After much hassle with the cartel that controls our borders, I was able to get my hands on Aces & Eights. I was quite looking forward to it and it has not disappointed. I was going to sub-title this thread "why it's the future" but thought that might be too inflammatory for the censoring ideologues that live here. But I would like to share some of the things about this game that get me all excited:
1) Mini-games that handle specific genre-related tasks, using separate systems. They've got them for cattle runs, gambling, gold-panning and trials. Each is structured totally differently so that they become in-effect a game within a game. I've only really read thoroughly and tested the trial one but it was cool enough that I definitely want to find ways to have trials in my game. A nice combo of strategy and roleplaying with rules for threatening or buying jurors or the judge.
2) A reward system based on career paths, where combat experience only really affects your performance in combat (with a curve that flattens out quite quickly). So you really can be a barber and there are in-game motivations to improve as a barber, cut hair, open a shop, hire other barbers. You can also be a whore. That's awesome.
3) Random character generation. This is something I haven't used since elementary school, not because I was against it, but just because it never came across my table in my adult gaming days. But man is it fun. It's detailed too, like how many siblings you have and what happened to each of them. You come out the other side really feeling like you have an in-depth character and you can't wait to run him through the dark hell that is the wild west. There is a point-buy method as well, but the random got me charged up. Makes me want to have random chargen for every game.
4) Excellent writing and a clear love for the genre: There is a nice balance of flavour and rules. The writing is clear and straightforward, with a tough edge and a slight hint of dark sarcasm, which is exactly the way a realistic western should feel. Reading the book makes you want to go back and watch westerns and read some Louis L'amour and Zane Grey.
5) Awesome production values. This isn't a big deal for me, usually, but this book is slick. They must have gotten a ton of open-content art for cheap because all the art in this book is real paintings and illustrations and they are gorgeous, often taking up an entire page with bleed or two pages. The binding is faux-leather so it looks like one of those time-life western books. The sticker on the front is the only false note, looking kind of cheap. It's hefty, too.
The tone of the book is "realistic". It sucks getting shot. It's easy to get sick or infected. Money is important and you don't start with much. There isn't any real way in the system to dial this up or down, so you probably won't be able to twist a cinematic over-the-top western out of this. But for gritty, detailed campaigns where you want to play a guy trying to open a bar without getting your fingers chopped off by the local Maclean boys or a dude doctor from the east looking for his prostitute sister, this is it.
I'm going to try and wrangle a posse together for early '08 and see if I can get a campaign going. I want a real sandbox setup, taking place in and around a town where the players can do whatever the hell they want and we'll see what happens.
Quote from: walkerpSo you really can be a barber and there are in-game motivations to improve as a barber, cut hair, open a shop, hire other barbers. You can also be a whore. That's awesome.
Okay, please elaborate. What kind of fun does the game offer the prospective player of a barber and/or whore?
I pretty well grok the fun of a gun showdown at noon. Trying to give somebody a really clean shave ... that one I'm going to need some help understanding.
Man, I don't need another game right now, much less a cowboy game, but that sounds awesome.
QuoteI was going to sub-title this thread "why it's the future" but thought that might be too inflammatory for the censoring ideologues that live here.
Say what? Have we had a rash of censoring around here and I've been asleep?
It does sound awesome. But, man, what a gamble for Kenzer: an expensive Wild West RPG. Not a surefire recipe for five-digit sales.
Quote from: jrientsSay what? Have we had a rash of censoring around here and I've been asleep?
Yeah I though that was a bit out of place, and counter productive to the OP's supposed intent, which was to talk about a game- or so I thought.
Quote from: walkerp1) Mini-games that handle specific genre-related tasks, using separate systems. They've got them for cattle runs, gambling, gold-panning and trials. Each is structured totally differently so that they become in-effect a game within a game. I've only really read thoroughly and tested the trial one but it was cool enough that I definitely want to find ways to have trials in my game. A nice combo of strategy and roleplaying with rules for threatening or buying jurors or the judge.
Yeah, that sounds cool and is something that i definitely like. A little bit out of fashion in todays 'single unified system' though. Hopefully this sort of thing makes a comeback.
Quote from: TonyLBOkay, please elaborate. What kind of fun does the game offer the prospective player of a barber and/or whore?
I pretty well grok the fun of a gun showdown at noon. Trying to give somebody a really clean shave ... that one I'm going to need some help understanding.
Well I sort of deliberately picked the most mundane examples to emphasize my preference of playing detailed, quotidian and yes sometimes mundane characters. There is a wide range of professions from snake-oil salesman, to cowboy to gambler to leatherworker to sherrif and they all have specific career progressions with BPs (Building Points, the xp for career) attached to them. The game is designed to encourage characters changing profession over time.
I like this because the idea is that you are a real person, trying to make a go in the frontier and the troubles (and adventures) are probably going to come to you. It's one thing being a barber, it's another being a barber shaving a witness to a murder while your kid is playing in the back of the shop. The doors swing open...
Quote from: walkerpAfter much hassle with the cartel that controls our borders, I was able to get my hands on Aces & Eights.
Sorry to go slightly off topic, but as I live in the US I've never really had to deal much with this, so I was wondering what sort of difficulties you had encountered, and as a general question towards you and all non US residents is this common place in your experience?
Quote from: Pierce InverarityIt does sound awesome. But, man, what a gamble for Kenzer: an expensive Wild West RPG. Not a surefire recipe for five-digit sales.
They sold out their first printing in two months. They sold all their demo copies at GenCon. But yes, I'd say it was a gamble. In the short term, it appears to have paid off. We'll see how it does in the long term. I suspect they'll grab a similar niche in terms of size to one they had with Hackmaster (like I have any idea what that is) but maybe one with more upside.
They are talking about coming out with a cheaper player's book in early '08, which would bode well for my campaign.
Quote from: walkerpI like this because the idea is that you are a real person, trying to make a go in the frontier and the troubles (and adventures) are probably going to come to you. It's one thing being a barber, it's another being a barber shaving a witness to a murder while your kid is playing in the back of the shop. The doors swing open...
That, indeed, sounds very dramatic. But ... what happens next? Does the drama come from whether or not you gave the witness a really close shave, or left some stubble at the neckline? Or is a combat about to break out in the barber-shop?
Quote from: Serious PaulSorry to go slightly off topic, but as I live in the US I've never really had to deal much with this, so I was wondering what sort of difficulties you had encountered, and as a general question towards you and all non US residents is this common place in your experience?
Now you're going to get me ranting. Here in Canada we are part of NAFTA, which was supposed increase trade and flow of goods, which I think it did, but did nothing to restrict the power of the two powerful organized crime gangs that collude to suck the lifeblood from Canadian consumers: Canada Post and Customs Canada. Basically, any package that goes through them risks getting both a tariff from Customs and a handling fee from Post (generally $8 for any package they "have" to open). This also adds considerable delay (literally two months for my Aces & Eights book) to the shipping time.
Now if the company on the U.S. side knows what they are doing, they can fill the forms out in a way that significantly increases the odds of getting it through. I have heard that Noble Knight may be such a company but I have yet to experience it myself.
And don't even get me started on the Canadian distribution companies. They pretended that Aces & Eights didn't exist. For the government-sponsored cartel, I can see their motivations, but when the private sector is just as lame you're really left astounded. I mean don't they want to sell stuff?
Quote from: TonyLBThat, indeed, sounds very dramatic. But ... what happens next? Does the drama come from whether or not you gave the witness a really close shave, or left some stubble at the neckline? Or is a combat about to break out in the barber-shop?
