A system, or setting, where you liked everything about it, except for one thing, and that one detail was enough to ruin it for you.
Go. And explain why.
World of Darkness. I try so hard to like it. I do. I want to like it. I want to join in and play these games, but there is something about it that doesn't sit right.
Let me try and explain: It takes itself too seriously.
Is that a thing? The tone.
"The God Machine" is a derivative mix of Kult and The Matrix. It tries to reinvent itself post-Old/Classic World of Darkness, but it is still too damn serious. I digress.
It takes itself too seriously and for some strange reason there are these codified statistics that might be a good idea for some, but for me I cannot understand why they are in the game. Perhaps that comes down to a writing style/rulebook thing? I don't even like the writing style and rulebook structure, so that's three things.
But it's the serious nature of the WoD.
High production values, big fan-base with lots of buy in. Me? I am left cold because I cannot take it seriously. It pushes too hard. It's just too "edgy teenager from the 90s" still doing what it does 20 years down the road.
I just can't go there.
After saying all that, I do like some of it. I like some of the ideas. I like that it is a success, that the PDFs have groovy links to other chapters in them, the digital delivery is great. I like that you can be a normal human investigator, or maybe a monster. But the tone ruins it.
In Shadowrun, it is the rules. The setting, especially the old-school Shadowrun setting (2049-2055), is ULTRACOOL. But the rules are over-complex, and are VERY difficult to convey to new players who are amazed by the setting and want to play (such as my ex-fiancée when I introduced her to RPGs several years ago).
I do actually hate the Vampire: the Requiem for one single thing. And it's so small you could just tell me to ignore it, but I really can't.
Thing is, I'm not sure how anyone can play VtR.
The thing that's bothering me is the nature of the vampiric Requiem. Aparently, after one becomes a vampire, one can never again experience anything new or have a fresh emotion. If you feel anything at all, it's just a murky flashback to a time you experienced a similar emotion back when you were alive.
Um.
That's not a character I can play. That's not a character, period. That's a fading ECHO of a character. It's like one of those chinese ghosts that are composed of two souls, and the bit that's the person leaves. There's no horror because there's nothing capable of being horrified. Hell, any horror you might feel has nothing to do with the actual situation you're in, since it's just a vague memory of being afraid while you were alive, so the fact that you're a vampire can never be horrific since your living self naturally has no memory of being horrified that he or she was a vampire.
So how the hell are you supposed to roleplay something like that? Do VtR players simply ignore this bit and make characters who are actual persons?
TL;DR
how do i play character who can never never have a new experience
Quote from: golan2072;746537In Shadowrun, it is the rules. The setting, especially the old-school Shadowrun setting (2049-2055), is ULTRACOOL. But the rules are over-complex, and are VERY difficult to convey to new players who are amazed by the setting and want to play (such as my ex-fiancée when I introduced her to RPGs several years ago).
It's a simple dice pool system. Roll a number of dice equal to your skill or attribute vs a target number.
Yeah, there are some little details, but the basics are quite simple
Skills in D&D.
I understand perfectly well what Gygax was trying to accomplish with thief skills, especially when every new thing had its own fiddly subsystem anyway, but I wish he'd thought of some other way to do it.
Because, while skill systems can be OK, later D&D editions with their "skills and levels" is the worst of both worlds. Am I competent because I'm a 10th level fighter, or am I a boob because I don't have "Ride Horse"?
Not to mention the infinite granularity of skills so you have such luminary choices as "Use Rope" in a pre-industrial society, coupled with brain-dead referees who interpret the rules to mean that if you don't have "Use Rope" you can't even tie your horse to a tree or tie your shoes, and that if you don't have the "Run" skill the five year old child has to roll every turn to see if they fall and hurt themselves while playing "tag".
Political overtones. In any RPG. Yeah, yeah I get it - the bright and noble leader and enlightened goodfolk are are suspiciously a lot like Obama and #Occupy, and the evil cyborg death machine and his brainless minions are like Bush and Republicans, and their propaganda system is a veiled jab at fox news.
Fuck you
Regardless of system, of how it's tilted, it's an instant turn-off unless it's taking jabs at everyone (Paranoia, Underground)
I will throw your shit away if I see that in it, or if I make the mistake in playing it either quit or flip the script insofar as the GM doesn't think I'm griefing.
When Jackie Chan takes "Use Rope" it's as a weapon proficiency.
In Rolemaster Standard System, Race and Training Packages get cheaper the more expensive they are. There's a sliding scale where the bigger a package gets the bigger the discount is.
I get that they were trying to wedge high elves into the same character creation system as hobbits. But the problem is that said high elves are like level one thousand and one. They've been around since just after creation. They've been to the undying lands and learned the arts at the hands of the Valar. They've rebelled and returned to Middle Earth to make war on a fallen god and survived the price of that victory. Hobbits haven't.
Similarly a special forces trooper is better than a raw recruit because of years of experience and training. Not because it's easier to learn all that stuff because being a special forces trooper is in and of itself makes it easier to learn. Heck by this standard Superman might be built on as many points as Robin.
Quote from: Axiomatic;746543So how the hell are you supposed to roleplay something like that? Do VtR players simply ignore this bit and make characters who are actual persons?
Pretty much. And in Blood and Smoke - which is essentially Requiem 2nd Edition - that setting feature got taken out. I think Onyx Path realised how it was something which would either wreck play or never actually be used in play.
Quote from: thedungeondelverPolitical overtones. In any RPG. Yeah, yeah I get it - the bright and noble leader and enlightened goodfolk are are suspiciously a lot like Obama and #Occupy, and the evil cyborg death machine and his brainless minions are like Bush and Republicans, and their propaganda system is a veiled jab at fox news.
Interesting - can you give some examples?? I've just never encountered anything that gauchely allegorical, so I'm curious!
Quote from: Warthur;746599Pretty much. And in Blood and Smoke - which is essentially Requiem 2nd Edition - that setting feature got taken out. I think Onyx Path realised how it was something which would either wreck play or never actually be used in play.
I could never quite get it why those five covenants would work together and not be at full war. I guess the covenants are more functioning like the clans from the Masquerade. But to me it seems like the Anarchs and the Camarilla with a bunch of religious groups are all working together in one city. It doesn't make any sense to me. They hate each other, but still they form coalitions and share the city positions (Prince, Sheriff, Senechal) amongst each other.
Plus some of those splats are just pure evil. Especially the Lancea Sanctum in the first edition. It has "burn the witch" written all over it. I find those guys just plain annoying. Being worried about unwanted embraces not out of practical reasons, but simply because it's against the will of God. Pffff! :rolleyes:
What completely ruins a setting for me is when the "canon lawyers" completely take it over. It becomes almost next to impossible to use such settings without being a canon "expert" yourself.
Examples of such settings:
- Star Wars Expanded Universe
- prime Star Trek before the 2009 reboot (whether tv + movies, or the "novelverse")
- Forgotten Realms
New World of Darkness all the way. This is what happens when you let freelancers run amok. You get inconsistency after inconsistency. Plus none of it makes any sense at all. Especially Mage: The Awakening. That game is truly stupid.
Absolutely love Monte Cook's Numenera, except that the GM doesn't roll any dice. I am usually the GM for my D&D group, and half of the fun for me is rolling dice.
Quote from: Steerpike;746607Interesting - can you give some examples?? I've just never encountered anything that gauchely allegorical, so I'm curious!
Blue Rose establishes its "Xians=evil" shtick right out of the box, and stew up the pan/poly/lbgtwtfomgbbq/trans factions as defenders of all that is Right and Pure - its so sickening I could swear Colleen Doran wrote it...
What I've read of eclipse phase establishes a pretty similar tone regarding politics with what I've read thus far...
OH yes. Eclipse Phase fills that bill about political overtones. Though you can can balance it in the campaign out of the box, and make it not run like a leftie moral allegory setting, the overtones are there in the book (I laughed out loud a few times reading it).
kender and tinker gnomes for DL
drizzt for FR. Way overdone
Anime art for Exalted.
oh, let me add skills for 3e. Believe it or not, I'm not bothered by feats because I don't play with powergamers.. But skills seems to be an overly complex and very time consuming part of character creation/advancement for something I feel can just as easily be done via role playing or an ability check. If something takes up half your character sheet, it better be worth it. Imo of course
Quote from: thedungeondelverBlue Rose establishes its "Xians=evil" shtick right out of the box, and stew up the pan/poly/lbgtwtfomgbbq/trans factions as defenders of all that is Right and Pure
Ah, gotcha. A little heavy-handed, eh?
I'm curious - how'd you feel about historical games with politics in them? Like say a WWII game or a cold war spy game or whatever, where there might be a lot of political content. Is it the presence of politics that rubs you the wrong way, or is it more the idea that political ideas are getting smuggled into a fantasy game through thinly veiled allegory that particularly bugs you?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;746637Blue Rose establishes its "Xians=evil" shtick right out of the box, and stew up the pan/poly/lbgtwtfomgbbq/trans factions as defenders of all that is Right and Pure - its so.sickening I could swear Colleen Doran wrote it...
What I've read of eclipse phase establishes a p. Similar tone regarding politics with what I've read thus far...
what do you expect? The game was designed specifically to be that way. If the tagline "romantic role-playing" didn't tip you off, the pre-gens in the back of the fast start guide should. 4 characters: one gay humanoid male, two humanoid females, one of who is "bonded" romantically to the fourth PC: a male feline.
Quote from: Steerpike;746649Ah, gotcha. A little heavy-handed, eh?
I'm curious - how'd you feel about historical games with politics in them? Like say a WWII game or a cold war spy game or whatever, where there might be a lot of political content. Is it the presence of politics that rubs you the wrong way, or is it more the idea that political ideas are getting smuggled into a fantasy game through thinly veiled allegory that particularly bugs you?
The latter.
So The Price of Freedom (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/47675/the-price-of-freedom) would be on that list as well?
It looked like warmed over Red Dawn nonsense to me... though I suppose if it had been set in the '50s and had aliens as a stand in for the Soviets I would have wanted it.
There are a couple of games where the author's tone is so pretentious or nasty towards other games that it just poisons the whole fish tank.
There's a wargame/RPG I like called 5150: New Beginnings... but the author's introduction disses RPGs (despite his game pretty much being one)... and his insistence on calling PCs 'Stars' just keeps on bugging me. I'm about ready to take a black crayon and cross out every place in the book where he does that.
Quote from: Simlasa;746682So The Price of Freedom (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/47675/the-price-of-freedom) would be on that list as well?
