TheRPGSite

I'm currently running a LotFP campaign (https://talestoastound.wordpress.com) -- which is going great.

I'm looking for some advice on a simple matter of hex crawls.

I have a campaign map. It has hexes. I'll be rolling for encounters each time the PCs enter a hex. The PCs are looking for a specific item in a 16x24 hex grid map. They don't know where it is. They will probably have a prop-map showing a rough sketch of the valley and major points of interest from before an ongoing war ruined the valley.

Question: When running a hex crawl like this, do those of you who have done something like this:
a. Provide the Players with a blank hex map for them to make their own map?
b. Not provide the hex paper at all, keeping it all in their heads and checking the map based on their decisions. ("We'll keep heading north.")?
c. Provide them with paper (no hexes) for them to sketch out their travels as they go?

What are the plusses and minuses for the methods you use?

Thanks!

***

If you want more information or have more questions about the set up, here you go:

The Player Characters are traveling from 17th Century Europe to an alternate, fantasy earth, to explore the Qelong Valley and find a powerful source of magic to prevent the gods of Carcosa from invading their version of earth.

Qelong  (http://www.lotfp.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=169)is a terrific sandbox module from Ken Hite. It's only fifty pages, but it really is a miniature campaign all on its own. (It's dense. If there's a downside to the product, it is that it is really dense. I'm spending some time unfolding some of the information right now.)

Qelong is a fantasy-horror Cambodia, where the warring magic between two arch-mages on the other side of the mountains has spilled into the water and has poisoned the land.

The Player Characters are on a quest to find one of the magical weapons that has fallen into the valley. The weapon is packed with a terribly powerful, magical substance called Aakom. This is what the player characters are seeking. It is also the source of the poison in the valley.

The map of the Qelong Valley included in the module is scaled 6 miles to a hex. Every time you enter a hex you roll for an encounter.

The players have no idea at first where the weapon is, though over time they can find clues. There are also several factions at war in the valley, as well as tons of strange encounters. They will be arriving in a port town. The item is up river, near the edge of the valley by the mountains.

The players will most likely end up with a rough prop-map while searching for rumors when they first arrive in the port town. (They are clever, and will think of having someone sketch the valley for them.) The prop-map shows the valley from before the war, so it a) is a little out of date; b) doesn't show where the magical weapon is.

Really depends on what presentation you want. Players with (more or less) accurate hex maps? Or players with guesswork?

Since they have to search hex by hex Id strongly suggest giving them a blank map and let them fill it out as they go. That way they know where theyve been and where they may need to be.

Quote from: Omega;934755Since they have to search hex by hex I'd strongly suggest giving them a blank map and let them fill it out as they go. That way they know where theyve been and where they may need to be.

That's my thought as well. As you state, having hex map that they fill in offers them the chance to track where they've been.

I do want to avoid the sessions feeling like looking down at a board game map, however. I try to put the players "in the scene" as much as possible. I'd rather not have them focusing on everything at the "hex level" of the game.

I usually give the players a map of the area they are exploring.  Having the players map as they go does not provide enough bang-for-the-buck in my experience.

Quote from: Old One Eye;934765Having the players map as they go does not provide enough bang-for-the-buck in my experience.

Could you talk more about this, please?
Thanks!

One thing I'm thinking of doing is building a hex-map for the Players based off the prop-map they'll be getting. I'll highlight certain geographical points that they have on the prop-map (which in this case is based off the map from before the war). Then lots and lots of blank spots for them to explore and discover.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;934768Could you talk more about this, please?
Thanks!

One thing I'm thinking of doing is building a hex-map for the Players based off the prop-map they'll be getting. I'll highlight certain geographical points that they have on the prop-map (which in this case is based off the map from before the war). Then lots and lots of blank spots for them to explore and discover.

It takes time at the table for players to fill in their own map which has an impact on pacing.  While I like the fog of war aspect, I don't think it is worth slowing the game over.  

I also have more luck getting the players into a pretty map I prepared beforehand than a whatever handscrawled thing is produced in play.

Even the last dungeon I ran, the PCs had reason to know the layout, so I gave them the dungeon map.  

Having the map simply does not harm gameplay much if any, in my experience.  They do not know the map key or secret places omitted from the map.

Quote from: Old One Eye;934775It takes time at the table for players to fill in their own map which has an impact on pacing.  While I like the fog of war aspect, I don't think it is worth slowing the game over.  

I also have more luck getting the players into a pretty map I prepared beforehand than a whatever handscrawled thing is produced in play.

Even the last dungeon I ran, the PCs had reason to know the layout, so I gave them the dungeon map.  

Having the map simply does not harm gameplay much if any, in my experience.  They do not know the map key or secret places omitted from the map.

This is my general feeling. A map with details omitted is an invitation to explore.

Filling in a blank map can work, but you should never make the whole map blank. Look back to X1, the Isle of Dread. Players start with a map of the coast and can move inwards to explore.

Along the same line, you could give the players a loose but attractive map of the setting, then sometimes have them fill in hex maps detailing smaller areas with that setting, maybe with some well-known landmarks already filled in.

Quote from: Baulderstone;934777This is my general feeling. A map with details omitted is an invitation to explore.