I can't tell you. It depends on what the PCs do and how the dice fall. That's how it is in the west, my friend.
I mean there are plenty of rules for gunfighting and combat. It could break out into full-blown combat or it could be a tense psychological standoff where the baddies threaten the witness and the barber PC demonstrates his coolness by succesfully continuing to shave while this is all going on.
Quote from: walkerpI can't tell you. It depends on what the PCs do and how the dice fall. That's how it is in the west, my friend.
I mean there are plenty of rules for gunfighting and combat. It could break out into full-blown combat or it could be a tense psychological standoff where the baddies threaten the witness and the barber PC demonstrates his coolness by succesfully continuing to shave while this is all going on.
Okay ... my questions aren't getting through here.
Why would I want to play a barber or a whore, rather than (say) a
gunfighter?
You seem (in your first post) to be pitching the system on the basis that it makes that a valid choice. But then your examples are leading to "And then it'd be really cool and dramatic ... if you were a gunfighter ... you're sorta screwed if you're a barber or a whore, though."
I'd like a sense of what a full scene looks like where the barber (or the whore) gets to do something uniquely cool.
Well, outside of the system, you'd want to play a barber or a whore because you think that would be fun to play.
Inside the system, as I said, both careers have specific goals built into them, around opening your own business, expanding your business. Whenever you achieve those goals, you gain BPs, which can then be spent on increasing your skills (any skills, though it could be those involved with your chosen career path).
I don't know if that is still not answering your question. There is nothing in the game that will inherently motivate a whore to be the best whore, besides desire for gaining BPs. But successfully using your Seduction skill (I think that's the appropriate skill; I don't have the book here) will increase your influence over clients, your reputation (both in-game stats) and your earnings thus giving you more ability to rise up out of being a simple whore and achieving madam-hood or whatever it's called.
But this game is designed to just let you do the things that people did in the old west. It's up to the GM and the actions of the players to turn them into exciting situations.
Quote from: TonyLBYou seem (in your first post) to be pitching the system on the basis that it makes that a valid choice. But then your examples are leading to "And then it'd be really cool and dramatic ... if you were a gunfighter ... you're sorta screwed if you're a barber or a whore, though."
Well in that situation you are sorta screwed if you don't have a gun. Actually, in Aces & Eights there is a good chance that you are also sort of screwed even if you do have a gun. :D As I said, the game is dialled in quite realistically. Maybe the barber recognizes that the main bad guy has a certain amount of vanity and appeals to that, gets him to sit in the chair for a haircut. A whore could use her charms to get him to put his gun down.
Walker -
I've had noble knight send stuff to Canada to a guy who paints minis for me there twice, no problems either time.
A&8 selling out so quick tells me that it's at least possible for a company other than WotC or WW to make the traditional hobby distro method work for them even today, though it's not easy. I'm glad for the Kenzer guys, it's cool when you gamble on a dream and come up aces.
On the shipping side- before I returned to academia, I ran a shipping department for a high tech company. The two hardest countries in the world to ship to from the US were Canada and Thailand. I love Canada (I grew up on the border as a kid) but Canadian customs is a bitch.
As far as the game goes, Walkerp are you going to run a campaign wherein playing a barber or a whore are viable character choices? Definitely not my kind of thing, I mean why go with the wild west at all, why not just do modern day Vegas?
Quote from: TonyLBOkay ... my questions aren't getting through here.
Why would I want to play a barber or a whore, rather than (say) a gunfighter?
To give you another perspective: being a barber or a whore gives you a motivation to be in the Wild West. Being a gunfighter is what lets you stay there and advance your agenda. Any character can become a well-skilled gunfighter - in fact, the professions don't come with default skill setups at all, if I'm reading the system right. The professions instead provide means of gaining experience points from what you do in your day job as well as what you get up to in your Wild West adventures - and in fact, what you get up to in your adventures can help you achieve things in your profession.
Essentially, each profession gives you a checklist of things to do as you progress in that profession. You have to do them more-or-less in order, and you get bigger XP bonuses the further you progress down the list (although the different achievements get progressively more difficult). Barbers, for example, give XP for:
- Setting up their business.
- Buying a lot to put the barbershop in.
- Operating the business for a month.
- Building a permanent storefront.
- Hiring an apprentice or employee.
Most of that is going to cost money - hence the adventures - and as well as providing colour and flavour for what your character is doing in downtime, it also gives the GM plenty of opportunities to tie your character's profession into the adventure in colourful ways. Say some mean hombre comes into your barbershop and starts making trouble: you're going to want him to get the hell out of there, because he's not just being an asshole - he's threatening your source of XP!
Okay, that's clear enough- but what if I was just a drifter? what if my main profession is killing folks and taking their stuff, or, perhaps, bounty hunting or law enforcement? Is there room for that in the game? I mean one of the appealing aspects of the WW is that it's wide open- staying centered in one place just doesn't appeal to my pathetic Clint Eastwood wish fufilment fantasies.
Another question: totally unrelated- I've been thinking about running a wild west/horror game; would this system do it well?
And one more- I'm pretty up to speed on the real history of the west, would it be a problem to use it as a setting as opposed to the official game universe?
Quote from: AosOn the shipping side- before I returned to academia, I ran a shipping department for a high tech company. The two hardest countries in the world to ship to from the US were Canada and Thailand. I love Canada (I grew up on the border as a kid) but Canadian customs is a bitch.
Thank you for that data point. Us Canadians are such pushovers and we fear conflict. Sometimes I wonder if I'm insane when I scream about Customs and get nothing but "bit of a hassle at the border, eh?". So it's nice to know that the perception is similar from the other end.
Quote from: AosAs far as the game goes, Walkerp are you going to run a campaign wherein playing a barber or a whore are viable character choices? Definitely not my kind of thing, I mean why go with the wild west at all, why not just do modern day Vegas?
They definitely will be viable character choices. My simple thoughts at this point is to run it like a total sandbox. Characters can do whatever they want. Stuff will be going on in the town and around. That stuff will get into the characters' mixes and vice versa. I'll probably set the "stuff" up at the beginning with player input, so I'll have things that I know the players are interested in. So you can totally play a barber or a whore, but a typical game will not be just you cutting hair or turning tricks. If you don't go out and make stuff happen, it's going to come to you. You can also focus on being a gunman if you want. I'll let the players drive that. That the game lets the players choose among such a wide range of paths is one of the things that appeals to me.
I think the setting itself is enough of an appeal to the players to feel that it is significantly different than modern day Vegas. Also, the wild west has lawlessness and early stages of development that allow for much more adventure potential than modern day Vegas (assuming it's realistic).
Quote from: AosOkay, that's clear enough- but what if I was just a drifter? what if my main profession is killing folks and taking their stuff, or, perhaps, bounty hunting or law enforcement? Is there room for that in the game? I mean one of the appealing aspects of the WW is that it's wide open- staying centered in one place just doesn't appeal to my pathetic Clint Eastwood wish fufilment fantasies.
Totally. Some of the other profession paths are Bounty Hunter, Lawman, Outlaw, Soldier, Spy, Trailblazer (man, I just saw that, how cool is that). I'm particularly interested in the more mundane side of the game, but the rules and chargen definitely addresses just being a badass.
As far as staying in one place, that's just me again. I'm thinking about having it take place in a single town for the sandbox idea (and to have some unifying factor among the players: geography) but there is a big hex map with lots of open space to discover stuff.
