesome and greentext'able' almost randomly as opposed to vomiting their OCDonutSteal out there and nigh-demanding a story revolving around said OC and their quirky social hijinx, which Storygames(tm) are much more focused upon.

Quote from: mightybrain;1126437I guess it demonstrates the wisdom of limiting your streams to a tiny incestuous pool of indie darling narcissists. I thought these guys were supposed to be all about diversity.

To quote Ice-T "Freedom of speech/yeah/just watch what you say."

Quote from: mightybrain;1126421From what I've seen, the x-card doesn't just fail to help with the problem it's intended to address, it actively exacerbates it.

Working as intended. ;)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1126384That's fair, and Rekieta's shtick is Rekieta's shtick; but to my point, this guy sucks balls as a DM by any measure and how he got INTARNET FAMOUSE is beyond me.

Storygamer favorite. Pink hair. Declaring himself "feminist". Declaring himself "queer".

Quote from: mightybrain;1126393One thing I'm seeing in the discussion of this situation is a lot of advocacy of the X-card.

In this case it would seem that the X-card would not have helped at all, since the players would have been too stunned to use it. Which makes me wonder where would it help, if anywhere? And why anyone would advocate for it? Most of us, I imagine wouldn't need something like this, we'd just speak up and call a halt to the game if it got weird. And I can't imagine many DMs not being primarily concerned with the whether or not their players are enjoying their game. Well... I can imagine one, now.

So... I'm guessing you didn't watch my video?

Quote from: Snark Knight;1126438I'm a heretic on here who actually quite enjoys Story-driven systems, although that might have more with me almost exclusively P&P'ing via text wherein crunchy combat can very quickly drag everything to a screaming halt.

I could see narrative driven RPGs working very well for forum or text games. It's quite true that crunchy combat is rough and anti-immersive in those mediums.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1126452So... I'm guessing you didn't watch my video?

I did. And I'm agreeing with you, in the most part. You were of the opinion that this was an example of having an X-card and it didn't help. Since then, from what I've seen, the story is that he didn't have an X-card system in place, or do a session zero, or have consent forms, or anything else these muppets come up with. So people, a week later, are still proposing the X-card as the solution to this problem. But I agree that it's not likely a solution and more likely to cause these issues than solve them.

From the looks of it though, he's not going to brush this one off. He might at some point start running games again, but most of the people hosting shows are dropping him and anyone associated with him.

I understand Koebel and co were playing Stars Without Number. A damning indictment of the OSR!! :D

Quote from: Spinachcat;1126470I could see narrative driven RPGs working very well for forum or text games. It's quite true that crunchy combat is rough and anti-immersive in those mediums.

I find 5e D&D works ok for text-chat; Pathfinder or 4e D&D would be too crunchy and square-locked.

For Play By Post I like 1e AD&D/OSRIC, or simpler OSR systems.

Quote from: S'mon;1126474I find 5e D&D works ok for text-chat; Pathfinder or 4e D&D would be too crunchy and square-locked.

For Play By Post I like 1e AD&D/OSRIC, or simpler OSR systems.

5E I've found okay for text-chat thus far but in ten years it's literally my first time using anything D&D. My initial diet of P&P consisted of Dark Heresy, primarily on Myth-Weavers and you can well imagine how slow those games went once the combat kicked up. Luckily the consistent groups I've had over the internet are (now at least) people who generally read the hell out of crunchy systems and adapt to them quickly so that on things like R20 and Fantasy Grounds things can move pretty swiftly. I'd still not touch anything shy of... oh I don't know, PBtA via play-by-post these days though.

Quote from: tenbones;1126084It's "gaming" for people that don't actually game.

So the same as watching sports is for most people.

Quote from: 3rik;1126481So the same as watching sports is for most people.

It's difficult for me to imagine a similar motivation or style between watching sports and watching RPGs. In my experience, there are three types of sports-watchers (any of which may have also played sports in their day):

1. The Fan - personally identifies with a specific team and emotionally invests in their winning or losing.

2. The Statistic Collector - Crunches numbers the whole time, invests in their own numeric machinations and fantasy league standings.

3. The Aesthete - Appreciates the beauty of athleticism and teamwork -- watches football the same way most people watch, say, gymnastics.

(Note that any of these may or may not also be an Armchair Coach)

Of these three types, only the third seems even remotely possibly applicable to watching RPGs. And given the level of actual play in any of the streams being mentioned here, it seems really really unlikely to me that any would be candidates for an Aesthete's enjoyment.

So while I understand the reasons people seem to watch sports, I still can't for the life of me fathom anyone watching RPGs for similar reasons. To me, a much closer analogy would be people watching reality TV, for the sheer voyeurism and egoistic feelings of superiority not otherwise available to people with nothing better to do.

I watched few episodes of CR, and few sessions of Polish broadcasters, and I'm gonna say for me it's more like listening (as I usually go into listen mode) to podcasts.
Like CR players are terribly lousy but they are funny to listen to.

Quote from: S'mon;1126473I understand Koebel and co were playing Stars Without Number. A damning indictment of the OSR!! :D

In the first series... In the second series (where he drove it off the cliff) they'd switched to Genesys.

Quote from: mightybrain;1126472I did. And I'm agreeing with you, in the most part. You were of the opinion that this was an example of having an X-card and it didn't help. Since then, from what I've seen, the story is that he didn't have an X-card system in place, or do a session zero, or have consent forms, or anything else these muppets come up with. So people, a week later, are still proposing the X-card as the solution to this problem. But I agree that it's not likely a solution and more likely to cause these issues than solve them.

From the looks of it though, he's not going to brush this one off. He might at some point start running games again, but most of the people hosting shows are dropping him and anyone associated with him.

