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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: RPGPundit on July 12, 2013, 04:04:50 AM

Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: RPGPundit on July 12, 2013, 04:04:50 AM
So I'm not the biggest fan of the WH40K universe as it stands, but really, isn't the notion recently presented by certain people on certain other rpg forums about trying to make an "inclusive" (of gender, and apparently species) 40K universe really just a catastrophically stupid case of missing the point??
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: dbm on July 12, 2013, 04:29:46 AM
Yes. The 40k premiss is a fascist regime says 'we are your only defence in a deadly universe' - and they're right.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Warthur on July 12, 2013, 05:48:53 AM
More inclusive of gender you could do without breaking the game, or really deviating that much from published canon. You can emphasise the Sisters of Battle's aspect as terrifying enforcers for the Ecclesiarchy, you can have plenty of women as Inquisitors or Imperial Guard commanders or Navy admirals and so on and so forth.

In fact, the only part of the setting I can think of where you couldn't have women showing up is in the ranks of the Space Marines, and it's worth remembering that the Space Marines are the horrifying result of a disturbing cloning project and one of the more blatant signs of just how sick the Imperium is deep down. It's arguably IC sexist, but it isn't OOC sexist to depict an IC sexist society which you don't actually condone or support, and the Imperium is specifically a bad thing in a galaxy stuffed with bad things. Granted, it keeps humanity alive, but arguably the humanity of the far future doesn't even deserve to be saved considering the depths it lowers itself to for the sake of keeping the species going.

More species-inclusive really doesn't make sense though and completely misses the point of the setting. Again, the fact that the Imperium is hyper-xenophobic is specifically not a good thing - for one thing, it's strongly implied that the Chaos Gods are sustained and nourished by the constant psychic turmoil unleashed by the various warp-sensitive races of the galaxy hating and warring on each other.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: TristramEvans on July 12, 2013, 06:06:34 AM
40 millenia in the future mankind is ruled by the wise and culturally-diverce heritaged Divine Matriarch. The DM and her attendants, The Unisex Astra Order allow ftl travel by coonstantly maintaining The Song, a perpetual tune that generates the magic rainbow bridge allowing starwhale and space-dragon vessels to navigate the alternate dimension of The Warp, a strange realm of stars and clouds, home to the Astral Unicorns and the three-moon-wolves. The Divine Matriarch maintains peace throughout the Imperium with her Friendship -Wow! Sparklemotion Sailors, who ride their Star Pegasi through the Warp to seek out those suffering from low self-esteem. The Tech-Wiccans create marvelous toys for all the children in the Universe. And the Inquisition seeks out any signs of The Patriarchy, ever vigilant to threats to the Divine Matriarch's "Emotional Safe Space", especially those that show up in obscure hobby groups.
All was wonderfull throughout the Imperium, with every little girl given her own pony and every little boy castrated after making their first ejaculate donation to the Great Imperial Sperm-Clone Bank. All were content knowing that each planet of The Imperium is populated by an exact ratio of all genetic ancestries, just as all business practices are overseen by the Board of Correct Interpersonal Relations.

Love, Friendship, and Happy-Correct thoughts ruled throughout space.









ANDTHENOMGEVERYONEEISKILLEDBYTHEGOD-DAMNMOTHERFRELLINGTYRANIDS!!!!!!!!
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: JeremyR on July 12, 2013, 06:30:47 AM
I can see a female Space Marine, what with genetic engineering and PEDs and such.

But they would be almost indistinguishable from a male Space Marine.

I also have to think it's a miracle that Star Wars has been given such a pass from such types.

You have slavery, women running around in skimpy outfits, everyone carries a gun, some people can do things that others can't (use the force), not to mention the same deal - there aren't any female stormtroopers. Heck, I can't even think of a woman Jedi from the movies. Or starfighter pilots.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Kanye Westeros on July 12, 2013, 06:40:18 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;67023040 millenia in the future mankind is ruled by the wise and culturally-diverce heritaged Divine Matriarch. The DM and her attendants, The Unisex Astra Order allow ftl travel by coonstantly maintaining The Song, a perpetual tune that generates the magic rainbow bridge allowing starwhale and space-dragon vessels to navigate the alternate dimension of The Warp, a strange realm of stars and clouds, home to the Astral Unicorns and the three-moon-wolves. The Divine Matriarch maintains peace throughout the Imperium with her Friendship -Wow! Sparklemotion Sailors, who ride their Star Pegasi through the Warp to seek out those suffering from low self-esteem. The Tech-Wiccans create marvelous toys for all the children in the Universe. And the Inquisition seeks out any signs of The Patriarchy, ever vigilant to threats to the Divine Matriarch's "Emotional Safe Space", especially those that show up in obscure hobby groups.
All was wonderfull throughout the Imperium, with every little girl given her own pony and every little boy castrated after making their first ejaculate donation to the Great Imperial Sperm-Clone Bank. All were content knowing that each planet of The Imperium is populated by an exact ratio of all genetic ancestries, just as all business practices are overseen by the Board of Correct Interpersonal Relations.

Love, Friendship, and Happy-Correct thoughts ruled throughout space.

Not gonna lie, I would drop some MDMA and play the shit out of this.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: dsivis on July 12, 2013, 07:26:35 AM
TristramEvans - Your post is like 80s girls' cartoons meets SciFi Blue Rose.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Gruntfuttock on July 12, 2013, 07:32:24 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;67023040 millenia in the future mankind is ruled by the wise and culturally-diverce heritaged Divine Matriarch. The DM and her attendants, The Unisex Astra Order allow ftl travel by coonstantly maintaining The Song, a perpetual tune that generates the magic rainbow bridge allowing starwhale and space-dragon vessels to navigate the alternate dimension of The Warp, a strange realm of stars and clouds, home to the Astral Unicorns and the three-moon-wolves. The Divine Matriarch maintains peace throughout the Imperium with her Friendship -Wow! Sparklemotion Sailors, who ride their Star Pegasi through the Warp to seek out those suffering from low self-esteem. The Tech-Wiccans create marvelous toys for all the children in the Universe. And the Inquisition seeks out any signs of The Patriarchy, ever vigilant to threats to the Divine Matriarch's "Emotional Safe Space", especially those that show up in obscure hobby groups.
All was wonderfull throughout the Imperium, with every little girl given her own pony and every little boy castrated after making their first ejaculate donation to the Great Imperial Sperm-Clone Bank. All were content knowing that each planet of The Imperium is populated by an exact ratio of all genetic ancestries, just as all business practices are overseen by the Board of Correct Interpersonal Relations.

Love, Friendship, and Happy-Correct thoughts ruled throughout space.









ANDTHENOMGEVERYONEEISKILLEDBYTHEGOD-DAMNMOTHERFRELLINGTYRANIDS!!!!!!!!

You win! :)
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: J Arcane on July 12, 2013, 07:34:39 AM
Quote from: JeremyR;670234I can see a female Space Marine, what with genetic engineering and PEDs and such.

But they would be almost indistinguishable from a male Space Marine.

I also have to think it's a miracle that Star Wars has been given such a pass from such types.