Quote from: AosAnother question: totally unrelated- I've been thinking about running a wild west/horror game; would this system do it well?
Depends on the horror. If you wanted to do something "realistic" along the lines of Dead Man or horror based on human atrocity (like the slaughter of the natives) you could do that. But anything truly supernatural I think would not work at all. There is nothing for magic or monsters and the mechanics are fairly unflexible in terms of power scale.
Quote from: AosAnd one more- I'm pretty up to speed on the real history of the west, would it be a problem to use it as a setting as opposed to the official game universe?
Not at all. It's something like 32 pages and completely removable. The only way the setting impacts on the mechanics is in rolling up the background of your character. There is a table that dictates land of origin that has the alternate political entities in it. You could just change that to real-world places, substitute the alternate ones with their real-world equivalents (like the CSA would just be the South) or take it right out. The game universe I believe was just designed so that real-world history wouldn't interfere with your campaigns.
Thanks-
I'm all about the Trailbalzer.
Quote from: walkerpI'm particularly interested in the more mundane side of the game .
Why is this? Seriously, I just don't get it.
Quote from: AosWhy is this? Seriously, I just don't get it.
Just taste, that's the bit that kept me reading the thread.
The West is a dangerous place, a party of a barber, tailor, rancher and bargirl could be quite interesting. There wouldn't be many gunfights, but that would just mean the party would have to politic hard to get their way...
Quote from: AosWhy is this? Seriously, I just don't get it.
In general these days I am leaning towards playing the mundane or at least the mundane facing the extraordinary, but that's a different thread. As far as Aces & Eights goes, I think Balbinus got it right. To me, the fun in roleplaying comes in the details. It's what makes me care about my characters. The wild west is a setting where people didn't have a whole lot and everyone was struggling to succeed. Finding a teeny bit of gold, getting a job, staying out of trouble, those could make major differences in your success or failure. Owning a horse is a major deal. That just appeals to me.
Combat, too. While I love the over the top insane action set piece, really no movie can capture the intensity of a real fist fight. Obviously, those are ugly things and you don't want to see or be involved in too many of those. But sometimes I want a game that tries to capture that, where getting punched in the face in the middle of town and then having a pointed boot stuck into your ribs while you roll around in the dust (or you doing it to someone else) is a major part of a gaming session. Think about that seen in Unforgiven when Gene Hackman kicks the crap out of Richard Harris. That's intense!
I feel like Aces & Eights is the best system I've seen to capture that. I feel like these guys at Kenzer were trying to capture that, rather than designing for a certain type of gameplay or a certain mechanic. They just put together whatever they thought would achieve that kind of atmosphere and play. On paper, so far, it seems to be working. I have to roll the dice to find out for sure.
Quote from: WarthurTo give you another perspective: being a barber or a whore gives you a motivation to be in the Wild West. Being a gunfighter is what lets you stay there and advance your agenda.
That perspective is, for some reason, much easier for me to get excited about. Thanks!
Quote from: walkerpIn general these days I am leaning towards playing the mundane or at least the mundane facing the extraordinary, but that's a different thread. As far as Aces & Eights goes, I think Balbinus got it right. To me, the fun in roleplaying comes in the details. It's what makes me care about my characters. The wild west is a setting where people didn't have a whole lot and everyone was struggling to succeed. Finding a teeny bit of gold, getting a job, staying out of trouble, those could make major differences in your success or failure. Owning a horse is a major deal. That just appeals to me.
Combat, too. While I love the over the top insane action set piece, really no movie can capture the intensity of a real fist fight. Obviously, those are ugly things and you don't want to see or be involved in too many of those. But sometimes I want a game that tries to capture that, where getting punched in the face in the middle of town and then having a pointed boot stuck into your ribs while you roll around in the dust (or you doing it to someone else) is a major part of a gaming session. Think about that seen in Unforgiven when Gene Hackman kicks the crap out of Richard Harris. That's intense!
I feel like Aces & Eights is the best system I've seen to capture that. I feel like these guys at Kenzer were trying to capture that, rather than designing for a certain type of gameplay or a certain mechanic. They just put together whatever they thought would achieve that kind of atmosphere and play. On paper, so far, it seems to be working. I have to roll the dice to find out for sure.
I could totally see a Doc Holiday character with this game. Starts out as a dentist. Then becomes a gambler.
Quote from: RoninI could totally see a Doc Holiday character with this game. Starts out as a dentist. Then becomes a gambler.
There you go. Perfect example.
Quote from: TonyLB......."And then it'd be really cool and dramatic ... if you were a gunfighter ... you're sorta screwed if you're a barber or a whore, though."
Well - that just makes sense. If You're a whore - you get screwed for money.
Tho, if you wacth
"Deadwood" - they can still be movers and shakers in a town and get into some awkward adventures.
- Ed C.
I like that gunfighters will have a hard time on other lifepaths. Again with Unforgiven--Gene Hackman trying to build that freakin house . . .
This is a very sweet looking game.
It sounds like Kenzer has done a damn good job on this product, I'm not really a western fan, but I want to play this game.
Quote from: RockViperIt sounds like Kenzer has done a damn good job on this product, I'm not really a western fan, but I want to play this game.
I was really impressed at Gen Con. You can tell a lot of time & consideration went into this product. Especially aesthetically, had few peers at Gen Con (in the book, not booth babe, division).
Quote from: AosOkay, that's clear enough- but what if I was just a drifter? what if my main profession is killing folks and taking their stuff, or, perhaps, bounty hunting or law enforcement? Is there room for that in the game? I mean one of the appealing aspects of the WW is that it's wide open- staying centered in one place just doesn't appeal to my pathetic Clint Eastwood wish fufilment fantasies.
Yes, there's plenty of exciting gunfighty professions as well as the more mild-mannered professions. I'm at work right now but ISTR that the more "safe" professions tend to pay out less XP than the more dangerous professions, so there's the payoff.
QuoteAnother question: totally unrelated- I've been thinking about running a wild west/horror game; would this system do it well?
It will handle the Wild West stuff just fine, to a quite realistic extent. You will probably have to graft on your own supernatural stuff, and perhaps come up with combat silhouettes for nonhumananoid monsters.
QuoteAnd one more- I'm pretty up to speed on the real history of the west, would it be a problem to use it as a setting as opposed to the official game universe?
No problem at all, so far as I can see.
Quote from: BalbinusJust taste, that's the bit that kept me reading the thread.
The West is a dangerous place, a party of a barber, tailor, rancher and bargirl could be quite interesting. There wouldn't be many gunfights, but that would just mean the party would have to politic hard to get their way...
Actually, I think such a party would be entirely able to get in just as many gunfights: as far as I can tell your gunfighting skill is more-or-less independent of your profession, since the profession is just an XP source. How else is the rancher going to deal with those cattle rustlers, the barber and tailor going to handle the people trying to run their business out of town, and the bargirl going to stop brawls?
I didn't think I'd ever buy a game like this again, but I did and I think it is excellent - even, dare I say it, great value for money.
I'd love to see another historical game done in this sort of detail - preferably a period that has not really been touched on very much - say a Napoloeonic "Sharpe" type game or a naval "Hornblower" one.
Simon
Quote from: Simon WI didn't think I'd ever buy a game like this again, but I did and I think it is excellent - even, dare I say it, great value for money.
I'd love to see another historical game done in this sort of detail - preferably a period that has not really been touched on very much - say a Napoloeonic "Sharpe" type game or a naval "Hornblower" one.