It looked like warmed over Red Dawn nonsense to me...
It's Red Dawn: The RPG, yup. Not sure it was entirely serious. AIR one of the pregens is a Maoist Communist who doesn't think the invading Soviets are radical enough.
I think this is a case of your not liking the entire premise of the RPG, rather than one thing about it though?
Quote from: S'mon;746708I think this is a case of your not liking the entire premise of the RPG, rather than one thing about it though?
Oh, no, it's not on my list as I've never seen it beyond the cover. I only meant to add it to theDungeonDelver's list of politically pointed RPGs... if he'll have it.
I don't think I'd mind Price of Freedom if played as a satire of extreme Right Wing 'patriotism' and paranoia in the Reagan era... regardless of its actual intent.
Mage: The Ascension sounded really great till I got to its explanation of how magic worked... the power of belief nonsense, on loan from the crystal-toting New Age folks. That bit really sank the ship for me.
The rule about fat people being able to swim better in
GURPS. Not that that's unrealistic, but I don't want to play a game that thinks that level of realism is relevant.
The bizarro probability curves in
Savage Worlds that actually overlap with each other in ways that make upgrading the dice you roll a joke sometimes.
The cheesecake art in Mongoose
Traveller is
nearly a deal breaker. I actually don't have anything against cheesecake art in other contexts, but when I'm trying to sell skeptics on this system the authors' juvenile pandering doesn't help.
I hate descending armor class so much it
nearly puts me off of
Stars Without Number and I can't stop acidly joking about it when running older editions of D&D.
Once in a while I'll think of running some version of
Werewolf, then remember, "Oh yeah, most of the people I pitch this to will think it's a thinly veiled attempt to explore furry themes. I don't feel like getting
that reputation."
Quote from: Sacrosanct;746644oh, let me add skills for 3e. Believe it or not, I'm not bothered by feats because I don't play with powergamers.. But skills seems to be an overly complex and very time consuming part of character creation/advancement for something I feel can just as easily be done via role playing or an ability check. If something takes up half your character sheet, it better be worth it. Imo of course
Every time I start to adapt the D20 system for another genre/setting I get to the skill section and give up while making this face:
(http://i.imgur.com/EF0s9vF.png)
QuoteEvery time I start to adapt the D20 system for another genre/setting I get to the skill section and give up while making this face:
I'd just modify that to 'Every time I start to adapt the D20 system for another genre/setting I give up'.
I loved 3rd edition for a time, especially in computer form, but the thing is so labyrinthine and has so many assumptions tied expressly to doing what it does and nothing else, that I still find the determination of the age to shoehorn anything and everything into D20 a bit bizarre.
The only game in the whole D20 glut I think actually works is M&M3, and that's only because after three editions they've basically written out everything from D20 other than the fact that you literally roll a D20.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;746654what do you expect? The game was designed specifically to be that way. If the tagline "romantic role-playing" didn't tip you off, the pre-gens in the back of the fast start guide should. 4 characters: one gay humanoid male, two humanoid females, one of who is "bonded" romantically to the fourth PC: a male feline.
Meh, Blue Rose is a fairly good take on a certain genre of fantasy.
Most of what people bitch about are features of the genre so it's a little silly to aim the guns at the game.
Surprisingly, I can't really think of a setting or game that I've dropped because of This One Thing. If it's just a few silly things, I take a hammer to them and tinker around until I'm satisfied with the result. If it's too much work, I diss it.
The closest I've come is my 15-year moratorium on Palladium because character creation is a PITA. But every now and then I go back into the workshop and try to come up with something to make it simpler.
Quote from: Piestrio;746734Meh, Blue Rose is a fairly good take on a certain genre of fantasy.
Most of what people bitch about are features of the genre so it's a little silly to aim the guns at the game.
sorry if i was unclear, but that's what I was getting at. That the game was specifically designed that way. It would be like complaining there is too much of an apocalyptic feel to Twilight 2000.
The gaining of power in Lords of Creation was too much for me. It was AD&D on steroids. I forget the details but by level 12 or so you could create your own world and rule it with an iron fist.
First edition Traveller. Essentially all characters were assumed to be ex-military and when they mustered out they rolled randomly on a chart. One guy could get a free used laser pistol, the next a free used spaceship.
It doesn't ruin it for me but I wish stats in GURPS had more range. The vast majority of the characters I've seen have stats between 9 - 14. They all look alike. Oh, I've seen a few fantasy warrior types with 16 or 17 Strength but those tend to be outliers (the character would have nothing else going for him.) Occasionally a brave soul will drop a stat to 8, beyond that is too gimpy.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;746644oh, let me add skills for 3e. Believe it or not, I'm not bothered by feats because I don't play with powergamers.. But skills seems to be an overly complex and very time consuming part of character creation/advancement for something I feel can just as easily be done via role playing or an ability check. If something takes up half your character sheet, it better be worth it. Imo of course
I love castle and crusade because they pretty much did get rid of the skills. Instead you get to pick a primary attribute, or two if your a human. You class picks a primary attribute as well. Plus your class has a primary attributes as well. So none humans can get two primary attributes while humans get three.
All skill rolls relating to the primary attribute has its DC reduce by six I believe. So if you were facing a 18 DC challenge to track a orc and wisdom is a primary attribute that challenge is now 12 DC. Add in the fact that your level is added to the skill roll along with your attribute bonus. We are looking at d20 + level + attribute mod.
I just love how that game streamlined skills like that. What it basicly does is allow only six skills, but because they are so diverse it gives off the illusion that you have a unlimited amount of skills that you can do.
Whereas I hate the Siege Engine though when it comes to C&C it's hardly the only thing that Ruins it for me.
I love those games that just give me the tools to play and let me do my own thing.
I'm no fan of authors who feel to further their own agenda/beliefs that have nothing to do with the game, but rather they are using the game as their own soapbox.
The single thing in an RPG that ruins it for me?
Players.
Quote from: Simlasa;746714Oh, no, it's not on my list as I've never seen it beyond the cover. I only meant to add it to theDungeonDelver's list of politically pointed RPGs... if he'll have it.
I don't think I'd mind Price of Freedom if played as a satire of extreme Right Wing 'patriotism' and paranoia in the Reagan era... regardless of its actual intent.
Actually I still have the original boxed-set of the
Price of Freedom, and while the main setting was a Soviet invasion of the U.S., there were variants that included alien invasion a 'la the TV series "
V". I never had the later edition so don't know if they included that as an option.
Yes, it was "
Red Dawn" the RPG, but as a teen growing up in the 1980s, it struck a chord with me and my friends, as did other games like "
Delta Force". It was not satirical at all - if you want that, "Paranoia" is the game for you.
Here's a few examples of "games I like but.." I can think off, ordered chronologically.
1. Here's a relatively obscure one: Bughunters for Amazing Engine. At the time I liked the idea of an Aliens bug-hunt style game but I never liked the idea that the characters were all Paranoia style clones. And yes AE wan't a great system, but it wasn't as bad as people made it out to be and it had a interesting range of settings.
2. Jonathan Tweet's Omega World is probably the best take on Gamma World out there. Unfortunately it was never a standalone game and I could never get past the inelegance of a mutant power defined as "like Cleric spell X".
3. Agents of Swing the Fate spy game was a disappointment. I like Fate and I was very much in the market for a long time for a spy-fy game, something in the line of Man from UNCLE or Mission Impossible. Instead it turned out to be more Austin Powers inspired which I never liked. In particular replacing the traditional Fate ladder terms with words like "Groovy" was a complete turn off. I binned the book (print copy) not long after purchase.
4. I like the new Dr Who game. I'm not a massive fan of the show but it's a good system and a colourful universe. I would have bought a copy but my hang up is I really don't like games illustrated with photographs. I find them off-putting. WEG Star Wars gets pass for some reason. They managed to pull it off.
Bug Hunters characters weren't Paranoia style clones. They were Blade Runner style replicants.
Bug Hunters is Blade Runner verses Aliens verses Terminator verses Predator.
With a better budget and execution it might have been the great gritty near future movie sf alternative to Traveller's space opera.
In Rogue Trader the PCs are the most important members of a centuries (if not millenniums) old Dynasty with incomparable power and influence over one or more space sectors, and they command a ship with over 10 thousand crew members. Yet, every time you find a new planet or place of interest, the game expects that the most important people aboard the ship go out to dungeon crawl the damn thing.
That really turned the game down to me after several months of GM'ing it. I later realized that the best way to fix that goes going Ars Magica mode: the players have two characters, a more powerful character using the RT as written, and another minor character they can take down to explore planets and stuff like that. But I also came to dislike the system quite a bit, so I don't see myself playing it again, at least not for now with so many cool games I bought and haven't even tried yet.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;746798In Rogue Trader the PCs are the most important members of a centuries (if not millenniums) old Dynasty with incomparable power and influence over one or more space sectors, and they command a ship with over 10 thousand crew members. Yet, every time you find a new planet or place of interest, the game expects that the most important people aboard the ship go out to dungeon crawl the damn thing.
It's the Star Trek model. Plus, this is 40k, where authority equals arsekicking.
Anyway.
"Cheesecake" art (Which is a stupid term anyway) turns me off ("Free cheesecake with every book", though, would sell me on more RPG books). I'm not averse to it in general, but it's an easy and boring art choice, that betrays a lack of imagination and tells me nothing useful about the setting (And no, I don't need to be informed that sexy people exist in the setting, I can safely assume that, thanks).
If the authors are lacking in imagination when it comes to the art direction, if they can't think of anything they want drawn in their game beyond yet another pinup pic, they're probably lacking imagination in other parts of their game, too.
Quote from: Ladybird;746800It's the Star Trek model.
Yeah, that's what people usually tells me. I guess it's not a model that works for me since I don't like Star Trek.
[edit]
Still, doing a quick search on Google it seems that the Star Trek ship had a crew around 200 to 400 people. With that crew size I guess it could be possible for the 10 most important members of the crew to go to land, but in Rogue Trader scale (where you may command fleets of four or more city-cizedships with a combined crew of 200.000 or more, and capable of obliterate entire continents from space), it stills feels weird to me. But I guess that maybe I'm not the target audience for the game, I prefer Dark Heresy a lot more for gaming in the 40k universe (although I still have the problem with the system :S).
[edit]
It was also disappointing that RT didn't have much support regarding your Dynasty and how to manage yourf multi-planetary empire. Maybe it has a supplement for that now, though, I haven't checked the FFG in ages.