Along the same line, you could give the players a loose but attractive map of the setting, then sometimes have them fill in hex maps detailing smaller areas with that setting, maybe with some well-known landmarks already filled in.

Guys, thanks so much. This was the kind of point of view and thinking I was hoping to find.

Here's what I'm going to do.

This is the prop-map that comes with Qelong:
(https://talestoastound.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/screen-shot-2016-12-12-at-5-22-52-pm.png)

I'm sure that by the time the PCs have spent time scrounging for information, they'll have come across the map.

I'll create a hex map at 1" per hex for the Players. I'll mark the landmarks noted on the prop-map above the Players' map. They'll have reference points, and be able to see landmarks, but they'll also see lots of area to explore.

Moreover, since the war has ruined the valley, as the move through the hex-map, they'll mark corrections -- canals that have been shattered, bridges that no longer exist, cities that are gone. The theme of the valley being ruined by decades of war is a major part of the setting, and I think it will come through really wonderfully if they expect things to be one way, and come across the ruins.

I had already planned on placing the coastline, but now I really love marking up the mountains, the the rivers, the canals, and so on. Anything that is on the Referee's map (which is gorgeous, by the way) except for secret stuff, ends up on the larger, Player-owned hex map, giving them context and a starting place for exploration. Here's a sample of the Referee's map:
(https://talestoastound.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/screen-shot-2016-12-12-at-5-34-58-pm.png)

It'll take some work, but I've paused the campaign so I can a) hit a heavy deadline on a lot of work; and b) prep the game. I think it'l be well worth it. Get some colored Sharpies, do up the map nice.

Again, thanks!

The fog of war is in the details not the map. For example you can see a mountain range several miles away but you don't know who lives there or what is there. I would just present a map without any point location and start with that.

If you feel that too generous then you can do this like I did with my Points of Light map.

The referee map
[ATTACH=CONFIG]603[/ATTACH]

The player map.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]604[/ATTACH]

I found that exploration of hexes for the terrain itself is pretty boring for players. However exploring through unknown territory is interesting.  You have them starting in the port town and so they can, among other things, start asking about what where. If this was really happening then the locals would soon draw a mental picture of where the major stuff is. Basically the map without point locations. The local in the port town wouldn't know to tell the players where all the lairs, villages, and ruins are. For that they will have to explore.

I hired an artist to make custom hex tiles for me game, so I can quickly create the map as I go. My game has some weird terrain types - crystal forest, mechanical island, etc. I figured if a spell changes a terrain type it's as easy as changing the tile.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]605[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Ashakyre;934822I hired an artist to make custom hex tiles for me game, so I can quickly create the map as I go. My game has some weird terrain types - crystal forest, mechanical island, etc. I figured if a spell changes a terrain type it's as easy as changing the tile.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]605[/ATTACH]

Dude, that's awesome and amazing. And kind of overwhelming!

Quote from: estar;934780The fog of war is in the details not the map. For example you can see a mountain range several miles away but you don't know who lives there or what is there. I would just present a map without any point location and start with that.

If you feel that too generous then you can do this like I did with my Points of Light map.

The referee map
[ATTACH=CONFIG]603[/ATTACH]

The player map.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]604[/ATTACH]

I found that exploration of hexes for the terrain itself is pretty boring for players. However exploring through unknown territory is interesting.  You have them starting in the port town and so they can, among other things, start asking about what where. If this was really happening then the locals would soon draw a mental picture of where the major stuff is. Basically the map without point locations. The local in the port town wouldn't know to tell the players where all the lairs, villages, and ruins are. For that they will have to explore.

Estar, thanks so much of this. What you've illustrated is, I think, how I'll be approaching this. Again, I'll take the Player Character "prop-map" (shown in my post above), and lay out the marked details from that map: Town, mountains, rivers, canals, the royal road, and other significant landmarks.

As with the Player Character's map you provided, there is a lovely sense of unexplored spaces revealed between the marked areas. Without any context, it is just white. But when this whiteness is revealed between marked areas, it becomes the promise of adventure.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;934828Estar, thanks so much of this.

Glad to help. One thing I forgot to mention is that the reason players find exploring terrain for the sake of terrain boring because it feel like a random crapshot. So what you can pick one of several empty hexes, they are just meaningless white blobs. Using a partial map, or a map without any point location details in my experience eliminates this issue for most players. Because the shape of the terrain combined whatever rumors they learned is enough to make the players feel they are making a legit choice.

So the key thing is to make sure that the players feel like a legit choice. My suggestion is only ONE of many ways to make that happen. So whatever you come up with makes sure that what it result in.

One of the things I like to do is prep for the players a regional map of what is know. Especially if the area is settled or near settled lands.

So theyd get a map with all the surrounding adjacent hexes noted and any roads, those roads leading to known towns, ruins or other features. General knowledge points. EG: Theres hills right north of Wereskalot. "About a days travel north is part of the long mountain range that stretches far to the east and west. and a swamp to the southeast about a days travel. Past the swamp about 3 days travel more to the southeast is Lulin." And so on. With known parts allready noted on the players map.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;934779(https://talestoastound.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/screen-shot-2016-12-12-at-5-34-58-pm.png)

It'll take some work, but I've paused the campaign so I can a) hit a heavy deadline on a lot of work; and b) prep the game. I think it'l be well worth it. Get some colored Sharpies, do up the map nice.

