Been meaning to start this thread, brought on by an exchange in the recent CPRed thread:
Quote from: Jaeger on February 28, 2024, 04:34:31 PM
One of the issues my group and I had was that we felt the exploding d10 mechanic didn't really add anything to the resolution system that a d20, or more probability speaking, something like a d16 would, other than re-rolls at least 20% of the time just to get to the same place.
...
Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2024, 05:03:04 PM
I've only been running it online and the character sheet does auto rerolls on a 10. I can see it'd be vexing in person, probably best to roll 2d10 of different colours with one being the wild die. I actually really like the results it gives in play. ...
In my opinion; You can get very different perspectives on a RPG system depending on whether a group plays live, vs. through a VTT that automates the game mechanics.
I've really noticed this on other forums with games like WFRP 4e and PF2e.
WFRP 4e: Most of a thread bitching about how they made it overcomplicated with lots of stuff to track, then that one guy jumps in says that
everyone is wrong, and the system works great and he likes it's effects.
But when asked he states that he exclusively games via VTT set up for running WFRP4e, and everyone complaining was running live with a home group...
PF2e: Similar situation: In particular I came across a channel that is essentially a PF2e fanboy stream. He runs it exclusively online with a VTT. Most people that complain about it being over complicated, and too much to track on various other forums, primarily play in live home groups.
The reality: VTT's are here to stay.
So many people just find it much easier to get a steady group when the world is your player pool.
But I feel that over time you will see a growing divide in the hobby between those that primarily play via VTT, and those that play live.
I have no idea how pronounced that divide will become, but seeing as how some VTT companies are designing RPG's that take advantage of VTT automation, one is surely coming.
Going the other way; I can see the ubiquity of VTT's inducing a soft limit on the amount of complexity RPG's played live will start to have.
The fallout on the hobby from all this will of course play out over years as VTT's get better.
The tea leaves are murky on this one...
There are certainly systems I would not want to touch without automation, but I despise animation and graphics replacing imagination.
It makes perfect sense that rule heavy games might as well lean into VTT automation for ease of play. Conversely, meat-space games aught not lean much to rules-lite as there are plenty of annoyances that end up contributing to a better macro experience. Polishing out all the "players complain about it" rough spots does not leave much of a game.
Personally, I would prefer a hybrid where the character sheet is automated and interlinked but the table top representation is omitted.
I prefer, and play, in-person, but I blend VTT and automated sheets with my games.
Maps are loaded to Roll20, or something similar, and character sheets/rulebooks are PDFs or automated if available.
Maps are then displayed on the 40 inch TV and miniatures (NOT tokens) are used.
I find this to be the best of both worlds.
I think we'll begin to see more and more games specifically designed for one or the other. I know that I designed my system exclusively for live play. (The initiative system is one that I think would work better on VTT than most systems work there, but even that I designed for live. Had there been a trade off, I'd have picked the live option.)
In particular, the communication stream is more difficult to manage online. Sure, having a map and tokens and so forth can help with that, same as it does in person. However, I suspect that there are some chat-based options that could turn a relative minus into at least a wash, if a game were designed with that in mind.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 13, 2024, 11:32:52 PM
I think we'll begin to see more and more games specifically designed for one or the other. I know that I designed my system exclusively for live play. (The initiative system is one that I think would work better on VTT than most systems work there, but even that I designed for live. Had there been a trade off, I'd have picked the live option.)
In particular, the communication stream is more difficult to manage online. Sure, having a map and tokens and so forth can help with that, same as it does in person. However, I suspect that there are some chat-based options that could turn a relative minus into at least a wash, if a game were designed with that in mind.
Please note: I prefer to play in person and one of the games I run is in person.
But I run Old School Essentials and play in an AD&D 5e game online using Fantasy Grounds. FG just had an update and now you can do 3d tokes and even have maps in a sudo 3d which looks like a map at a table that you are looking down at and you can have 3d tokens. So online play is getting much better.
Doesnt and I don't think ti ever will beat in person play. My group for my OSE game uses a Discord server with channels for discussing in game information, one for scheduling, one that has the map and the descriptions of the different kinddoms and finally a channel for voice play and it works at well.