OK, I see what you were saying now.
Yes, it does seem that way, that Koebel will be persona non grata at least for a while. But the rush to attack me this week (based on the defamatory and false claims made against me) was clearly an attempt from the SJW crowd to distract from the shame of one of their own favorite-sons being such a dumbass.

It's fascinating watching the fallout. I just saw something more cringe-worthy to my eye that the stream itself. Some Twitterer obviously finding people who follow Adam and asking them if they are aware of what he's done.

It's certainly a useful resource for finding truly repulsive behaviour to bank for your NPC villains. That genuinely wouldn't have occurred to me.

Quote from: Zalman;1126494So while I understand the reasons people seem to watch sports, I still can't for the life of me fathom anyone watching RPGs for similar reasons. To me, a much closer analogy would be people watching reality TV, for the sheer voyeurism and egoistic feelings of superiority not otherwise available to people with nothing better to do.

I've known a couple pro wrestling fans, who are in it for the storylines, the rivalries between the wrestlers, wondering what the next plot twist will be, and so on.  I've never been into sports myself, but I get the impression that there are sports fans who follow their teams for similar, albeit unscripted, reasons - just a day or two ago, a friend posted on facebook about how there's nothing like the feeling of being in the stadium when "your rivals" come onto the field, which is just that sort of involvement in the story around the sport.

And I can easily see fans of gaming podcasts/video series being into it for the same reasons.  They want to follow their favorite character (or party), see how the conflicts with the Bad Guy Of The Week turn out, discover the latest plot twists, and so on.  I'm not sure whether you'd consider that to be a fourth motivation or to fall under your "The Fan" category, but, either way, I suspect that's the main reason that people follow Critical Role, APs, etc.

Quote from: nDervish;1126593I've known a couple pro wrestling fans, who are in it for the storylines, the rivalries between the wrestlers, wondering what the next plot twist will be, and so on.  I've never been into sports myself, but I get the impression that there are sports fans who follow their teams for similar, albeit unscripted, reasons - just a day or two ago, a friend posted on facebook about how there's nothing like the feeling of being in the stadium when "your rivals" come onto the field, which is just that sort of involvement in the story around the sport.

And I can easily see fans of gaming podcasts/video series being into it for the same reasons.  They want to follow their favorite character (or party), see how the conflicts with the Bad Guy Of The Week turn out, discover the latest plot twists, and so on.  I'm not sure whether you'd consider that to be a fourth motivation or to fall under your "The Fan" category, but, either way, I suspect that's the main reason that people follow Critical Role, APs, etc.

Well, I personally wouldn't call professional wrestling a "sport" -- it's athletic, but still theater. And that feeling of being in the stadium I think is more about being part of a large crowd -- the emotional investment in "rivalry" is just the mechanism agreed upon by the crowd. So watching sports still feels differently motivated to me.

Now, I do get the motivation of watching theater for the reasons you outline. It's still hard for me to imagine even that occurring for the video streams being discussed here. Pro wrestling is far better theater. As is any of 1000 B-movies free to watch on YouTube. But hey, to each their own.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1126451Storygamer favorite. Pink hair. Declaring himself "feminist". Declaring himself "queer".

Dyed hair used to just be 'quirky'. Now it's like a giant red flag: 'HI, I'M A FUCKIN WEIRDO!'.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1126963Dyed hair used to just be 'quirky'. Now it's like a giant red flag: 'HI, I'M A FUCKIN WEIRDO!'.

Dangerhair.

Look at  creatures in nature who have skin, fur, plumage etc. those vivid colors.  To a one they are poisonous.  Hair that color is how mother nature says "Do not touch or otherwise interact with."

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1126993Dangerhair.

Look at  creatures in nature who have skin, fur, plumage etc. those vivid colors.  To a one they are poisonous.  Hair that color is how mother nature says "Do not touch or otherwise interact with."

That's aposematism, but strictly speaking, that's a signal to *predators* that the animal should not be *eaten*. It's not generally a signal to avoid for co-existing species. Color signaling is also used to indicate usefulness to other animals (like cleaner wrasse - "Don't eat me - I'm useful") as well as sexual desirability of males (as in peacocks - "I must be fit if I've survived like this").

None of that says anything about dyed-hair humans -- just poking holes in misuse of biology.

(https://i2.wp.com/stonetoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/male-feminist-comic.png)

edit to add: I posted this before watching Pundit's video not knowing he referenced it, or having seen a picture of Mr. Koebel. Also I was going to say the same thing about him being a real life version of a SJW soy strawman from /pol/. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone less worthy of respect.

Someone here obviously is part of the run on hair dye. Wonder who it is...

Quote from: Mjollnir;1127016(https://i2.wp.com/stonetoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/male-feminist-comic.png)

edit to add: I posted this before watching Pundit's video not knowing he referenced it, or having seen a picture of Mr. Koebel. Also I was going to say the same thing about him being a real life version of a SJW soy strawman from /pol/. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone less worthy of respect.

For once, I actually agree with you on something.

Male feminists are scum who deserve complete and total contempt and to be exposed as the evil monsters they truly are.

Adam Koebel is a male feminist commie who combines the worst aspects of soybeards, dangerhairs, and the punk subculture.

Someone needs to kick his ass, which is something his parents apparently forgot to do.

I still can't stop cracking up every time I see that comic. Koebel looks SO MUCH LIKE HIM! The dude in the comic just needs a splotch of pink hair and it would be identical.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1127451I still can't stop cracking up every time I see that comic. Koebel looks SO MUCH LIKE HIM! The dude in the comic just needs a splotch of pink hair and it would be identical.

Agreed. I still don't know why all these fucks have ugly beards.

Go clean shaven. It looks much better and is also less skeevy.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1127473Agreed. I still don't know why all these fucks have ugly beards.

Go clean shaven. It looks much better and is also less skeevy.