Again, thanks!

What did you make that tile map with? I want to make something similar.

As for giving the players a hex map, what happens if they get lost? Then they think they are going to hex X, but really, they are in hex Y. Now suppose they travel a few hexes, not realizing they are lost. They just filled up the map with misinformation.

What happens when they find out they're lost? It seems like it would be very confusing and kill pacing to try and figure out how to fix the map.

Quote from: Ashakyre;934822I hired an artist to make custom hex tiles for me game, so I can quickly create the map as I go. My game has some weird terrain types - crystal forest, mechanical island, etc. I figured if a spell changes a terrain type it's as easy as changing the tile.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]605[/ATTACH]

How much did that cost?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;934838What did you make that tile map with? I want to make something similar.

I'm sorry if the posts above were not clear enough: The full color image I linked to is a portion of the fold-out map from the Qelong book.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;934838As for giving the players a hex map, what happens if they get lost? Then they think they are going to hex X, but really, they are in hex Y. Now suppose they travel a few hexes, not realizing they are lost. They just filled up the map with misinformation.

I hadn't thought of this, but now I'm curious. For those of you with hex-crawling experience, how did you handle this?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;934839How much did that cost?

The tiles were produced from thegamecrafters.com - $13+  (with shipping) for 32 tiles. I'll produce maybe 8 sets.

The artist's fees were affordable but I don't consider it proper to say. DM me and Ill give you his contact info.

I should also make the tiles available on thegamecrafters if folks want to buy them. I'll sell two versions. One with 32 tiles, all terrains in equal proportions, and anither with 256 tiles, with the more common types in higher proportions. All the tiles flip over and have water on the back.

The tiles are for my game but maybe an OSR supplement free PDF would be helpful... something to do with exploration - so if folks bought tiles they wouldn't have to okay my game.... it would compatible in some way with their game.

Quote from: Ashakyre;934843The tiles were produced from thegamecrafters.com - $13+  (with shipping) for 32 tiles. I'll produce maybe 8 sets.

The artist's fees were affordable but I don't consider it proper to say. DM me and Ill give you his contact info.

I should also make the tiles available on thegamecrafters if folks want to buy them. I'll sell two versions. One with 32 tiles, all terrains in equal proportions, and anither with 256 tiles, with the more common types in higher proportions. All the tiles flip over and have water on the back.

The tiles are for my game but maybe an OSR supplement free PDF would be helpful... something to do with exploration - so if folks bought tiles they wouldn't have to okay my game.... it would compatible in some way with their game.

What do you mean you'll produce sets? You mean you're offering to make more for people?

Hmm, that sounds interesting. Actually, that entire site looks pretty cool.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;934840I hadn't thought of this, but now I'm curious. For those of you with hex-crawling experience, how did you handle this?

Yeah I thought this was the entire point of the players mapping out where they go -- so they know when they get lost. But then they have a messed up map.

The sample map you showed is done... there's nothing more to explore.

I'm afraid I can't help you much; in the original Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaign, the players' desire to explore came first, THEN came the creation of the worlds outside "the dungeon and the town." We all wanted to explore and find new shit; I don't know what to tell you about players who don't.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;934879The sample map you showed is done... there's nothing more to explore.

I'm afraid I can't help you much; in the original Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaign, the players' desire to explore came first, THEN came the creation of the worlds outside "the dungeon and the town." We all wanted to explore and find new shit; I don't know what to tell you about players who don't.

I believe, though I might be wrong, that you have managed to misread everything I posted in posts #1 and #8.
But I understand if you can't help. It's all good.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;934877What do you mean you'll produce sets? You mean you're offering to make more for people?

Hmm, that sounds interesting. Actually, that entire site looks pretty cool.

It's a print on demand site. If I hit "publish" - people can buy copies of my design. I might as well. It would be fun.

Quote from: Ashakyre;934934It's a print on demand site. If I hit "publish" - people can buy copies of my design. I might as well. It would be fun.

Right. TheGameCrafter is a board game POD shop that makes the games for you. Its a bit different from other PODs. You provide all the files and then they make and sell it for you on their site as long as you can fit your components into their formats. Their hex tiles have improved as the photo showed. Its where the reprint of the classic Star Explorer is sold for example.

Back on topic. Dragon Storm uses terrain cards which are laid out as the group moves into them. So you know where youve been and where you are. Getting lost meant you couldnt get out of the area that day.

re: getting lost, hex crawls traditionally let you leave the hex, but not to the hex you thought you wanted.

So you might THINK you are going north, but in reality you are going south.

Eventually you might realize you got lost if you run into a landmark that you know shouldn't be there.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;934955re: getting lost, hex crawls traditionally let you leave the hex, but not to the hex you thought you wanted.

So you might THINK you are going north, but in reality you are going south.

Eventually you might realize you got lost if you run into a landmark that you know shouldn't be there.

Yes. I was asking about the element of drawing and re-drawing maps.

Keep in mind, the reason I started this thread is ideas and methods people running hex crawls have found useful and helpful for the players. There's obviously no "right" way to do this. And as noted in the OP, there are specific, unique conditions for this particular hex crawl and setting book.