You have slavery, women running around in skimpy outfits, everyone carries a gun, some people can do things that others can't (use the force), not to mention the same deal - there aren't any female stormtroopers. Heck, I can't even think of a woman Jedi from the movies. Or starfighter pilots.
There are female Jedi depicted in the prequels and throughout the Expanded Universe canon.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: TristramEvans on July 12, 2013, 07:42:09 AM
Quote from: dsivis;670242TristramEvans - Your post is like 80s girls' cartoons meets SciFi Blue Rose.

Heh, pretty much what I was going for. New wave internet feminism meets Rainbow  Brite inn spaaaace!
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Koltar on July 12, 2013, 07:56:23 AM
BOTH of those universes are fucked up.

- Ed C.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Bill on July 12, 2013, 09:35:12 AM
I am a fan of the Warhammer settings.

I prefer them to not cater to plitical correctness.

It's not "Happy Utopia Land" like Star Trek. (I like star trek; its just different)




This is what I identify with when I think Warhammer 40k:

Slaanesh was given life by the immorality and hubris of the ancient Eldar empire. As their empire reached its zenith, the Eldar became lost in their own decadence, for they experience sensation and emotion to a far greater degree than any other intelligent species of the galaxy. The capabilities of their highly advanced technology meant that the Eldar did not need to labour or wage war. Instead, they were able to dedicate their lives to whatever idle pursuits took their fancy. Over several generations, this indolence came to rule and pervert their spirits. In the Immaterium, the collective psychic reflections of their indolence and hedonism caused a new Chaos Power to stir, beginning in the 25th Millennium of the Terran calendar. Created by one species' pure dedication to indulgence, the first motes of what would become Slaanesh began to coalesce.

The dormant Slaanesh fed upon the unchecked collective psyche of the Eldar, drawing on their lusts and ambitions, their artistry and pursuit of excellence in all things. In turn, as Slaanesh grew, its nascent dreams trickled into the minds of the Eldar and fuelled their desires, pushing them ever onwards towards their eventual doom. Eventually, the Eldar civilisation devolved into little more than pleasure cults dedicated to every act of physical, mental and spiritual fulfillment. Blood stained the statuary of their plazas as crowds of drug-addled maniacs sated their violent desires in the streets of the Eldar homeworlds. On one particularly depraved night, the debauchery reached a terrible crescendo that tore out the heart of the Eldar empire and left it ravaged beyond recovery. The Fall of the Eldar in the early 30th Millennium was signalled by the birth-scream of Slaanesh, a tsunami of emotion that heralded the Prince of Pleasure arrival in the Realm of Chaos. The psychic implosion caised by Slaanesh's birth swallowed hundreds of worlds at the heart of the Eldar empire in what is now the Imperium of Man's Segmentum Obscurus, killing billions of Eldar in a single instant and devouring a great section of the galaxy in the process. Such was its ferocity that it overwhelmed the barrier between the material and the immaterial, forming the massive, permanent Warp rift later named by men as the Eye of Terror.

Rampant and hungry, Slaanesh devoured the minds and souls of the Eldar, and across the galaxy, that ancient race was almost wiped out. Slaanesh slew most of the Eldar and their Gods in the Immaterium, except for the Eldar God of War Kaela Mensha Khaine, whose energy was dispersed into many separate pieces scattered across the various Infinity Circuits of the Eldar Craftworlds, and the Laughing God Cegorach. Only a relative few Eldar survived Slaanesh's birth-feast. Other Eldar survivors included the Harlequin, and those Craftworld Eldar who were very far away from the Eldar homeworlds when the Warp rift formed. Most of the survivors that remain have become sworn enemies of the Dark Prince, and yet a few of them have formed isolated cabals that still behave as their ancestors did, perversely following the downward spiral of excess.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Rincewind1 on July 12, 2013, 11:57:47 AM
You can say RPG.net Pundit, it's not like they'd allow a quote from you to start a between - forums squabble anyway.

Wasn't there pretty much a cannonical thing from even GW that women turned into men when they joined Space Marines due to the whole genetic playing thing? Should sit well with all the genderfluid crowds.

That said, pretty sure the leaders of Adeptus probably care fuck and all about who's dying for the Imperium, as long as the machinery keeps on grinding and they can live cosy lives in bunkers of Terra.

The clue is in "Fascist", really.

Quote from: Bill;670275I am a fan of the Warhammer settings.

I prefer them to not cater to plitical correctness.

It's not "Happy Utopia Land" like Star Trek. (I like star trek; its just different)




This is what I identify with when I think Warhammer 40k:

Slaanesh was given life by the immorality and hubris of the ancient Eldar empire. As their empire reached its zenith, the Eldar became lost in their own decadence, for they experience sensation and emotion to a far greater degree than any other intelligent species of the galaxy. The capabilities of their highly advanced technology meant that the Eldar did not need to labour or wage war. Instead, they were able to dedicate their lives to whatever idle pursuits took their fancy. Over several generations, this indolence came to rule and pervert their spirits. In the Immaterium, the collective psychic reflections of their indolence and hedonism caused a new Chaos Power to stir, beginning in the 25th Millennium of the Terran calendar. Created by one species' pure dedication to indulgence, the first motes of what would become Slaanesh began to coalesce.

The dormant Slaanesh fed upon the unchecked collective psyche of the Eldar, drawing on their lusts and ambitions, their artistry and pursuit of excellence in all things. In turn, as Slaanesh grew, its nascent dreams trickled into the minds of the Eldar and fuelled their desires, pushing them ever onwards towards their eventual doom. Eventually, the Eldar civilisation devolved into little more than pleasure cults dedicated to every act of physical, mental and spiritual fulfillment. Blood stained the statuary of their plazas as crowds of drug-addled maniacs sated their violent desires in the streets of the Eldar homeworlds. On one particularly depraved night, the debauchery reached a terrible crescendo that tore out the heart of the Eldar empire and left it ravaged beyond recovery. The Fall of the Eldar in the early 30th Millennium was signalled by the birth-scream of Slaanesh, a tsunami of emotion that heralded the Prince of Pleasure arrival in the Realm of Chaos. The psychic implosion caised by Slaanesh's birth swallowed hundreds of worlds at the heart of the Eldar empire in what is now the Imperium of Man's Segmentum Obscurus, killing billions of Eldar in a single instant and devouring a great section of the galaxy in the process. Such was its ferocity that it overwhelmed the barrier between the material and the immaterial, forming the massive, permanent Warp rift later named by men as the Eye of Terror.

Rampant and hungry, Slaanesh devoured the minds and souls of the Eldar, and across the galaxy, that ancient race was almost wiped out. Slaanesh slew most of the Eldar and their Gods in the Immaterium, except for the Eldar God of War Kaela Mensha Khaine, whose energy was dispersed into many separate pieces scattered across the various Infinity Circuits of the Eldar Craftworlds, and the Laughing God Cegorach. Only a relative few Eldar survived Slaanesh's birth-feast. Other Eldar survivors included the Harlequin, and those Craftworld Eldar who were very far away from the Eldar homeworlds when the Warp rift formed. Most of the survivors that remain have become sworn enemies of the Dark Prince, and yet a few of them have formed isolated cabals that still behave as their ancestors did, perversely following the downward spiral of excess.

I think about Bolter penetration rules, how OP Black Templars will continue to be, why are Necrons so bland (though that changed slightly) and how they screwed up Running rules in last edition, but whatever floats your boat, mate.