Saying that, if I can play in person over online, in person wins every time.
I use a digital table top for real play and I use digital tokens for beasts and players and we roll at the table. I've also used Fantasy Grounds to run for my online games and for online play, Fantasy Grounds makes it easier. The effects can be a pain to keep on a character but it works well.
Personally, I'd rather have my digital table top playing fantasy ground but have my players at the table to simplify combat and have everyone engaged at the table myself. It seems to be the best mix. And the dice roller comes to closest to rolling actual dice I've seen. Oh god, do not look at the dice roller on D&D Beyond, its like they a 3D animator, gave him a crack colonic and told him to create their dice system.
The OP makes an interesting point. I like to play and design complicated systems where lots of things matter. It gives a lot of ways to interact with the game. On the other hand, I don't like taking a lot of time ti figure out mechanics. VTT automation seems like an idea solution, you can have the rules depth and quick resolutions. That's great.
Another advantage is that the system can be made opaque. When I'm gaming I want to be thinking in terms of interacting with the imaginary environment, not rolling dice and figuring out where I can get another +1 bonus. I think my ideal game would be one where I only know the underlying mechanics in a qualitative general sort of way. VTT allows that.
Some of the other stuff doesn't appeal. For me, zoom gaming is never going to equal being with friends around the table. And sketching on a battlemat with a marker is so much faster than using a computer to draw terrain that I wouldn't even consider the latter.
I guess like others said above, I would prefer a partial VTT, with rule automation, but little else
Interesting thread! Yes CP:R is the first game I've run in VTT without running it first tabletop, and there is definitely a perspective shift. The way I think about rules, maps, art/tokens etc is different.
I have a real life group, where we use a relatively simple system, and a VTT group scattered all the way from Boston to Beijing (with me in Indiana).
The VTT group is about to start an Exalted campaign; something I would never even consider touching in real life because rolling buckets of dice (my unaugmented attack is 15 dice and with charms could be up to 25) is about my least favorite thing ever (maybe if they were the tiny d6's so I could actually shake them all in my hands and I colored the success sides so they'd be obvious at a glance it would be tolerable, but standard sized d10's? GAH!).
The automated rolling and a character sheet that lets you plug in all the dice rolling shenanigans of the system so an entire attack is resolved in about three mouse clicks. Still not as fast as rolling a d20 and your damage die together in my live game, but also not torture either.
Yes, there will be a divide, just as there was when MtG was released. And I think it's only a matter of time before a smart designer ditches the whole VTT concept and simply makes a product which more directly caters to this emerging market.
Quote from: Vanadium Angel on March 13, 2024, 11:26:41 PM
I prefer, and play, in-person, but I blend VTT and automated sheets with my games.
Maps are loaded to Roll20, or something similar, and character sheets/rulebooks are PDFs or automated if available.
Maps are then displayed on the 40 inch TV and miniatures (NOT tokens) are used.
I find this to be the best of both worlds.
I've done this as well. My players complained that either A, there was too much glare from the room lights, or if they were lowered, not enough light to see character sheets and dice rolls.
So lately I've been using owlbear rodeo on my 75-inch TV in the living room and giving links to the room. Everyone controls their token from their device.
Have yo ufound a way to reduce glare to such a point that minis are a better option?
Quote from: Godsmonkey on March 14, 2024, 11:37:08 AM
Quote from: Vanadium Angel on March 13, 2024, 11:26:41 PM
I prefer, and play, in-person, but I blend VTT and automated sheets with my games.
Maps are loaded to Roll20, or something similar, and character sheets/rulebooks are PDFs or automated if available.
Maps are then displayed on the 40 inch TV and miniatures (NOT tokens) are used.
I find this to be the best of both worlds.
I've done this as well. My players complained that either A, there was too much glare from the room lights, or if they were lowered, not enough light to see character sheets and dice rolls.
So lately I've been using owlbear rodeo on my 75-inch TV in the living room and giving links to the room. Everyone controls their token from their device.
Have yo ufound a way to reduce glare to such a point that minis are a better option?