Clearly there are different ideas as to how to best do this. And I'm happy to weigh them and make my own decisions.

Yeah.

The way I would handle it is, have the players just draw their own map. They can make it from node to node, labeling each location and the direction they think they're going. Then if they get lost they can look at that and try to figure out where it went wrong.

Having a blank hexmap that has the big terrain features already there is cool too though.

I've done various versions of hexcrawl.

* I would do encounter checks based on time, not based on entering hexes.

* The most basic system I would use for a detailed campaign is to have a GM hexmap that represents the world, and let the players try to map if they want, and/or have their PCs buy maps which get represented by "special effect" prop maps drawn either on hex paper or not, but not showing everything and not being entirely accurate in terms of the actual layout/shapes/distances/terrain. Play is always done in narration of what the players see and do, and while they may be really sure what town they are in, they never see the GM world map, and never get OOC information about what hex they are in on the actual map. When they are not following a terrain feature such as a road or river, they have to roll on appropriate ability scores (IQ, navigation, forest survival, etc, modified by terrain and visibility etc) to successfully move in the intended direction at full speed, etc. Sometimes being able to map requires certain skills on the PC and certain equipment (mainly literacy, paper and pen/ink, possibly cartography).

* More often nowadays my map may or may not have hexes, but I consider movement and terrain details at a finer level of detail when appropriate. The hex-based rules and maps can be rough useful guidelines, but play can take the detail level to mapping out more details of what's in each hex and that can override the hex-based movement system. Unlike the more simple hex-based system, having a hex map is not the most accurate and reliable type of map and may even be misleading, because the actual detail of how things are layed out may be more intricate and have nothing to do with hexes.

General comment here.... but when we're talking about combat we can be clear about the differences between simulation or genre emulation, but when we talk about hex crawling we default back to route simulationism. I hope folks don't get crossed up in the precise definitions of those words.

Personally, I couldn't care less about the exact mathamatical ramifications of moving from one vertex of a hex versus another. ("Is this 20 miles or 28 miles. Let's break out the protractor.") What I do care about is... do the players get a sense of exploration? A sense of the world opening up? Interesting choices to make? Variety in terrain?

Are hex systems a little undeveloped compared to combat?

The characters have to have some knowledge of what's in the world so they can make a choice, so the partially filled in map seems viable to me. I tell the players some basic geography (big city to the east, great mountain range here, desert to the south.....) but the characters still have to explore the terrain bit by bit. Even the choice "towards or away from the one thing you know about" is still a choice: known or unknown?

My game, so far, does something like this:

Players explore a terrain hex, random encounter (might not be a monster), roll for exploration, if successful, place surrounding hex tiles and location cards within the explored hex. For the rest of the world turn the characters can move between locations within the hex, and may end the turn at any of those locations or move to a neighboring hex.

Running from an encounter or avoiding it completely makes the exploration roll harder.

Successive turns exploring the same hex add cumulative bonuses until success is assured.

It's not purely literal, but placing all the neighboring hexes and locations at once gives the PC's interesting choices. A little board gamey, maybe, bit I've accepted that design risk. My 2c.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;934957Yes. I was asking about the element of drawing and re-drawing maps.

Keep in mind, the reason I started this thread is ideas and methods people running hex crawls have found useful and helpful for the players. There's obviously no "right" way to do this. And as noted in the OP, there are specific, unique conditions for this particular hex crawl and setting book.

Clearly there are different ideas as to how to best do this. And I'm happy to weigh them and make my own decisions.

If you have the players map and use getting lost rules, you will most likely have a game session that will consist of retracing steps for the purpose of figuring out where the map went wrong.  Whether you and your players think it is fun to retrace steps in order to get the basic geography correct is a matter for y'all to discuss.

Quote from: Old One Eye;935110If you have the players map and use getting lost rules, you will most likely have a game session that will consist of retracing steps for the purpose of figuring out where the map went wrong.  Whether you and your players think it is fun to retrace steps in order to get the basic geography correct is a matter for y'all to discuss.

Thanks. This is important, as the Qelong Valley is poisoned with horrible magic. Breathing the air of the valley, eating game and vegetables from the valley, taking wounds that are exposed to the air, all accumulate Aakom poisoning. There setup is a real challenge in terms of time, travel, exploration, strange monsters, horrible poison, and more. If they need to backtrack, that's part of the situation at hand.

My campaign tracks resource management and time severely -- we count torches and rations and more. As they strike out into the Qelong Valley, it will be even more severe. There are rules for monsoon rains ruining food supplies if they are not packed under shelter, and so on. The valley is poisoned, desperate, and war-torn. The Player Characters will, over time, be feeling the brunt of the magical corruption as much as the natives of the valley do. Getting lost is one more thing they can't afford to do.

As I type this out, it occurs to me I might let them reduce their odds of getting lost if they choose to move more slowly, taking hard routes to always stay focused on landmarks they have picked out, instead of moving around terrain and picking up their landmarks again.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;935115Thanks. This is important, as the Qelong Valley is poisoned with horrible magic. Breathing the air of the valley, eating game and vegetables from the valley, taking wounds that are exposed to the air, all accumulate Aakom poisoning. There setup is a real challenge in terms of time, travel, exploration, strange monsters, horrible poison, and more. If they need to backtrack, that's part of the situation at hand.