The beard is camouflage that lets them better hide among the types of women with which they are most likely to associate (no, not softball players...).

QuoteGo clean shaven. It looks much better and is also less skeevy.

Never. Wild bushy beard is the best, as Fathers of Church and Wiking Invaders proved.
There is a name for beardless men. They're called women.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West;1128176Never. Wild bushy beard is the best, as Fathers of Church and Wiking Invaders proved.
There is a name for beardless men. They're called women.

I have very mixed feelings on the Church Fathers.

The Vikings were pretty awesome though, but as a general rule, beards only look good on Vikings, Druids, and Greek philosophers.

If you are unable to look good with beard that simply mean you are unable to look good period.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1128192I have very mixed feelings on the Church Fathers.

The Vikings were pretty awesome though, but as a general rule, beards only look good on Vikings, Druids, and Greek philosophers.

What about kung-fu masters?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1128213What about kung-fu masters?

Kung Fu Masters are cool too with beards. They are covered by that exemption as well.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West;1128207If you are unable to look good with beard that simply mean you are unable to look good period.

Eh, a mustache can look really good for certain body types.

But beards generally don't look good. Maybe if they're well-trimmed, it can work.

Millennial soyboys and SJW's have ruined beards forever in my book.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West;1128207If you are unable to look good with beard that simply mean you are unable to look good period.

Eh, a mustache can be good.

But beards generally don't look good. Maybe if they're well-trimmed, it can work.

Millennial soyboys and SJW's have ruined beards forever in my book.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West;1128207If you are unable to look good with beard that simply mean you are unable to look good period.

I know many, many women to whom this does not apply!

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West;1128207If you are unable to look good with beard that simply mean you are unable to look good period.

Roaring agreement in Dwarven

QuoteBut beards generally don't look good. Maybe if they're well-trimmed, it can work.

Well trimmed beards or mustaches alone are sign of effeminity, just like SJW's pseudolumberjack painted beards. Beard should be as bushy and wild as nature allow it, like mane of a lion.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West;1128223Well trimmed beards or mustaches alone are sign of effeminity, just like SJW's pseudolumberjack painted beards. Beard should be as bushy and wild as nature allow it, like mane of a lion.

It depends on the length. If your looking like a homeless person trying to pass of that ugly mess on your face as the mane of lion is going to get one nothing but jokes and laughter. Or almost no dates or sex ever. Anyone who thinks not taking care of how they look is a good thing is in absolute denial.

QuoteIt depends on the length. If your looking like a homeless person trying to pass of that ugly mess on your face as the mane of lion is going to get one nothing but jokes and laughter. Or almost no dates or sex ever. Anyone who thinks not taking care of how they look is a good thing is in absolute denial.

Longer beard the better. Of course it should be washed and combed just as hair.
Rest is not important - I'm deontologist, I spit on utilitarian consequences ;)

Greetings!

Yeah, beards look pretty damned cool on KUNG FU MASTERS! Can't forget the badass, old kung fu masters.:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1127473Agreed. I still don't know why all these fucks have ugly beards.

Go clean shaven. It looks much better and is also less skeevy.

I'm just happy that beards are in style with these buffoons.  Remember, it used to be top-knots (man buns)!

The Three Rules of Wearing a Top-Knot:
1)Are you Toshiro Mifune?
2)If yes, you may wear a top knot.
3)If no, you may NOT wear a top-knot.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4340[/ATTACH]

He's back on Twitter. But only because "It's no time to stay silent with all this injustice going on..."

Fear not, the pronoun people are already piling on. At least it might take the heat off Mike Mearls for a while.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West;1128223Well trimmed beards or mustaches alone are sign of effeminity, just like SJW's pseudolumberjack painted beards.

That's dumb. Plenty of SJWs with bushy beards or well-trimmed beards.

Here's his moving on blog post:

https://www.adam-koebel.com/blog/2020/5/18/moving-on

And the typical and predictable shit show at Reddit to go with it: https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/gz615t/moving_on_adam_koebel/

Quote from: mightybrain;1133182Here's his moving on blog post:

https://www.adam-koebel.com/blog/2020/5/18/moving-on

QuoteI don't feel that the trust and support necessary to take creative risks is present in the broadcasting space I belonged to.

No matter your opinions on The Incident - I certainly don't have any strong ones - I do find it amusing that he more or less tries to spin the entire thing into one big, "I am the victim" post. As one of the posts on that Reddit post above says, if somebody else did this he would be among the first people calling for their heads. Live by the sword, die by the sword indeed, but the practitioners of Cancel Culture never expect their own blasphemy laws to one day be applied to them.

The opening paragraphs about turning his Hobby into his Business is good stuff. Anyone considering doing the same should take note. He is speaking from experience with sincerity.

The mid-section is interesting because he describes what happens when you encourage a SJW fandom. Anyone who recruits the mentally unstable as their audience is playing with fire. The insane eat their own and mobs can never be appeased. Here's a quote:

I'm being emailed anonymous threats of harm if I ever return to broadcasting or attend a convention, messages telling me I shouldn't exist at all let alone be allowed to "come back" -- voices shouting that nothing I had previously said or done or made mattered in the face of my mistake. People are telling me that redemption, for me, is impossible. I've been invited to end my own life to prevent the further harm I will certainly cause.

Even I'm not cold enough to not feel (some) empathy. Unless your "mistake" involves vicious crimes, there is zero reason for these responses.   Adam was an asshat, not a criminal.

The picture at the bottom of Adam in pink hair tells it all. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Nothing he did couldn't be solved by an apology between reasonable adults.  "Reasonable" is the problem.  There's are reason we refer to these people as the "Outrage Brigade", but they're more like locusts.  They swoop in, destroy everything, and then move on to the next target.  They've all but devoured comic books and they're working on comedians.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133194Even I'm not cold enough to not feel (some) empathy. Unless your "mistake" involves vicious crimes, there is zero reason for these responses.   Adam was an asshat, not a criminal.