I don't have any glare issues, I guess it is due to the type of TV screen and the lights I use, or maybe the angle of the lights. Nobody has complained so far. Plus, the players use the online character sheets on Roll20 or DNDBeyond from their tablet or laptop.
My biggest two issues with online/VTT only play is that communication kind of sucks if it is audio only, and IMHO you don't have the same thrills online vs an in-person group. There is something special about a group sitting around the same table and creating these amazing stories. Virtual gaming is so artificial by comparison.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on March 14, 2024, 11:37:08 AM
Quote from: Vanadium Angel on March 13, 2024, 11:26:41 PM
I prefer, and play, in-person, but I blend VTT and automated sheets with my games.
Maps are loaded to Roll20, or something similar, and character sheets/rulebooks are PDFs or automated if available.
Maps are then displayed on the 40 inch TV and miniatures (NOT tokens) are used.
I find this to be the best of both worlds.
I've done this as well. My players complained that either A, there was too much glare from the room lights, or if they were lowered, not enough light to see character sheets and dice rolls.
So lately I've been using owlbear rodeo on my 75-inch TV in the living room and giving links to the room. Everyone controls their token from their device.
Have yo ufound a way to reduce glare to such a point that minis are a better option?
The glare problem is not the devices, it's the lighting in your room. No one can help you with that without knowing what that set up looks like.
The important thing to remember about virtual tabletops is that they're a tool. You utilize as much or as little as you want.
There are certainly strengths to using a virtual tabletop to deal with D&D3E, PF2E, or other similar systems. Exalted is another prime candidate, at least for the first two editions. I lost track after that. The downside to those games is that it takes more setup time to load everything into the program, or else you have to pay someone else to do it for you in the form of premium content.
Mostly I use Foundry to host a map with tokens. It's incredibly useful for keeping track of positioning and line of sight, especially for a play-by-post style game. I should use it to track mechanics more than I do for online games. The thing is, at the table the only thing I really need it for is to display a battle map, so I've never bothered to explore its other capabilities.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 14, 2024, 10:05:54 AM
Yes, there will be a divide, just as there was when MtG was released. And I think it's only a matter of time before a smart designer ditches the whole VTT concept and simply makes a product which more directly caters to this emerging market.
"Unreal Engine D&D 6 has joined the chat..."
For real, HASBRO has been absolutely BURNING cash on programmers, artists, and game developers to create EXACTLY this. It will in all likelihood be integrated as an optional premium subscription add-on for D&D Beyond and rolled out to automate just about everything that the GM wants it to up to an including generative dialogue for NPCs when players/PCs interact with them via text speech/prompt.
I'm assuming that it will be rolled out with its own launcher client instead of using the Steam or Epic game launcher so they can avoid having losing money to those platforms. It will eventually end up being rolled out in partnership with Microsoft and Sony to their gaming consoles once they can hammer out halfway usable ports to those systems and the whole thing will play very much like a CRPG where the GM controls the clock, takes place in a kind of group call where you can whisper to individual participants when needed and have a usable but initially feature lacking chat channel system to communicate in text for both IC and OOC chatting.
I expect it to be formally announced by the end of the year and initially launched in some rather barebones fashion sometime in the q4 2025 - q2 2026 timeframe with regular free updates, a GIANT store full of microtransactions (ranging from virtual dice, character emotes, new and exclusive character models, clothing/equipment, as well as allowing for piecemal purchase of RULES elements that you use to build you character), and will have quarterly DLC that coincides with new book releases for the game.
VTTs have been around since at least the 90s and probably earlier in text format. MUDs and MUCKs. Quite a few MUCKs have a dice roller function.
I own Foundry and Fantasy Grounds and play a mix of VTT and in-person games. I prefer in-person, there's no substitute to the people actually being in the room with you, but VTTs are indispensable for being able to play with distant people and offer a lot of QoL benefits on the side with easy access to references, auto-calculating rolls, etc. Also, when running a game in VTT, I can just snag pictures off the internet and throw together maps and tokens from them in minutes, no need to sweat finding a mini for whatever person or monster before the weekend's game. Being a VR nerd, I've thrown money at a couple VR VTT projects even though they're being done by small teams and I think are unlikely to succeed, because the potential of that would be insanely cool if someone actually pulls it off.