Quote from: Ladybird;746800"Cheesecake" art (Which is a stupid term anyway) turns me off ("Free cheesecake with every book", though, would sell me on more RPG books).
Any at all or predominately "cheesecake" art?
Quote from: Maese Mateo;746801Yeah, that's what people usually tells me. I guess it's not a model that works for me since I don't like Star Trek.
Understandable. It's not "realistic". Hell I've heard people put off by it in Star Treck. IIRC, Prime Directive's Prime Teams were a direct attempt ot address the issue.
I can usually buy into it as a concession to playability because (IME) most players don't like portraying anything less than the tippity top of the command chain or totally independent characters. And personally I'm not big on troupe play. I usually prefer having one character to focus on.
On that note, any game book where the author spends more time trashing other games than talking up their own turns me right off.
Quote from: Nexus;746829On that note, any game book where the author spends more time trashing other games than talking up their own turns me right off.
Good point. Any trashing of any other game style turns me off. This includes "D&D sucks in this or this or that way and we fixed it" or "realized its promise" (FUCK YOU: PEOPLE individually realize the game's promise, not YOU, game designer assfuck). This does not include drawing a contrast between what your product offers and what others in your opinion don't, but there's a fine line between doing this in an helpful, straightforward way and going on a rant about how these other products you're comparing yourself to suck to Hell and back. I certainly wouldn't ever make any of our products some sort of stage for a "Dragonlance Sucks!" rant or some such.
The product needs to speak for itself.
Quote from: Ladybird;746800It's the Star Trek model. Plus, this is 40k, where authority equals arsekicking.
Anyway.
Free cheesecake with every book", though, would sell me on more RPG books.
I think as a community and a hobby we've already got enough weight problems, heart problems, and diabetes thanks. Plus, cheese cake is easy to make. Seriously, you pretty much just melt butter and mix it with graham crumbs for the crust and the filling is just cream cheese, sugar, eggs, and milk blended up together.
Quote from: Nexus;746829On that note, any game book where the author spends more time trashing other games than talking up their own turns me right off.
This! OMG THIS! There are some writers I know that need to shut up and stop bitching about games that do better than them.
Gimmick dice for me. I know we have plenty of fans of Dungeon Crawl Classics and FFG Star Wars, but for me the use of nonstandard dice that you have to buy seperately is a no-go for me. Primarily because I view it as a barrier for entry to newbie Players.
Quote from: Snowman0147;746837This! OMG THIS! There are some writers I know that need to shut up and stop bitching about games that do better than them.
For me, this is a big reason I don't get into allot of the indie games as most of their writers seem obsessed with telling me how wrong everyone else is instead of why I should be playing their game.
Only one thing? For Eclipse Phase, it would just be that collection of paper between the front and back covers. Every time I read it, I find something new that upon reflection makes no fucking sense.
Quote from: zend0g;746842Only one thing? For Eclipse Phase, it would just be that collection of paper between the front and back covers. Every time I read it, I find something new that upon reflection makes no fucking sense.
Eclipse Phase is like the rhubarb of RPG. Gamers seem to either love it and hate it with a passion.
Well, speaking indirectly of Eclipse Phase, 'transhumanism' is pretty much a 'one thing' that will instantly turn me off a game.
Quote from: RPGPundit;746508A system, or setting, where you liked everything about it, except for one thing, and that one detail was enough to ruin it for you.
Go. And explain why.
Alignment, in any system, because it represents no one with any actual personality. As well, it encourages cardboard cutout characters in my experience. That or it's entirely ignored except for which spells do what regardless of actual behavior. I think it goes beyond good or bad GMing, because in 30+ years of gaming, I've never had a good experience with it at any table (and I don't use it, so mine doesn't count).
Quote from: Nexus;746825Any at all or predominately "cheesecake" art?
It depends. I'd rather not have any, because it's wasted space, but if there's only a couple then I'll just roll my eyes instead of putting it back on the shelf.
Quote from: Nexus;746829On that note, any game book where the author spends more time trashing other games than talking up their own turns me right off.
Yeah. Discussing why another game doesn't work for you and explaining what you've done instead, fine; it helps people work out if your game is something they'd like to try. "That game is entirely crap so you should play my fantastic thing", no, now you're just being a cunt.
Quote from: J Arcane;746870Well, speaking indirectly of Eclipse Phase, 'transhumanism' is pretty much a 'one thing' that will instantly turn me off a game.
I hadn't really thought about it, but yeah I'm the same way.
Quote from: J Arcane;746870Well, speaking indirectly of Eclipse Phase, 'transhumanism' is pretty much a 'one thing' that will instantly turn me off a game.
Quote from: S'mon;746892I hadn't really thought about it, but yeah I'm the same way.
What do you define as Transhumanism in this regard? The body switching stuff, the whole ideology or something else?
Quote from: Nexus;746894What do you define as Transhumanism in this regard? The body switching stuff, the whole ideology or something else?
It makes fundamental assumptions about philosophy of the mind and neuroscience that have zero rational or scientific support as true, solely for the sake of a selfish and nihilistic fantasy, while still dressing up that fantasy as real possible utopian future.
It takes everything about bad science, technofetishism, libertarianism, and utopianism, and mashes them into one big ball of pure fucking stupid, and I hate everything about it, and its supporters even more.
Quote from: Ladybird;746888It depends. I'd rather not have any, because it's wasted space, but if there's only a couple then I'll just roll my eyes instead of putting it back on the shelf.
Thank you. Personally I like sexy art but I can see where it can be overdone like gore porn and combat scenes. I prefer that it is in the context of the setting being illustrated instead of seemingly random inserted for nothing but titillation value. For example the if the illustration of the god/goddess of Love is sexy its less out of context than just some random cheese (or beef) cake.
Its particularly off, IMO when the setting doesn't support it. If you're going to have extensive illustrations of chain-mail bikinis and loin barbarians that should be viable in the setting.
Quote from: Nexus;746896I prefer that it is in the context of the setting being illustrated instead of seemingly random inserted for nothing but titillation value. For example the if the illustration of the god/goddess of Love is sexy its less out of context than just some random cheese (or beef) cake.
Yeah. That sort of stuff is fine (In moderation; I'd want a hideous pic of the god of plagues to balance it out, too), because it's telling me something about the setting. Stuff like, say, WoD splat pics, that's illustrating a "typical" member of the splat, cool.
Boobplate, metallic chaps armour and chainmail bikinis I just don't like in general, because they're stupid concepts (You want to funnel attacks to those extraneous organs like your heart or your lungs, or to wear armour that leaves those precious cartoid arteries unprotected? That won't go well...), but sometimes it works - for example, in our MSH team we've got a former female luchador with superstrength who has since adopted the persona of a barbarian princess after the time we went to - and won! - Eurovision, so now she wears a chainmail bikini stage prop as her superhero costume; but it works because she's not really relying on it as armour anyway (She's hard enough that she could just take most hits from the villains we go up against).
But if your barbarian culture fights unarmoured, okay, give 'em all loincloths and tell me why they do that, and show me a picture of some people who have done a lot of fighting like that and have the scars to show for it.
Quote from: J Arcane;746895It makes fundamental assumptions about philosophy of the mind and neuroscience that have zero rational or scientific support as true, solely for the sake of a selfish and nihilistic fantasy, while still dressing up that fantasy as real possible utopian future.
It takes everything about bad science, technofetishism, libertarianism, and utopianism, and mashes them into one big ball of pure fucking stupid, and I hate everything about it, and its supporters even more.
Before
Eclipse Phase there was
GURPS: Transhuman Space. It seemed that every time I would try to find out about the setting online, instead of answers, I would get transhumanism fans telling me how cool it would be to just let the AI's make decisions for us and how neat it would be to feel a woman's orgasm because we'd be able to download our consciousness into a female body.
It was a turn-off.
Quote from: Ladybird;746898Yeah. That sort of stuff is fine (In moderation; I'd want a hideous pic of the god of plagues to balance it out, too), because it's telling me something about the setting. Stuff like, say, WoD splat pics, that's illustrating a "typical" member of the splat, cool.
Boobplate, metallic chaps armour and chainmail bikinis I just don't like in general, because they're stupid concepts (You want to funnel attacks to those extraneous organs like your heart or your lungs, or to wear armor that leaves those precious cartoid arteries unprotected? That won't go well...), but sometimes it works - for example, in our MSH team we've got a former female luchador with superstrength who has since adopted the persona of a barbarian princess after the time we went to - and won! - Eurovision, so now she wears a chainmail bikini stage prop as her superhero costume; but it works because she's not really relying on it as armour anyway (She's hard enough that she could just take most hits from the villains we go up against).
Different strokes. I can buy into the concepts if they're consistently presented. Allot of the stuff in fantasy wouldn't work in a realistic universe like a single warrior (or a handful) with mostly slightly hyped up HTH weapons in metal armor fighting a magical sentient flying creature ranging from T-rex sized up to Godzilla with a built in napalm (or electricity or chemical weapon, etc etc) launcher and magical spells. But its fantasy and its awesome and fun, so sure Lets do it. I just like some consistency about it.
Quote from: Ladybird;746898Boobplate, metallic chaps armour and chainmail bikinis I just don't like in general, because they're stupid concepts
But surely "stupid" is exactly the point. Sometime silly, glamorous fluff is more fun than serious minded speculation. I mean if you wanted realism and serious alternate reality speculation isn't magic, dragons and elven princess a bad start? Is chain mail bikini really where we draw the line?
Take the spy genre just to show that I am not just bashing fantasy for the sake of bashing fantasy. Sometimes you want the realism of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy other times you might go for James Bond with the cool gadgets, hot Bond girls and theatrically evil masterminds.
In terms both of box office and general gaming appeal I think stupid has a special appeal you perhaps underestimate.
Quote from: Soylent Green;746904But surely "stupid" is exactly the point. Sometime silly, glamorous fluff is more fun than serious minded speculation. I mean if you wanted realism and serious alternate reality speculation isn't magic, dragons and elven princess a bad start? Is chain mail bikini really where we draw the line?
Take the spy genre just to show that I am not just bashing fantasy for the sake of bashing fantasy. Sometimes you want the realism of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy other times you might go for James Bond with the cool gadgets, hot Bond girls and theatrically evil masterminds.
In terms both of box office and general gaming appeal I think stupid has a special appeal you perhaps underestimate.