;)
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: danbuter on July 12, 2013, 12:00:14 PM
EVERYTHING is related to gay sex, eventually (or any other fringe issue). I really don't understand why, but various "professional protestors" just feel that everything must be all about their pet issue. They always frame the argument that if you don't include their issue, then you must be some kind of homophobe/racist/etc. Even if their pet issue has absolutely nothing to do with the product.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Piestrio on July 12, 2013, 12:10:57 PM
The thing that bothers me the most about this is its a clear demonstration of the idea that if you create or enjoy media with a certain element you must then endorse that element.

Your novel has sexism? You must be a sexist.

Your movie depicts racism? You must be a racist.

Your comic plot relies on xenophobia? You must be a xenophobe.

Unless you bend over backwards to condem it (even if that changes your story, making it a morality tale about said element. And even then you're not totally safe because they might not get that it's satire i.e. 40k)

Add to that its the same impulse that "media is mind control" that makes people want to ban violent video games. If Call of Duty doesn't make people violent then 40k won't make people sexist. The same arguments apply to both. And it's hogwash.

"But if people are constantly exposed to ________, then it becomes the background cultural norm, meaning they're more likely to think _________ and do _________."

Madlib as desired.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Rincewind1 on July 12, 2013, 12:13:38 PM
You are not the media you consume nor create.

Also, if TBP had it's way, Luke Skywalker would stand trial for race crime of murdering of Jabba the Hutt based on an assumption that all Hutts are crime lords. That said, let's keep the tangent about TBP in one topic, aye? :D
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Erstwhile on July 12, 2013, 12:14:42 PM
Greater gender equality isn't going to break the underlying themes or point of 40K.  You can have a thoroughly awful and dystopian society with at least ostensible gender equality (q.v. Stalinist Soviet Union).  EDIT:  And really a lot of the Empire already seems pretty equal in this regard - Imperial Guard, the secret police, the Imperial bureaucracy, etc.

A "cold war" policy towards the xenos rather than outright extermination is a bit more of a stretch but really, play it like Rokugan in L5R - only certain individuals are authorized to deal with the xenos and we certainly don't want xenos wandering around the Empire freely (which in many ways reflects what is already the case in Rogue Trader) - and you still have a shitsack setting that's pretty much doomed to fall to Chaos anyway.  Especially when there'll be plenty of people - both those serving Chaos and those in various governments - eager to start up the next "hot war" at any given time.  Again, I don't see how this misses the point of 40K.

Caveat:  I'm an RPG guy, not a wargame guy, so I err on the side of "what will let me run a more interesting campaign" rather than "there must be ONLY WAR so that we can sell more minis".

QuoteWasn't there pretty much a cannonical thing from even GW that women turned into men when they joined Space Marines due to the whole genetic playing thing? Should sit well with all the genderfluid crowds.

I've never encountered that in canon (not that I've read every last GW book, o'course) and I suspect that if GW had stated that canonically, it would have shown up in at least one of the "female Space marines" threads - certainly some folks make that argument, but I've never seen a GW statement to that effect.

QuoteThat said, pretty sure the leaders of Adeptus probably care fuck and all about who's dying for the Imperium, as long as the machinery keeps on grinding and they can live cosy lives in bunkers of Terra.

The clue is in "Fascist", really.

And that, too.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Sergeant Brother on July 12, 2013, 12:33:52 PM
The very idea of a politically correct 40K misses the entire point of the setting. It always makes my stomach turn when people talk try to push political correctness into gaming, and even more so with a setting like 40K where the political incorrectness is a central part of the setting and the Imperium. It is particularly bad on rpg.net where they ban you for dissent against the PC brigade.

Now, I do have a few issues with the 40K setting and changes I make when running games, but they have nothing to do with increasingly tolerance, inclusiveness, or anything of the sort.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: J Arcane on July 12, 2013, 12:57:32 PM
This whole flamewar is so old and rehashed that there's even an entire wiki article about it. http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Female_Space_Marines
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 01:32:05 PM
What the hell?  That's what I've been saying for years...and it's on THIS forum that folks want a "more inclusive 40k universe".

Well at least you finally saw the light.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Rincewind1 on July 12, 2013, 01:36:17 PM
You should stick to DERP DERP DERP.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 01:41:51 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;670360You should stick to DERP DERP DERP.

I came by that particular phrase after giving up trying to convey the exact same point Pundit made in the OP.  Do a search for my username with the keywords Warhammer and have fun sorting through a metric fuckton of Warhammer arguments, many started by Pundit and the others by Ghost Whistler, wherein I state the exact same thing over and over.

You should stick it back in your ass.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Rincewind1 on July 12, 2013, 01:45:22 PM
Quote from: Blackhand;670365I came by that particular phrase after giving up trying to convey the exact same point Pundit made in the OP.  Do a search for my username with the keywords Warhammer and have fun sorting through a metric fuckton of Warhammer arguments, many started by Pundit and the others by Ghost Whistler, wherein I state the exact same thing over and over.

You should stick it back in your ass.

Eloquent as always. And sorry but I have better things to do with my times than sort through your drivel. Tell us how those who don't play the wargame don't understand the true spirit of Warhammer please, or how those who houserule play Mother May I and DMs should stick to the rules.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 01:46:48 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;670368Eloquent as always. And sorry but I have better things to do with my times than sort through your drivel. Tell us how those who don't play the wargame don't understand the true spirit of Warhammer please.

I'm not going to bother, since you already seem to know.

However, I will tell you when I imagine your voice in my head speaking your replies here, it sounds like tiny little high pitched farts.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Rincewind1 on July 12, 2013, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: Blackhand;670370I'm not going to bother, since you already seem to know.

However, I will tell you when I imagine your voice in my head speaking your replies here, it sounds like tiny little high pitched farts.

Seems like you need to get more meds. If the farts tell you to jump, remember to close the window behind you.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 01:49:54 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;670372Seems like you need to get more meds. If the farts tell you to jump, remember to close the window behind you.

Says the guy who started this little exchange.

You really don't like me do you?

I guess I win the internets.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Rincewind1 on July 12, 2013, 01:52:35 PM
Quote from: Blackhand;670373Says the guy who started this little exchange.

You really don't like me do you?

I guess I win the internets.

Frankly, before this 'little exchange' I did not remember who you were, but now I do. You forgot to say how the GMs who would change 40k universe are playing Mother May I gaming.

Feel free to hang the trophy on your wall.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: selfdeleteduser00001 on July 12, 2013, 01:59:34 PM
Quote from: Kanye Westeros;670235Not gonna lie, I would drop some MDMA and play the shit out of this.

With or without the drugs it'd be fucking awesome. Now that's satire.

As.. I think, is 40k.. and Judge Dredd.

It's meant to be a fascist-theocracy with serious unpleasantness issues so of course they should be sexist.

But it's like many satires, some people just don't get it, and actually sign up for the cause that's being satirised.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 02:00:16 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;670375Frankly, before this 'little exchange' I did not remember who you were, but now I do. You forgot to say how the GMs who would change 40k universe are playing Mother May I gaming.

Feel free to hang the trophy on your wall.