I run face-to-face almost exclusively. When I have to pipe player(s) in, I do so via cameras with Discord. I don't use VTT's. I do use a battlemat and minis for important fights and certain adventure segments. But I use a lot of theater of the mind mostly.
I could never see myself or my players using a VTT. I find it unnecessary. I don't really have a problem finding players, rather than finding players that are mature enough to play in my games. My preference is always face-to-face. I think virtual loses a lot of fidelity and depth to which I like to play.
Given my options - if I had to go full virtual, I'd just stop GMing TTRPGS (which is weird to even think about, but I'd do it) and continue playing MMO's with friends and family.
To me, VTT just seems like a bad MMO. Why not just play an MMO or team video game and get that whole vidya gamer experience?
I've tried online play via video chats, but it doesn't hold my attention as a GM or players. I need that face to face / theater of the mind interaction.
Quote from: Spinachcat on March 16, 2024, 01:47:36 AM
To me, VTT just seems like a bad MMO. Why not just play an MMO or team video game and get that whole vidya gamer experience?
I've tried online play via video chats, but it doesn't hold my attention as a GM or players. I need that face to face / theater of the mind interaction.
Have you seen the ping on a US server for someone playing from China? VTT lag you don't even notice.
And seriously, that's the only reason I have a VTT game I'm in. Really good group, but they're presently spread across half-the-globe.
You know the adage "No table is better than a bad table?" its sorta the opposite for VTT "a great table is worth the hassles of VTT to hold onto."
My group is on the west coast. I'm on the east coast. We use Owlbear Rodeo for the dice roller. Google Meet for the video link. Theater of the mind for the game. And it rocks!!
Adapt, Improvise, and Overcome.
Do what you need to do.
Not gaming sucks.
Playing TTRPG even over remote software rocks!!!
Caveat: With the right people.
If you're in some shitsplat town with no ttrpg activity, online is your only option. Online can also connect you to old gaming friends who live far away. It aint a "divide" it's a new medium to play ttrpgs and it's a good thing. Anything that connects gamers so we can kill more monsters and get rich is GOOD.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/oBPOP48aQpIxq/200w.gif)
I play both (not VTT but Roll20 with discord), but I prefer ftf. As do a lot of players, but some groups just can't meet ftf. VTT fills a need, but even with a decent set-up it's not a patch on ftf. The issue with ftf is getting a place to play that all the players can turn up to. So most of my games are online for this reason. I'd prefer them to be ftf, but it's just not possible.
I do a lot of RPG sessions online through things like skype. I have been in games using VTT stuff but it isn't my cup of tea. It feels like a very different experience to me than keeping things theater of the mind. The only software I rely on occasionally are things like character generators (which can be an easy way to make NPCs or PCs on the fly)
I had a pretty good run with the Sunday Skypers and that was all online through several campaigns. But, we automated nothing except for some shared dice rolls or maps.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 13, 2024, 09:55:46 PM
In my opinion; You can get very different perspectives on a RPG system depending on whether a group plays live, vs. through a VTT that automates the game mechanics.
Definitely! I went from table to discord during COVID and it completely changed a few aspects. For example, rolling a d27 is very easy, and you could easily introduce 1d7 and 1d9 weapons if you wanted. OTOH mapping was a little hard until I got the hang of it.
Another thing is that some VTTs (I imagine) will not have fudging tools, so the GM has to roll fairly... which many 5e fans do not like. I'm curious to see how this will turn out.
I prefer playing live. However, due to scheduling etc. I think online play will be my reality 99% of the time now.
I think the OP asks a very interesting question.
I've been lurking on this board for at least a year before I started posting. One impression I got was that there was a divide between the VTT and Table crowd. But that just my impression.
I'm in that group of people that if I want to play, I have no choice but to play with a VTT. I live in a very small community, very far north, and really it's the only chance I have. I know one other person who plays RPG's (and I've looked and asked around). And it's only 5e, and it's a closed group, and 3 of the 6 people who play are playing by VTT.