Pretty much. I saw a clip of the "mistake" and it barely even deserved an apology. So he gave a robot an electronic orgasm. Who cares?!? The guy tried to be funny but came out weird. So fucking what?

The whole thing was cringy, but that's about it. It wasn't anything even seriously disturbing. More like failing at being edgy. Now these people want to literally end this guy over a quip.

I do get a bit of schadenfreude from idiots like him getting a taste of the type of histrionic, self-entitled audience that he carefully tried to cultivate. But these people are insane vultures.

There is no mercy and forgiveness in the world he and his ilk have created. Are they satisfied now?

(No, of course not. They are as unhappy and frustrated as ever.)

Quote from: Snark Knight;1133187No matter your opinions on The Incident - I certainly don't have any strong ones - I do find it amusing that he more or less tries to spin the entire thing into one big, "I am the victim" post. As one of the posts on that Reddit post above says, if somebody else did this he would be among the first people calling for their heads. Live by the sword, die by the sword indeed, but the practitioners of Cancel Culture never expect their own blasphemy laws to one day be applied to them.

Well, he is a victim in this case - that he'd likely be part of the Cancel Culture mob in other circumstances does not change that. The SJW gamer community is toxic, and while his "welcome to my android rape Magical Realm" brainfart was a massive dick move, the punishment was far out of proportion to the offence. I don't have to like him to see that. Nobody should be getting "You should kill yourself now" emails for what he did.

Quote from: S'mon;1133222Well, he is a victim in this case - that he'd likely be part of the Cancel Culture mob in other circumstances does not change that. The SJW gamer community is toxic, and while his "welcome to my android rape Magical Realm" brainfart was a massive dick move, the punishment was far out of proportion to the offence. I don't have to like him to see that. Nobody should be getting "You should kill yourself now" emails for what he did.

Yup, "Let he who is without fuckup cast the first stone" should be the principle here, not "You made one mistake, you're out!"

I think that the principle here is "hoist by your own petard". I still hope people let him be eventually.

If he is getting death threats, he should contact the authorities.

QuoteSome, however, believe otherwise. I continue to be the recipient of hate, vitriol and targeted abuse both in public and in private spaces. I'm being emailed anonymous threats of harm if I ever return to broadcasting or attend a convention, messages telling me I shouldn't exist at all let alone be allowed to "come back" -- voices shouting that nothing I had previously said or done or made mattered in the face of my mistake. People are telling me that redemption, for me, is impossible. I've been invited to end my own life to prevent the further harm I will certainly cause. Those voices influenced the people responsible for my contracted work. They led to Roll20 cancelling Roll20 Presents and Jace Beleren Must Die. They led to Andrews McMeel Publishing cancelling the last two episodes of Eat the Rich. My mistake started an avalanche of cascading collapse, fuelled by the most aggressive cruelty I've ever experienced.  

This is exactly the culture he helped create and put himself forward as a leader of.  I will shed no tears.

A time to plant, a time to reap...

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1133186And the typical and predictable shit show at Reddit to go with it: https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/gz615t/moving_on_adam_koebel/

That thread is full of excuses for his shitty behaviour with a handful of people who point out how he was actually a major factor in creating the "community" he is now the "victim" of.

These cancel culture sjws never expect the leopards to eat their face until the leopards actually eat their faces...

I have no sympathy for him and hypocrites like him. You reap what you sow, Adam...

(edited an autoco-wreckt)

My 2 cents, he should have double downed, rounded up another group of players to play and just kept on streaming.

When the mob comes for you then you just have to unleash your inner Rooftop Korean.

He's an asshat, but he doesn't deserve what happened to him. Unjust actions are unjust even when applied to deserving targets. I'm sorry that it seems that he didn't learn much from this, and I'm also sorry that it happened to him. He lost a lot of hard work and he didn't deserve that. Mobs are awful, and this ruining people over nonsense and nothing has got to stop.

Quote from: Altheus;1133223Yup, "Let he who is without fuckup cast the first stone" should be the principle here, not "You made one mistake, you're out!"

I am not surprised.

Quote"...for whatever a man might sow, that also he will reap."

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1133326He's an asshat, but he doesn't deserve what happened to him. Unjust actions are unjust even when applied to deserving targets. I'm sorry that it seems that he didn't learn much from this, and I'm also sorry that it happened to him. He lost a lot of hard work and he didn't deserve that. Mobs are awful, and this ruining people over nonsense and nothing has got to stop.

Completely agree. Unfortunately nothing will stop until people quit pandering to the criminally* insane.

*While this varies a bit by state, in the US encouraging people to commit suicide is a crime, and there are many cases where manslaughter has been successfully prosecuted against people having no direct role in suicide.

He chose to align himself with the puritan mobs, no surprise that it would come for him when he slipped up. What's sad is that he made a conscious decision to destroy his own business by letting the mob dictate his future. He should have kept on streaming and ignored the mob, because they will always find a new outrage to cancel once they get bored of trying to destroy you. But that would require backbone, which male feminists were never born with.

Well, my hobby is my business, but of course I've never aligned myself to a nest of vipers...

Quote from: Shasarak;1133323My 2 cents, he should have double downed, rounded up another group of players to play and just kept on streaming.

You're absolutely right. That would have been hilariously bold and the aftermath would have shown how many (or how few) of his audience were really offended. The mob will keep winning until people stand up against them.

Quote from: Shasarak;1133323When the mob comes for you then you just have to unleash your inner Rooftop Korean.

Rooftop Koreans are so 1992! In 2020, I identify as a Chainsaw Mexican! :)

Koebel is the very definition of deserving it. It's the embodiment of the Golden Rule.