Don't misquote me.  That's a pretty lame tactic, and it goes to show you don't have a leg to stand on here.  And by the way, 'Mother May I" means you are playing without rules, not with a slightly different setting.

There are several threads where I encourage folks to create all kinds of interesting 40k games.  Here's just one. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=20755&highlight=Warhammer)

As to the actual subject matter of this thread, the distilled gist of my arguments is thus:

If you attempt to change the setting, you're missing the point.

Note that there's all kinds of leeway for minor "sector" changes to create a setting all your own, with it's own idiosyncracies divorced from what GW and FFG publish.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Rincewind1 on July 12, 2013, 02:04:50 PM
Quote from: Blackhand;670377Don't misquote me.  That's a pretty lame tactic, and it goes to show you don't have a leg to stand on here.  And by the way, 'Mother May I" means you are playing without rules, not with a slightly different setting.

There are several threads where I encourage folks to create all kinds of interesting 40k games.  Here's just one. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=20755&highlight=Warhammer)

As to the actual subject matter of this thread, the distilled gist of my arguments is thus:

If you attempt to change the setting, you're missing the point.

Note that there's all kinds of leeway for minor "sector" changes to create a setting all your own, with it's own idiosyncracies divorced from what GW and FFG publish.

Surely attempting to change the setting is a mark of a lesser GM?

Quote from: tzunder;670376With or without the drugs it'd be fucking awesome. Now that's satire.

As.. I think, is 40k.. and Judge Dredd.

It's meant to be a fascist-theocracy with serious unpleasantness issues so of course they should be sexist.

But it's like many satires, some people just don't get it, and actually sign up for the cause that's being satirised.

Well, it did start as "Let's have Warhammer....in Spaaaace" joke, with glorious spicing of AD2000 which was in it's golden years when 1e of RPG and WFB came out so...yeah.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: JonWake on July 12, 2013, 02:11:07 PM
Cleanse the mutants!
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 02:28:30 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;670379Surely attempting to change the setting is a mark of a lesser GM?



Well, it did start as "Let's have Warhammer....in Spaaaace" joke, with glorious spicing of AD2000 which was in it's golden years when 1e of RPG and WFB came out so...yeah.


Not sure what you're trying to say now.  I think you're trying to save face by conflating a bunch of stuff you half remember from your jerk off sessions while reading this site.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Sergeant Brother on July 12, 2013, 02:48:42 PM
Quote from: tzunder;670376With or without the drugs it'd be fucking awesome. Now that's satire.

As.. I think, is 40k.. and Judge Dredd.

It's meant to be a fascist-theocracy with serious unpleasantness issues so of course they should be sexist.

But it's like many satires, some people just don't get it, and actually sign up for the cause that's being satirised.

You almost always see it in some form of media where there is some right wing, politically incorrect, or overly harsh character or organization that could potentially be interpreted as protagonists. It may be satire, some sort of message to show that the protagonist is bad, or could be a deconstruction of sorts, but many people will lach onto the politically incorrect characters or groups and see them as the heroes.

I think that there is a good reason for that sort of misplaced fandom. It is because we live in such a politically correct world where all of our media and entertainment is filtered through this lens of political correctness, where we have to limit what we can say and think at work, at school, at college, and in large portions of our daily lives. There are people who feel the need for some relief from this omnipresent and oppressive PC and they can have that in their entertainment. Unfortunately, entertainment is overwhelminingly politically correct as well and does not adequately meet the people's need - so they adopt satire and twist it in such a way as to provide an outlet, albeit an over the top one, for their non-PC feelings.

That is why the 40K setting has changed, because people didn't want satire, they wanted the fascists to be the heroes because they're tired of the Marxist heroes they see everywhere else.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Novastar on July 12, 2013, 02:53:02 PM
Quote from: JeremyR;670234Heck, I can't even think of a woman Jedi from the movies. Or starfighter pilots.
Well, there were all of 4 women in the Original Trilogy (Aunt Beru, Princess Leia, female controller in ESB, and Mon Mothma).

There were also only 2 black men: Lando Calrissian, and black starfighter pilot who dies in RotJ. Not sure if there were any Asians (funny, since Lucas wanted Mifune for Obi-wan).

But the Prequel trilogy has a much more diverse cast. There are female pilots and Jedi in the prequels (Aayla Secura being a fan favorite).
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Rincewind1 on July 12, 2013, 02:53:27 PM
Quote from: Blackhand;670389Not sure what you're trying to say now.  I think you're trying to save face by conflating a bunch of stuff you half remember from your jerk off sessions while reading this site.

I jerk off to porn, but whatever floats your boat, mate. I needn't save my face considering the 'opposition' from you so far. Considering you started off with pomous claim of "you've finally seen the light", as if "we" ever took 40k like a setting that needed inclusiveness.

Quote from: Sergeant Brother;670398You almost always see it in some form of media where there is some right wing, politically incorrect, or overly harsh character or organization that could potentially be interpreted as protagonists. It may be satire, some sort of message to show that the protagonist is bad, or could be a deconstruction of sorts, but many people will lach onto the politically incorrect characters or groups and see them as the heroes.

I think that there is a good reason for that sort of misplaced fandom. It is because we live in such a politically correct world where all of our media and entertainment is filtered through this lens of political correctness, where we have to limit what we can say and think at work, at school, at college, and in large portions of our daily lives. There are people who feel the need for some relief from this omnipresent and oppressive PC and they can have that in their entertainment. Unfortunately, entertainment is overwhelminingly politically correct as well and does not adequately meet the people's need - so they adopt satire and twist it in such a way as to provide an outlet, albeit an over the top one, for their non-PC feelings.

That is why the 40K setting has changed, because people didn't want satire, they wanted the fascists to be the heroes because they're tired of the Marxist heroes they see everywhere else.

Well, for the note, it started with Rogue Trader, so a type of character  that was outside the society itself.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: jhkim on July 12, 2013, 02:54:47 PM
Quote from: tzunder;670376As.. I think, is 40k.. and Judge Dredd.

It's meant to be a fascist-theocracy with serious unpleasantness issues so of course they should be sexist.

But it's like many satires, some people just don't get it, and actually sign up for the cause that's being satirised.
I haven't played WH40K, but my impression is that the space marines are often played up as cool.  They certainly seem to be a popular subject and possibly a popular choice for characters.  Is that what you're talking about?  

For me the question would be whether the game is still fun for, say, women players who want to play female characters.  You can make the game fun to play even when the in-game setting is a horrible dystopia.  However, if - for example - space marines are the cool and popular character choice, and the Sisters of Battle are second-rate, then I can see it being annoying for some women players.  