Playing by VTT raises, as others have said, some good oppurtunities to automate some of the crunch. But I got to thinking: "Fine, I can automate stuff, so why would I 'handcuff' myself playing a game meant for tables, pen and paper and dice? Let's see what this VTT can do. How can I really use all this automation, craft some rules that still mean something playing your character, without the players worrying about tracking each and every sling bullet."
More than that; How can I use the VTT as a GM to augment what I'm presenting to the players, make that encounter come alive. Raise the tension. Make the hair stand up on the back of their necks. Get the blood pumping.
Don't get me wrong. I'd love to join a table group of good people, regular game night sort of thing. Have a couple of beers, roll some dice, kill things. But, the possibilities of a VTT, they make a guy think.
Ag.
Quote from: aganauton on March 24, 2024, 10:46:52 AM
But, the possibilities of a VTT, they make a guy think.
Like most new technologies, VTT creates new possibilities but there is always a corresponding cost. It may be hard to envision right now for some but I expect AI to advance so much that the need for GMs and even other players will become optional (solo RPGs have already proven that). Technology is accelerating our isolation and because it is so convenient and easy, it's hard to resist.
For me VTT takes away the "soul" of the game. I can't replace or replicate the face to face interaction.
I think that the defining difference between a tabletop game in general--but RPGs especially--and a video game is that you are actually doing the operations to run the game with your own brain. This means that VTTs and in-person pen and paper RPGs have radically different game feels, and it's basically only a matter of time before the VTT end of the equation loops back around and becomes video games because VTTs provide the game feel of a video game.
And let's be real; game design structures like Minecraft can give first order approximations to RPG freedom.
Quote from: Silverblade on March 24, 2024, 07:07:41 PM
I expect AI to advance so much that the need for GMs and even other players will become optional (solo RPGs have already proven that).
I've dabbled with the solo RPG thing with AI chat bots. I had a great time. But, and it's a big but, current AI is nowhere near ready for GM duties.
In the case of solo play, I've had years of experience across a dozen systems and it worked for me because I used the AI like an oracle. An oracle, in solo RPG parlance, is a random procedural tool for answering questions. Some folks call it a GM emulator, but I think that's not wise since the player really needs to wear the PC and the GM hat. They need to interpret results and ask targeted questions to get the system to perform as anticipated. It's a skill and one the AI does not have. There are a number of things that AI currently fails hard at like memory limits (tokens), forgetfulness of story threads and NPCs, breaking scene emersion, outright hallucinating (in non-constructive ways), failing at rules or switching systems, etc. They can work as oracles when you give them limited, context specific questions, and rein in their non-productive flights of fancy.
So, I think there is a future, but not as a miracle GM replacement. It can be fine addition for a no-prep GM, a GM-less group (they still do their own interpretations when needed), or as an oracle for solo play.
Quote from: Wisithir on March 13, 2024, 10:21:45 PM
It makes perfect sense that rule heavy games might as well lean into VTT automation for ease of play. Conversely, meat-space games aught not lean much to rules-lite as there are plenty of annoyances that end up contributing to a better macro experience. Polishing out all the "players complain about it" rough spots does not leave much of a game.
Rather, they should be rules light, since annoyances make the experience worse by definition, and removing them doesn't remove the game.
Quote from: Silverblade on March 24, 2024, 07:07:41 PM
Technology is accelerating our isolation
This is one area AI is undoubtedly harmful.
Ironic how information technology does more to isolate us than bring us together. It's deeply depressing.
"It's like a video game!" has long been a curse uttered by tabletop gamers. It got brought out against 4e, I remember all the, "It's World of Warcraft!" back then even though it was not remotely like World of Warcraft. As they stand now, VTTs have basically zilch to do with video games. Some setups you can click on the button for your +1 dagger and it rolls the attack and damage dice, but that does nothing outside of what already happens at a table when you sit there and roll those dice. Everything is still in the hands of the GM to arbitrate. There's also an increase in theatre of the mind setups that I've seen, where instead of battlemats the GM is just putting up a picture of a scene and eschewing the whole tactical combat part. A future may certainly come where products come out with pre-baked or procedurally generated adventures and run themselves like a video game, but that is not the state of things today and there's no reason to believe that it will overtake human GMs. I enjoy video game RPGs well enough, but even the best-designed ones can't give the freedom of options that you have when dealing with humans.