Of course he doesn't deserve it due to the idiotic infraction. He deserves it because he, over and over, participated in deplatforming mobs.He offers absolutely NO mercy to anyone who didn't toe the far left line.

When the far leftist never offers you a second chance while you offer him one, guess who goes extinct. You'll be muttering 'muh principles' as he leads you to the guillotine.

Quote from: DickFeynman;1133405Koebel is the very definition of deserving it. It's the embodiment of the Golden Rule.

Of course he doesn't deserve it due to the idiotic infraction. He deserves it because he, over and over, participated in deplatforming mobs.He offers absolutely NO mercy to anyone who didn't toe the far left line.

When the far leftist never offers you a second chance while you offer him one, guess who goes extinct. You'll be muttering 'muh principles' as he leads you to the guillotine.

Eh, I know I'm a softie, but 'participated' is not the same as 'created'. Koebel is fundamentally a sheep; I reserve 90% of my vitriol for the wolves like Jessica Price & Chris Helton for whom ruining other peoples' lives is their primary activity.

This does not mean Koebel is not a jerk, an asshat and a creep. I don't have to like someone to empathise with them. That they wouldn't do the same is neither here nor there.

Your willingness to empathize with someone who won't reciprocate is precisely here and there.

I understand your point. You represent probably most normies who are decent people. But "all that is required for evil to prevail is good men to do nothing." I see you're in London. Your mobs just defaced Churchill statues and are on the verge of wiping out your entire country's history not because of the 5% of far leftists on the street, but the 95% who either don't care or aren't willing to oppose them.

If you're cool with that, then I guess good luck with your new communist utopia. Koebel was of the freaks on the street calling for people's heads.[ATTACH=CONFIG]4545[/ATTACH]

The man looks like he landed in 12 different countercultures at once, and hasn't taken a bath to wash it off since.

I always chuckle that people like this that try to make themselves look as UGLY as possible in real life want cutesy avatars.

Quote from: DickFeynman;1133431Your willingness to empathize with someone who won't reciprocate is precisely here and there.

I understand your point. You represent probably most normies who are decent people. But "all that is required for evil to prevail is good men to do nothing." I see you're in London. Your mobs just defaced Churchill statues and are on the verge of wiping out your entire country's history not because of the 5% of far leftists on the street, but the 95% who either don't care or aren't willing to oppose them.

If you're cool with that, then I guess good luck with your new communist utopia. Koebel was of the freaks on the street calling for people's heads.

Not S'mon, but, if I won't stand for the principle of what's right, who will? It's not the easy path, and it means occasionally speaking up for people who advocate for things that I strongly dislike and disagree with, like Koebel. It also doesn't mean "doing nothing" -- it means opposing wrongdoing wherever it happens and whoever it happens to. One of the scariest things to me is how dangerous it has become simply to debate and to think freely. That doesn't get better by looking the other way when the mob takes out targets who disagree with me.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1133436Not S'mon, but, if I won't stand for the principle of what's right, who will? It's not the easy path, and it means occasionally speaking up for people who advocate for things that I strongly dislike and disagree with, like Koebel. It also doesn't mean "doing nothing" -- it means opposing wrongdoing wherever it happens and whoever it happens to. One of the scariest things to me is how dangerous it has become simply to debate and to think freely. That doesn't get better by looking the other way when the mob takes out targets who disagree with me.

Again, Golden Rule.

If the ideological opponent does NOT try to deplatform others, then I agree not to deplatform them.This was 95% of Democrats prior to 2015. But if they DO engage in deplatforming like Koebel, there's absolutely nothing noble about turning the cheek while they crush everyone on your side. It's just weakness once they've decided THEY are not going to debate.

"I don't believe in retaliation," said the Jew kneeling meekly in front of the trench seconds before the Nazi blew his head off.

I don't think kicking Koebel when the SJWs are kicking Koebel is an anti-SJW move. I'd say consistently opposing SJW tactics (including "kill yourself now" from anonymous trolls, which also comes from 4chan goons) is both morally and practically right.

For that matter, if a guy I like were a creep, I'd condemn them just as I condemn Koebel. High profile non-SJWs are rarely creeps IME, but if say Venger Satanis raped a PC in some game he was streaming (which I doubt he would) I wouldn't let my liking for Venger stop me condemning him. But I wouldn't tell him he should kill himself either.

Quote from: S'mon;1133451I don't think kicking Koebel when the SJWs are kicking Koebel is an anti-SJW move. I'd say consistently opposing SJW tactics (including "kill yourself now" from anonymous trolls, which also comes from 4chan goons) is both morally and practically right.

For that matter, if a guy I like were a creep, I'd condemn them just as I condemn Koebel. High profile non-SJWs are rarely creeps IME, but if say Venger Satanis raped a PC in some game he was streaming (which I doubt he would) I wouldn't let my liking for Venger stop me condemning him. But I wouldn't tell him he should kill himself either.

No one's arguing about condemning. Condemn all you want and accept they can condemn you. But Koebel and company's M.O. is to go after your employer or advertisers and destroy your ability to earn a living and drive you off Twitter and Facebook and Paypal. So you'll be condemning them to audience of zero from your empty studio apartment while they're laughing and going about their business.

As for death threats, EVERYONE talking politics under theit real name gets death threats. EVERYONE gets "go kill yourself" and maybe even "I'll kill you." Shouldn't be allowed. But for Christ's sake those are NOT real threats. It's tool #39 for sjw's to cry and absolve themselves while the death threats -- and literal violence like shooting of Paul Rand -- against the right are ignored or mocked by the media.

My two cents.

I'm not joining in kicking him while he's down, I don't agree he should be cancelled (anyone for that mater), I also wouldn't pee on him if he was on fire. Live by the mob, die by the mob.