I've seen this issue in a lot of historical or semi-historical games.  There were campaigns where the GM was dismissive to women players, amounting to "Yes, you can play this game, but all the cool characters are men".  On the other hand, there were campaigns where the GM took care to give players a range of options for cool women characters, sometimes by changing history and sometimes while staying within history.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: 1989 on July 12, 2013, 03:00:33 PM
Quote from: TristramEvans;67023040 millenia in the future mankind is ruled by the wise and culturally-diverce heritaged Divine Matriarch. The DM and her attendants, The Unisex Astra Order allow ftl travel by coonstantly maintaining The Song, a perpetual tune that generates the magic rainbow bridge allowing starwhale and space-dragon vessels to navigate the alternate dimension of The Warp, a strange realm of stars and clouds, home to the Astral Unicorns and the three-moon-wolves. The Divine Matriarch maintains peace throughout the Imperium with her Friendship -Wow! Sparklemotion Sailors, who ride their Star Pegasi through the Warp to seek out those suffering from low self-esteem. The Tech-Wiccans create marvelous toys for all the children in the Universe. And the Inquisition seeks out any signs of The Patriarchy, ever vigilant to threats to the Divine Matriarch's "Emotional Safe Space", especially those that show up in obscure hobby groups.
All was wonderfull throughout the Imperium, with every little girl given her own pony and every little boy castrated after making their first ejaculate donation to the Great Imperial Sperm-Clone Bank. All were content knowing that each planet of The Imperium is populated by an exact ratio of all genetic ancestries, just as all business practices are overseen by the Board of Correct Interpersonal Relations.

Love, Friendship, and Happy-Correct thoughts ruled throughout space.









ANDTHENOMGEVERYONEEISKILLEDBYTHEGOD-DAMNMOTHERFRELLINGTYRANIDS!!!!!!!!

That's a big +1, right there, buddy. A+
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Bill on July 12, 2013, 03:02:58 PM
I want to ride a Star Pegasi and seek out people with low self esteem!
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;670400Considering you started off with pomous claim of "you've finally seen the light", as if "we" ever took 40k like a setting that needed inclusiveness.

How soon they forget.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Brad on July 12, 2013, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: jhkim;670401For me the question would be whether the game is still fun for, say, women players who want to play female characters.  You can make the game fun to play even when the in-game setting is a horrible dystopia.  However, if - for example - space marines are the cool and popular character choice, and the Sisters of Battle are second-rate, then I can see it being annoying for some women players.

If I run a superhero campaign based on Paradise Island, how much fun would it be for men players who want to play male characters? Who gives a fuck.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: selfdeleteduser00001 on July 12, 2013, 03:13:05 PM
Quote from: jhkim;670401I've seen this issue in a lot of historical or semi-historical games.  There were campaigns where the GM was dismissive to women players, amounting to "Yes, you can play this game, but all the cool characters are men".  On the other hand, there were campaigns where the GM took care to give players a range of options for cool women characters, sometimes by changing history and sometimes while staying within history.

That's true, so that women can play bitches alongside the bastards, you mean?
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Jaeger on July 12, 2013, 03:14:16 PM
Not that anyone cares, but the owner/s of the big purple live in Berkely Californa.

It is understandable why the community cultivated and encouraged on RPG.net has become what it is.

Once I understood what planet the people who run the place come from, threads like the 'inclusive 40K' one are not suprising - in fact, they should be expected...

.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: selfdeleteduser00001 on July 12, 2013, 03:15:46 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Brother;670398That is why the 40K setting has changed, because people didn't want satire, they wanted the fascists to be the heroes because they're tired of the Marxist heroes they see everywhere else.

I agree with you except, of course, you have *no* idea what a Marxist hero is like. But I accept that you have a different upbringing from mine. [Which was hardcore Marxist, Communist with a swirling pool of feminism and anarchism at the edges. I turned out fine.]

But that's another thread..
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 03:22:32 PM
We're only talking about gender inclusiveness, yet that's only part of the OP and not really the issue if you stop and think about it.

When I first spoke, I was speaking to Pundit's point about "species" inclusiveness.  

This is because many players feel any 40k RPG is incomplete without huge writeups on Eldar, Orks and Tau as PC's and decry the systems because of this.  That is wholeheartedly missing the point that the setting itself is humano-centric to the point of extreme xenophobia.

Attempting to include these species (as the term "inclusiveness" suggests when paired with the word "species") is missing the point of the setting.  

I never really thought that 40k was gender biased.  I mean, most armies are only men in the real world.  Note I use the word "most" in the sense that more soldiers are men than women.  However, there are more factions in 40k that are female only.  Sisters of Battle are obvious, but what about House Escher or the Callidus Temple?

Both of those are entirely female mostly for the same reason the Adeptus Astartes are only men.

Astartes Gene-Therapy is only designed to work on adolescent males.

House Escher treats it's males like inferior slaves, and due to their genetic culling most of the males born to that house are mentally or physically disabled.

The Callidus Temple of the Officio Assassinorum uses females exclusively because polymorphine works on females without killing them.

All that is from 20+ years ago.  Not to mention many Imperial factions other than Space Marines include many "star" female characters, such as the Adeptus Arbites, the Inquisition and many Rogue Traders.  Not to mention the Adeptus Administratum and the Planetary Governors mentioned in books and other "canon".  I have several female Imperial Guard figures, from a "Vasquez" type grenade launcher mini and a female commissar.

So now the question of inclusiveness turns back to species.  You can't include them in a game because it will change the basic value of the setting - that it's all viewed from a human's eye.

And for those who say the setting changed from Rogue Trader...it only existed that way for 5 years between 87 and 92 when Second Edition came out, and I'll bet many of you never had much contact with it then.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Sergeant Brother on July 12, 2013, 03:24:16 PM
Quote from: tzunder;670410I agree with you except, of course, you have *no* idea what a Marxist hero is like. But I accept that you have a different upbringing from mine. [Which was hardcore Marxist, Communist with a swirling pool of feminism and anarchism at the edges. I turned out fine.]

But that's another thread..

I think that I do, I think it is hard to go through life without of heavy exposure of Marxism from various sources and to various degrees. What could constitute a Marxist hero in fiction can vary quite a bit, depending on how they approach the issue and how obvious they want to be.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Kaiu Keiichi on July 12, 2013, 03:43:24 PM
Hey, I'm going to have female space marines at my Deathwatch games. And that's it.

Let's get back to talking about gaming instead of how other people game.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Piestrio on July 12, 2013, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;670416Hey, I'm going to have female space marines at my Deathwatch games. And that's it.

Let's get back to talking about gaming instead of how other people game.

Rock.

I don't think anyone has a problem with someone altering something to fit their group (well, except Blackhand). What I have a problem with is someone saying, "We need Female Space Marines because Male only Space Marines is sexist and bad and GW is sexist and bad and YOU'RE sexist and bad and should feel bad"

It's rather akin to Tipper Gore saying, "We need non-violent music because violent music is bad and Twisted Sister is violent and bad and YOU'RE violent and bad and should feel bad"
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Sergeant Brother on July 12, 2013, 03:57:20 PM
Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;670416Hey, I'm going to have female space marines at my Deathwatch games. And that's it.

Let's get back to talking about gaming instead of how other people game.

Well, ultimately we game to have fun and if that is more fun for your group, then that is definitely what you should do. Of course, what would be fun for me and my group may be quite a bit different. I don't necessarily judge anybody for how they play any RPG, but it is more fun to discuss the merits and flaws of different takes on games than to just write it off as individual preference, even though it largely is.

Personally, I have less objection to allowing female Astartes in 40K than trying to make the Imperium more tolerant or accepting in general.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 03:58:14 PM
Quote from: Piestrio;670419I don't think anyone has a problem with someone altering something to fit their group (well, except Blackhand).

I love being misread.  If many posters responding to my posts actually took time to read my posts other than the first three words, they'd know that.