My campaign tracks resource management and time severely -- we count torches and rations and more. As they strike out into the Qelong Valley, it will be even more severe. There are rules for monsoon rains ruining food supplies if they are not packed under shelter, and so on. The valley is poisoned, desperate, and war-torn. The Player Characters will, over time, be feeling the brunt of the magical corruption as much as the natives of the valley do. Getting lost is one more thing they can't afford to do.

As I type this out, it occurs to me I might let them reduce their odds of getting lost if they choose to move more slowly, taking hard routes to always stay focused on landmarks they have picked out, instead of moving around terrain and picking up their landmarks again.

Ah.  PC vs environment is a huge part of the game I see.  Generally outside my forte, as I rarely have the environment be all that much of an obstacle.

Since that is a significant portion of your game, then I would highly recommend the thread' s general vibe of having the players do their own mapping (with major landmarks already on it since they can see the mountains on the horizon or whatnot).  Keeping the geography secret beyond what they PCs discover in-game for your situation would be similar to how I would never just give the players a monster list for Castle Badness except for what they recon in-game, since the exploration of what is there is a crucial part of game play.

Quote from: Old One Eye;935121Ah.  PC vs environment is a huge part of the game I see...

Well, it's a huge part of the upcoming sessions of play.

The campaign started over a year ago (https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/2015/11/08/fallen-world-campaign-lotfp-first-session-report-future-prep/). We've had lots of different kinds of environments, often with different kinds of challenges. The Qelong Valley is a new, specific setting, with its own specific challenges, tone, puzzles. This is one of the reasons I'm polling for thoughts on hex crawls here. Qelong (like most of the LotFP products) is its own, specific thing. When I start running it (near the beginning of next year), I want have thought out how I want to present and use all the pieces at hand.

My thinking is:

I'll have a large hex-sheet ready to go for the players. But I will not give it to them until they ask if there's some method they should be using to map or start mapping on their own. (They always map in the ruins they've explored, but they've never had to map outdoors, having travelled on roads in central Europe. They haven't needed to do much cross-country travel.)

The sheet will have the coastline, the city of Qompang where they'll dock, and a few details they would have seen from shore. (Forest covered mountains along the shoreline to either side of Qompang, for example.)

The setting is a fantasy southeast Asia, humid, during the monsoon season, so humidity will make other landmarks (even mountains) tough to see outside of sixty miles (ten hexes) or so... except on those days the weather suddenly clears and mountains at the edges of the valley will be revealed at, say hundred miles (so, 14 hexes). The valley is about 18 x 24 hexes, so when they get a clear day they'll be able to get a grasp of the valley very quickly -- only to lose it again as the rain falls.

So, if they begin mapping, I'll present them with the paper. They can begin filling in details as they go.

If, while in the city of Qompang, the inquire to the geography of the valley, they can get details about the valley and rough locations of important landmarks. I've decided I won't be giving the Players the prop-map that comes with the book, because I think it gives too much away. Instead, I'll take a blank sheet of 8.5x11 and roughly sketch out the information they acquire. If and when they get more info, roleplaying it out, we'll add the details, with rough approximation of distance and direction using Qompang as the reference point.

Again, everyone, thanks so much! The approach I'll be taking is taking shape.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;934779Guys, thanks so much. This was the kind of point of view and thinking I was hoping to find.

Here's what I'm going to do.

This is the prop-map that comes with Qelong:
(https://talestoastound.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/screen-shot-2016-12-12-at-5-22-52-pm.png)

I'm sure that by the time the PCs have spent time scrounging for information, they'll have come across the map.

I'll create a hex map at 1" per hex for the Players. I'll mark the landmarks noted on the prop-map above the Players' map. They'll have reference points, and be able to see landmarks, but they'll also see lots of area to explore.

Moreover, since the war has ruined the valley, as the move through the hex-map, they'll mark corrections -- canals that have been shattered, bridges that no longer exist, cities that are gone. The theme of the valley being ruined by decades of war is a major part of the setting, and I think it will come through really wonderfully if they expect things to be one way, and come across the ruins.

I had already planned on placing the coastline, but now I really love marking up the mountains, the the rivers, the canals, and so on. Anything that is on the Referee's map (which is gorgeous, by the way) except for secret stuff, ends up on the larger, Player-owned hex map, giving them context and a starting place for exploration. Here's a sample of the Referee's map:
(https://talestoastound.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/screen-shot-2016-12-12-at-5-34-58-pm.png)

It'll take some work, but I've paused the campaign so I can a) hit a heavy deadline on a lot of work; and b) prep the game. I think it'l be well worth it. Get some colored Sharpies, do up the map nice.

Again, thanks!

I would like to ask... do you need hexes at all?

Can't you just use a map with terrain shown, and then mark on the map itself where things are, once they are found?

Why do we need hexes?

Quote from: Ashakyre;935077Personally, I couldn't care less about the exact mathamatical ramifications of moving from one vertex of a hex versus another. ("Is this 20 miles or 28 miles. Let's break out the protractor.") What I do care about is... do the players get a sense of exploration? A sense of the world opening up? Interesting choices to make? Variety in terrain?