Sadly the only way the mob will stop is when enough people stand up to them, and even sadder this will only happen when they themselves have to live under the rules they wish to impose unto others.

Also IMHO " go kill yourself" is the same as "go fuck yourself".

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133434The man looks like he landed in 12 different countercultures at once, and hasn't taken a bath to wash it off since.

I always chuckle that people like this that try to make themselves look as UGLY as possible in real life want cutesy avatars.

  No shit.  The guy is serious mash up.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133457Also IMHO " go kill yourself" is the same as "go fuck yourself".

Yup. I heard the term a 'Threatoid'. It's not a threat, but aggressive verbiage.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133459Yup. I heard the term a 'Threatoid'. It's not a threat, but aggressive verbiage.

Agreed, it's telling someone off.

What galls me is they actually stayed till the end of the game of the live-stream.  So offended and uncomfortable but instead of signing off, they stay to the bitter end as apparently plugging one's stream channel takes precedence.  Weak and pathetic display by all participants involved.

To burn him later under the cover of the mob justice mentality is so Machiavellian and a nice example of passive aggressive behavior.  If it bothered anyone in the session so much, just voice it and/or disconnect from the game, rather than act all hurt after the fact.

Koebel is being an idiot but misinterprets the reactions as none of the players acts like an adult to straight out tell him what they were thinking:  He ends up going on thinking it's just a funny cringe moment for all involved.  The players are as much at fault as they give him enough rope to hang himself.  Dumb move on his part but too bad his compatriots didn't help him avoid digging his own grave as it was live.  Nice friends indeed.

Quote from: DickFeynman;1133450Again, Golden Rule.

If the ideological opponent does NOT try to deplatform others, then I agree not to deplatform them.This was 95% of Democrats prior to 2015. But if they DO engage in deplatforming like Koebel, there's absolutely nothing noble about turning the cheek while they crush everyone on your side. It's just weakness once they've decided THEY are not going to debate.

"I don't believe in retaliation," said the Jew kneeling meekly in front of the trench seconds before the Nazi blew his head off.

I dunno, man. Godwin's Law is long dead, but while I see your point that it's important to stand and fight, I think it's still worth debating the tactics and insisting on doing the best, right thing. I want an end to cancel culture being effective in destroying people's lives. I hope words and ideas will be enough to win. I know that it won't be if we give up now.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1133510What galls me is they actually stayed till the end of the game of the live-stream.  So offended and uncomfortable but instead of signing off, they stay to the bitter end as apparently plugging one's stream channel takes precedence.  Weak and pathetic display by all participants involved.

Yup. I dont find the guy singularly as toxic as the entire environment. Everybody is a potential enemy so nobody is a friend. Your only true friend is the movement, but its also the thing that ruins your life the most.

Quote from: DickFeynman;1133405When the far leftist never offers you a second chance while you offer him one, guess who goes extinct. You'll be muttering 'muh principles' as he leads you to the guillotine.

This is an inconvenient and uncomfortable truth.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133561This is an inconvenient and uncomfortable truth.

I would disagree. In my opinion instead of compromising your principles, your principles should take into account reality to a certain degree.

I really like Starship Troopers for this for instance. I really acknowledges that you can dance all the fancy dances around the idea of democracy all you like: Reality is still ruled by force, and by participating in democracy, you are still using force.

Thats not to say democracy is bad, or selective speech enforcement is good. Its that while principles of pacifism can be....somewhat amicable, I don't think they are good for the world.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133594I would disagree. In my opinion instead of compromising your principles, your principles should take into account reality to a certain degree.

I really like Starship Troopers for this for instance. I really acknowledges that you can dance all the fancy dances around the idea of democracy all you like: Reality is still ruled by force, and by participating in democracy, you are still using force.

Thats not to say democracy is bad, or selective speech enforcement is good. Its that while principles of pacifism can be....somewhat amicable, I don't think they are good for the world.

Starship Troopers - the novel - is a damn good story and one of my all time favorites. It is also piss-poor philosophy, as is any fiction whatever the quality of the story or its telling.

Quote from: RandyB;1133601Starship Troopers - the novel - is a damn good story and one of my all time favorites. It is also piss-poor philosophy, as is any fiction whatever the quality of the story or its telling.

It's "piss-poor" because WE as a species have piss-poor people that create the necessity for such a philosophy to emerge.

The quote from G. Michael Hopf that gets tossed around a lot lately "Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." is a granular examination of "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it".

And civilization doesn't exist in a vaccum, it's a continuity. The structures that allow for civilization to exist at ALL are not magical. It requires work from people that essentially are increasingly selfless as a *profession* vs. those that armchair the "shoulds" and "oughts" from the comfort of their immediate surroundings with no perceived commitment to the system.

Having principles is one thing. Acting on them is another. Sacrificing yourself for them is even more refined and rare. Pretending to have them and not understanding what they mean - painfully commonplace

Quote from: tenbones;1133609It's "piss-poor" because WE as a species have piss-poor people that create the necessity for such a philosophy to emerge.

The quote from G. Michael Hopf that gets tossed around a lot lately "Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." is a granular examination of "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it".

And civilization doesn't exist in a vaccum, it's a continuity. The structures that allow for civilization to exist at ALL are not magical. It requires work from people that essentially are increasingly selfless as a *profession* vs. those that armchair the "shoulds" and "oughts" from the comfort of their immediate surroundings with no perceived commitment to the system.

Having principles is one thing. Acting on them is another. Sacrificing yourself for them is even more refined and rare. Pretending to have them and not understanding what they mean - painfully commonplace

That's the necessity for good philosophy, and I agree with your argument. Looking to fiction for that philosophy is a major category error akin to looking to a philosopher for cultural anthropology, or to a journalist for anything other than propaganda.