The question positions VTTs vs Live Play, but for me there are two distinctions there: Live vs Remote, and Battlemat vs ToTM.
I personally prefer Live Play immensely, and don't even feel that remote play is quite the same activity. Like others, I have enjoyed remote play when no live game was available (which is rare for me, because I tend to put my effort into creating games and teaching players, moreso than finding games with existing players).
But I don't use a battlemat for either live or remote play, and VTT's are just remote battlemats (along with mechanical tools to replace hands, which all my players have at least one of, or some reasonable working substitute).
Sure, I've drawn a scene on Owlbear Rodeo to illustrate something, but I've also done the same just as effectively on any ol' digital whiteboard, or even just a piece of paper held up to the camera. I wouldn't call that "using a VTT".
I have seen people making comparisons between using a VTT and playing an MMO. You may as well just play an MMO and such. As someone who has played several MMOs and spent thousands of hours running games on a VTT, these two things are almost nothing alike. The similarities are very superficial. They both involve computers and have graphics. The way they play is nothing alike.
Do any vet have map drawing tools or do you import/buy maps for all?
Quote from: Ruprecht on March 28, 2024, 06:49:50 AM
Do any vet have map drawing tools or do you import/buy maps for all?
Roll20 has very simple drawing tools. They are pretty much useless for map making though.
Most VTTs will let a GM just start drawing on a grid if you want to do it old school, sure. I'm personally subscribed to a couple patreon guys who do animated maps for a couple bucks a month, and there are mapping tools like Dungeon Alchemist that export into VTT formats with walls and lighting pre-configured depending on how much effort one wishes to put in.
The RPG Engine lets you make maps and miniatures like building with Lego blocks.
So, if you download a miniature or map from the Steam Workshop, you can easily edit it to meet your own story needs.
Being a fully 3D VTT, it lets you have the actual character view of what is going on around them.
Depending on how detailed a scene needs to be, it can be quick to build or long. Being able to pull premade stuff down and stick them together is very flexible.
I totally prefer live gaming, face to face; but I also understand someone doing what they have to, to make a game happen.
Quote from: Man at Arms on March 31, 2024, 04:00:06 PM
I totally prefer live gaming, face to face; but I also understand someone doing what they have to, to make a game happen.
Agreed. I always prefer an in person game but if it was playing via a VTT or not playing at all, I would play or run via VTT (I am running one game by VTT right now because it was easier to get players with this system.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 25, 2024, 01:15:21 PM
Quote from: Silverblade on March 24, 2024, 07:07:41 PM
Technology is accelerating our isolation
This is one area AI is undoubtedly harmful.
Ironic how information technology does more to isolate us than bring us together. It's deeply depressing.
That isn't technology. That's other stuff. Our gaming group, who have become friends over the year we've been playing Traveller and doing one shots, is all over the world. (The UK, Canada, and both US coasts, and us in the middle are "all over the world, right?) It wouldn't be possible without that technology.
Quote from: Greentongue on March 29, 2024, 02:40:20 PM
The RPG Engine lets you make maps and miniatures like building with Lego blocks.
So, if you download a miniature or map from the Steam Workshop, you can easily edit it to meet your own story needs.
Being a fully 3D VTT, it lets you have the actual character view of what is going on around them.
Depending on how detailed a scene needs to be, it can be quick to build or long. Being able to pull premade stuff down and stick them together is very flexible.
At a certain point, fully 3D VTT's can devolve to video games with extra steps. It will really depend how quick making maps gets to see if 3D VTT's will really take over from the flat-map version which can be as quick to set up as anything on your home table. But even flat maps can be a bit much when you add on all the bells and whistles some VTT's have.
Even with a VTT, I like think it better to still leave some stuff to the imagination. At a certain point, just like video games, a fully 3D VTT is doing your imagination for you...