It's not that I have a problem with it.  If you want female Deathwatch, that's your own fanwank and I'm not a part of that.  It doesn't affect me.  I'm not sending out emails, posting on Facebook or blogging that it should all come to a stop.

I'm just saying you're missing the point of the setting with your cries of indignation and equality.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Bill on July 12, 2013, 04:08:42 PM
Quote from: Blackhand;670421I love being misread.  If many posters responding to my posts actually took time to read my posts other than the first three words, they'd know that.

It's not that I have a problem with it.  If you want female Deathwatch, that's your own fanwank and I'm not a part of that.  It doesn't affect me.  I'm not sending out emails, posting on Facebook or blogging that it should all come to a stop.

I'm just saying you're missing the point of the setting with your cries of indignation and equality.

"I love Being"

First three words :)
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 04:10:29 PM
Quote from: Bill;670423"I love Being"

First three words :)

I stand corrected.  I do love Being.  :cool:
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: TristramEvans on July 12, 2013, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: Bill;670404I want to ride a Star Pegasi and seek out people with low self esteem!

(http://ordivodesign.com/uploads/2/8/0/3/2803495/9990090.jpg?491)

Excelsior true believer!
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Warthur on July 12, 2013, 05:08:24 PM
Quote from: danbuter;670308EVERYTHING is related to gay sex, eventually (or any other fringe issue).
Have you read Ian Watson's Space Marine?
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 12, 2013, 05:17:02 PM
Quote from: Warthur;670443Have you read Ian Watson's Space Marine?

There are Zoats in that book.

'Nuff said.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Ronin on July 12, 2013, 10:11:30 PM
Quote from: tzunder;670410I agree with you except, of course, you have *no* idea what a Marxist hero is like. But I accept that you have a different upbringing from mine. [Which was hardcore Marxist, Communist with a swirling pool of feminism and anarchism at the edges. I turned out fine.]

But that's another thread..

Quote from: Sergeant Brother;670412I think that I do, I think it is hard to go through life without of heavy exposure of Marxism from various sources and to various degrees. What could constitute a Marxist hero in fiction can vary quite a bit, depending on how they approach the issue and how obvious they want to be.

I know this is really off topic. But, both of you really amuse me. People who live in a country with perhaps a socialist slant, talking about how you know all about Marxism, and Communism. Having an extensive understanding of it all. I wonder what people that post in this very forum, that grew up in soviet and soviet satellites think of your understanding of these concepts.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Kanye Westeros on July 12, 2013, 10:50:53 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Brother;670398You almost always see it in some form of media where there is some right wing, politically incorrect, or overly harsh character or organization that could potentially be interpreted as protagonists. It may be satire, some sort of message to show that the protagonist is bad, or could be a deconstruction of sorts, but many people will lach onto the politically incorrect characters or groups and see them as the heroes.

I think that there is a good reason for that sort of misplaced fandom. It is because we live in such a politically correct world where all of our media and entertainment is filtered through this lens of political correctness, where we have to limit what we can say and think at work, at school, at college, and in large portions of our daily lives. There are people who feel the need for some relief from this omnipresent and oppressive PC and they can have that in their entertainment. Unfortunately, entertainment is overwhelminingly politically correct as well and does not adequately meet the people's need - so they adopt satire and twist it in such a way as to provide an outlet, albeit an over the top one, for their non-PC feelings.

That is why the 40K setting has changed, because people didn't want satire, they wanted the fascists to be the heroes because they're tired of the Marxist heroes they see everywhere else.

Both sides are the same. People are rarely that different. Maybe some people who have to go through being marginalised, for whatever reason, don't want to play games where the have to face the same issues they face day in, day out. I mean, that seems just as soul-crushing as the right-wing dude who can't escape "Marxism".
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: JonWake on July 12, 2013, 10:51:46 PM
Quote from: Ronin;670517I know this is really off topic. But, both of you really amuse me. People who live in a country with perhaps a socialist slant, talking about how you know all about Marxism, and Communism. Having an extensive understanding of it all. I wonder what people that post in this very forum, that grew up in soviet and soviet satellites think of your understanding of these concepts.

Stalin didn't have much use for small-'c' communists. Look what he did to the anarcho-syndicalists in Catalonia.  Then again, Stalin didn't have much use for things the breathed.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: selfdeleteduser00001 on July 13, 2013, 02:23:10 AM
Quote from: Ronin;670517I know this is really off topic. But, both of you really amuse me. People who live in a country with perhaps a socialist slant, talking about how you know all about Marxism, and Communism. Having an extensive understanding of it all. I wonder what people that post in this very forum, that grew up in soviet and soviet satellites think of your understanding of these concepts.

I was heavily exposed to Soviet culture as a foreigner. I have worked extensively in Eastern Europe from the end of Communism to now and I have friends in their 50s and 40s who worked or grew up in the East. Several of my friends are experts on Russia pre and post Soviet. Actually *I* am, they're the über experts.

So I agree with you. The experience of soviet communism, euro communism, socialism and so on is very different, often with similar language and similar base concepts and texts, but with massively different actualities.

And that also goes the same between a Euro Communist family in Western Europe and a family in Warsaw Pact Poland in, say, 1979 as much as the USA right slinging about the tag "Marxist" now to describe centre left softies and old Skool prudes, all in the same pot.

The extent to which the Warsaw Pact was a mix of the older strands of Central and Eastern Europe, the Russian Imperial State, Austro Hungary, Hitler, etc means that come the mid 21st century it'll probably be the number one table top gaming genre!
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Warthur on July 13, 2013, 07:11:13 AM
Quote from: Blackhand;670444There are Zoats in that book.

'Nuff said.
More to the point, there's Imperial Fists ordering naked teenagers to don skintight bodysuits (the Pain Glove) for torture purposes, plus ritualistic ass-branding and all sorts of shenanigans - in other words, there's been stacks of S&M homoeroticism in 40K for ages, and some of it is still canon (there's a Pain Glove sequence in Sons of Dorn, a recent Imperial Fists novel, which reads like a very mild rewrite of the one in Space Marine).
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on July 13, 2013, 08:04:07 AM
The conversation is veering far from RPGs. This forum is for discussions about roleplaying games, not politics.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: RPGPundit on July 14, 2013, 02:40:32 PM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;670589The conversation is veering far from RPGs. This forum is for discussions about roleplaying games, not politics.

Agreed.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Nexus on July 14, 2013, 02:49:17 PM
I'm not very informed about the Warhammer 40K universe but I was under the impression that it was pretty egalitarian as far as humans went. Pretty much everyone was miserable. Men, women, different ethnicities (such as they'd exist 40,000 years in the future?) weren't persecuted and great discriminated against as a matter of imperial policy (different worlds might have different problems as might be expected) except for things like Space Marines and Sisters of Battle but those were due to technological reasons and ideology/spirituality (the Sisters are the "brides of the Emperor or something) rather than endemic sexism.