Agreed.

As I've told my players. The elves and dwarves don't have GPS and satellite images of the world. All mapping is done from the perspective of people on the group, often based on stories from travelers who may be embellishing the facts.

Quote from: Psikerlord;935140Why do we need hexes?

We don't.

They are a great tool for some players. It provides a methodical framework for exploration and makes distance measurement easy for everyone. AKA, the town is 5 hexes away.

Quote from: Spinachcat;935141We don't.

They are a great tool for some players. It provides a methodical framework for exploration and makes distance measurement easy for everyone. AKA, the town is 5 hexes away.

Cool, figured as much.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;934973Yeah.

The way I would handle it is, have the players just draw their own map. They can make it from node to node, labeling each location and the direction they think they're going. Then if they get lost they can look at that and try to figure out where it went wrong.

Having a blank hexmap that has the big terrain features already there is cool too though.

That was pretty much our first session of BX D&D. We got thoroughly lost on the way to the dungeon.

Quote from: Ashakyre;935077Personally, I couldn't care less about the exact mathamatical ramifications of moving from one vertex of a hex versus another. ("Is this 20 miles or 28 miles. Let's break out the protractor.") What I do care about is... do the players get a sense of exploration? A sense of the world opening up? Interesting choices to make? Variety in terrain?

While I agree with this, and with Spinachcat's points agreeing with it, keep in mind that in my campaign rules for encumbrance, travel times, food supplies, and other components of resource management all matter. So tracking how far the group has traveled in so much time matters.

I might be missing something, but the point of hexes is to make the tracking of distances easier so that one does not have to pull out the protractor, yes? It abstracts the movement into large chunks (in this case six miles) so that the Referee can quickly calculate how far the group has traveled depending on their movement rate.

In the LotFP rules, depending on encumbrance, cross-country trekking is, respectively, 24, 18, 12, 6 miles per day. The hexes are there as a convenience.

The key is, of course, to keep the focus of the description and imaginative play at the level of the Player Characters. Hex paper can be a trap in this regard... which is why I've started this thread. To poll people for their experiences and techniques.

Quote from: Omega;935179That was pretty much our first session of BX D&D. We got thoroughly lost on the way to the dungeon.

Hahaha awesome. Hope there was a friendly hermit with a mountain lion who set you on the right path.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;935181While I agree with this, and with Spinachcat's points agreeing with it, keep in mind that in my campaign rules for encumbrance, travel times, food supplies, and other components of resource management all matter. So tracking how far the group has traveled in so much time matters.

I might be missing something, but the point of hexes is to make the tracking of distances easier so that one does not have to pull out the protractor, yes? It abstracts the movement into large chunks (in this case six miles) so that the Referee can quickly calculate how far the group has traveled depending on their movement rate.

In the LotFP rules, depending on encumbrance, cross-country trekking is, respectively, 24, 18, 12, 6 miles per day. The hexes are there as a convenience.

The key is, of course, to keep the focus of the description and imaginative play at the level of the Player Characters. Hex paper can be a trap in this regard... which is why I've started this thread. To poll people for their experiences and techniques.

I've seen blogs where the party is not assumed to be in the center of the hex, but closer to the edges or vertexes, and then math is required to calculate exact distances. And yes, it completely defeats the purpose of using hexes.

I am certainly locked into certain ways of doing things but printed my hexes because they help make an abstract thing tangible. When I'm done designing the first draft of my game I'll have to see what changes I can make sinthe game doesn't depend on props.

At the end of the day, the mechanics have a lot to do with what you focus on and what you gloss over, and how much mental drag the game has. I personally think that encumberance rules are pretty nifty - but I want to put complexity in other areas of the game.

I just use the hexes as ways to break up scenes.

I don't care where they are in the hex, I just say they travel until they run into the next encounter, which is in the new hex they're in, and then that's it.

Quote from: Psikerlord;935140I would like to ask... do you need hexes at all?

Can't you just use a map with terrain shown, and then mark on the map itself where things are, once they are found?

Why do we need hexes?

The benefits I receive from using hexes are:

Makes it easy to calculate distances.

Gives an organization methodology to make a key when the hexes are numbered.

When I am making a key, makes it easier to notice when I leave large blank areas on the map without anything on my key.

Quote from: Old One Eye;935297The benefits I receive from using hexes are:

Makes it easy to calculate distances.

Gives an organization methodology to make a key when the hexes are numbered.

When I am making a key, makes it easier to notice when I leave large blank areas on the map without anything on my key.

Rightio yeah they help with organising a map, and as an earlier poster suggested, you can simply roll an encounter when crossing each hex, so that makes things easier too.

I started with 2e and never really saw any hex games, well I dont recall any. I am in the middle of writing what I consider a "sandbox" setting, but I'm not planning a hex map. Instead I figure folks will just estimate distances, based on the legend/key (plus misc factors based on system used). Then the players can just say the direction of travel and off they go. I dont usually worry about things such as getting lost, however. Perhaps hexes help with that too.

Quote from: Spinachcat;935141

Quote from: Psikerlord;935140Why do we need hexes?

We don't.

They are a great tool for some players.

I found that hexes are a better tool for the GM.
They make eyeballing travel times easier.

Regardless of players succeeding in their mapping.

I find that showing players the maps, including the GM's hex map, generally works best for me. In my Wilderlands game the maps are 15 miles/hex and the players started with a map of the core campaign area, with more added later. I found when they were adventuring through an area where they didn't have a map it did not work so well, they did not have enough info to make meaningful choices despite my best efforts at description. A player told me he keeps the core campaign map as his phone screensaver! :)

I will point out that hexes became nearly universal for map-based wargames because they were so useful.  They WORK.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;935504I will point out that hexes became nearly universal for map-based wargames because they were so useful.  They WORK.

They work better for terrain, but not as well for buildings constructed with right angles. An approximation of 1.5 squares for diagonals is less bad than the approximation of 2 for moving two hexes on a path with a 120 degree turn, and not very hard to manage. TFT maps forcing rectangular rooms onto hexes just felt wrong to me. (The very first dungeon, or maybe the second, my character explored when I started playing D&D was graphed on polar coordinate graph paper. That mostly did not work.)

Quote from: rawma;937020They work better for terrain, but not as well for buildings constructed with right angles. An approximation of 1.5 squares for diagonals is less bad than the approximation of 2 for moving two hexes on a path with a 120 degree turn, and not very hard to manage. TFT maps forcing rectangular rooms onto hexes just felt wrong to me. (The very first dungeon, or maybe the second, my character explored when I started playing D&D was graphed on polar coordinate graph paper. That mostly did not work.)

SJ Games used quashed hexes in their dungeon tile product so that the hex grid and the square grid aligned over the same area. It was nifty and it worked well.

Quote from: estar;937023SJ Games used quashed hexes in their dungeon tile product so that the hex grid and the square grid aligned over the same area. It was nifty and it worked well.

I remember partial hexes in TFT; one could offset every other row of a square grid (to get a brick wall pattern) but there would still be half squares at the end of each row in a square room. Do you have a picture of or link to the quashed hexes so I can see what you mean?

Quote from: rawma;937026I remember partial hexes in TFT; one could offset every other row of a square grid (to get a brick wall pattern) but there would still be half squares at the end of each row in a square room. Do you have a picture of or link to the quashed hexes so I can see what you mean?

http://www.sjgames.com/heroes/art-df.html

(http://www.sjgames.com/heroes/img/3x3room.jpg)

Quote from: estar;937041http://www.sjgames.com/heroes/art-df.html

Thanks. (I still prefer the 3x3 square grid to the 8 hexes plus two half hexes, though.)

Good thread! I'm exploring some rules for Campaign-scale play with Earthdawn and this has been very helpful.

(Also, Christopher was one of the authors for the 1st edition material for Earthdawn. Great to see you around the rpg forums, man!)

Quote from: rawma;937047Thanks. (I still prefer the 3x3 square grid to the 8 hexes plus two half hexes, though.)

Which is why you dont map towns and buildings in hexes unless you are ok with half spaces. Just switch to squares for dungeons and towns and hexes for wilderness and caves for example.

And actually if you dont mind a little weirdness to the map. You can slant a square map to fit a hex pattern.

Not the best of examples. But should get the idea across.

(http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/HeroQuest_Board~0.JPG)

Quote from: Omega;937366Which is why you dont map towns and buildings in hexes unless you are ok with half spaces. Just switch to squares for dungeons and towns and hexes for wilderness and caves for example.

I usually map buildings in squares and do natural terrain freeform (combat on a grid and just live with the granularity in caves).

QuoteAnd actually if you dont mind a little weirdness to the map. You can slant a square map to fit a hex pattern.

Non-orthogonal spanning set; but distances are not equivalent.

Nothing wrong with hexes; I liked TFT, but not the maps of buildings.

Quote from: rawma;937384
Non-orthogonal spanning set; but distances are not equivalent.

Nothing wrong with hexes; I liked TFT, but not the maps of buildings.[/QUOTE1: The distances should still match. Its just skewed at a slant.

2: The accordion walls? Was never overly fond of those. But they work.

Using square grids for buildings can often lead to them being too aligned to the square grid, unless it's a modern location with no terrain features to bend around that happens to all be aligned on the same grid. Most pre-modern towns were not grids with rectangular buildings, and even modern towns built where there are hills or streams (and sometimes even without them) often don't just align everything to a grid. Too much grid alignment tends to lead to not so great design & aesthetics.

Quote from: Skarg;937516Using square grids for buildings can often lead to them being too aligned to the square grid, unless it's a modern location with no terrain features to bend around that happens to all be aligned on the same grid. Most pre-modern towns were not grids with rectangular buildings, and even modern towns built where there are hills or streams (and sometimes even without them) often don't just align everything to a grid. Too much grid alignment tends to lead to not so great design & aesthetics.