Simon
Talk to Clash!
Can anybody compare Coyote Trail to Aces & Eights? I'm especially interested to find out if either of them is more suitable to a sandbox where the PCs can wander a big hexmap full of boomtowns, reservations, lonely canyons, and gold mines.
Quote from: jrientsCan anybody compare Coyote Trail to Aces & Eights? I'm especially interested to find out if either of them is more suitable to a sandbox where the PCs can wander a big hexmap full of boomtowns, reservations, lonely canyons, and gold mines.
Seconded on that request. I'm curious about Coyote Trail, having heard good things but never focused enough to actually take a look at it.
Quote from: Simon WI'd love to see another historical game done in this sort of detail - preferably a period that has not really been touched on very much - say a Napoloeonic "Sharpe" type game or a naval "Hornblower" one.
Me too. This is why I was tempted to say that Aces & Eights is the future of gaming. I'm being a bit facetious, but I love the idea of designers picking a certain period and making a game around that period, using whatever system bits and mechanics work to capture that. But also really focusing on the details, career paths and skills that make that period unique. Not worrying about unified mechanics or balance or any of that stuff.
Quote from: jrientsCan anybody compare Coyote Trail to Aces & Eights? I'm especially interested to find out if either of them is more suitable to a sandbox where the PCs can wander a big hexmap full of boomtowns, reservations, lonely canyons, and gold mines.
Well, I have them both. I hadn't really looked at them from the point of view of a comparison. Coyote Trail is far simpler (77 pages to the 400 of A&E). I like them both, for different reasons, although I've yet to play either.
I'd probably go with A&E for a long-term campaign where characters are fully fleshed out and you want them to grow with a real feeling of existing in your game-world. I'm looking to run it with the players initially playing a cattle trail-team, following one of the cattle trails from Texas and having mini-adventures and side-plots along the way. A&E looks like it really needs a lot of work put into it to get the best out of it.
If you don't want to put as much work in, then I'd say Coyote Trail all the way....I like the 'Colonial Record' add on too....
Simon
Quote from: stu2000I like that gunfighters will have a hard time on other lifepaths. Again with Unforgiven--Gene Hackman trying to build that freakin house . . .
This is a very sweet looking game.
Speaking of Gene Hackman - think about him in "The Quick and the Dead." This is a guy who started out as an average Joe and rose to become the "master" of an entire town. But you know he didn't do it just by killing everyone and taking their stuff. He hired henchmen, bought land, had a house built, etc etc etc. The main characters in Deadwood are similar - start small, become big.
Aces & Eights is designed specifically for that kind of "power brokering." Come into town with just the shirt on your back and get a job, make contacts, and rise to power so eventually you're the sheriff, mine owner, mayor, saloon owner, etc etc. And your profession can change every week if you want it to - you're not limited to a specific class.
Eventually, you'll want to start hiring NPC henchman and send them out to do your dirty work, since a bullet doesn't get any less deadly.
If you want to just run gunfights, bank robberies and posses every week, the system will certainly let you do it. But it's got the ability to do so much more.
Oh, man. I could actually get sold on this game the way this is going.
Thanks for checking in, Mark. Can you tell me a little more about how a typical 'adventure' might go for a beginning type to start you up the power brokering ladder, and give a couple examples of subsystems that tie into this?
Quote from: Mark PlemmonsIf you want to just run gunfights, bank robberies and posses every week, the system will certainly let you do it. But it's got the ability to do so much more.
Hi Mark, thanks for chiming in.
I think one of the things which I like about Aces and Eights is the way it follows the old Boot Hill division between basic rules, advanced rules, and campaign rules - so those who want the bank-robbery-of-the-week can stick to the basic/advanced rules whereas those who want professions and townbuilding and stuff can use the campaign rules. Was that a deliberate idea taken from Boot Hill or was it just a happy coincidence?
Quote from: Simon WWell, I have them both. I hadn't really looked at them from the point of view of a comparison. Coyote Trail is far simpler (77 pages to the 400 of A&E). I like them both, for different reasons, although I've yet to play either.
I'd probably go with A&E for a long-term campaign where characters are fully fleshed out and you want them to grow with a real feeling of existing in your game-world. I'm looking to run it with the players initially playing a cattle trail-team, following one of the cattle trails from Texas and having mini-adventures and side-plots along the way. A&E looks like it really needs a lot of work put into it to get the best out of it.
If you don't want to put as much work in, then I'd say Coyote Trail all the way....I like the 'Colonial Record' add on too....
Simon
Hey guys, just to be clear, the Coyote Trail Expanded Edition (which contains the Shady Gulch/Black Hills mining town setting, Indian Trails, and four adventure scenarios as well as the rules) is over 140 pages. I think the 77 page version is just the core rules and basic Old West info.
Pete
As impressed as I am with with what I've seen of Aces & Eights, I also want to chime in for Cyote Trail: it's a heckuva a product for a pretty low cost, and if you've bought any of PIG's products, you know the quality you're getting.
Can someone give me an overview of Coyote Trail's rules. I'll go check the site out myself but I can't concentrate right now and find posts easier to absorb.
Quote from: walkerpCan someone give me an overview of Coyote Trail's rules. I'll go check the site out myself but I can't concentrate right now and find posts easier to absorb.
Here are some reviews that go into the system in more detail. Happy to answer any questions, but we should probably start another thread if you want to talk about it more, though.
http://www.therpgsite.com/node/385
http://www.therpgsite.com/node/565
Pete
Quote from: pspahnHere are some reviews that go into the system in more detail. Happy to answer any questions, but we should probably start another thread if you want to talk about it more, though.
http://www.therpgsite.com/node/385 (http://www.therpgsite.com/node/385)
http://www.therpgsite.com/node/565 (http://www.therpgsite.com/node/565)
Pete
Hey, there's my review! Couldn't find it. :raise:
Yeah, if we forked the thread, I have played Coyote Trail, and would be happy to answer questions from the AP side of things.
Quote from: CalithenaOh, man. I could actually get sold on this game the way this is going.
Thanks for checking in, Mark. Can you tell me a little more about how a typical 'adventure' might go for a beginning type to start you up the power brokering ladder, and give a couple examples of subsystems that tie into this?
Sure, but I'll have to keep it short and simple. I'm on vacation this week for my wedding this weekend, and just managed to sneak away for a few moments on the in-laws'-to-be computer. :)
One of my first characters came into town with only $5, no weapons and only the clothes on his back. Got a job shoveling manure to prove my will to work, made some contacts at the saloon while looking for odd jobs. Got a job at a ranch for a while, then got a job as drover riding shotgun on a delivery line between two towns. Other PCs were trying to set up delivery businesses or working as journalists or running for office and together we were able to find out a lot about the competing gangs in the town and which law officers were on the take, and so on. Eventually managed to finagle our PCs into various sheriff and deputy positions.
So we were able to earn $ and Building Points and practice skills (and improve these skills by spending BPs) in different professions while working our way up the political/business ladder. Engaging in gunfights or practicing with our firearms let us improve our combat skill.
None of those particular characters were involved in playing/playtesting the micro-games (except brawling, I think), but if we'd gone prospecting, cattle driving, had a jury trial, etc we would have used those subsystems as well.
Check our our many PDF previews on the Aces & Eights page for a look at all of what I think you're referring to as the subsystems.
Quote from: WarthurHi Mark, thanks for chiming in.