Bigotry and hatred of aliens, mutants and such was part of the point of the setting and, possibly justified, all things given.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 14, 2013, 04:03:49 PM
I'm of the opinion that if someone wants a more inclusive facist grimdark setting, they can go ahead and make one themselves. Kickstart it.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Spinachcat on July 14, 2013, 04:43:48 PM
I love 40k, but I don't think a "more inclusive" setting is a terrible idea for a home campaign if that's what makes some gamers happy. Since Rogue Trader, it was common to have games where Eldar + IG or Eldar + Space Marines teamed up against Chaos, Orks, Tyranid, etc, just like in Warhammer Fantasy, we've played Dwarfs + Wood Elves vs. Chaos + Undead just so we could mix and match armies with Good vs. Evil sides. So there is plenty of precedent among minis wargamers for a more inclusive 40k.

As for me, I make my 40k RPGs as grimdark as possible because that's where i find the awesome and the humor of the setting. Our Earth fascists ain't got nothing on the Emperor of Mankind. He drinks teenage souls so his bureaucrats can make phone calls across space.

I do agree there should be more female IG figures. I can't see the Empire really caring what gender carries a lasgun into the meatgrinder of forever war.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Nexus on July 14, 2013, 04:51:24 PM
I don't think the Imperium gives a damn about what kind of junk soldiers have. Can they fight and die for the Emperor/Earth is all that matter. The fact that most of the illustration are male, well, I'd say that stems for the general dislike of seeing females mowed down/slaughtered/horribly threatened in western society (I hesitate to say human nature...). Most illustrations depicting mass combat, mook squads, etc show them as mostly if not all men (even in "progressive" games like Exalted...). Its a reflexive thing, IMO.

Edit: And for the record, I'm perfectly fine with Space Marines being men only. It gives them a certain feel and, for my group, at least. its not a big deal. If the women wanted to play Space Marines they'd play a guy (Like it really matters much...) and there'd be some male players that wouldn't find them very appealing to play because they prefer female PCs. There are institutions and groups that are restricted to female PCs (has there been any bitching about them?) anyway. It's not that "woman can't play" its "No one can play" this certain character concept (which in all honesty seems kind of dull to me). If someone wants to change that in their own games, that's cool. I'm all for house rules and there isn't a setting Ive gm'ed that I haven't modified in some fashion. But, in this case, I'm all right with canon.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Sergeant Brother on July 14, 2013, 04:53:05 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;670856I do agree there should be more female IG figures. I can't see the Empire really caring what gender carries a lasgun into the meatgrinder of forever war.

I personally prefer my Imperium to have more sexism in it. Patriarchal traditions and attitudes, gender roles, largely male soldiers, men usually in positions of power, and so on.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Catelf on July 14, 2013, 05:32:02 PM
I once would think "Hoorray" to the idea of a more inclusive 40K.
However, it went the other way.

Facts is, several people do not understand satire or irony, but instead endorses the exact same things that are satirized.

Question is, is the hobby even able to take any responsibility for that?
The hobby is clearly not responsible, so why would it claim responsibility?

Well, a doctor do not claim responsibility over the wounds and sicknesses they are treating, but they do claim responsibility over helping the wounded and the sick back to health.
But the hobby do not consist of doctors ...

Then one might also argue if a more inclusive 40K really would help?
Essentially, the original Rogue Trader was more inclusive, but it was also very much like a kind of Wild West or simply very disorganized.
However, i doubt the ones wanting inclusivness in 40K wants to bring back the Squats or the Imperial Guard - enlisted Beastmen.

I dislike severely the fashistoid parts of 40K, and made my own version of "Space Marines", and dubbed them Astra Force more than 15 years ago.
They do of course not exist in 40K, but in a different world.
However, i still find the jokes surrounding 40K, like the de-motivational posters and such entertaining.

Essentilally, would a more inclusive 40K help with the fact that too many can't understand satire?
No.

Is to want a more inclusive 40K to miss the point?
Not neccesarily, some of it may easily fit into an oldschool-like movement, and some inclusiveness may work within the setting.
However, only some.
One may have to, in the current definition, stretch the setting to the breaking point to allow for female-looking (non-chaos) Space Marines.
Essentially, it somehow would get more serious, part of the satire would vanish.
... Or would it?

Practically, i'm ambivalent on the matter.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: thedungeondelver on July 14, 2013, 08:54:20 PM
On the one hand, why should it matter.  Billions with a B of imperial troops die every day in battles on millions of worlds during campaigns.  It's funny to watch hardcore WH40k fatbeards become the mammy from Tom & Jerry treating women like mice, jumping up on a stool and shrieking as they pull up their copious skirts to avoid the frightening menace.

On the other hand, pointless insertion of things that are obviously included to appease SJWs is beyond goddamn ridiculous; insisting on a pan-gender* friendly WH40k is like insisting Andrea Dworkin should've had a regular column in Juggs.  

Finally, this is for Blackhand:

(http://1d4chan.org/images/5/55/Angrynerdrage.png)

...

* = just go google how many "genders" some permanent headcases thing there are and should have their own designation: it's a laugh riot.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Nexus on July 14, 2013, 09:15:41 PM
Does it matter in any fashion? Aside from Space Marines has it been stated that women are excluded or restricted in the Imperium military? You want more in your setting. Describe more of the billions of faceless mooks as having female bits. Hell, if you want female space marines just make them. You don't even have to change much or create entirely new women chapters to highlight how egalitarian your setting is. They're Space Marines of whatever Chapter, treated no differently from the others. Setting them up as some super special thing even seem a little counter to the protestations. You don't need the writer's permission or any great effort to do any of this. I don't see what the big fuss is about
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Ladybird on July 14, 2013, 09:48:33 PM
Quote from: Nexus;670896Does it matter in any fashion? Aside from Space Marines has it been stated that women are excluded or restricted in the Imperium military?

Nope. Male, female, red, blue, yellow, white; the Imperium does not care, except in a couple of very limited circumstances (Space Marines and Sisters of Battle). And the texts reflect this, mentioning female Guard, non-white soldiers, etc. 40k is a terrible place for many reasons, but they've moved beyond our petty *ism's and *phobias to an entire new level of hatred.

It would just be nice if the art and the model range actually reflected this.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that nobody should be able to see their own ethnicity in a 40k rulebook, regardless of what it is.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Bill on July 15, 2013, 06:10:02 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;670441(http://ordivodesign.com/uploads/2/8/0/3/2803495/9990090.jpg?491)

Excelsior true believer!

Perhaps that fellow is playing in a 'My Little Brony' LARP.



Look up My Little Brony on google; it is real.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/10/bronycon-2012-bronies-my-little-pony_n_1196695.html
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: TristramEvans on July 15, 2013, 06:14:54 AM
People who dress as equines scare me
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: apparition13 on July 15, 2013, 03:02:14 PM
Quote from: Nexus;670896Does it matter in any fashion? Aside from Space Marines has it been stated that women are excluded or restricted in the Imperium military? You want more in your setting. Describe more of the billions of faceless mooks as having female bits. Hell, if you want female space marines just make them. You don't even have to change much or create entirely new women chapters to highlight how egalitarian your setting is. They're Space Marines of whatever Chapter, treated no differently from the others. Setting them up as some super special thing even seem a little counter to the protestations. You don't need the writer's permission or any great effort to do any of this. I don't see what the big fuss is about
Yeah, pretty much this. There are plenty of females in the fiction; from what I can gather the Imperium seems to be of the opinion that since they are fighting for their lives they are going to use every resource available, which means they aren't going to leave half their population in the kitchen.