Yeah, I admit it. I like "stupid" when its also cool looking and awesome. I have very good SOD suspenders and with must genres you're already swallowing allot of bull for the sake of entertainment probably allot of you're not aware of. Which isn't say people cant have different tolerance levels than mine, just voicing my own preference. I like the fanciful aspects of setting to follow its own internal logic as much as possible. Don't show me loincloths and chainmail bikinis primarily in a system where its suicide without a reason or have it coexisting with more realistic versions of armor for no reason whatsoever.
Quote from: Soylent Green;746904But surely "stupid" is exactly the point. Sometime silly, glamorous fluff is more fun than serious minded speculation. I mean if you wanted realism and serious alternate reality speculation isn't magic, dragons and elven princess a bad start? Is chain mail bikini really where we draw the line?
Sure, why not. Some parts of a setting, you just have to suspend disbelief for. Dragons, I can deal with. Bond's hyperglam superspy world, hell yeah. But if you only want to put in stupid glam fluff, okay, I'm not going to buy your thing. Other people can make their own decisions, and the advantage of being grownups is, we all know that our decisions have no bearing or relevance on those of other people!
If I want to see pictures of pretty people, I'm not exactly short of options, and that's fine. If I want to learn about your RPG setting, there's not that many other places I can go, so every picture of someone dressed up as "sexy mighty warrior", "sexy lab engineer", "sexy third apprentice to the vizier's deputy", "sexy storm drain cleaner" or whatever (I mean, what the fuck, is it halloween or something?) is space that is telling me "people can be pretty!" rather than anything about your game world. I don't need to be told "people can be pretty"! I know that already. I don't know what the uniform of the Dragon Corps of Som'rset looks like. Show me that. That's what I bought your book for.
What if the Dragon Corp's uniforms are sexy? :D
I'm still wracking my brain for an example. It'd have to be something like, "this dish would be delicious if it wasn't for that surprise chunk of bitter melon." Usually I have more than one issue by then.
I'll keep trying to find that ice cram sundae with the "lutefisk cherry" on top.
Quote from: J Arcane;746895It makes fundamental assumptions about philosophy of the mind and neuroscience that have zero rational or scientific support as true, solely for the sake of a selfish and nihilistic fantasy, while still dressing up that fantasy as real possible utopian future.
It takes everything about bad science, technofetishism, libertarianism, and utopianism, and mashes them into one big ball of pure fucking stupid, and I hate everything about it, and its supporters even more.
I think if I thought about it more, this is how I'd feel, too. :D
AIR it hit me one day "Upload your mind to a computer, and live forever? But that's just a
copy - your actual body - with your actual mind in it - is still right there! That's
you!
You are still going to die!" :D
After that I just found the whole transhumanist fantasy silly/annoying.
Quote from: Snowman0147;746628New World of Darkness all the way. This is what happens when you let freelancers run amok. You get inconsistency after inconsistency. Plus none of it makes any sense at all. Especially Mage: The Awakening. That game is truly stupid.
Yeah, it's mostly done by freelancers. Isn't it supposed to be toolkit and therefor as inconsistent as you want it to be? I do see your point though.
Quote from: S'mon;746922I think if I thought about it more, this is how I'd feel, too. :D
AIR it hit me one day "Upload your mind to a computer, and live forever? But that's just a copy - your actual body - with your actual mind in it - is still right there! That's you! You are still going to die!" :D
After that I just found the whole transhumanist fantasy silly/annoying.
Even better when you have to kill yourself to make the copy. It's an elaborate and delusional form of suicide.
Quote from: Nexus;746931Even better when you have to kill yourself to make the copy. It's an elaborate and delusional form of suicide.
There are actually people who spend/t significant amounts of money paying into investment funds and savings accounts that will supposedly pay off when the Singularity comes and they'll all be immortal ...
Quote from: S'mon;746922AIR it hit me one day "Upload your mind to a computer, and live forever? But that's just a copy - your actual body - with your actual mind in it - is still right there! That's you! You are still going to die!" :D
After that I just found the whole transhumanist fantasy silly/annoying.
My exact thoughts on transhumanism. I can go behind the idea of a setting where people transfer their brains (or souls if a techno-fantasy setting) into mechanical bodies (there could be many advantages in doing that), but just creating a copy of yourself when you actually die doesn't sound very appealing to me.
[edit]
Oh, I also agree that I hate books where the authors waste even a single paragraph saying how shitty other games are. If you want me to buy your game, write a good game, don't try to trash other games I like.
Quote from: J Arcane;746933There are actually people who spend/t significant amounts of money paying into investment funds and savings accounts that will supposedly pay off when the Singularity comes and they'll all be immortal ...
I wish I could say I was surprised. Must be nice for the people having their heads frozen after they die to have someone to look at and think "Kooks." Even if it is possible there's no reason to think anyone alive today will be around to see "The Singularity".
The direct brain-uploading I consider to be entirely bunk. The only way I can sort of see computerised brains to give you immortality working is if you had nanotechnological brain cells that acted to support and enhance your organic brain's usual work, and which could dynamically work to replace brain cells which fail to be replaced by the brain's usual regeneration processes. (It's been discovered that, years of neuroscience dogma to the contrary, brain cells do in fact regenerate). So you don't have a sudden "make a mechanical copy, kill the original deal" so much as you have this cell-by-cell transition from all organic to organic with machine enhancement to all machine with no definitive breaking point from one end to the other.
After all, if the "self" is created by the collaboration of all your brain cells working together rather than being contained in any specific cell or subset of those cells - and the regeneration and replacement of brain cells certainly implies that that's the case - then that means that you can't draw a clear line and say "OK, you're no longer your former self if the enhancements have replaced 1% or 10% or 50% or 99% of your old brain." It'd be just like giving your old brain a vastly increased capacity for regeneration.
But that's very different from the abrupt brain uploading that transhumanists go for.
Quote from: Maese MateoMy exact thoughts on transhumanism. I can go behind the idea of a setting where people transfer their brains (or souls if a techno-fantasy setting) into mechanical bodies (there could be many advantages in doing that), but just creating a copy of yourself when you actually die doesn't sound very appealing to me.
Bit of a tangent, here... I'm with you that straight-up mind-copying isn't the same as immortality, but what do you make of the "Theseus Ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)" response to this conundrum?
Imagine that instead of just uploading a copy of your brain whole-hog to a computer, a small section of your consciousness - not even a lobe of your brain, like just a small part - was uploaded onto a computer implant that interfaced directly with your brain and continued to serve the identical function as the replaced part. Wouldn't you say that the consciousness is still fundamentally the same? You still feel the same, think the same. A part of your mind is just "running" on a slightly different type of matter than the rest of it. Over time virtually all of the molecules in our body are replaced at one point or another anyway - you are not made of the same matter as you were when you were born (of course, how could you be? you've grown!).
Then, let's say, a year after the implant, another tiny bit gets the same treatment. Same idea: you feel no different, think no differently, because the implant was modeled to simulate the replaced area exactly, to interface with the rest of the living brain seamlessly. It might not be prone to damage or degeneration to the same degree as the organic components of your brain, but that's about it. It's arguable that the computer part is now just as legitimately a part of your brain as the organic part; your brain is just a bunch of molecules, after all, and the computer part is just a slightly different set of molecules doing the same job.
Cut to years later when your whole brain has been replaced, bit by bit, slowly, over time. Isn't the consciousness fundamentally the "same" consciousness as the original?
Edit: Warthur sort of beat me to it while I was writing. So, what he said.
It's also probably worth pointing out that transhumanists don't necessarily agree on a lot of this stuff, or how it should/will work, and that radical organic life-extension rather than mind-uploading is also an important strain of posthumanism/transhumanism. Transhumanists are not united by a single creed or dogma about how exactly technology will chage and improve the human condition.
Quote from: Nexus;746911What if the Dragon Corp's uniforms are sexy? :D
Then I have learned something about the game world. If it also looks vaguely practical for dragon riding, fine. If it looks like the sort of thing that would be worn briefly before some bom-chik-a-wow-wa "riding dragon style" then it's cheesecake and the book stays on the shelf. Simples!
Well to me transhumanism makes about as much scientific sense as a TIE fighter's sound in space. And don't get me started about the underlying politics of transhumanism. But hey, just like a TIE fighter, it can be fun in a game. I just suspend disbelief and play the game, assuming the incongruities are not thrown into my face for the sake of "making a point about the real world" or some shit like that.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;746930Yeah, it's mostly done by freelancers. Isn't it supposed to be toolkit and therefor as inconsistent as you want it to be? I do see your point though.
It is suppose to be, but they only go half way at it. They kinda don't want to be a 100% toolkit so instead they go for something that is in the middle. In other words they ate cake and want to have cake.
What you get is a thin as cardboard setting with very little canon, but with little freedom to do what you want. God forbid if you go outside the lines cause people will bitch about that. It took a book called Mirrors to fix some of that.
Still the best toolkit game in new world of darkness happens to be hunter. You can ditch the compacts and conspiracies in the book and just make your own stuff. The rules to make your own hunter organizations and endowments are in the core book. Don't like the current professions? You can easily make up your own professions. The monsters are easy to make up as well. With the recent supplement known as Mortal Remains you can just make your own monsters with relying on other other books.
Edit: Then again the Promethean, Changeling, Hunter, Geist, Mummy, and the new Demon are just better books. They do offer the toolkit approach, but without the hang ons that Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage has to suffer through. Even Blood & Smoke fails in comparison to the God Machine Chronicles and Demon: The Descent in my opinion.
Quote from: Benoist;746955Well to me transhumanism makes about as much scientific sense as a TIE fighter's sound in space. And don't get me started about the underlying politics of transhumanism. But hey, just like a TIE fighter, it can be fun in a game. I just suspend disbelief and play the game, assuming the incongruities are not thrown into my face for the sake of "making a point about the real world" or some shit like that.
Well, see, I don't think I actually agree with this, because I don't see where it offers anything to gaming either.
I mean, the biggest criticism of THS is 'OK, so what do I actually do in it,' and EP's response to that was just to say 'make up anything even if it doesn't make a lick of sense.'
Which in theory, I should be onboard for, given some of the stuff I've written, but in practice just winds up looking like purest incoherent RPGnet wankery. Trochee-obsessed gibberish.
Most transhuman settings postulate worlds were all human want is basically solved, and without want, there's little motivation at all. Bruce Sterling's
Schismatrix was one of the least optimistic I know of, and even that was basically Downton Abbey in space for all that actually happened. Lots of fantastically wealthy transhumans being fantastically bored, petty, and spiteful.
Wooo.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;746934My exact thoughts on transhumanism. I can go behind the idea of a setting where people transfer their brains (or souls if a techno-fantasy setting) into mechanical bodies (there could be many advantages in doing that), but just creating a copy of yourself when you actually die doesn't sound very appealing to me.
[edit]
Oh, I also agree that I hate books where the authors waste even a single paragraph saying how shitty other games are. If you want me to buy your game, write a good game, don't try to trash other games I like.
Yeah, I'll never buy another WW product again because of their shitty little "Destroy your D&D books and get a discount on ours" stunt.
Quote from: J Arcane;746958Well, see, I don't think I actually agree with this, because I don't see where it offers anything to gaming either.
I mean, the biggest criticism of THS is 'OK, so what do I actually do in it,' and EP's response to that was just to say 'make up anything even if it doesn't make a lick of sense.'
Which in theory, I should be onboard for, given some of the stuff I've written, but in practice just winds up looking like purest incoherent RPGnet wankery. Trochee-obsessed gibberish.
Most transhuman settings postulate worlds were all human want is basically solved, and without want, there's little motivation at all. Bruce Sterling's Schismatrix was one of the least optimistic I know of, and even that was basically Downton Abbey in space for all that actually happened. Lots of fantastically wealthy transhumans being fantastically bored, petty, and spiteful.
Wooo.
I just assume that the idea that "humans" basically got all they wanted is wrong, in-setting propaganda, just plain bullshit. In EP for instance, between the terrorists and extremists on the outer rim of the solar system, the Jovians, the tensions within the core, the corps playing games with each other, the aliens at the door, etc, I don't think humanity got everything it wanted. It's just another more shoddy level of Cyperpunk to me. It's basically a nightmare disguised as some sort of paradise, and nobody's fooled by it.
As for what the genre brings to my gaming, I guess just the fact of being able to play with ideas like virtual and physical clones of yourself, changing bodies and all that with a thin layer of pseudo-scientific justification is a big part of the fun. Just like technical names of ships in Star Wars or how a lightsaber is supposed to work can provide a justification in the game and a sense of fake depths or "used universe" that wouldn't make any sense in RL. Just like making the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs.
Quote from: jeff37923;746839Gimmick dice for me. I know we have plenty of fans of Dungeon Crawl Classics and FFG Star Wars, but for me the use of nonstandard dice that you have to buy seperately is a no-go for me. Primarily because I view it as a barrier for entry to newbie Players.
This one. I wouldn't touch FFG Warhammer and won't be touching their Star Wars. Funky dice is a design space I'll reserve for boardgames, thanks. It may seem a bit petty considering that classic polyhedrals were the original funky dice, but there are enough alternatives out there that I have the luxury of choice here.
Ahh, the power of labels. All this reminds me to never mention "transhumanism" in my sci-fi games and simply say "really advanced genetic engineering and cybernetics" like we used to. It adds up to the same thing in actual gameplay without everybody getting their philosophy/politics wrath on.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;746963Ahh, the power of labels. All this reminds me to never mention "transhumanism" in my sci-fi games and simply say "really advanced genetic engineering and cybernetics" like we used to. It adds up to the same thing in actual gameplay without everybody getting their philosophy/politics wrath on.
Yeah, I consider myself a transhumanist of sorts, yet very little I've read in this thread bandied about as "transhumanism" corresponds to what it means to me. More of a caricature really, though some bits are closer than others. That said, I have no problem calling transhumanism fantasy gaming, since at it's core, zero to hero (like D&D) and hero to god (possible in some settings as well (and at least one D&D ruleset)) is transhuman (or is it transelvish :-) ) to me as well.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;746960Yeah, I'll never buy another WW product again because of their shitty little "Destroy your D&D books and get a discount on ours" stunt.
Yeah, that was a terrible idea for promoting Exalted 2nd, I'm surprised WotC didn't ask them to stop or just sue them (or maybe they did, I wasn't very active on the internet back then so I wouldn't know).
Since we are on it, to go back on thread: Exalted 2nd Edition. I love the setting, I love the game's premise, I love Solar exalted and it was my favorite game for half a decade, but the system just tired me, I probably should have stayed with 1st Edition, while flawed it was simpler and it didn't have two million Charms (plus, to me, the setting was far better presented than what they did with 2nd Edition). Fortunately, this wonderful piece of Heaven exists (http://kschnee.xepher.net/rpg/exalted/Exalted%20Starter%20Kit.pdf) (to this day I don't know why White-Wolf didn't use that system for the final game, it was way better), which I've been wanting to try with my friends for a while, we just need to find the time to play.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;746971Yeah, that was a terrible idea for promoting Exalted 2nd, I'm surprised WotC didn't ask them to stop or just sue them (or maybe they did, I wasn't very active on the internet back then so I wouldn't know).
Since we are on it, to go back on thread: Exalted 2nd Edition. I love the setting, I love the game's premise, I love Solar exalted and it was my favorite game for half a decade, but the system just tired me, I probably should have stayed with 1st Edition, while flawed it was simpler and it didn't have two million Charms (plus, to me, the setting was far better presented than what they did with 2nd Edition). Fortunately, this wonderful piece of Heaven exists (http://kschnee.xepher.net/rpg/exalted/Exalted%20Starter%20Kit.pdf) (to this day I don't know why White-Wolf didn't use that system for the final game, it was way better), which I've been wanting to try with my friends for a while, we just need to find the time to play.
Actually, speaking of 'one things', this is the one that turned me off of Exalted, right from your link:
QuoteDo not believe what the scientists tell you. The
natural history we know is a lie, a falsehood sold to us by
wicked old men who would make the world a dull gray
prison and protect us from the dangers inherent to free-
dom. They would have you believe our planet to be a
lonely starship, hurtling through the void of space, barren
of magic and in need of a stern hand upon the rudder.
Close your eyes to their deception. The time before
our time was not a time of senseless natural struggle and
reptilian rage, but a time of myth and sorcery. It was a time
of legend, when heroes walked Creation and wielded the
very power of the gods. It was a time before the world was
bent, a time before the magic of Creation lessened, a time
before the souls of men became the stunted, withered
things that they are today.
Quote from: Ladybird;746940Then I have learned something about the game world. If it also looks vaguely practical for dragon riding, fine. If it looks like the sort of thing that would be worn briefly before some bom-chik-a-wow-wa "riding dragon style" then it's cheesecake and the book stays on the shelf. Simples!
I agree with you 100%. I likes me some nekkid ladies as much as anybody, but truthfully, I'm tired of women looking at game books and rolling their eyes. It was a lot easier to get women to play OD&D where the art was so horrible it actively made your eyes look elsewhere.
That's the one thing I really, really HATE about ACKS. The cover picture would have been a GREAT inside illo for the Bladedancer class; I have no problem with women warriors, and I have no problem with women warriors who eschew armor. The ancient Celts had women who did both, much to the Romans' chagrin. "Pardon me, Centurion, there's 3000 angry naked women out here who want to throw javelins at you."
But done as a cover illo, it screams "OH LOOK HERE'S YET ANOTHER FRPG COVER WHERE ALL THE MEN ARE FULLY COVERED AND THE WOMAN IS WEARING A MINISKIRT AND A TITSLING!"
Although as my wife said, "Well, at least she's a little beat up, so you know she can fight."
But I wish the cover had some other art. And yes, it matters whether it's cover versus specific in-text illustration of a class. Context is real.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;746962This one. I wouldn't touch FFG Warhammer and won't be touching their Star Wars. Funky dice is a design space I'll reserve for boardgames, thanks. It may seem a bit petty considering that classic polyhedrals were the original funky dice, but there are enough alternatives out there that I have the luxury of choice here.
Funny, the funky dice used to be part of the draw...
Quote from: J Arcane;746976Actually, speaking of 'one things', this is the one that turned me off of Exalted, right from your link:
I always hated the connection they tried to establish with Exalted as the past of cWoD (and those ignored it). Fortunately, as the line moved on and they realized they didn't need to use that stunt to sell books to WoD fans, they kinda dropped it.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;746979I always hated the connection they tried to establish with Exalted as the past of cWoD (and those ignored it). Fortunately, as the line moved on and they realized they didn't need to use that stunt to sell books to WoD fans, they kinda dropped it.
For me, by the time Exalted passed my desk, I was already long since tired of WW's New Agey, antiscience, neopaganist horseshit, and seeing one more pile of it slapped right on the front of a game it didn't even need to be in was just like 'welp, I'm done.'
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;746962This one. I wouldn't touch FFG Warhammer and won't be touching their Star Wars. Funky dice is a design space I'll reserve for boardgames, thanks. It may seem a bit petty considering that classic polyhedrals were the original funky dice, but there are enough alternatives out there that I have the luxury of choice here.
Another vote here for funky dice being boring to me, it is like hiding the game behind the dice. Supers is another thing.
Oh, yeah, the funky dice thing. Will never play DCC, WHFRP 3e, or FFG Star Wars because of it.
Yeah, because going
d4
d6
d8
d10
d12
BLANK
BLANK
BLANK
d20
is the most natural and logical progression I can think of. :rolleyes:
You don't want to get a whole new set of symbolic representational dice that toss out numbers, ok, but that's not even close to something like a d14 or d16. Christ, it's not the fucking Futhark.
I can understand it with WHFRP 3e and Edge of the Empire (I don't like them for that reason), but DCC? You can just represent the funky dice (which don't even seem to come very often when you read the book) with your regular dice. For example, a d24 is just a d12 modified by a d6 (1-3: +0, 4-6: +12).
Quote from: CRKrueger;747003Yeah, because going
d4
d6
d8
d10
d12
BLANK
BLANK
BLANK
d20
is the most natural and logical progression I can think of. :rolleyes:
You don't want to get a whole new set of symbolic representational dice that toss out numbers, ok, but that's not even close to something like a d14 or d16. Christ, it's not the fucking Futhark.
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. There's a big difference to me between the gimmicky dice with weird symbols specific to one single game you must decrypt during the session, and a d16 or d24 which doesn't work any different from a d8 or d12 and can be used for any type of game, random table, whatever. The weird-shaped dice like d20 or d4 were a huge pull on me when I was a kid. They still are, I guess.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;747000Oh, yeah, the funky dice thing. Will never play DCC, WHFRP 3e, or FFG Star Wars because of it.
Thanks for reminding me. I completely dismiss FFG's Star Wars because of the icon references in the book and the funky dice.
Mouseguard RPG
I really want to like it... I love the setting, the book is just gorgeous... But holy shit Burning Wheel (even the simplified version for Mouseguard) is utter shit... Not only that, but Luke Cranes writing makes me want to punch him... I cant explain why... IT just does...