Quote from: RandyB;1133613That's the necessity for good philosophy, and I agree with your argument. Looking to fiction for that philosophy is a major category error akin to looking to a philosopher for cultural anthropology, or to a journalist for anything other than propaganda.

Greetings!

I agree, my friend. Look how pathetically stupid and dumbed down our whole society has become. There was a time in this country where we revered the Bible; great philosophers of the enlightenment; the classical philosophers of Greece and Rome.

Now we get our inspiration from celebrities, criminals, rebels, and CNN.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RandyB;1133613That's the necessity for good philosophy, and I agree with your argument. Looking to fiction for that philosophy is a major category error akin to looking to a philosopher for cultural anthropology, or to a journalist for anything other than propaganda.

Good fiction *should* provoke discussion in the presentation of an idea or philosophy. It's fine to look at fiction to give a consumer a nudge towards digging into the formal study of that idea. I think Heinlein is *superb* for that. But yes, you shouldn't take fiction as the sole-authority on the topic. Anymore than you should take Ayn Rand's Objectivism only from Atlas Shrugged or Fountainhead... rather than getting deep into the real discussion about it which to no surprise are better served in other works by philosophers who took her ideas and ran with it (whether you agree/disagree with it is irrelevant - it's the idea of philosophy as the verbal/mental iterative process as tech-nerds call it, as the key.).

So yep. Fiction can serve as a start.

I think philosophy has a stronger connection historically to cultural anthropology than journalism does to anything outside of propaganda. Most major philosophers (and therefore philosophies) have threads of continuity that are absolutely the product of cultural anthropological interests. You don't have the rise of Post-Socratic Hellenic ideas traversing the globe without the Greek conquests, and the same from the East with Buddhists making it to Rome itself, or travelling from India to China and eventually to Japan, where each culture tweaked it in its own way, yet maintained its philosophical precepts largely intact. The largest differences being directly attributable to the cultures they passed through themselves.

Here in America? We've completely deracinated ourselves by warping our history by poisoning our systems (zero civics teaching in k-12 worth a damn) to fit this fucked up narrative that is really a neo-Marxist retread designed to undermine our culture. And lo and behold, the weak leaders and weak people bending the knee to this ideology make themselves boldly known. People like Adam Koebel is representative of that. He doesn't realize cognitively he is the shitty-person he pretends to be performatively *against* all while performatively apologizing for actions that he probably doesn't understand isn't really a big deal, to normal people, but it is in the pool of shit he helped create.

Welcome to Hard Times everyone. Better get yourselves ready.

Greetings!

Hard Times are indeed coming!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4546[/ATTACH]

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1133626Greetings!

Hard Times are indeed coming!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Is that yours? SWEEEET rig. BCM, beefy ass drum. Magpul stock, love the rail. Is that a standard compensator? dunno about the bipod (I get it with that optic but I plan on going with a Creedmore 6.5 when I decide to 'reach out an touch' something). Is that a 16" or 20" barrel? Looks 16... hard to tell. If it's a 20... it makes a lot of sense. That's a fine weapon sir.

Quote from: tenbones;1133621Good fiction *should* provoke discussion in the presentation of an idea or philosophy. It's fine to look at fiction to give a consumer a nudge towards digging into the formal study of that idea. I think Heinlein is *superb* for that. But yes, you shouldn't take fiction as the sole-authority on the topic. Anymore than you should take Ayn Rand's Objectivism only from Atlas Shrugged or Fountainhead... rather than getting deep into the real discussion about it which to no surprise are better served in other works by philosophers who took her ideas and ran with it (whether you agree/disagree with it is irrelevant - it's the idea of philosophy as the verbal/mental iterative process as tech-nerds call it, as the key.).

So yep. Fiction can serve as a start.

Excellent point. And Starship Troopers is a viable example.

Quote from: RandyB;1133631Excellent point. And Starship Troopers is a viable example.

  Considering it seems we are word for word in the "soft" period the book and the teacher in the movie discuss.....it might be more viable than I thought possible.

Quote from: tenbones;1133627Is that yours? SWEEEET rig. BCM, beefy ass drum. Magpul stock, love the rail. Is that a standard compensator? dunno about the bipod (I get it with that optic but I plan on going with a Creedmore 6.5 when I decide to 'reach out an touch' something). Is that a 16" or 20" barrel? Looks 16... hard to tell. If it's a 20... it makes a lot of sense. That's a fine weapon sir.

Greetings!

Oh yes, my friend! It's most definitely mine. Yeah, 60-round drum magazine, bipod, 16-inch barrel, Talon Eagle scope, red-dot sight on the right side of the weapon. BCM AR-15 Rifle, 5.56mm Nato. It's so fucking sweet! It also has a target trigger on it, so the pull is so smooth. I had it personally put together by a Army veteran of Afghanistan, a gunsmith that works at my local gun store and gun range. He's a veteran like me, and he personally has the same rifle, with all the same toys. I told him I'm a little behind on all the tech, but I wanted the best, with all the goodies. He told me not to worry, he would hook a brother up. He showed me pics of his exact same rifle at home, same set up. He fought with the rifle in Afghanistan, and said he trusts his life to it. He said BCM makes an absolutely rugged battle rifle you can take anywhere, under any conditions, and feel confident you will come out on top. Whatever the terrain, climate, or circumstances. He spent two hours or so of his own time putting this sweet animal together for me. I fucking love this rifle, my friend!

Oh, and another thing. Goddamn, this rifle is sooooo *LIGHT* and agile, it's fucking amazing. Light, yet strong and rugged, and built to fucking last, and work!

Ahh. 6.5 Creegmore? You smart bastard! I want one of those too! I hear they are just beautiful as well!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark, what maintenance schedule does your rifle require to remain at optimal performance?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133594I would disagree.