All that said, if you got a decent group; VTT RPG gaming is better than no RPG gaming. (I run our sunday group over the table, tuesday night I'm a player via VTT.)
I prefer over the table because even with a VTT you miss a lot of the non-visual cues from the group and fellow players that can really bring a session alive. No matter how good, a VTT is still an electronic filter between you and the rest fo the group.
Another thing I have seen with VTT's is that they do tend to enforce more RAW play. It's the nature of the beast as everything has to be programed in. I see that as a feature though, not a bug. (Of course those doing ToM via various VTT solutions excepted...)
I do think that ultimately we'll see how people react to the full-on 3d VTT's as they roll out. A lot will depend on how user friendly they are, and how much they add to prep if you want to do your own thing vs the pre-made modules that will come out.
My preferred VTT map would involve a camera rig above a piece of paper I can write/draw on with an actual pen and the players see and drop their "minis" down onto if positioning becomes important.
Right now even the best ones would require me to map ahead of time and scan it in, then scale it to a grid. This runs very counter to my improvisational style (developed from decades of primarily running sandbox modern settings where globetrotting was always on the table) and makes it a real pain to run much beyond dungeon crawls or railroads if you're using the tabletop aspect.
Similarly, my ideal enemy mini is a die glued to a base with the 1 through 6 up on six identical dice. Repeat in as many colors as needed so my players can just call out Red 4 or Green 3 for their targets. This latter is at least doable via colored digital pogs.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 01, 2024, 04:41:41 PM
My preferred VTT map would involve a camera rig above a piece of paper I can write/draw on with an actual pen and the players see and drop their "minis" down onto if positioning becomes important.
...
The original OwlBear Rodeo VTT was like that - You could choose Grey, beige green grid backgrounds, then draw on it like in ms paint with the tools right there. You also could drop tokens easy.
It was the closest I've seen to a drop it down and go VTT.
Most others I have seen tend to have more steps...
I can draw a map live in Roll20 VTT. It won't be pretty, but no worse than MSPaint.
Edit: Honestly though I can probably Google a nice map off Reddit just as quick.
Quote from: S'mon on April 01, 2024, 06:28:45 PM
I can draw a map live in Roll20 VTT. It won't be pretty, but no worse than MSPaint.
Edit: Honestly though I can probably Google a nice map off Reddit just as quick.
Greetings!
S'mon, my friend! You run an outstanding VTT game campaign! Yes, of course, such is not as good as Face-to-face, but, when members are separated by continents and vast oceans like we are--I confess, playing in your game campaign was impressive, and such fun! Relaxed, casual, happy, and fun! I look forward to the next game!
I'm still not going to embrace WOTC's "ONED&D" or whatever VTT newspeak monstrosity they try and push onto the hobby though. But, we are of like mind on that though, for certain. VTT with you and the gang though? Yeah, call me.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 01, 2024, 06:54:57 PM
I'm still not going to embrace WOTC's "ONED&D" or whatever VTT newspeak monstrosity they try and push onto the hobby though. But, we are of like mind on that though, for certain. VTT with you and the gang though? Yeah, call me.
;D Any interest in playing Cyberpunk Red? One group are running guns to anti-government Resistance in Texas, while a second hunt Antifa cop killers in Night City. ;D
Quote from: Jaeger on April 01, 2024, 06:02:03 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 01, 2024, 04:41:41 PM
My preferred VTT map would involve a camera rig above a piece of paper I can write/draw on with an actual pen and the players see and drop their "minis" down onto if positioning becomes important.
...
The original OwlBear Rodeo VTT was like that - You could choose Grey, beige green grid backgrounds, then draw on it like in ms paint with the tools right there. You also could drop tokens easy.
It was the closest I've seen to a drop it down and go VTT.
Most others I have seen tend to have more steps...
Yeah, I'm talking about a real pen and real paper. I can draw 20x faster with a pen than a mouse. I know there are tablets digital artists use, but I prefer to see the image under my pen rather than having to look at a screen as I draw.
Basically, my ideal would be the ability to drop VTT elements on top of a livestream (of a piece of paper.