Any game from Margaret Weis Productions
They put out games for licensed IP that I would have bought in a heartbeat. Firefly, Marvel, Leverage, Supernatural; and then they attach the most goddamned shittiest shitshit of a fucking system to them... Cortex is the only rules system that makes me angry trying to play it... I fucking HATE Cortex in all its forms...
Quote from: CRKrueger;747003Yeah, because going
d4
d6
d8
d10
d12
BLANK
BLANK
BLANK
d20
is the most natural and logical progression I can think of. :rolleyes:
You don't want to get a whole new set of symbolic representational dice that toss out numbers, ok, but that's not even close to something like a d14 or d16. Christ, it's not the fucking Futhark.
They're impossível to find and hard to even order overseas and that's enough of a turn-off for me.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;747021Mouseguard RPG
I really want to like it... I love the setting, the book is just gorgeous... But holy shit Burning Wheel (even the simplified version for Mouseguard) is utter shit... Not only that, but Luke Cranes writing makes me want to punch him... I cant explain why... IT just does...
Any game from Margaret Weis Productions
They put out games for licensed IP that I would have bought in a heartbeat. Firefly, Marvel, Leverage, Supernatural; and then they attach the most goddamned shittiest shitshit of a fucking system to them... Cortex is the only rules system that makes me angry trying to play it... I fucking HATE Cortex in all its forms...
I'll just second these two, with the caveat that not
all the licensed IPs MWP does are all that appealing to me to begin with. (For example, I couldn't care less about Battlestar Galactica and I don't think Supernatural is that interesting specifically as an RPG setting.) Also, I haven't even bothered trying to
play Cortex or Cortex+ as it's already enough of a turn-off
reading them.
Quote from: 3rik;747032I'll just second these two, with the caveat that not all the licensed IPs MWP does are all that appealing to me to begin with. (For example, I couldn't care less about Battlestar Galactica and I don't think Supernatural is that interesting specifically as an RPG setting.) Also, I haven't even bothered trying to play Cortex or Cortex+ as it's already enough of a turn-off reading them.
I like the Leverage game
in theory, the system's like a less-crunchy version of Fate; but the campaign of it I was in crammed two weeks of fun into eight weeks of play, and that's kinda soured me on playing C+ again.
Quote from: Benoist;747005The weird-shaped dice like d20 or d4 were a huge pull on me when I was a kid. They still are, I guess.
They had a pull on me as a kid, but no more. I like the simplicity of 2d6 now.
Quote from: dragoner;747039They had a pull on me as a kid, but no more. I like the simplicity of 2d6 now.
I have a strange affection for the d12
Quote from: Sacrosanct;747042I have a strange affection for the d12
I play lots of games with d10's, these days. I like 'em; enough of a range that adjustments matter without being overbearing, but not so much of a range that they feel overly random. Awkward shape, though.
Whoever invented the d4, though, should be shot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTD6sL8CaVk). Nasty thing.
Quote from: Ladybird;747044I play lots of games with d10's, these days. I like 'em; enough of a range that adjustments matter without being overbearing, but not so much of a range that they feel overly random. Awkward shape, though.
Whoever invented the d4, though, should be shot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTD6sL8CaVk). Nasty thing.
d10s remind me too much of Vampire. But you just shot up my respect chart for making a Top Gear reference :D
Quote from: Brander;746968That said, I have no problem calling transhumanism fantasy gaming, since at it's core, zero to hero (like D&D) and hero to god (possible in some settings as well (and at least one D&D ruleset)) is transhuman (or is it transelvish :-) ) to me as well.
Yeah, my homebrew setting has loads of 'transhumanist' ideas built into it... and most aren't much a stretch from 'bog standard' fantasy tropes.
The funky dice thing in the new Star Wars and Warhammer bug me because they're proprietary and only of use for their specific games, only available from that one company. The DCC dice are just dice, I can use them for whatever I like... and buy them from various sources.
Plus, something about the symbol dice just feel 'gamier' to me... and a step closer to being some sort of FFG boardgame with fuckloads of plastic widgets and cardboard doodads.
I also forgot to add:
Dice Pool Systems
I really dislike Dice Pools... The ONLY one I actually enjoy is the ubiquity System used in Hollow Earth Expedition. The Ubiquity Dice go a long way to making it better.
Character Creation Minigames
3.x and 4e D&D... I really got tired of this pretty quickly... Fine for Computer games... but not at the tabletop...
Settings
I also really dislike settings where the characters are marginalized due to either licensed fiction (Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance), or immutable Metaplot... If the players cant feel like the heroes, then its not worth playing...
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;747021Mouseguard RPG
I really want to like it... I love the setting, the book is just gorgeous... But holy shit Burning Wheel (even the simplified version for Mouseguard) is utter shit...
It feels like a decade's worth of homebrew rules grafted on top of Shadowrun.
Quote from: robiswrong;747058It feels like a decade's worth of homebrew rules grafted on top of Shadowrun.
Even that would have been a better system than what we got...
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;747057I also forgot to add:
Dice Pool Systems
I really dislike Dice Pools... The ONLY one I actually enjoy is the ubiquity System used in Hollow Earth Expedition. The Ubiquity Dice go a long way to making it better.
Word. There are a few other games that are similar to ubiquity. I used to hate all dice pools. Then I figured out that it's all the gimmicks some game designers add that make many of the earlier dice pool games execrable.
NWoD actually went to using a more straightforward dice pool system like ubiquity. Too bad it sucks in other ways.
I can easily ignore a single thing, if its not a systemic issue. I have the magical ability to chop an annoying bit out of a setting and just move on. I have never encountered a setting that already had my interest that suddenly lost my interest due to Issue X, but I certainly have modified canon to better suit my tastes.
Oh god how I hate the funky dice that only serve one game.
Seriously who in the hell gets bored of dice? I been playing new world of darkness games for nine years and I never got bored over rolling a bunch of d10s to see what are my results. I played dungeons and dragons and never got bored at that d20.
No energy weapons in a Sci Fi game that has other "advanced tech" which is less likely than energy weapons. Lasers, particle beams, something. The science IS possible, the biggest hurdle is energy supply, and if you have non-natural wormhole FTL, or the equivalent, energy weapons of some form should be a given./
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;747021Mouseguard RPG
I really want to like it... I love the setting, the book is just gorgeous... But holy shit Burning Wheel (even the simplified version for Mouseguard) is utter shit... Not only that, but Luke Cranes writing makes me want to punch him... I cant explain why... IT just does...
I can get behind this statement
I dont get the idea that d20 skills are to complex or what not. That being said, I do like Microlite 20 with its four (maybe five) skills.
One thing that really turns me off from d20 modern. Hit Points. Serious setting where say a fourth level character can survive a direct full damage hit at center of mass from a .50 BMG? Fuck you D20 modern. Not in my game. I know it can be easily fixed by capping HP's but the fact I have to do that irks me.
Quote from: Ladybird;746940Then I have learned something about the game world. If it also looks vaguely practical for dragon riding, fine. If it looks like the sort of thing that would be worn briefly before some bom-chik-a-wow-wa "riding dragon style" then it's cheesecake and the book stays on the shelf. Simples!
I was mostly joking, :)
But I do think "Cheesecake/Beefcake is , at least to some degree in the eye of the beholder. Like that old bit about pornography "I can't definite it but I know it when I see it." It's one of the reason I avoid the monthly cheesecake threads over there. There's no room for subjectivity and interpretation once something is deemed "cheesecake", it is and don't you dare argue even if you're one of the "victims" of it. And some of the pictures so condemned don't even come close to being suggestive IMO, let alone titillation artwork unless you've got some odd fetishes.
Well with cheesecake it depends on the game. If it is a game that is serious in tone cheesecake is going to be written down as unneeded. It will annoy my a few of my friends. Now if it is a goof ball, or gonzo like game going cheesecake would be fine with me. It is pure fantasy happening in pure fantasy setting.
Though yeah Ladybird I can clearly see your point and what you are coming from. Different tastes and all.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;746963Ahh, the power of labels. All this reminds me to never mention "transhumanism" in my sci-fi games and simply say "really advanced genetic engineering and cybernetics" like we used to. It adds up to the same thing in actual gameplay without everybody getting their philosophy/politics wrath on.
That's a pretty basic definition of Transhumanism, ie. Cyberpunk+.
Most of the things that turn people off Transhumanism are really the "Transhumanism Movement" which means we accept at face value the concept of "The Singularity", a "Post-Scarcity Economy" and that people put as much thought as to the existence and transference of their soul/consciousness as they do their t-shirts today.
The idea that humanity can use it's intelligence to self-evolve is interesting, the rest, yeah, not so much.
Quote from: Snowman0147;747103Well with cheesecake it depends on the game. If it is a game that is serious in tone cheesecake is going to be written down as unneeded. It will annoy my a few of my friends. Now if it is a goof ball, or gonzo like game going cheesecake would be fine with me. It is pure fantasy happening in pure fantasy setting.
Though yeah Ladybird I can clearly see your point and what you are coming from. Different tastes and all.
I think I've head some off experiences. But the women I've game with have mostly liked "Cheesecake/beefcake" art in the setting, played beautiful characters and enjoyed the "stupid" as part of the fantasy aspect of the game/setting. The worst reaction has been ignoring it and picking something else as inspiration. But I haven't had a woman offended or refuse to play game because of it. I didn't know it was even an issue until I saw it come up online.
Sometimes they want to play more down to earth characters, just like anyone but usually, IME, they like to be sexy, powerful badasses that don't take shit from anyone (again, like the guys) as Escapism. And if presented with two images of equal equality :One of comic book Red Sonja and one Brienne from Game of Thrones as woman warriors in a setting they'd probably go more for Sonja as a basis, all things being equal though Brienne is more realistic.
Could be I've met allot of outliers but that is what informs my opinion ont he matter aside from my own tastes.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;746597Political overtones. In any RPG. Yeah, yeah I get it - the bright and noble leader and enlightened goodfolk are are suspiciously a lot like Obama and #Occupy, and the evil cyborg death machine and his brainless minions are like Bush and Republicans, and their propaganda system is a veiled jab at fox news.
Fuck you
Regardless of system, of how it's tilted, it's an instant turn-off unless it's taking jabs at everyone (Paranoia, Underground)
I will throw your shit away if I see that in it, or if I make the mistake in playing it either quit or flip the script insofar as the GM doesn't think I'm griefing.