You would? That's not allowed!!! REEEEE!!

You're Canceled Banshee now!!!

:D

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133594In my opinion instead of compromising your principles, your principles should take into account reality to a certain degree.

How is that not the same as compromising your principles?

Explain! :)

Quote from: tenbones;1133621Welcome to Hard Times everyone. Better get yourselves ready.

The problem is we can't eat guns or gold.

And very few people know how to farm, fish or hunt anymore. Even professional farmers rely on heavily on technology today to achieve crop success.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133662The problem is we can't eat guns or gold.

You dont eat guns or gold!

Silly Spinachcat.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133662The problem is we can't eat guns or gold.

And very few people know how to farm, fish or hunt anymore. Even professional farmers rely on heavily on technology today to achieve crop success.

Survival of the fittest and all that. But you know... it's *unnecessary* if people would just be a little more reasonable. But we can't have that, ReeeeeeEE! So we have to do things the hard way... So the cycle goes apparently.

Quote from: Shasarak;1133664You dont eat guns or gold!

Silly Spinachcat.

Well you can do anything at LEAST once.

Quote from: tenbones;1133668Well you can do anything at LEAST once.

I remember a joke where the Mum made Whitebait fritters using potato strips and shot gun pellets for "eyes"

okay that is some Next Level Motherhood. /approved.

Quote from: SHARK;1133642Greetings!

Oh yes, my friend! It's most definitely mine. Yeah, 60-round drum magazine, bipod, 16-inch barrel, Talon Eagle scope, red-dot sight on the right side of the weapon. BCM AR-15 Rifle, 5.56mm Nato. It's so fucking sweet! It also has a target trigger on it, so the pull is so smooth. I had it personally put together by a Army veteran of Afghanistan, a gunsmith that works at my local gun store and gun range. He's a veteran like me, and he personally has the same rifle, with all the same toys. I told him I'm a little behind on all the tech, but I wanted the best, with all the goodies. He told me not to worry, he would hook a brother up. He showed me pics of his exact same rifle at home, same set up. He fought with the rifle in Afghanistan, and said he trusts his life to it. He said BCM makes an absolutely rugged battle rifle you can take anywhere, under any conditions, and feel confident you will come out on top. Whatever the terrain, climate, or circumstances. He spent two hours or so of his own time putting this sweet animal together for me. I fucking love this rifle, my friend!

Oh, and another thing. Goddamn, this rifle is sooooo *LIGHT* and agile, it's fucking amazing. Light, yet strong and rugged, and built to fucking last, and work!

Ahh. 6.5 Creegmore? You smart bastard! I want one of those too! I hear they are just beautiful as well!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

We really need to make a new thread to talk about this in the non-gaming area!

Quote from: Shasarak;1133664You dont eat guns or gold!

The TV is showcasing many people who need to eat a shotgun shell and that's making me drink goldschlager!

Quote from: Shasarak;1133664You dont eat guns or gold!

Silly Spinachcat.

I hear it's low in calories.

Quote from: Shasarak;1133664You dont eat guns or gold!

Silly Spinachcat.

Quote from: Trond;1133877I hear it's low in calories.

And high in fiber!

Quote from: RandyB;1133880And high in fiber!

Only if you use old-school wooden stocks. Polymer stocks have zero nutritional value and give you intense gas. /can confirm

Quote from: tenbones;1133897Only if you use old-school wooden stocks. Polymer stocks have zero nutritional value and give you intense gas. /can confirm

Explosive gas, unless you clear the weapon first.

Quote from: tenbones;1133674We really need to make a new thread to talk about this in the non-gaming area!

Greetings!

I created a Weapons and Guns thread in the political forum!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1133626Greetings!

Hard Times are indeed coming!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4546[/ATTACH]

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's a sweet rig, Shark. I'm very envious as it's 12 kinds of illegal here in JT's Canada. It makes me sad that I could never own one now even though I served my country. I sure didn't sign on the line and expect my own "leader" to take away the freedoms we swore to protect with our lives. I really wish we had a constitution like yours.

Quote from: Samsquantch;1134722That's a sweet rig, Shark. I'm very envious as it's 12 kinds of illegal here in JT's Canada. It makes me sad that I could never own one now even though I served my country. I sure didn't sign on the line and expect my own "leader" to take away the freedoms we swore to protect with our lives. I really wish we had a constitution like yours.

Greetings!

Thank you, Samsquantch! Yes, it is such a beautiful, sweet weapon! That you are wrongfully deprived of freedom there in Canada is a tragedy, my friend! While our US Constitution protects our rights to bear arms--you notice how we have to constantly fight to keep our freedom? Check out the Gun thread in Pundit's forum. Lots more gun discussion going on there. 2nd Amendment, stories, all kinds of fun things.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Samsquantch;1134722I really wish we had a constitution like yours.

At the rate of current events, we won't be having a Constitution like ours for much longer either. It's too problematic for the new normal.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133662How is that not the same as compromising your principles?

Explain! :)

I guess to a certain extent it would compromise at least some principle because all principles exist as part of a compromise of another.
If your principle is in equality of outcome, then freedom must be compromised. If you want freedom then know that the odds of equality of outcome may also be compromised.
In essense you 'pick' a set of principles, and compromise others.
And I dont support nihilistic or self destructive principles. This includes pacifism as it does not take into account the natural limination and struggle of reality. Outside of pure barbarism, any state in human existence to be preserved for an extended period requires sacrifice and enforcement. Even if its of a select few that value that freedom of others over their own freedom for instance.

Speaking of Toxic feminist male game masters....I watched a scene from Last of us 2, where I guess Neil Drukmann is the motion capture actor for the man in the scene.  It is LITERALLY Drukmann sodomizing the player (abbey) in the game.  I wonder how much feedback he is going to get on this?