I think one of the things which I like about Aces and Eights is the way it follows the old Boot Hill division between basic rules, advanced rules, and campaign rules - so those who want the bank-robbery-of-the-week can stick to the basic/advanced rules whereas those who want professions and townbuilding and stuff can use the campaign rules. Was that a deliberate idea taken from Boot Hill or was it just a happy coincidence?
I believe all the designers except for me had played Boot Hill back in the day. So Boot Hill definitely had some influence in the western "feel", although we didn't sit down with BH and do a side-by-side comparison/copy with our own A&8 rules ideas. Mostly a happy coincidence. :)
Yeah, my money is on Coyote Trail. The Expanded Edition is great value for the money.
One thing that turned me off Aces and Eights is the promo blurb on the Kenzer site, selling it as the best thing that's happened to the world since Adam first saw Eve naked.
Enthusiastic promotion is to be expected; it's their site, after all. But still, enough of this, this is the bestest, super-duper production value western RPG evar!. Maybe, it is, but let the players be the judge of that.
I understand your gripe, but I also kinda expect the gang that makes Hackmaster to be relatively unrestrained in how they go about things.
Yep, that's classic Kenzerco, slightly tongue-in-cheek, but not entirely.
The game looks like a really fun, fascinating design. Subsystems are underrated and I'm glad that the Kenzer guys at least are following in that line of Gygaxian game design - relatively untrodden and fertile territory (even by Gary since AD&D) IMO.
I am a little turned off by the text that goes with the Shattered Frontier setting, particularly with respect to the CSA - no doubt more of my ponytail-wearing, latte-sipping, effete liberal political correctness distorting my judgment.
Quote from: walkerpYep, that's classic Kenzerco, slightly tongue-in-cheek, but not entirely.
All things considered, tongue-in-cheek "sells" me more on a game than pretentious artsy-fartsiness of other games.
I've always kind of liked KenzerCo and try to find excuses to buy their stuff when I can.
- Ed C.
What I've seen so far makes me nostalgic for those old leatherbound Time life cowboy books my grandfather used to have. Edited to say "ordered".
Quote from: KoltarAll things considered, tongue-in-cheek "sells" me more on a game than pretentious artsy-fartsiness of other games.
I've always kind of liked KenzerCo and try to find excuses to buy their stuff when I can.
You probably know this already but KodT magazine has a regular segment called the Good, the Bad and the Ugly where three characters are statted and described and the backstory that entwines them is laid out. Usually they are given Hackmaster stats, but this month (#130) they are in GURPS. I thought that was cool.
How does Aces and Eights handle social skills and so forth? Are there any personality mechanics?
Quote from: walkerpYou probably know this already but KodT magazine has a regular segment called the Good, the Bad and the Ugly where three characters are statted and described and the backstory that entwines them is laid out. Usually they are given Hackmaster stats, but this month (#130) they are in GURPS. I thought that was cool.
They actually stopped giving HM stats a while back. They give them occasionally, but more often than not they've been done with a "generic" stat rundown that can be used for most systems. I've seen d20 stats, and the GURPS set you mentioned.
Quote from: GunslingerWhat I've seen so far makes me nostalgic for those old leatherbound Time life cowboy books my grandfather used to have. Edited to say "ordered".
"You'll read about John Wesley Harding--so mean he once shot a man just for snoring."
Those were the first things I thought of when I saw the book. :)
Quote from: stu2000"You'll read about John Wesley Harding--so mean he once shot a man just for snoring."
". . .snoring too loud." I'm glad I'm not the only one who has that commercial burned into my brain.
Pete
I have that set of books, or at least a few dozen of them. Or rather, my parents have them, as they are at their house. It seemed like an endless stream of them were made. I first began getting them in the 70s when the commercials first aired. As I recall, they were something like $7.95 each. They were actually really well-done books, with lots of pictures, diagrams, and research. The Cowboys volume even had a genuine chuck-wagon cook's recipe for "Sonofabitch Stew."
Well, thanks to this thread I've got a copy reserved that I hope to pick up tomorrow.
Incidentally, I'd recommend Coyote Trail for sandbox open plan western, it's just way easy for that stuff, I intend to use A&E for more Deadwood style gaming.
Quote from: BalbinusIncidentally, I'd recommend Coyote Trail for sandbox open plan western, it's just way easy for that stuff, I intend to use A&E for more Deadwood style gaming.
Thanks for the advice. Both games look excellent, but I'm not sure I want to buy 2 cowboy games right now.
Quote from: jrientsThanks for the advice. Both games look excellent, but I'm not sure I want to buy 2 cowboy games right now.
How are you on complexity? I bought A&E today and it's looking pretty complex, if that is something you like (robustness as it were) then it's for you, if that sounds a bit of a drag Coyote Trail is well worth picking up.
Coyote Trail also has some excellent supplements by the way.
Oh, Leisure Games in London has at least one left in stock, they do mail order to the states. //www.leisuregames.com
If you order from them, always phone first to ensure they have it as they don't always update the website and you could otherwise find you'd bought it and were waiting for them to restock, and by the time that happened your FLGS would likely have it again anyway.
WalkerP, thanks for bringing this to my attention, before this thread I was ignoring the game.
It's damn good stuff though, any game which recommends hiring muscle in case of trouble once you have some money is already in a very different mindset to 99% of rpgs, the basic concept of arriving with $5 in your pocket and trying to find work and accommodation is miles away from most games.
Hell, it feels frankly more mature, and not in a pseudo-pirates way,
more in a Traveller way.
I have concerns as to whether the complexity will make it practical for me to run it, but so far I'm very impressed.
You're very welcome. I'm sure you would have heard about it eventually, but I'm glad you're interested. The more the merrier.
I very much agree with your assesment of the game, Balbinus.
I have mixed feelings about the complexity of the rules. On the one hand it's partly the empirical crunchiness that appealled to me in the first place. It's tickled my old school funnybone or something. On the other hand, I am loving the quick prep time of games like Savage Worlds and Fate and I've grown used to them. From what I am hearing over on the Kenzerco boards is that it is a bit tricky, but once you run it once, it becomes a lot easier and runs quite efficiently in play. Now a lot of these guys are Hackmasterites, so they may be coming from a perspective that is relatively comfortable with crunch. I haven't heard much about GM prep.
I am planning on starting a campaign in early '08. I'll know more then.
Why are the skills reverse percentile? It seems incredibly unintuitive, is there any reason not to houserule it to a standard roll under percentile system?
Quote from: BalbinusWhy are the skills reverse percentile? It seems incredibly unintuitive, is there any reason not to houserule it to a standard roll under percentile system?
Here's the official answer from the Rules Q&A (http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31596) on the Kenzerco site:
QuoteSKILLS
Q: The design of the skill system has me perplexed. Most systems that use a percentile based resolution are of the roll under skill mastery level = Success philosophy. In Aces & Eights the system is exactly the opposite. Success = roll over skill mastery level. This leads to a situation where a rank amateur in diplomacy will have his skill mastery level listed as 90%, this seems really counter intuitive.
A: Although it might appear counter-intuitive on your sheet, it runs faster and easier during play because it moves the math to character generation from game play. You roll and ADD bonuses, instead of rolling and DEDUCTING bonuses.
I haven't used it in play yet, but I did roll up a character. I had the same reaction at first. It's weird for me to have any absolute limit on a skill, whether it's high or low, so I've never gotten my head around %-based skills in general. But once I started buying skills (a bit of a tricky process in and of itself, actually), the low % being more skilled didn't seem so counter-intuitive to me. You want to roll high, so positive bonuses are good things. That works for my simple mind. I don't know about how it works in play yet.