This has been my biggest pet peeve for a long time. Ok, I get it, if only people that agreed with YOU ran the world we could avoid all human suffering and life would be a constant orgasm. You're so enlightened and wise, yet all you're good for is writing a niche game of make believe, funny how that works...
Deadlands and Shadowrun were almost ruined for me by heavy metaplot. Just give me the setting info and let me run wild with it, I don't give a shit about the metaplot as your group sees it. Metaplot is really just another game group raping your home game with their stupid PCs and NPCs. I see Shadowrun fans arguing over which edition is better, not because of rules, but because in one game's timeline Dunkelzaurous is dead and in another he's the President. I loathe metaplot with the fire of a thousand suns.
Quote from: Nexus;747114I think I've head some off experiences. But the women I've game with have mostly liked "Cheesecake/beefcake" art in the setting, played beautiful characters and enjoyed the "stupid" as part of the fantasy aspect of the game/setting. The worst reaction has been ignoring it and picking something else as inspiration. But I haven't had a woman offended or refuse to play game because of it. I didn't know it was even an issue until I saw it come up online.
Sometimes they want to play more down to earth characters, just like anyone but usually, IME, they like to be sexy, powerful badasses that don't take shit from anyone (again, like the guys) as Escapism. And if presented with two images of equal equality :One of comic book Red Sonja and one Brienne from Game of Thrones as woman warriors in a setting they'd probably go more for Sonja as a basis, all things being equal though Brienne is more realistic.
Could be I've met allot of outliers but that is what informs my opinion ont he matter aside from my own tastes.
To be fair the ones in my group that do complain about women in chain mail are men. So go figure. I personally really don't care for cheesecake and beefcake. It just depends on the setting and much like you I never thought it was a problem before I got online.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;747067Word. There are a few other games that are similar to ubiquity. I used to hate all dice pools. Then I figured out that it's all the gimmicks some game designers add that make many of the earlier dice pool games execrable.
NWoD actually went to using a more straightforward dice pool system like ubiquity. Too bad it sucks in other ways.
To be honest, I still to this day genuinely fail to understand the rage over dice pools.
It genuinely baffles me.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;747059Even that would have been a better system than what we got...
On a sidenote, have you ever thought of a fitting alternative? I still think there's potential for a fun game in the Mouse Guard setting. Perhaps BRP or Fudge would do the trick?
Dunno the Mouse Guard source material very well, but Woodland Warriors (http://beyondbeliefgames.webs.com/woodlandwarriors.htm) might be a fit.
There's also the Castles & Crusades-powered Harvesters (http://www.trolllord.com/siege/8901.html).
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;747021Mouseguard RPG
I really want to like it... I love the setting, the book is just gorgeous... But holy shit Burning Wheel (even the simplified version for Mouseguard) is utter shit... Not only that, but Luke Cranes writing makes me want to punch him... I cant explain why... IT just does...
Other than having no wish to like the game, I agree with this post. Especially the punching.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;747021Mouseguard RPG
I really want to like it... I love the setting, the book is just gorgeous... But holy shit Burning Wheel (even the simplified version for Mouseguard) is utter shit... Not only that, but Luke Cranes writing makes me want to punch him... I cant explain why... IT just does...
I've only read parts of Burning Wheel at my FLGS, and the tone is very much:
Look at these clever mechanics. Impressive, eh? But wait, there's more. This sub-system is sublime, don't you think? But hey, the guy knows his audience.
Quote from: Nexus;747114Sometimes they want to play more down to earth characters, just like anyone but usually, IME, they like to be sexy, powerful badasses that don't take shit from anyone (again, like the guys) as Escapism. And if presented with two images of equal equality :One of comic book Red Sonja and one Brienne from Game of Thrones as woman warriors in a setting they'd probably go more for Sonja as a basis, all things being equal though Brienne is more realistic.
When adorable girlfriend MUD'd, she played a chainmail bikini barbarian, somewhat more heavily muscled and less intelligent than Red Sonja (I played a raver Witch, who stabbed people in the face with glowsticks; Granny Weatherwax probably wouldn't approve); but over all of the games I've played, I've not really noticed female players being that different from male players in the types of character they play. Maybe it's just the people I play with. But now we're close to veering into a different subject!
Quote from: Snowman0147;747103Though yeah Ladybird I can clearly see your point and what you are coming from. Different tastes and all.
Well, yeah. That's what this thread is about ;)
I'm perfectly willing to tell people that I think their stuff is stupid, and why, and I'm happy to discuss it with them (Maybe I've misjudged something!); but I'm not going to go on a crusade about this, I'm content to just not buy their books, and they're presumably content to not have an unhappy customer.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;747042I have a strange affection for the d12
The nice thing about the lowly 2d6, is that the d6 is easy to come by, and that the probabilities are reasonably well known. My first d12, had a terrible casting flaw, so we could never use it, go figure.
Quote from: Silverlion;747079No energy weapons in a Sci Fi game that has other "advanced tech" which is less likely than energy weapons. Lasers, particle beams, something. The science IS possible, the biggest hurdle is energy supply, and if you have non-natural wormhole FTL, or the equivalent, energy weapons of some form should be a given./
Your argument hits a Holtzman shield, creating a nuclear explosion. It makes sense to have few if any energy weapons in a setting that has something else to render them useless.
Quote from: Snowman0147;747135To be fair the ones in my group that do complain about women in chain mail are men. So go figure. I personally really don't care for cheesecake and beefcake. It just depends on the setting and much like you I never thought it was a problem before I got online.
It generally only bugs me if it's either just blatant cheesecake (the *only* point of the image is to be sexy), or if the women are treated very differently than the men (men are shown very realistic, women are shown as eye candy).
If the armor for both sexes is unrealistic and stylized, then I can pretty well gloss over it.
Quote from: J Arcane;747140To be honest, I still to this day genuinely fail to understand the rage over dice pools.
It genuinely baffles me.
IT'S DIFFERENT AND THEREFORE BAD.
Quote from: Haffrung;747213I've only read parts of Burning Wheel at my FLGS, and the tone is very much: Look at these clever mechanics. Impressive, eh? But wait, there's more. This sub-system is sublime, don't you think?
But hey, the guy knows his audience.
Self-congratulatory info-mercial? Wow, that is pretty insufferable. Pompous salesman is a really hard look to pull off.
I thought Burning Wheel was that committee-designed 3e campaign world over at enworld.
Quote from: Ladybird;747214When adorable girlfriend MUD'd, she played a chainmail bikini barbarian, somewhat more heavily muscled and less intelligent than Red Sonja (I played a raver Witch, who stabbed people in the face with glowsticks; Granny Weatherwax probably wouldn't approve); but over all of the games I've played, I've not really noticed female players being that different from male players in the types of character they play. Maybe it's just the people I play with. But now we're close to veering into a different subject!
Well, the guys tended to play handsome, sexy characters too so there really wasn't much difference in the regard. Allot of Bishounen types if they could get away with it. Probably more escapism but most characters are in one way or another.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;747278I thought Burning Wheel was that committee-designed 3e campaign world over at enworld.
No, that was Burning Loins...
err... wait...
Burning Skies
Yeah that's it, Burning Skies
or something...
I know burning was involved... Whether or not it was the kind that needed antibiotics is up for debate...
If I was going to play a chainmail bikini type warrior, it would be an homage to Wendy O'Williams: a fierce rip your junk off type woman.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;747308No, that was Burning Loins...
err... wait...
Burning Skies
Yeah that's it, Burning Skies
or something...
I know burning was involved... Whether or not it was the kind that needed antibiotics is up for debate...
Burning Sky, that was it.
Quote from: dragoner;747310If I was going to play a chainmail bikini type warrior, it would be an homage to Wendy O'Williams: a fierce rip your junk off type woman.
This man knows his punk rock chicks. :hatsoff::worship:
That excuse of a game where men rode side-saddle for some bullshit fertility taboo.
No. Millennia of recorded history says it's bullshit, so NOPE; that's the sort of retarded idea that comes form people who don't get how this sort of thing actually works. That degree of stupidity shit-canned all hope of me (and my people) ever taking that game seriously.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;747367That excuse of a game where men rode side-saddle for some bullshit fertility taboo.
No. Millennia of recorded history says it's bullshit, so NOPE; that's the sort of retarded idea that comes form people who don't get how this sort of thing actually works. That degree of stupidity shit-canned all hope of me (and my people) ever taking that game seriously.
That was the game where the worlds continents looked like giant people including body contours so gravity was really wonky, right? I thought the fertility issue was just how it actually worked in that setting?
Quote from: Nexus;747368That was the game where the worlds continents looked like giant people including body contours so gravity was really wonky, right? I thought the fertility issue was just how it actually worked in that setting?
Ah, now I remember:
REIGN, and the physics (aside from magic being a thing) are as the real world despite weirdo lands to play on (and, quite frankly, that's some seriously useless shit in terms of world design; it has no impact on play at all, so it's fucking pointless), so no.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;747369Ah, now I remember: REIGN, and the physics (aside from magic being a thing) are as the real world despite weirdo lands to play on (and, quite frankly, that's some seriously useless shit in terms of world design; it has no impact on play at all, so it's fucking pointless), so no.
I like REIGN mechanically but the default setting? No, just no, Greg Stolze has done many great things but that was just pointless weirdness for the sake of weirdness. I think he eventually realised that people straight-up thought the geography of that world was too Goof Troop to take seriously and he put out a supplement with a "proper" world map where the continents work like actual continents.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;747369Ah, now I remember: REIGN, and the physics (aside from magic being a thing) are as the real world despite weirdo lands to play on (and, quite frankly, that's some seriously useless shit in terms of world design; it has no impact on play at all, so it's fucking pointless), so no.
I recall there was a big shitstorm about it on TBP where if you didn't like the fertility issue you were a sexist asshole and how using it to justify not having male cavalry was TOTALLY DIFFERENT than 40K not having female Space Marines or any other gender based class restrictions. I kind of tuned it out as the setting didn't interest me. Thanks for the info.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;747369Ah, now I remember: REIGN, and the physics (aside from magic being a thing) are as the real world despite weirdo lands to play on (and, quite frankly, that's some seriously useless shit in terms of world design; it has no impact on play at all, so it's fucking pointless), so no.
The world had shores where the ocean rises straight up towards the sky, so I wouldn't call it real-worldish, even. And since the sun doesn't move there's places that are in perpetual darkness.
Reign's setting really is the poster child for Trying Too Hard.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;747367That excuse of a game where men rode side-saddle for some bullshit fertility taboo.