Quote from: Silverblade on March 24, 2024, 07:07:41 PM
Quote from: aganauton on March 24, 2024, 10:46:52 AM
But, the possibilities of a VTT, they make a guy think.
Like most new technologies, VTT creates new possibilities but there is always a corresponding cost. It may be hard to envision right now for some but I expect AI to advance so much that the need for GMs and even other players will become optional (solo RPGs have already proven that). Technology is accelerating our isolation and because it is so convenient and easy, it's hard to resist.
For me VTT takes away the "soul" of the game. I can't replace or replicate the face to face interaction.
Sorry, a bit late to conversion, but work and my new g/f (she's white, classic and 4400 lbs) kind of got in the way.
I have to dis-agree with you here, with a caveat. The 'soul' of the game is the GM, players and the interactions between the people.
Now the caveat. I get that for some people, it's not necessarily the game. It's the 'getting together with friends' that is the draw. The game may change but friends, that can't be quantified. To put it another way: I watch hockey. I love watching hockey. I can only watch the games on TV because I live in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere. It's better when a bunch of my friends get together to watch hockey. We drink, laugh, yell at the the TV. We have a really good time.
But that doesn't compare to going to an actual hockey game. I would treat myself once a year. Get really good seats (ice level, in an end zone). Now that was watching hockey. So I can understand when a person say's VTT's don't quite cut it.
But a VTT is only the medium through which the game is being played. And as others have said, a VTT game is better than no game.
I personally use RPTools. Yeah it's a bit of a bear, but I've been mucking around with the system for a while, so I got it's number. The best part, it's open source, it's continually improving and I can run my own server. So any of those cancel fucks can go pound sand.
Quote from: aganauton on April 03, 2024, 03:48:48 PM
Now the caveat. I get that for some people, it's not necessarily the game. It's the 'getting together with friends' that is the draw. The game may change but friends, that can't be quantified. To put it another way: I watch hockey. I love watching hockey. I can only watch the games on TV because I live in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere. It's better when a bunch of my friends get together to watch hockey. We drink, laugh, yell at the the TV. We have a really good time.
But that doesn't compare to going to an actual hockey
But a VTT is only the medium through which the game is being played. And as others have said, a VTT game is better than no game.
I understand your position and it's a reasonable position. I am probably fairly unique and see a slippery slope.
Is there a reason why you and a bunch of your friends couldn't FaceTime each other while watching hockey? That to me would be the closest comparison to VTT. You can drink, eat, cheer but not next to each other.
I think the reason people don't do that (I don't know maybe there are people who watch sports together virtually) is because it still feels strange to do so. But tabletop has changed. VTT is widely accepted and now more and more are comfortable with it. So much, some prefer it. The convenience is tempting and attractive.
We are getting used to being isolated. We are used to just staring at screens.
Quote from: Silverblade on April 04, 2024, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: aganauton on April 03, 2024, 03:48:48 PM
Now the caveat. I get that for some people, it's not necessarily the game. It's the 'getting together with friends' that is the draw. The game may change but friends, that can't be quantified. To put it another way: I watch hockey. I love watching hockey. I can only watch the games on TV because I live in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere. It's better when a bunch of my friends get together to watch hockey. We drink, laugh, yell at the the TV. We have a really good time.
But that doesn't compare to going to an actual hockey
But a VTT is only the medium through which the game is being played. And as others have said, a VTT game is better than no game.
I understand your position and it's a reasonable position. I am probably fairly unique and see a slippery slope.
Is there a reason why you and a bunch of your friends couldn't FaceTime each other while watching hockey? That to me would be the closest comparison to VTT. You can drink, eat, cheer but not next to each other.
I think the reason people don't do that (I don't know maybe there are people who watch sports together virtually) is because it still feels strange to do so. But tabletop has changed. VTT is widely accepted and now more and more are comfortable with it. So much, some prefer it. The convenience is tempting and attractive.
We are getting used to being isolated. We are used to just staring at screens.
I don't know if VTT is better than having no game at all. It probably is but I do think it is damaging how the game will be played in the future once all the grognards like myself are gone.