Hey all,
Someone was kind enough to point out this thread.
Thought i'd point out that our Aces and Eights website is packed with player aids, previews and free downloads. If you have even the slightest interest in the game I encourage you to check out http://www.kenzerco.com/aces_n_eights/
We have a very active A&8 forum where GMs and Players compare notes and share ideas. Not to mention the designers are there to answer questions.
I'd also like to point out we've been posting videos and tutorials to show varoius aspects of the game (currently combat). YOu can find those here: http://www.kenzerco.com/aces_n_eights/gameplay/shotclock.html (there are currently three videos with more to come).
The game has a reputation for beng very 'complex' but it really isn't all that bad. As the tutorials demonstrate.
For example most of the micro games (such as prospecting, chases, trials etc) need not be dealt with until they come up in your game.
And with combat you can start with the basic rules in a matter of minutes. Then add further complexity with advanced rules as you and your players become comfortable with the system. You can basically pick and choose which rules you want to use without breaking the system.
In fact that's what I personally love about the game. It lends itself really well to house rules and tweaks.
One more thing on career paths. As Mark pointed out you are never restricted to any one profession. YOu can change hats (literally) as often as you want. Just like people tended to do in the real west.
Wyatt Earp for example was a buffalo hunter, lawman, prospector/miner, saloon owner, faro dealer etc. he went where opportunity led him.
So the barber character mentioned earlier in this thread might be a barber by day but also running for Mayor, have a seat on town council, part owner ship in a mine etc.
I suspect many beginning campaigns will deal with robbing banks involve lots of gun play. That's fine. The book presents full fledged miniature skirmish rules if that's your cup of tea.
But RPG itself was designed with the long term campaign in mind.
One option --- characters becoming involved in a community (or even founding a town from scratch). Delving into politics. Starting new businesses. Buying land and building on it.
There are of course others
Anyway, always good to see a lively discussion of A&8.
We put a lot of heart and soul into the game so yes we're very proud of it and the fact it's doing so well.
So hopefully you can forgive us if we act the proud parents and boast from time to time on our webiste. ;)
Game on!
Jolly, welcome! Keep up the great work on KoDT! Big fan! And you guys should be proud of Aces & Eights--it's a beautiful product!!!
Quote from: walkerpHere's the official answer from the Rules Q&A (http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31596) on the Kenzerco site:
I haven't used it in play yet, but I did roll up a character. I had the same reaction at first. It's weird for me to have any absolute limit on a skill, whether it's high or low, so I've never gotten my head around %-based skills in general. But once I started buying skills (a bit of a tricky process in and of itself, actually), the low % being more skilled didn't seem so counter-intuitive to me. You want to roll high, so positive bonuses are good things. That works for my simple mind. I don't know about how it works in play yet.
It helped me during playtesting to think of the Skill Percentages as my percentage chance to FAIL.
Once I made that mental connection it was never a problem again (I'm dyslexic so numbers are always throwing me for a loop). ;)
Quote from: Zachary The FirstJolly, welcome! Keep up the great work on KoDT! Big fan! And you guys should be proud of Aces & Eights--it's a beautiful product!!!
Thanks. Great site you have here. Not sure how I missed it all this time but I'll definitely be poking around. ;)
Quote from: JollyRBThanks. Great site you have here. Not sure how I missed it all this time but I'll definitely be poking around. ;)
Poke carefully. Some things shouldn't be awakened around here. ;)
Jolly, another question on A&8: from everything I've seen and from looking through the book, this seems like a Full Game--plenty of sub-systems, extra content, etc., etc.
What, if anything, do you see as coming out for support for
Aces & Eights? Anything we'd recognize as statted out locales from
Cattlepunk? :D Possible adventure paths, after a fashion? It seems like an awfully complete game, and I just didn't know what you guys had in the wings. And if you do plan on future products with it, do you think the design quality will hold up with what you've had so far, and will it take on a more economical cast, perhaps? Thanks!
Quote from: Zachary The FirstWhat, if anything, do you see as coming out for support for Aces & Eights? Anything we'd recognize as statted out locales from Cattlepunk? :D Possible adventure paths, after a fashion? It seems like an awfully complete game, and I just didn't know what you guys had in the wings. And if you do plan on future products with it, do you think the design quality will hold up with what you've had so far, and will it take on a more economical cast, perhaps? Thanks!
One would think it's a complete game at 400 pages. But the Old West is such a huge canvas -- we realized early on we could never cover it all. SO we did the best we could.
We have several supplements in the works. Adventures, a book of NPCs, a Town Supplement (including rules for running business, getting involved in politics, building structures, etc). A GM screen. And a bunch of stuff I'm probably forgetting at the moment.
A&8 is a very serious/gritty game --- we didn't want to make too many references to KODT/Cattlepunk starting out to keep that point clear.
But down the road we're hoping to do some other settings for the rules. I'd personally love to see a one off setting book for CattlePunk. But it's just an idea on paper at the moment. We haven't made any firm plans to do it just yet.
We're reprinting the A&8 core rule book and we have been listening to our customers and are providing more options this time around.
The same premium edition will be avaialble again (Hard back, leathered/tooled cover).
But we'll also be offering a Soft Cover version (full color through out just like the HC version). I don't recall the price but I think it'll be in the $29.00 range.
In addition for those players who don't need the full 400 page book we'll be offering a Player's Book -- which will include all the characer generation, skills, talents, quirks/flaws etc from the core rules. Probably the gun section and the alternative history stuff. I don't have an exact break down but we're looking at a full color soft cover book in the 20 dollar range.
So that should help folks' pocket books who are on a budget.
First time out the gate it was something of a gamble. We suspected there'd be a market for a detailed old west RPG but obviously we couldn't be sure.
So a lot of the planned supplements and so forth had planned were put in a holding pattern until the verdict was in.
I'm biased but I think everything we're working on currently is on a par with the core rule book.
But don't expect a "Supplement of the Month Club" with A&8. These products will be slowly popping up over a course of months. Not weeks.
With everything else in the fire we're also working on HackMaster 5th Edition. Our goal is to give it the same level of treatment we gave A&8. (meaning it's at leat two years out).
Man oh man... this does sound like an utterly cool game, and in exactly the way Balbinus described in another thread, a propos creativity toolbox... too bad Noble Knight pwns my cash and sword & sorcery pwns my imagination right now.
Quote from: JollyRBWe're reprinting the A&8 core rule book and we have been listening to our customers and are providing more options this time around.
Wow, you sold out the first run already? That's pretty good going, congrats.
QuoteThe same premium edition will be avaialble again (Hard back, leathered/tooled cover).
But we'll also be offering a Soft Cover version (full color through out just like the HC version). I don't recall the price but I think it'll be in the $29.00 range.
As much as I love my leather-bound copy of Aces and Eights, this is probably a sensible idea. You might even get people buying both - one for the bookshelf, one for playing with.
Personally I'm pretty jazzed about the game. I really like the idea of a classless game where you can change "professions" as you want. Also, the mini games are great. I especially love the one on brawling, and that's how my campaign is going to start, with a big bar brawl. The mechanics use poker chips of various colours depending your ability scores and you can "bet" them every round to affect the strength of your attack, it's accuracy, and your endurance. All in all, a pretty cool system and makes for a different kind of fight rather than "roll a D20 to see if you hit". I really recommend checking it out.
Also, if you're interested in seeing how a game might so, you might want to check out the kenzerco forums... there are some "play by post" games going on there that are interesting reads...
Quote from: theemrysPersonally I'm pretty jazzed about the game. I really like the idea of a classless game where you can change "professions" as you want. Also, the mini games are great. I especially love the one on brawling, and that's how my campaign is going to start, with a big bar brawl. The mechanics use poker chips of various colours depending your ability scores and you can "bet" them every round to affect the strength of your attack, it's accuracy, and your endurance. All in all, a pretty cool system and makes for a different kind of fight rather than "roll a D20 to see if you hit". I really recommend checking it out.
Also, if you're interested in seeing how a game might so, you might want to check out the kenzerco forums... there are some "play by post" games going on there that are interesting reads...
Do you have a link to the fora? That would be useful actually.
Most games are classless incidentally, that ain't a new thing, though the minigames approach is unusual and looks well done.
Quote from: BalbinusDo you have a link to the fora? That would be useful actually.
Most games are classless incidentally, that ain't a new thing, though the minigames approach is unusual and looks well done.
Sure... //www.kenzerco.com/forums is the high level... Just look down for Aces and Eights.
(I recommend the other areas as well though if you have any interest in Kalamar or Hackmaster)
Yes, I know a lot don't have classes and I was a big fan of Shadowrun. I just find it works well for a "lethal style" of play. A&8 is one of the first games with HP still in it that I felt was realistic from a combat perspective and wounds... Now, I'm just saying this is my opinion and what style I like... :)
Quote from: WarthurWow, you sold out the first run already? That's pretty good going, congrats.
Thanks. We were obviously pretty excited about that. Word of mouth and buzz from those who had purchased it sold this one.
Marketing has always been our weak suit. Although we DID do a better job with A&8 than we have on past projects as far as getting the information out there.
Quote from: BalbinusDo you have a link to the fora? That would be useful actually.
Here you go http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=173
Quote from: JollyRBMarketing has always been our weak suit. Although we DID do a better job with A&8 than we have on past projects as far as getting the information out there.
The slick website dedicated to the game (http://www.kenzerco.com/aces_n_eights/) and the steady flow of beautifully laid out pdf preview downloads definitely helped keeping my interest in the game high. It's very important to give the perception of progress and development to us rpg fans.
Quote from: theemrysSure... //www.kenzerco.com/forums is the high level... Just look down for Aces and Eights.
(I recommend the other areas as well though if you have any interest in Kalamar or Hackmaster)
Yes, I know a lot don't have classes and I was a big fan of Shadowrun. I just find it works well for a "lethal style" of play. A&8 is one of the first games with HP still in it that I felt was realistic from a combat perspective and wounds... Now, I'm just saying this is my opinion and what style I like... :)
Fair enough re classes and classless games, sometimes folk don't know, you know?
I'm not personally into Hackmaster, though I know it gets a lot of love.
Have you tried an A&E combat yet incidentally? If so, how did it go?
Quote from: BalbinusFair enough re classes and classless games, sometimes folk don't know, you know?
I'm not personally into Hackmaster, though I know it gets a lot of love.
Have you tried an A&E combat yet incidentally? If so, how did it go?
I haven't played HM myself yet, but I played a lot of AD&D and do enjoy the "old school feel". I really like the enhancements they've made. That being said, I still do like 3.X and that's what I'm still using right now... of course, my time soon will be all A&8. :)
I've only used a bit of the combat so far. I got a few of my friends to have a quick couple of gun fights as an intro before making up "real characters" to play a campaign. As they suggest in the book we started with some of the basic rules and will add the rest in as time goes on rather than do too many at once to start. It went pretty well. The shot clock was fun as they players investigated with aiming different places and as they both took cover at the edge of a building it made it interesting to cover the sillouette and see how it went. It moved quick and lots of shots were exchanged due to accuracy and range. They started to realize that keeping a few round and running up while the other guy was loading was very handy. One of them for some reason always got dropped by groin shots, even when that's not where the opponent was aiming. :)
Seriously though it was a fun system for that and I see it getting better as the advanced rules and shotguns are introduced. It moved pretty quick once you get the hang of it and I'm looking forward to using it more.
Oh, I'll also add that combat is nice and lethal. Even though you get 20+1d4 hp to start (everyone) and guns only do 1d6+1 damage or so (depending on gun of course), penetration really ramps it up (rolling max on die makes you roll again and add on). Also, wounds are very much dependent on damage done rather than HP total (although that affects your penalties as well). For example, there are rules for broken bones, internal bleading, being knocked unconcious, permanent maiming, etc. Also, if you're playing an extended campaign, there's good chances of infection and such as well. Just because you have 24 hp to start doesn't mean a 5 hp shot won't take you down depending on where you get hit...
I had to reorder it because of a stockage error. :( I don't really have any knowledge of the company other than thumbing through my brothers Hackmaster books. Though the reason he owns Hackmaster, is because they gave him a free Players handbook at GenCon a number of years back. That was nice. I think I can validate the purchase as my only western themed game. Can't wait to get it.
Is the shot clock overlay removable from the book to place over multiple silhouettes or is it a chart within the book?
It's already removed. There are two of them and they are slid in next to the inside back cover.
Quote from: BalbinusHave you tried an A&E combat yet incidentally? If so, how did it go?
I decided to register to answer this question for you.
I ran two A&8 campaigns already* and I've learned that combat is lethal just like it would be in real life. A shotgun blast to the face at 10' will smudge a person unless they're very, very lucky and some sort of strange circumstance intervenes and aids them from certain death.
The Basic Rules are fine for the first session (long enough to understand the basics of the shot-clock and whatnot), but after that you'll probably want to add some of the more Advanced Rules. The Advanced Rules are modular and each and every part can be added or ignored at whatever pace you and your group are comfortable with. For example, after the first session we added Tactical Movement, Wound Severity, and Damage Penetration to the game. Slowly but surely we added more and more rules until we were playing almost the full game. But the beauty of A&8 is you don't need to use every rule to get the most out of the system. We ignored Facing, for example, and our game was fine. So combat can be as simple or complex as you and your group want. Without using Wound Severity or Damage Penetration it's possible to do a more cinematic Western, where the PCs can take a bullet and keep going. But factor in Wound Severity and a 9 point shot to the arm, despite you having 23 Hit Points, will still break your arm, cause bleeding, force you to drop everything you were holding, and lodge the bullet.
So basically combat is what you want it to be, much like the rest of the game. The rules are very modular. Hell, we even started ignoring the Skill Masteries and whatnot and just making all skill rolls straight percentiles.
*The first one ended when my girlfriend's character, a natural born Chiseler (a flaw in the game), decided that she was taking all of the money the group robbed from the bank and heading to Texas to open a bar. The other PC wouldn't have that, so they shot it out. The entire fight lasted about 3 seconds (combat is in tenths of a second)... shotguns at close range are nasty.
-=Grim=-
My group consists of a one-armed gunslinger, a would-be journalist, an escaped slave and a snake oil salesman who is a Master Brewer.