Nowadays the grids I use are almost entirely for combats between small forces and therefore very local; my house has only three very short walls that do not run parallel or perpendicular to the other walls (and they run at a 45 degree angle). Small round towers would probably be the most awkward common structure for the square grid (the granularity of a larger curved wall is not so bad). But it is also the case that the main walls of my house are not parallel to my neighbors' walls (because the street curves). A fight in narrow irregular alleys of a haphazardly arranged town would also be awkward, though. Introspection leads me to wonder why I am less bothered by these issues than forcing a rectangular room onto a hex map even though they present the same kinds of mismatches and partial squares; a combination of how commonly the issue arises and my arbitrary preferences, I think.

Back when I didn't draw anything for the players, aligning to the grid was a desirable feature because it was too hard to describe the dungeon if it followed a more natural or aesthetically pleasing design - everything was like "30 foot by 80 foot room; the door you entered is in the 3rd square from the east of the longer wall" or "you can see 60 feet of corridor to the north, with doors east at 20 and 50 feet and a door west at 60 feet", accurate distance estimation apparently being an automatic proficiency for adventurers.

I use hexes when I bother with grids. For small-scale stuff that incorporates architecture that doesn't line up with the 2-yard hex-grid, I just count partial hexes as "difficult terrain" (in Earthdawn that means costing additional movement points to enter, or reducing total movement rate for area effects, mud, etc).

Quote from: rawma;937558Nowadays the grids I use are almost entirely for combats between small forces and therefore very local; my house has only three very short walls that do not run parallel or perpendicular to the other walls (and they run at a 45 degree angle). Small round towers would probably be the most awkward common structure for the square grid (the granularity of a larger curved wall is not so bad). But it is also the case that the main walls of my house are not parallel to my neighbors' walls (because the street curves). A fight in narrow irregular alleys of a haphazardly arranged town would also be awkward, though. Introspection leads me to wonder why I am less bothered by these issues than forcing a rectangular room onto a hex map even though they present the same kinds of mismatches and partial squares; a combination of how commonly the issue arises and my arbitrary preferences, I think.

Yep. Somewhat similarly, hexes for buildings started to bother me after a  while, but when I switched from TFT (whole hexes of all-one-terrain, line-of-sight/fire traced from center hex dot to center hex dot) to GURPS (draw the actual shape and treat partially open hexes as full hexes, line-of-fire traced from any part of a hex to any part of a hex), I would mainly free-hand things and just use the grid to track locations and distances and such, then it wasn't much of an issue because the hex grid wasn't making buildings be weird shapes.

Using no grid at all for combat can work, but can also be more tricky because there is no longer a really precise definition for rulings of who can reach whom and what the facing is, etc.

QuoteBack when I didn't draw anything for the players, aligning to the grid was a desirable feature because it was too hard to describe the dungeon if it followed a more natural or aesthetically pleasing design - everything was like "30 foot by 80 foot room; the door you entered is in the 3rd square from the east of the longer wall" or "you can see 60 feet of corridor to the north, with doors east at 20 and 50 feet and a door west at 60 feet", accurate distance estimation apparently being an automatic proficiency for adventurers.

Yep. There are trade-offs. I think it's funny when the players start to want the world to conform to an artificial grid organization so they can map accurately, but of course if/when everyone can agree on what way to handle maps, that's nice.

Look at downtown St. Paul, MN or NYC south of 14th street for modern cities that don't have rectangular grids.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937982Look at downtown St. Paul, MN or NYC south of 14th street for modern cities that don't have rectangular grids.

Damn drunken Irishmen...

Quote from: rawma;937020They work better for terrain, but not as well for buildings constructed with right angles. An approximation of 1.5 squares for diagonals is less bad than the approximation of 2 for moving two hexes on a path with a 120 degree turn, and not very hard to manage. TFT maps forcing rectangular rooms onto hexes just felt wrong to me. (The very first dungeon, or maybe the second, my character explored when I started playing D&D was graphed on polar coordinate graph paper. That mostly did not work.)

You can use off-set squares instead of hexes.  They provide the same benefit as hexes, same distance no matter which way you go, and work great with square rooms.  For dungeons and such this is only important (IMHO) if there is a big tactical miniature/counter aspect to the game where details of facing etc. are handled through maneuver, such as TFT or D&D 3.x.   I prefer it to a regular grid and counting diagonal movement as 1.5 times regular movement.  Well really I gave up on detailed tactical miniature/counter, now it's a bit more abstracted with rolls used to determine if you can get into some contested but advantageous position.

Quote from: Old One Eye;934775It takes time at the table for players to fill in their own map which has an impact on pacing.  While I like the fog of war aspect, I don't think it is worth slowing the game over.  

I also have more luck getting the players into a pretty map I prepared beforehand than a whatever handscrawled thing is produced in play.

Even the last dungeon I ran, the PCs had reason to know the layout, so I gave them the dungeon map.  

Having the map simply does not harm gameplay much if any, in my experience.  They do not know the map key or secret places omitted from the map.

I'm with you on this, I try to find good in-game reasons to provide a map, not that it happens to much, for reasons of pacing.  A lot of players just don't map very fast.  I love mapping as a player.  TO balance it out, it I draw the map for them one of the characters must have quill and paper (and clip board ;) ) and this slows down there progress.  Unless the character has some skill/background or tool that would allow for accurate distance measurement, I freehand it on regular unlined paper to reflect imprecision in distances.  If a player ever had a character with more accuracy (or uses the Map spell) I'd use graph paper.