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/hobbitWTF.gif)
I kinda liked REIGN, and found the cultures really interesting to look into; it's not Earth, they developed differently to us. When we played it though, we used a "flat planet" version.
My character got turned into a bear werehuman; but it was his own fault for picking the wrong fight and not conceding when he was given the opportunity.
Quote from: Ladybird;747410I kinda liked REIGN, and found the cultures really interesting to look into; it's not Earth, they developed differently to us. When we played it though, we used a "flat planet" version.
My character got turned into a bear werehuman; but it was his own fault for picking the wrong fight and not conceding when he was given the opportunity.
It did have some great bits; magic, in particular, recasting some monsters such as werewolves and centaurs into sorcerers who just went too far down the rabbit-hole was great. Also the jawless imperial guardsmen and eye-eating diviner-kings from the supplements. The cultures in general were really cool.
But the weird physics, far more so than the weird geography, was a major turn-off for me. And the whole sidesaddle-riding thing was a poorly thought-out, contrived justification for something that didn't need justification in the first place (gender-equal fantasy), but easy to ignore.
I don't think it's a bad game – great system, good setting with bits I don't like very easily changed or ignored – but I ended up never playing this one.
With all my current prostate problems, riding side-saddle sounds much more attractive...
Riding side saddle is a ridiculous cultural practice. I haven't read or played Reign, but I assumed that this was the point: not all customs make sense. I mean, in our world that custom (applied to women) makes even LESS sense, but we accept it as benignly old fashioned. Again, haven't read the game, but I thought that this one detail was sort of clever. Meh.
Quote from: Necrozius;747450Riding side saddle is a ridiculous cultural practice. I haven't read or played Reign, but I assumed that this was the point: not all customs make sense. I mean, in our world that custom (applied to women) makes even LESS sense, but we accept it as benignly old fashioned. Again, haven't read the game, but I thought that this one detail was sort of clever. Meh.
Quote from: Greg StolzeHorseback Riding
It is an article of absolute faith, everywhere in the world, that riding astride makes men impotent. Horses were first tamed on the plains of what would become the Heluso Confederacy, and the belief about damage to virility started there. As the use of the animals spread, so did the belief. Unless a man is castrated, he doesn't ride astride. Not horses, not other animals, not anything. It's completely beyond the pale, socially – about as bad as a man wearing lipstick and a bra and nothing else running down the street in our modern world. Furthermore, that business about impotence is true. From our superior 21st century vantage point we may dismiss it as psychology making a prophecy fulfill itself, but to the people of Heluso and Milonda this is as iron a fact as the immobility of the sky.
With the advent of the stirrup making mounted combat far more dangerous, the gender politics of horseback riding and military might have done much to make sexism on Heluso and Milonda a different matter than the gender biases of our own cultures. Well, that and politics and magic.
...so yeah, it's a bit vague as to whether it's an absolute fact or voodoo-esque self-fulfilling prophecy, but neither really matters because the characters in the setting believe that's how it works.
In any case, there's about as much
actually stopping you as there is stopping you playing a female knight in, say, Pendragon. If you want to play with the social consequences, do it!
Quote from: 3rik;747409(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/hobbitWTF.gif)
Frodo, quit gargling Sam's fertility and just swallow already.
It wasn't really the side saddle issue that bugged me about the setting. The weird physics threw me more (I couldn't visualize what shore lines must have looked like for one thing). It was a weird custom but there are allot of customs, superstitions and beliefs that don't make sense or have much basis in reality that have and are strongly believed. The oddest thing about it was that it was so uniformly believed across the entire setting (unless it is a fact of life in that world which I assumed it was).
Yeah the sidesaddle thing was weird, I mean it supposedly causes infertility, but not impotence. 100% foolproof birth control and guys aren't using it?
The continental people idea seemed to be weird but pointless, most everything was underwater. What's the point of living on a titanic chick if I can't go live on a clit the size of Mount Everest.
I went and looked it up in the Reign book and it's impotence, not infertility per se.
Quote from: Necrozius;747450Riding side saddle is a ridiculous cultural practice. I haven't read or played Reign, but I assumed that this was the point: not all customs make sense. I mean, in our world that custom (applied to women) makes even LESS sense, but we accept it as benignly old fashioned. Again, haven't read the game, but I thought that this one detail was sort of clever. Meh.
Men fuck. Men who win in fighting fuck more. Men who fight on horseback win more than those that don't. Men who fight on horseback and win are not men who ride sidesaddle. Men who who fight on horseback and win fuck more, and that means
they figure out the taboo is bullshit because they breed the women that they fuck. Taboos exposed as bullshit don't stay taboo for long, which is why it's bullshit.
That's what the folks who dogpiled me about my objection never figured out: it's a bullshit taboo because effective ones don't break when you look at them like that. You want an effective taboo? How about "Women don't go into combat because it means the death of the tribe." Effective taboos work because they
reinforce repeatable observations of reality as it is, not as some try-too-hard wanna wants it to be; send your breeding age women into combat, and you risk the survival of the tribe if your losses hit a critical mass threshold of deaths and cripplings (unlike if a shit-ton of men die in combat).
Sure, matter-of-fact reality ain't so cut-and-dried, but when dealing in taboo formation and propagation you're not looking at cultures with the Scientific Method- at best, you're looking at strong (but not scientific) cultures of logic and reason, and most often you're looking at a handful of influencers (who do have such things) using religion as the means to push out the knowledge into a people who are too busy Not Dying to bother with figuring out anything that is not immediately concerned with Not Dying.
Fucking
morons. This is one of the many reasons I say that Reality Trumps Fantasy.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;747656You want an effective taboo? How about "Women don't go into combat because it means the death of the tribe." Effective taboos work because they reinforce repeatable observations of reality as it is, not as some try-too-hard wanna wants it to be; send your breeding age women into combat, and you risk the survival of the tribe if your losses hit a critical mass threshold of deaths and cripplings (unlike if a shit-ton of men die in combat)..
You'd be pretty hard pressed for finding evidence for this, especially the whole birth rate issue.
Quote from: Kemper Boyd;747662You'd be pretty hard pressed for finding evidence for this, especially the whole birth rate issue.
Yeah, cos women fight so badly they don't even get killed. :p
What about if you send your men to fight, and we send our men and women to fight and we win because we outnumber you two to one and then we go over to your place and kill all your women whom you have foolishly not taught how to fight back?
Quote from: Axiomatic;747669What about if you send your men to fight, and we send our men and women to fight and we win because we outnumber you two to one and then we go over to your place and kill all your women whom you have foolishly not taught how to fight back?
Depending on how you use your women, you might actually be at a disadvantage!
Quote from: Axiomatic;747669What about if you send your men to fight, and we send our men and women to fight and we win because we outnumber you two to one and then we go over to your place and kill all your women whom you have foolishly not taught how to fight back?
Well, men in Reign's setting can and do fight. They just make rubbish cavalry, because they ride sidesaddle.
To create a Men's Riding Army, you'd need to convince enough men to ignore the social stigma and lifetime of conditioning not to ride astride (When they could just be infantry instead, which is a fine career), and convince enough women to be willing to train them. But of course... your character has been raised in this culture as well. Maybe it won't occur to them that they could do so.
(I never understood the fascination with wanting female Space Marines, anyway. Take a boy child and a girl child, give 'em a few decades of psychotherapy, growth hormones, implants and combat training, and by the end of it they're both going to be pretty similar, regardless of their genitals.)
I can buy a gameworld where women cavalry are a thing. I can even buy a world where in some cultures the cavalry are exclusively women. This doesn't even have to result from a "warrior woman" culture or a matriarchal culture per se. Perhaps early on in a culture's development they came to the conclusion that handling domesticated animals is women's work, and then the women realised they could make important contributions in battle by lending their horseriding skills to the men. Perhaps the macho thing to do is to be a charioteer - after all, then you're handling multiple horses - whereas riding horseback is seen as second best. I can buy women cavalry being a thing in all sorts of different cultures, male-led, female-led, whatever.
Yes, in some respects the taboo is impractical when you view it from a coldly utilitarian perspective. But all sorts of cultural practices become impractical once the original impetus for them fades away but they are still retained anyway. (For instance, keeping kosher is inconvenient and, depending where you live in the world, can be downright expensive and difficult, but people still do it anyway.)
What I can't buy is the same cultural taboo being shared by every single culture on the planet. There are precious few cultural mores which are common to all human societies in our own world, and "only women can ride cavalry" is the sort of taboo which is so niche and specific that you'd really expect there to be a lot of variation.
I have no problem with Stolze positing a world where the prevailing cultural assumptions about gender roles differ from our own - this is fantasy, right, we're allowed to use our imaginations - but the horse taboo is a completely goofy and heavy-handed way to go about it and has the side effect of making his imagined world seem less real because its societies don't vary on this point to the extent you'd expect them to.
I agree with Warthur - in principle "horse riding is a female role" seems like a workable trope, tropes don't have to be optimised for utility; but making it universal makes the culture seem less real.
Quote from: S'mon;747715I agree with Warthur - in principle "horse riding is a female role" seems like a workable trope, tropes don't have to be optimised for utility; but making it universal makes the culture seem less real.
EDIT: I'll take my opinions on culture elsewhere: I'm here to talk about gaming!
I agree to the extent that mono-cultures as they tend to be represented in RPGs and fiction tend to be kind of "off" to me.
Is the culture in question a ruthless matriarchy? Are these bronze-age cultures?
Quote from: Necrozius;747724EDIT: I'll take my opinions on culture elsewhere: I'm here to talk about gaming!
I agree to the extent that mono-cultures as they tend to be represented in RPGs and fiction tend to be kind of "off" to me.
Is the culture in question a ruthless matriarchy? Are these bronze-age cultures?
I forget the fine details but I vaguely remember the assumed tech level as being bronze age-ish.
I don't get why not just make the side saddle issue an in setting fact. It does causer impotence. Then such a wide spread taboo makes more sense as a observable verifiable fact.
Quote from: Necrozius;747724EDIT: I'll take my opinions on culture elsewhere: I'm here to talk about gaming!
I agree to the extent that mono-cultures as they tend to be represented in RPGs and fiction tend to be kind of "off" to me.
Is the culture in question a ruthless matriarchy? Are these bronze-age cultures?
The land masses are apparently about the size of one or two Africa's in total (The internet is vague in terms of whether that's an Africa per body or in total). I think all of the modern cultures share a common ancestor though, with the empire's first monarch having been female and that having lasted since; not really ruthless, just that's the way it was.