They literally stepped off the stage with the clothes on their back and $5. Only one of them even had a gun. They set about finding work. The snake oil guy ingratiated himself to the town doctor and got a contract to create "tonics" for him. He also wangled a deal to produce tequila for a local restaurant. The escaped slave decided upon a personal crusade to clean up the town as a vigilante-by-night..which immediatley caused him to come into conflict with one of the local gangs. he also got a job as cook and manservant for the aforementioned doctor...until he wound up making an absolutely stunning diplomacy roll and got hired on as a deputy! The gunfighter also got a deputy job. The journalist has so far written three articles for the local newspaper as a freelancer and has stolen $125 from the participants in a poker game :) As a result of the black deputies actions, the local gang in question planned to basically lynch every black person in the town...which led to a spectacular gunfight. The characters didn't get scratched but they killed the gang leader and killed or captured five of his men...which only means they managed to make some serious enemies as the gang was a lot larger than those people, and includes some highly connected citizens...
The game started on June 29th, 1868. The events detailed above took us up to July 2nd.
Everyone dreads the 4th of July coming up...as a lot of people in this town don't share the United States' enthusiasm for that day...
[EDIT] I might add that all of these events came directly from the character's actions..I had only the book, the list of sample NPCs in said book and a map...they drive the story. It was awesome.
Allen
Grimjesta, Allensh, kickass stuff, thanks for registering to post it.
Wow sounds like you have the makings of a great campaign going there.
Quote from: Allensh[EDIT] I might add that all of these events came directly from the character's actions..I had only the book, the list of sample NPCs in said book and a map...they drive the story. It was awesome.
Allen
That's how my A&8 campaign usually goes. Very little in the way of prepared adventures. THe characters always end up doing the unexpected and I run with it. Though I do keep several adventure ops/hooks handy just in case.
In my current campaign we just wrapped up a trial of a local gang member (in which one player acted the the prosectuor and two other players were wittnesses again the gang member).
He's set to hang next session but there may be a few surprises. ;)
Quote from: Allensh[EDIT] I might add that all of these events came directly from the character's actions..I had only the book, the list of sample NPCs in said book and a map...they drive the story. It was awesome.
That's actually how the vast majority of my game went. The first campaign I tried to write it out like a regular RPG session, but after a few sessions I realized that A&8 is so character driven (both NPC and PC) that it's best to roll with the punches and let the PCs drive the story completely. After all, people went West to forge their own destinies and start over, so it's natural to let the PCs do the same.
My game used to be three players and me as GM, but I found myself liking the depth of character development that I didn't bother looking for a replacement when we lost the third player.
But werd, we're always happy to answer questions on this game over at the forums, and I like what I see around here as well (w00t! No cuss filter! PUNK RAWK!) so I'll answer any others here too.
-=Grim=-
Based on all of the discussion in this thread, I am looking forward to getting a copy of A&8 as soon as possible!!
Quote from: cmagounBased on all of the discussion in this thread, I am looking forward to getting a copy of A&8 as soon as possible!!
Yeah, I'm sold too...ordered my copy today....was thinking about running Boot Hill's "Ballots and Bullets" module with it...that one was always a good time....anyone have any thoughts (those that know A&8 and the Boot Hill module in question)?
Quote from: rcsampleYeah, I'm sold too...ordered my copy today....was thinking about running Boot Hill's "Ballots and Bullets" module with it...that one was always a good time....anyone have any thoughts (those that know A&8 and the Boot Hill module in question)?
Good module. Should lend itself well to A&8 considering most players will wanting to pursue careers and get involved in the community.
Politics (and corruption) should open a lot of adventure opps.
I'm sure you could lift it from Promise City and set it in Lazaurus with very little trouble (should you have a mind to do so).
Regarding Boot Hill "Ballots and Bullets" module...
Quote from: JollyRBGood module. Should lend itself well to A&8 considering most players will wanting to pursue careers and get involved in the community.
Politics (and corruption) should open a lot of adventure opps.
I'm sure you could lift it from Promise City and set it in Lazaurus with very little trouble (should you have a mind to do so).
Thanks for the input...I had a question regarding A&8, somewhat in comparison to Boot Hill. One rule (this is my rememberance of the rule, at least) that I always found interesting in Boot Hill was I think Quick Draw/Fanning the Hammer in a duel. Basically, I think you kept -20 or something off your quick draw skill, and as long as your number was still higher than your opponents, you were able to get a shot off(or multiple shots) before they would be able to return fire. How does A&8 simulate the gunfight in the street/quick draw situation?
Thanks in advance,
Rich
To summarize briefly, Aces & Eights combat occurs in Counts (instead of segments, etc) which are equivalent to 1/10th of a second. So the GM/players would just count up 1, 2, 3, 4... and you act on the appropriate Count.
Each action takes a number of Counts, and some actions are slower/faster than others (and some have bonuses/penalties to Accuracy because of this).
For example, drawing and cocking a pistol takes 5 Counts, bringing it to bear (aiming) takes 4 Count, and so on. So if my initiative is 6, my pistol is aimed and I can fire on 15 (6+5+4). Cocking and firing a pointed pistol (2nd+ shots) takes 5 Count. So my 2nd shot would got off on 20, then the 3rd on 25, then the 4th on 30 (3 seconds of game time have passed).
Fanfiring doesn't require that 4 Count of bringing to bear/aiming and also gives a -2 Speed bonus to the 2nd+ shots. Hipshooting also doesn't require aiming, so you can fire faster. Of course, you have Accuracy penalties because you're shooting more recklessly.
Yea, just to clarify what Mark said - there are no "rounds" in A&8. The count is always moving up 1/10 of a second at a time. Gunfights at "high noon" are interesting events, especially since your speed is affected by not only talents and stats, but how many gunfights you've been in, whether you're using your signature weapon, etc.. It's great.
I hope all of you who made the purchase like the game and get involved with the HMA when A&8 events start up. I just warn you all. I'm a mean shot with a rifle. ;)
-=Grim=-
I'm liking it now because it's finally in my hands. My first impression is that they managed to sneak an RPG into a cowboy book, Time Warner mixed with 1st ed. D&D. The only thing that I wondered from my quick glance is why are shotguns more expensive than pistols and rifles? Is it a reflection of the time period?
Quote from: GunslingerI'm liking it now because it's finally in my hands. My first impression is that they managed to sneak an RPG into a cowboy book, Time Warner mixed with 1st ed. D&D. The only thing that I wondered from my quick glance is why are shotguns more expensive than pistols and rifles? Is it a reflection of the time period?
Some of the prices reflect the differences in history and gun technology in this setting, I would think.
I might add that it gets even more interesting when you add in the effects of beng out in the middle of nowhere..that gun that costs $18.75 in Fort Worth might go for $100 in Lazarus because of the difficulty in getting it to the town to sell in the first place.
Allen
Quote from: AllenshSome of the prices reflect the differences in history and gun technology in this setting, I would think.
I might add that it gets even more interesting when you add in the effects of beng out in the middle of nowhere..that gun that costs $18.75 in Fort Worth might go for $100 in Lazarus because of the difficulty in getting it to the town to sell in the first place.
Allen
Very true. There are mechanics about how much things cost depending on how far they are from a railhead (or easy access to goods). Sure can change the landscape...
We need Colorado Charlie Utter to establish a freight line :)
Allen
Ok first of all its all your faults!:p I just called my FLGS and had them set A&8's aside for me. It really sounds good to me. And I gotta say the level of support with Jolly and Mark coming to another board even. Is just amazing.:)
Quote from: RoninAnd I gotta say the level of support with Jolly and Mark coming to another board even. Is just amazing.:)
Yeah, but the real question is:
How do they feel about bacon? :)
Very, very crispy.
So my copy of A&8 is on the way. It was knowing that there are rules for price varying by distance from the rails that sealed the deal.