As for female space marines,

1. Can you even talk about Space Marines as being male? I had the impression they were asexual. Their gender identity is likely "killing machine for the emperor" rather than male, if you can even call that a gender identity.

2. The fluff contradicts itself. Space Marines are drawn from the best of the best, the most aggressive of Imperium troops, which implies they would mostly be in their 20s when recruited, but it also says the implants and therapies that make them Space Marines start when they are pre-pubescent.

Personally I think the first option makes more sense, and there's no reason there wouldn't be women who would fit that profile. Maybe less women, but then again maybe not, given that 40k is not our universe.

More importantly,
2. You're the GM, it's your world, do what you want. Who give a crap what GW or anyone else thinks or says?

I really don't get the subservient attitude a lot of people seem to have for BtB/RAW/cannon when it comes to gaming, whether it be fluff, mechanics, or anything else. If you want to do something differently, do it. Agonizing over it is pointless.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: RPGPundit on July 16, 2013, 03:34:06 AM
Quote from: Bill;670944Perhaps that fellow is playing in a 'My Little Brony' LARP.



Look up My Little Brony on google; it is real.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/10/bronycon-2012-bronies-my-little-pony_n_1196695.html

And you really felt a need to inflict this on the rest of us?!
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Catelf on July 16, 2013, 08:00:04 AM
Quote from: apparition13;670980As for female space marines,

1. Can you even talk about Space Marines as being male? I had the impression they were asexual. Their gender identity is likely "killing machine for the emperor" rather than male, if you can even call that a gender identity.

2. The fluff contradicts itself. Space Marines are drawn from the best of the best, the most aggressive of Imperium troops, which implies they would mostly be in their 20s when recruited, but it also says the implants and therapies that make them Space Marines start when they are pre-pubescent.

Personally I think the first option makes more sense, and there's no reason there wouldn't be women who would fit that profile. Maybe less women, but then again maybe not, given that 40k is not our universe.

More importantly,
2. You're the GM, it's your world, do what you want. Who give a crap what GW or anyone else thinks or says?

I really don't get the subservient attitude a lot of people seem to have for BtB/RAW/cannon when it comes to gaming, whether it be fluff, mechanics, or anything else. If you want to do something differently, do it. Agonizing over it is pointless.
1: They are male in looks, and canonically/traditionally defined as "men".
2: Interesting point there, though.
However, it has been implied, and confirmed by staff, that any femmes going through the process-into-space marines would end up looking like males, anyway ... and that is not what those who want female space marines normally is asking for.
3: WH40K did not originate as a rpg, it originated as a miniature game.
Miniature games has their origins in wargaming and tin soldiers more clearly, and as such, historical correctness and by extension fictional canon, is far more important.
Also, in a wargame, there is usually no GM, if you play it, you play by the Rules as Written, or at least by agreed-upon house rules.

Rpgs also evolved from wargames of the miniature-type, and the following of canon is just as much something derived from fan-mentality as it is from wargaming with miniatures - WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get).
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Rincewind1 on July 16, 2013, 12:10:41 PM
Actually 40k emerged as a mix between RPG and miniature game.

Personally, I think I like the idea of "hormone therapy" that turns everyone, no matter race nor gender, into a superbutch male (or perhaps even a sexless superbutch). Good material for trolling TBP's "cuties" as well. "Why do you protest 40k's setting, it's where you can finally become what you wanted to be!"
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Bill on July 16, 2013, 12:17:55 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;671121And you really felt a need to inflict this on the rest of us?!

Must be my particular sense of humor. I thought it was both hilarious and facinating on some level.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 16, 2013, 12:33:39 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;671210Actually 40k emerged as a mix between RPG and miniature game.

Not sure how you got that one, buddy.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Catelf on July 16, 2013, 12:37:11 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;671210Actually 40k emerged as a mix between RPG and miniature game.

I assume you refer to the original Rogue Trader.
Then i must point out, that already in the second edition, the first boxed one, it was a miniature-based wargame.

I cannot say that original RT did not have rpg-tendencies, because during the time i had it, i never managed to read through it all, and i wasn't as fluent in english then, as i am today.

Or are you perhaps referring to the world itself?
Then you may be true, but all games that i remember being based on 40K that was released back then, was miniature-based skirmishes or wargames, with only limited ways to affect the missions or campaigns.

Besides, rpgs are normally one Character per Player.
Skirmishes or larger normally uses several troopers.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 16, 2013, 12:57:18 PM
Quote from: Catelf;671232I assume you refer to the original Rogue Trader.

Rogue Trader was a wargame.

In fact, it had a lot in common with the wargames of the time.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Rincewind1 on July 16, 2013, 12:58:25 PM
Quote from: Catelf;671232I assume you refer to the original Rogue Trader.
Then i must point out, that already in the second edition, the first boxed one, it was a miniature-based wargame.

I cannot say that original RT did not have rpg-tendencies, because during the time i had it, i never managed to read through it all, and i wasn't as fluent in english then, as i am today.

Or are you perhaps referring to the world itself?
Then you may be true, but all games that i remember being based on 40K that was released back then, was miniature-based skirmishes or wargames, with only limited ways to affect the missions or campaigns.

Besides, rpgs are normally one Character per Player.
Skirmishes or larger normally uses several troopers.

You're probably right. I remember it was pretty fluffy for a wargame though.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: danbuter on July 16, 2013, 05:51:04 PM
Next up, the Sisters of Battle are sexist! Why do they get to be the only troops for the Church?!
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 16, 2013, 05:54:12 PM
Quote from: danbuter;671377Next up, the Sisters of Battle are sexist! Why do they get to be the only troops for the Church?!

Frateris Militia (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Frateris_Militia#.UeXA7o3VAxg).
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: danbuter on July 16, 2013, 06:01:46 PM
Exactly! The women get power armor and great training. The men are just the dregs thrown into battle with whatever they have in hand. Are men not religious enough? Again, it's SEXISM!
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Blackhand on July 16, 2013, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: danbuter;671385SEXISM!

Which completely stupefies me.

Can't everyone see it's more about RACISM!
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: Ladybird on July 16, 2013, 06:22:29 PM
Quote from: danbuter;671377Next up, the Sisters of Battle are sexist! Why do they get to be the only troops for the Church?!

Because the Eccelsiarchy isn't allowed men under arms.

Given the difficulties the Imperium has making anything as complicated as Power Armour, a few million suits for the Sisters is a serious investment, and shows a lot of faith in them.
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: James Gillen on July 16, 2013, 08:10:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;670208So I'm not the biggest fan of the WH40K universe as it stands, but really, isn't the notion recently presented by certain people on certain other rpg forums about trying to make an "inclusive" (of gender, and apparently species) 40K universe really just a catastrophically stupid case of missing the point??

I thought that's what Eldar were for.

JG
Title: "a more inclusive 40k universe"... seriously??
Post by: danbuter on July 16, 2013, 09:05:44 PM
Quote from: Ladybird;671398Because the Eccelsiarchy isn't allowed men under arms.

Given the difficulties the Imperium has making anything as complicated as Power Armour, a few million suits for the Sisters is a serious investment, and shows a lot of faith in them.

Your sarcasm meter is broken. Or you are the one guy who never gets the joke. :idunno: