I suppose some of you have heard that there's finally going to be something of a campaign book for 5e on the Realms. Apparently its going to focus on only one area of Faerun, the Sword Coast, but it will update the whole situation in the Realms as of 5e.
Only, Wizards has licensed it out to Green Ronin (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/scag).
What do you think about that?
Green Ronin is a great outfit. Good move on WotC's part.
edit: They *BETTER* do a book for each subsection of the Faerun as an ongoing thing.
Quote from: RPGPundit;843762I suppose some of you have heard that there's finally going to be something of a campaign book for 5e on the Realms. Apparently its going to focus on only one area of Faerun, the Sword Coast, but it will update the whole situation in the Realms as of 5e.
Only, Wizards has licensed it out to Green Ronin (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/scag).
What do you think about that?
I am a bit surprised Green Ronin would say yes and not focus on stuff like their Ice and Fire games.
I've been led to believe that the WotC staff for D&D is tiny, but damn, that's...not the move I would have made.
I thought 5th made money on it's release, so why not, idk, do this sort of thing themselves?
I don't mind who makes it, as long as it's decent quality content-wise and the physical quality of the book and WotC gives it the nod.
I haven't gotten into 5E yet, and Forgotten Realms has never been my thing, so my opinion only matters so much. Personally, I prefer setting books with a narrower focus. It's easier to get a book with more playable content that way. World books often feel more like a teaser for the narrower books that come later.
Well, it's in good hands, although i'm not too thrilled on the fine focus on one area of a massive setting. Whatever, i've still got all my other FR stuff from other editions. I'm not interested in 'canon' so it's no biggy.
Green Ronin are a safe pair of hands to do updates to beloved settings - look at the bang-up job they did of WFRP 2E. (Just about the only thing I dislike about it is the Storm of Chaos stuff, and their hands were kind of tied on that.)
As far as the regional focus goes, I think it works for Forgotten Realms because that world has seen such a vast amount of material published for it that at this point a whole-world overview would be just that - a broad overview that doesn't go into much fine detail. Hopefully they will be sensible about which worlds they take this regional approach with in future and which they take a broader approach with. (It'd be ludicrous to do Planescape or Ravenloft in this style, for instance, but it'd work for Dark Sun - especially since the interesting part of that setting is the core region under the sway of the Dragon-Kings and its surrounding environs anyway.)
On top of that, thanks to Baldur's Gate and sequels the Sword Coast has become the iconic region of the Realms for a wide audience anyway (and the upcoming Sword Coast Legends videogame seems to be playing on that), so they've picked the right region to focus on first. Since they'll be including a brief overview of the Realms too ("Discover the current state of the Forgotten Realms and its deities after the Spellplague and the second Sundering"), and since they'll be providing a whole heap of Realms-specific backgrounds and subclasses and races in the book, it seems to me that it'd be reasonably easy to use the book to run adventures set elsewhere in the Realms by either making up the fine detail yourself or updating older materials. Plus, if they've already covered the Realms-specific crunch and the campaign setting overview in this book, then hopefully subsequent regional modules will either be slimmer and cheaper affairs (because they won't need the same page count) or they'll use the same page count to cover a broader area to a similar level of detail.
Lastly, based on what's actually in the book, it looks like this is a core setting book designed for both players and DMs to use rather than a DMs-only book. That's commercially sensible - selling to a broader audience makes the project more viable - and I also think there'll be advantages in play. Having a background book designed for players to read will allow them to get up to speed on the campaign setting; keeping such setting material player-facing means that they'll have to keep some things mysterious, which not only allows them to use that for Adventurers' League fodder but also allows GMs to come up with their own explanations for setting mysteries and adapt it accordingly.
Bottom line: Wizards have my attention with this one, and that's pretty much the first time they have done with any of their Realms products.
One further thought: it seems to me that the 5E official adventures so far have been pretty focused on the Sword Coast region, so putting out the book after Rage of Demons might indicate that Wizards plan for the next round of adventures to take place elsewhere in the Realms (or even a different campaign setting). After the starter set adventure plus three big campaigns in the area, it'd make sense for Wizards to move on to a different adventure locale to keep things varied, plus this way they can say to people worried about canon "We've told the stories we intended to tell in the Sword Coast, now the setting guide is out there you can tell your own stories set there and not worry about them conflicting too much with future 'canon'."
Excellent product announcement.
Green Ronin have proven they can do video game tie ins (dragon age), they can work well as sub contractors (WHFRP), they do good D&D (freeport trilogy et al) and they love the game, which really helps. [Yes I know someone will nitpick about everyone of those statements, but in truth, they're proven pair of hands, nitpick if you want.]
Focusing on a regional area is perfect for any rpg setting, it allows development and focus whilst enough range for most campaigns and avoids the huge 'atlas' effect of a whole world in a book.
It mixes a bit of setting, a bit of rules, a bit of plots, enough for all.
The Sword Coast has very recognition amongst non tabletop gamers who only play D&D as a computer game. The book will sell to CRPG players as well as tabletop. Some will come across to the table, but however it plays, it'll generate a good bedrock of sales.
It keeps the external D&D talent in the fold and within the brand, whilst having no extra people on the payroll for HASBRO to sack.
Good play.
Quote from: tzunder;843791The Sword Coast has very recognition amongst non tabletop gamers who only play D&D as a computer game. The book will sell to CRPG players as well as tabletop. Some will come across to the table, but however it plays, it'll generate a good bedrock of sales.
That's a good point - Sword Coast Legends is going to have a Neverwinter Nights style create-your-own adventure facility, and I can see people getting into that side of it wanting to buy this supplement just for the local lore and adventure ideas.
'Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide'? That's a very focused kind of setting supplement, which I personally like. Have a smaller region well detailed and leave the rest vague for GMs and players to use as they see fit. This also allows for specialized books to be published on individual regions for the hard core fans.
Not sure why anyone gives a shit who produces the book/box/pamphlet/whatever. Isn't it the quality of the final product that matters?
Also not sure why anyone wants a retread of the Forgotten Realms. Sucked first time around.
I have to wonder if this is a sign that the setting support is going to be very limited and this one was only done to support the computer game side of things, since they've been doing more for the FR in the computer games being developed. If that's the case, they might have gone to Green Ronin since they did the Dragon Age RPG rules.
I suspect we probably won't see a lot of detailed campaign support--I doubt Eberron, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, or others will get this treatment.
Possibly - but then why spend the in-house dev team's very limited time tinkering with Eberron conversions or psionics stuff if there's no product down the line that would use them?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;843768I've been led to believe that the WotC staff for D&D is tiny, but damn, that's...not the move I would have made.
I thought 5th made money on it's release, so why not, idk, do this sort of thing themselves?
According to Mearls and at least one WOTC staff back in the 4e era. They have a small staff and Hasbro has learned to keep them on a tight budget leash too.
As for why not have the staff on this? Who knows? Hasbro have been outsourcing the D&D stuff like crazy. WizKids, the various module makers, the vasious accessory makers.
At a guess. They are outsourcing the high risk items to someone else to handle and take the blame if it bombs. The umpteeth re-hash of the damn Forgotten Realms could be met with resistance. Thus a safer bet to let someone else handle it.
Quote from: Matt;843813Not sure why anyone gives a shit who produces the book/box/pamphlet/whatever. Isn't it the quality of the final product that matters?
Because some people like having nice things? And do you think people would have a different reaction if say - Mongoose was the company doing it? People like to know the products they care about are in good hands.
Quote from: Matt;843813Also not sure why anyone wants a retread of the Forgotten Realms. Sucked first time around.
Oh I see, you don't give a shit. Then why do you even care about this topic?
Quote from: Matt;843813Also not sure why anyone wants a retread of the Forgotten Realms. Sucked first time around.
WoTC knows they need to keep the D&D product train rolling and settings books sell well, but I'm sure they also know it's important to pace the release schedule to avoid a bubble-type effect. For better or for worse they've clearly chosen Forgotten Realms as the lead setting for 5th ed products, so they must think someone gives a shit. I don't know if they're still as gung-ho about market research as they were in the pre-Hasbro era but it's possible they have a good reason to believe this. Also, rehashing existing settings is a lot cheaper and less risky than introducing new ones.
Quote from: tenbones;843831Because some people like having nice things? And do you think people would have a different reaction if say - Mongoose was the company doing it? People like to know the products they care about are in good hands.
I could understand a fuss if the project were given to Mongoose, considering their recent troubles and how even at their prime they were always a hit and miss publisher. There's no good basis for being sceptical about Green Ronin, though, they're ace at this sort of thing.
Quote from: Juisarian;843838WoTC knows they need to keep the D&D product train rolling and settings books sell well, but I'm sure they also know it's important to pace the release schedule to avoid a bubble-type effect. For better or for worse they've clearly chosen Forgotten Realms as the lead setting for 5th ed products, so they must think someone gives a shit. I don't know if they're still as gung-ho about market research as they were in the pre-Hasbro era but it's possible they have a good reason to believe this. Also, rehashing existing settings is a lot cheaper and less risky than introducing new ones.
It's worth nothing that (at the moment, at least) the Adventurer's League stuff is set in the Forgotten Realms, so right there you've got a regular, broad, ongoing source of feedback. If the Adventurer's League guys were griping about Forgotten Realms en mass then I doubt this product would have seen the light of day.
Quote from: Warthur;843839I could understand a fuss if the project were given to Mongoose, considering their recent troubles and how even at their prime they were always a hit and miss publisher. There's no good basis for being sceptical about Green Ronin, though, they're ace at this sort of thing.
Precisely. Green Ronin is rock solid.
Now if they can give a license to someone for more Greyhawk product...
Quote from: tenbones;843831Because some people like having nice things? And do you think people would have a different reaction if say - Mongoose was the company doing it? People like to know the products they care about are in good hands.
Yes, I agree. I'd certainly have second thoughts about buying it if Mongoose was making it.
*shudder*
If there is a decent map of an updated WATERDEEP - then I'll be happy with it.
- Ed C.
I'm looking forward to it, and I don't like the Realms.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;843931I'm looking forward to it, and I don't like the Realms.
yeah, that's my issue as well, I want the book but I
loath the forgotten realms setting.
Quote from: RPGPundit;843762Only, Wizards has licensed it out to Green Ronin (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/scag).
Where does it say that "WotC isn't publishing"?
It has a product page (http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/sc-adventurers-guide) on the WotC D&D site that totally looks like a regular WotC product.
Seems to me like a similar deal WotC did with Kobold and Sasquatch.
Some clarification over at ENWorld (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2768-Who-Makes-WotC-s-Adventures#.VbIyQH2bHMI):
Quote from: ENWorldWotC Jeremy Crawford observes that "It's bizarre to see a few posters on ENWorld mistake our [D&D 5E] collaborations as outsourcing. Each book has been a team effort." The input from WotC isn't just greenlighting the book at various stages; as Jeremy tells us "Our reviews are deep. We create the story & the concept art. We write portions of the books. We design mechanics. Etc.!" As he also points out, the credits page of each book tells us who contributed to each.
So there we have it. These books aren't outsourced to third parties in any traditional sense of that word; the books are written as a collaborative effort with writing and more done by both companies.
Looks like the smaller companies are filling the same niche that reliable freelancers did in the 80s and 90s. Makes sense--with more distribution channels and broader licensing agreements, you can start up your own company and prove your design skills that way, rather than through Dragon, Dungeon or APAs.
Quote from: remial;843941yeah, that's my issue as well, I want the book but I loath the forgotten realms setting.
My biggest issue is the two major iconic characters, and that there was this loose metaplot that sometimes leaked from the novels into the setting. But for me, I can stomach it if it's done well, and if nothing else, Green Ronin does do good work.
Onto the main topic at hand, the Sword Coast is a rather large area, it covers between Waterdeep and Neverwinter to the north, and I forget where to the south, sadly.
Quote from: One Horse Town;843786Well, it's in good hands, although i'm not too thrilled on the fine focus on one area of a massive setting. Whatever, i've still got all my other FR stuff from other editions. I'm not interested in 'canon' so it's no biggy.
Quote from: Battle Mad Ronin;843796'Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide'? That's a very focused kind of setting supplement, which I personally like. Have a smaller region well detailed and leave the rest vague for GMs and players to use as they see fit. This also allows for specialized books to be published on individual regions for the hard core fans.
Agree with BMR here, particularly with a setting as big as the Realms;
if and only if they take advantage of the diminished scope to deliver more game-table-ready material (NPCs, adventure hooks, encounters, unique items, maybe even keyed maps).
If they're going to do a flyover of the region and pad the rest with new, power-creeped character classes, I'll pass; I already have the Gray Box for the bird's eye view, and more character options than we're likely to ever use. But like others said, GR has a solid record. I'm looking forward to it.
I'm hoping this will be something along the lines of the excellent 4E Neverwinter Nights Campaign Setting.
For people hoping to see official D&D material published for other settings, I wouldn't hold your breath. It's clear by now that to the Wotc, D&D is simply an avenue for selling Forgotten Realms branded products. As for as they're concerned, D&D is the Forgotten Realms. The video games and the books, both inseparable from the Realms, are the core products lines. The tabletop D&D game simply serves as another way to fuel interest in those lines.
And with another product outsourced, it's also clear that the tabletop RPG department is basically a skeleton crew of project and license managers at this point. WotC no longer creates tabletop D&D content anymore, it simply outsources it to other mid-sized RPG companies. That's a pretty sad state of affairs.
Quote from: Haffrung;844177I'm hoping this will be something along the lines of the excellent 4E Neverwinter Nights Campaign Setting.
For people hoping to see official D&D material published for other settings, I wouldn't hold your breath. It's clear by now that to the Wotc, D&D is simply an avenue for selling Forgotten Realms branded products. As for as they're concerned, D&D is the Forgotten Realms. The video games and the books, both inseparable from the Realms, are the core products lines. The tabletop D&D game simply serves as another way to fuel interest in those lines.
And with another product outsourced, it's also clear that the tabletop RPG department is basically a skeleton crew of project and license managers at this point. WotC no longer creates tabletop D&D content anymore, it simply outsources it to other mid-sized RPG companies. That's a pretty sad state of affairs.
To be completely fair though, and as much as I hate the setting in general, it has been the best selling setting for years.
And really, Magic is their bread and butter.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;844185To be completely fair though, and as much as I hate the setting in general, it has been the best selling setting for years.
True. But there's a difference between supporting the most popular setting, and making setting not only the default for the game, but making non-D&D stories that take place in the setting pre-eminent over D&D itself. Everything D&D is now tied into the FR meta-story. As recently as 4E, we had support for several settings, including the generic WotC-created setting of Nerath. Something pretty fundamental has changed, and it gives us insight into where WotC sees the tabletop D&D RPG as a product line.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;844185And really, Magic is their bread and butter.
Well yes. But even in the Forgotten Realms/D&D stream (and I think they are now essentially the same thing in the eyes of Hasbro), the tabletop RPG is almost an afterthought, about on a par with the D&D boardgames, and far below the Forgotten Realms video games and novels.
Quote from: tenbones;843764edit: They *BETTER* do a book for each subsection of the Faerun as an ongoing thing.
I agree with this part completely. I have a couple of AD&D books that do this, from like 1989, and I really think they should go back to this, even if it's an update.
That and I think they are doing better with the nature of the art by having fully clothed people. Though if they do it in black and white in order to lower prices I wouldn't object a bit.
Unfortunately I haven't really read anything by Green Ronin and can't comment on whether or not they're a good publisher.
Quote from: Haffrung;844245Well yes. But even in the Forgotten Realms/D&D stream (and I think they are now essentially the same thing in the eyes of Hasbro), the tabletop RPG is almost an afterthought, about on a par with the D&D boardgames, and far below the Forgotten Realms video games and novels.
That's simply a matter of money. RPGs make so little compared to those other products.
my problem with FR is that there really doesn't seem to be anything for the PCs to do.
Why bother trying to save the world? Greenwood's pet NPC will save the day when he hears about the problem.
Try to carve out a section of the land to become the ruler? Sorry, every square inch of the planet, both above ground and under it have been mapped out and belong to someone else (along with the moons). and Gods help you if you try to take over someone else's throne, because they are either friends of the pet NPC mentioned above, or someone just as bad ass.
Same problem I have with Battletech, all the big battles have been written up in novels that are all canon, and if you try to change anything then the purists will rant and rave at you about how you are doing it wrong.
Quote from: Jame Rowe;844373Unfortunately I haven't really read anything by Green Ronin and can't comment on whether or not they're a good publisher.
This doesn't depend on Green Ronin's quality as a publisher as those books will be published by WotC, done in WotC's 5e style and layout (which is -IMHO- heaps and bounds above GR's art direction).
Green Ronin will write and develop the products.
The strange thing about this semi-outsourcing of writing (e.g. Kobold's Tyranny of Dragons, Sasquatch's Elemental Evil) is that on the WotC homepage the product authors are listed as "by Wizards RPG team" (http://dnd.wizards.com/products/catalog).
Quote from: Christopher Brady;844389That's simply a matter of money. RPGs make so little compared to those other products.
Of course. The question is whether D&D benefits from being licensed by a company that regards it as an afterthought, and markets the game as a kind of second-rate supplement to its more lucrative product lines.
Quote from: Matt;843813Not sure why anyone gives a shit who produces the book/box/pamphlet/whatever. Isn't it the quality of the final product that matters?
Also not sure why anyone wants a retread of the Forgotten Realms. Sucked first four times around.
Fixed it for you.
BTW, if Drizzt gets hit by a train, I'll be happy.
QuoteWith new character backgrounds and class options, players will love the storytelling possibilities of playing a noble of Waterdeep, an elf bladesinger, or one of the other new options, while Dungeon Masters will relish a book full of mysterious locations and story hooks to keep players adventuring on the Sword Coast for years to come.
I suppose this will be some comfort for those bemoaning the lack of post-PHB player content for 5e. I get that these folks are mostly talking about more stuff with which they can make characters that interest them, but every bit of GM content is ultimately for the players, too.
For those that want to be updated on the "common knowledge" current state of the realms, this ought to be nice. I'm not sure how mysterious locations can be if they are published in player facing books, though. Is it the case that DM material for FR will come exclusively through published adventures (like the Dessarin Valley in PotA and the UnderdarkShadowBad in Rage of Demons), or will there also be a DM's Guide to the Sword Coast?
Quote from: JasperAK;844488BTW, if Drizzt gets hit by a train, I'll be happy.
As much as I would love him and Elminister to be set on fire and tossed down the abyss, it's not happening, simply because Salvatore and Greenwood are back at the helm.
GR is slowed down on their Dragon Age and Game of Thrones licenses due to clearance and review by Martin and Bioware, so if they have time to take this on, I think you could do far worse for the Sword Coast than the Freeport people.
I hope GR plans to keep the generic versions of AGE and Chronicles going though.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;844006Where does it say that "WotC isn't publishing"?
Some clarification over at ENWorld (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2768-Who-Makes-WotC-s-Adventures#.VbIyQH2bHMI):
This sounds to me like corporate spin-doctoring. The D&D division in WoTC is tiny, and I think this is the only way they can get these books out and spend their own time focusing on the adventures, which they've decided is what will make more money for them now.
Quote from: RPGPundit;844639This sounds to me like corporate spin-doctoring. The D&D division in WoTC is tiny, and I think this is the only way they can get these books out and spend their own time focusing on the adventures, which they've decided is what will make more money for them now.
That's not "spin-doctoring", that's just a description of how publishing works in today's publishing industry (or probably even the publishing industry, ever).
The way TSR worked, with an army of in-house writers, layouters, artists, etc., is not the usual way. And even TSR didn't do it that way all their time, they've cut their staff and relied more and more on freelancers.
Today, in the biggest publishing houses, significant parts of the process are outsourced to freelancers, editors, typesetters/layouters (often in other countries), cover design (every art agency can follow a CI bible), while the writers are hardly ever employed in-house.
Publishers look for content to publish, and sometimes they discover the writing talent themselves, sometimes there's an agent middle-man, and sometimes they know that they want a book about topic X and start looking for freelancers who are capable of writing it according to the product specs. Sometimes the publisher only wants the raw text, giving the rest of the work to either in-house editors or other freelancers, and sometimes a publisher commissions an almost print-ready product.
But it is still the publisher who is publishing, bearing the business risk, and who controls what is published.
It's the same kind of deal that existed for 13 years between Schmidt Spiele and the people behind FanPro. Schmidt Spiele knew next to nothing about RPGs and commissioned the German D&D translators to write a game for them, and the FanPro team worked with an army of freelancers for the various tasks necessary to build and retain the whole Das Schwarze Auge RPG line.
But it was Schmidt who ordered specific types of product ("our customer reps told us that the big department chains can handle 1 new boxed set and 4 modules per half-year", "solo adventures are doing well, so half of the modules must be solo", "from a new age book deal we have an overstock of wooden rune tiles - use them in the next boxed set").
A variant would be the deal between Uhrwerk (new publisher of Space 1889) and Ulisses (current publisher of Das Schwarze Auge):
Uhrwerk has a sublicense for another continent on the DSA world, and they develop, write or commission (to their own freelancers), print and distribute the products on their own, following an approval round with Ulisses (who check the content for inconsistencies with DSA canon).
In this case Uhrwerk is the publisher.
The Uhrwerk team is tiny as well (3 people), and they manage Space 1889, Hollow Earth, Splittermond, Engel, Dungeonslayers (and 2 spin-offs), DSA Myranor, Deadlands (WW + HoE), Contact, The One Ring, 13th Age, L5R, and Malmsturm (a standalone FATE game), again with the help of lots of freelancers.
Quote from: CRKrueger;844625I hope GR plans to keep the generic versions of AGE and Chronicles going though.
Threadjack. Are those any good?
Yes, they are. I think Fantasy AGE is a really cool little game. Mind you, that is read only so far. But i like it. If you know how Dragon Age works, Fantasy AGE is a modified, more generic version of it.
3d6 + modifier + focus (if you have an appropriate one) vs TN is the base mechanic
As someone who likes bell-curve a lot, i can see Fantasy AGE as my DnD-ish game to go to now (although i think i will try out 5th Ed. DnD soon-ish).
Chronicles has no generic version as of now, right?! At least i have never read anything about it. ASoIaF is the only game that runs on it so far. And i like it as well...it has a roll and keep mechanic with d6s ... and i was always fan of R&K.
Anyway...back to topic...
I don't get all the hostility toward FR. Sure, it's not a very inspired setting...but then, it is also a quite old setting... . It's a bog standard fantasy setting but it never claimed to be anything else. The pro is that you can do almost everything with it and if you are bothered with the OP NPCs...well just ignore them...it's really not that hard. You as the GM are responsible for the empowerment of your players...so don't go blame some NPC entry in a book.
I for one am looking forward to this product (although i am a big fan of big world-setting books in general and prefer them to such a regional treatment...but i take what i get).
I know that a lot of people are disappointed they aren't getting setting books for Greyhawk or Planescape or Eberron or Dark Sun or Ravenloft or Spelljammer or Birthright or whatever, but the thing is that all of those settings are already available on pdf and conversions aren't really that hard, are they? Especially with the freebies in the Unearthed Arcana articles.
From my completely selfish point of view, I'm pretty happy that I don't feel I need any new "official" products to complete or enjoy the game.
And to the extent that I'm interested in "new" alternate settings, I'd probably be more interested in stuff from smaller publishers that wasn't very "mainline" anyway.
Also, that cover art is some pretty weak tea.
Quote from: remial;844445my problem with FR is that there really doesn't seem to be anything for the PCs to do.
Why bother trying to save the world? Greenwood's pet NPC will save the day when he hears about the problem.
Try to carve out a section of the land to become the ruler? Sorry, every square inch of the planet, both above ground and under it have been mapped out and belong to someone else (along with the moons). and Gods help you if you try to take over someone else's throne, because they are either friends of the pet NPC mentioned above, or someone just as bad ass.
Strange.
I've never had any problem completely
ignoring Elminster, Drizzt, and the rest of the canon NPCs in
my FR games.
I've never had any problems in ensuring that the PCs can become the 'stars', the main 'movers-and-shakers', of the region(s) within which they adventure.
The WotC secret police have yet to arrest me for such transgressions.
Quote from: CRKrueger;844625I think you could do far worse for the Sword Coast than the Freeport people.
I concur. I'm looking forward to this book.
Quote from: Saplatt;844768I know that a lot of people are disappointed they aren't getting setting books for Greyhawk or Planescape or Eberron or Dark Sun or Ravenloft or Spelljammer or Birthright or whatever, but the thing is that all of those settings are already available on pdf and conversions aren't really that hard, are they? Especially with the freebies in the Unearthed Arcana articles.
Are there any UA articles on Planescape?
That's the one TSR setting I'd love to use in a future 5e D&D campaign. (Though I'd be happy using AD&D instead with the original material...)
Quote from: Akrasia;844806Strange.
I've never had any problem completely ignoring Elminster, Drizzt, and the rest of the canon NPCs in my FR games.
I've never had any problems in ensuring that the PCs can become the 'stars', the main 'movers-and-shakers', of the region(s) within which they adventure.
The WotC secret police have yet to arrest me for such transgressions.
[ ] You probably have cool players.
[ ] You are not a shit DM
Failure to check those two boxes + [✔] FR = epic fail in all my experience.
I wonder if FR is a lightning rod for shit DMs and Raging emo Drizzt fanbois.
Quote from: Akrasia;844808Are there any UA articles on Planescape?
That's the one TSR setting I'd love to use in a future 5e D&D campaign. (Though I'd be happy using AD&D instead with the original material...)
Not yet, so far as I know.
Are there any special mechanics in Planescape that couldn't be done with 5E more or less as is?
Quote from: Akrasia;844806Strange.
I've never had any problem completely ignoring Elminster, Drizzt, and the rest of the canon NPCs in my FR games.
Wish my players could. But being people who tend to overthink everything, there's a lot of questions that I have to handwave, and think really hard not to make my player's contribution meaningless.
And it's not actually Drizzt that's the problem. He's just a Mary Sue, annoyingly perfect yet angsty, but he's not really that big of a bug bear. My personal dislike of him is literary based.
Elminster is the bigger problem because he's been an incredibly high level character (The Curse of The Azure Bonds adventure, which is where I first encountered him way back when, puts him at level 26, which is higher than any other playable character in any 2e adventure since) and he's Chaotic Good. And for the record, that book also put Fzoul Chembryl at level 11, and I believe his 'boss' was 13? Don't have the adventure anymore. King Azoun of Cormyr on the other hand was a level 20 paladin, which was a nice touch.
Which means that laws or codes of honour or even promises mean nothing to him, if any of those would cause harm to the world around him. So questions like 'Why hasn't he taken care of the Zhentarim? Thay? The Arcane Brotherhood?' come up and then the entire thing cascades out of hand, and i have to scramble to not say something like "He has better things to do." which frankly belittles anything my players should be. And
I want them to the stars, to not have to deal with some crotchety mage who has banged every single apprentice he's had (and have all been female), not to mention that he has the various Goddesses of Magic also willing to jump into his bed, and he has them on Magical Speed Dial as well.
And given that the Dalelands are/were among the best described (simply because of both Greenwood and Salvatore), a lot of the time, players want to start there.
If you have players who can take out their brains and put them in the jars and play without ending up asking logic based questions, I honestly, and sincerely, envy you. I never had.
Quote from: Akrasia;844806I've never had any problems in ensuring that the PCs can become the 'stars', the main 'movers-and-shakers', of the region(s) within which they adventure.
It doesn't help that Ed Greenwood himself stated that his self-insertion character puts back some of his magical items in old dungeons that his crew cleared out years ago, so that other adventurers, namely PC's have something to find in them.
Hence why I call the FR a theme park, and why I actually had hope for 4e's 100 year jump. Most of the complaints about that in my area were what that did to the setting NPC's, and how it 'ruins' the setting. Personally, I think it didn't jump ahead far enough if Elminster was still alive.
Quote from: Akrasia;844806The WotC secret police have yet to arrest me for such transgressions.
It's not WoTC that's the gamer police, it's other gamers. And unfortunately, a lot of us, especially those who grew up in the 80's and 90's when being a geek was not a clique we joined, but where the other high school kids shoved us into because they didn't want us, peer pressure still works, sadly.
Why do you think people always want new books for their favourite 'edition'? Because it's a 'Keeping up with Joneses' effect, to want to keep ahead of your 'neighbour', which still applies with gamers.
Either way, I want to see where GR goes with this, cuz I do like the Realms as a location, it's only TWO NPCs that drive me nuts, and one I can easily ignore (The Drizzle.)
Quote from: Saplatt;844818Not yet, so far as I know.
Are there any special mechanics in Planescape that couldn't be done with 5E more or less as is?
There are some races and creatures that need stats (I'm pretty sure they're not in the MM).
And some mechanical role for Factions would be cool.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;844864If you have players who can take out their brains and put them in the jars and play without ending up asking logic based questions, I honestly, and sincerely, envy you. I never had.
It's
not a matter of having players who can 'take out their brains'.
If the players are really familiar with the details of the setting, you just need to say: this is a
variant of the FR, a parallel plane, where not everything is as described in the books. Elminster, for instance, is quite different (or does not exist at all).
If you have a problem with playing in
this variant of the FR, then you need not participate in
this campaign.
I wouldn't want to game with any players too immature to handle that.
(And as for 'logic based questions', you do realize that you're playing a game with flying dragons and magic, right?)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;844864It doesn't help that Ed Greenwood himself stated that his self-insertion character puts back some of his magical items in old dungeons that his crew cleared out years ago, so that other adventurers, namely PC's have something to find in them.
Why the hell do you care so much about what Greenwood does in
his campaign? :confused:
Quote from: Christopher Brady;844864It's not WoTC that's the gamer police, it's other gamers.
Find better gamers.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;844039Onto the main topic at hand, the Sword Coast is a rather large area, it covers between Waterdeep and Neverwinter to the north, and I forget where to the south, sadly.
Baldur's Gate, which amongst video gamers is probably the most recognisable place name in the Realms.
Quote from: Akrasia;844808Are there any UA articles on Planescape?
That's the one TSR setting I'd love to use in a future 5e D&D campaign. (Though I'd be happy using AD&D instead with the original material...)
The DMG has a pretty good rundown of the different planes and game mechanical consequences of being on them, and Sigil is mentioned, so they've already given some thought to the subject. I'm currently playing in a 5E Planescape campaign which is going swimmingly.
Quote from: Akrasia;844880(And as for 'logic based questions', you do realize that you're playing a game with flying dragons and magic, right?)
To paraphrase someone else (I think Wolfgang Baur, though I'm not sure), "logic based questions" does not mean "the setting functions the way it does in the real world." Rather, it's shorthand for "the setting has internal logic and self-consistency that it adheres to."
Quote from: Matt;843813Not sure why anyone gives a shit who produces the book/box/pamphlet/whatever. Isn't it the quality of the final product that matters?
Of course. But it's outside the normal expectations - Forgotten Realms is one of the major D&D settings, and we're used to it being from the group that holds the IP. TSR or Wizards. It's going to get noticed. Some people won't give a shit, some will.
I don't much care who makes it so long as the book is interesting. I'm more of a Greyhawk fan, but I like the depth of material available for Forgotten Realms.
Quote from: Warthur;844887Baldur's Gate, which amongst video gamers is probably the most recognisable place name in the Realms.
Really? I thought it was further inland. And just checked the Princes of Apocalypse map, and you're right. I stand corrected. Cool. So this book might cover between Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter. AWESOME. I loved those places. I never actually got to play in Waterdeep, mind you, past the Undermountain boxed set.
Quote from: Alzrius;844898To paraphrase someone else (I think Wolfgang Baur, though I'm not sure), "logic based questions" does not mean "the setting functions the way it does in the real world." Rather, it's shorthand for "the setting has internal logic and self-consistency that it adheres to."
Which is what I meant. Every good setting has a series of logical consistencies that are usually followed, in the Realms, unfortunately, Elminster breaks them over his knee and a spanks them for good measure.
Like I said, Akrasia, if your players can avoid those pitfalls, more power to you. But the players I got in the past 30 years that have wanted to play in Realms, all of them wanted to interact with Elminster, and when they find out exactly how powerful he truly is, those annoying questions come up, and honestly, it's sincerely tiring trying to find an excuse to either depower him, or remove him, without metaphorically destroying Shadowvale, as frankly, he's a Sage of 'Great Power'.
The closest I ever got was turning him into another version of Tellah of the old Japanese RPG Final Fantasy 2 (4 in Japan) for the Nintendo Entertainment System. Who was a crotchety old mage, on his last years with encroaching senility, but once had great power, and still remembers those days.
Which is completely unlike Elminster to those who love the realm or even read a little bit about him.
An interesting datapoint: Wizards just released the results summary (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/july-survey) of their June survey on settings (along with opening up their new survey on psionics). Here's the quote relevant to this conversation:
QuoteThe popularity of settings in the survey fell into three distinct clusters. Not surprisingly, our most popular settings from prior editions landed at the top of the rankings, with Eberron, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape, and the Forgotten Realms all proving equally popular. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Spelljammer all shared a similar level of second-tier popularity, followed by a fairly steep drop-off to the rest of the settings. My sense is that Spelljammer has often lagged behind the broad popularity of other settings, falling into love-it-or-hate-it status depending on personal tastes. Greyhawk and Dragonlance hew fairly close to the assumptions we used in creating the fifth edition rulebooks, making them much easier to run with material from past editions. Of the top five settings, four require significant new material to function and the fifth is by far our most popular world.
As I see it, this tells us a bunch of important things:
- Regardless of what refined, cultured fantasy-snobs like us who've been around the block a few times feel about it, the Forgotten Realms remains one of D&D's most popular settings.
- Of the top-tier settings, Forgotten Realms is the one which cleaves the closest to the core assumptuons of D&D - all the others are divergent enough to need additional systems support for their unique features.
- When you take the above two factors together, it rather exonerates the decision to focus the early 5E product line on the Realms - quite simply, it's the most popular of those settings which can be run with the core assumptions of D&D straight out of the box. Regardless of what hardened RPG forum readers have to say about it, that's the commercial reality Wizards have to deal with and it would be ludicrous and self-destructive of them to pretend otherwise.
- Equally, whilst there is obviously demand for Eberron, Ravenloft, Dark Sun and Planescape, the 5E team evidently want to support those with robust mechanics, so we'll have to wait a little further down the line. (That said, the Unearthed Arcana articles on Eberron material and on psionics suggest that they are working to provide that system support.)
- Spelljammer being such a love-it-or-hate-it setting, if it gets support at all it probably won't be on the level we've seen for the Realms so far. Spelljammer isn't likely to become the focus of its own videogame and boardgame and novel tie-ins; it's more likely that it'll end up being a niche tabletop-only product licensed out to an outside development team on an even longer leash than those we've seen Kobold Press or Green Ronin working under with regards to their Realms stuff. Unless the main D&D team at Wizards grows in future years, it doesn't make sense to tie up too much of their time developing second-tier settings when there's five top-tier settings they can be making material for instead.
- Similarly, unless someone can arrange a suitable licensing arrangement it's unlikely we'll see much 5E stuff for Greyhawk or Dragonlance - the comments there seem to be a fairly unsubtle hint that if you want to play in those settings, you're best off just updating your old materials to 5E, due to them being so close to "Core D&D" in their assumptions. It really doesn't make commercial sense for Wizards to spend their time supporting multiple brands of vanilla D&D when one brand is clearly more popular than the others.
- Despite the affection felt by a few for settings like Mystara, it's deeply unlikely that Wizards will be giving it or any of the other sub-second tier settings much support in the foreseeable future, and depending on just how low the level of popularity is for the settings in question it might not even be worth Wizards' time licensing them out - licences take time to manage that they might not want to spend on those settings. Don't expect any action unless Hasbro authorise Wizards to sell off the unwanted IP entirely.
Ravenloft? really...
Over Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim?
Quote from: tenbones;844988Ravenloft? really...
Over Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim?
They counted AQ as part of the Realms for this survey. :) But there were times in D&D history that Ravenloft was reportedly the #2 setting in terms of popularity. It probably benefits from association with the classic adventure, too.
But for much of my quarter-century in gaming, Ravenloft has been the main thing keeping me in D&D's orbit.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;844992They counted AQ as part of the Realms for this survey. :) But there were times in D&D history that Ravenloft was reportedly the #2 setting in terms of popularity. It probably benefits from association with the classic adventure, too.
My personal experience down here in Rio suggests that, back in our AD&D 2e days, Ravenloft was second only to Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance in popularity.
And I didn't even know about the 1e adventure until the OSR rolled along and showed me What Came Before.
Quote from: The Butcher;844994My personal experience down here in Rio suggests that, back in our AD&D 2e days, Ravenloft was second only to Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance in popularity.
Ravenloft was definitely Big in Brazil.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;844992They counted AQ as part of the Realms for this survey. :)
They meant to include Kara-Tur in the Realms too but goofed. Gives me hope for AQ/KT themed regional sourcebooks to follow the Sword Coast one.
Zero chance of my beloved Birthright then. :(
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;844009Looks like the smaller companies are filling the same niche that reliable freelancers did in the 80s and 90s. Makes sense--with more distribution channels and broader licensing agreements, you can start up your own company and prove your design skills that way, rather than through Dragon, Dungeon or APAs.
In spite of the ENworld post, this smells of the "not our core business so outsource it" craze that started in the 90's. WOTC appears to be somewhere on that spectrum.
A few things can suffer in that model, in either the best case "partner" mode or the "slap a WOTC sticker on it" mode. Consistency & Improvement would be what I'd primarily worry about, if I were doing their Supplier Management. Enforcing enough of a "voice" so each product doesn't seem completely different while still retaining the advantages that different voices bring.
The ability to learn from product to product would be the second area. Farming it out fresh each time could mean always making the same mistakes.
Both of these could be solved by strong guidelines and a very good editor. Neither of which WOTC appears to have ... Tiamat & POC I'm looking at you.
Quote from: Warthur;845031They meant to include Kara-Tur in the Realms too but goofed. Gives me hope for AQ/KT themed regional sourcebooks to follow the Sword Coast one.
Yeah that would be awesome.
Ravenloft... I played/DM'ed the shit out of the original two modules... then the boxset. I've been left feeling that despite the many murderous and good experiences of with the products, that D&D never did "vampires" in a way that I liked.
And my group(s) of players got to the point if I said "Running a Ravenloft Campaign" - they would give me the "dubious look".
Quote from: One Horse Town;845041Zero chance of my beloved Birthright then. :(
Indeed. But I'd be surprised if the very proactive Birthright fan community (http://www.birthright.net/) wasn't working on a 5e conversion (http://www.birthright.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?49-BRCS-5th-Edition), with a draft version (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=5e_conversion_draft) already.
To be honest, I think it's actually fairly straightforward; I'd use the regency system, holdings, bloodline potency, mass combat, realm magic and battle magic as-is, while substituting the bloodline powers for the appropriate 5e spells.
Quote from: Akrasia;844806Strange.
I've never had any problem completely ignoring Elminster, Drizzt, and the rest of the canon NPCs in my FR games.
I've never had any problems in ensuring that the PCs can become the 'stars', the main 'movers-and-shakers', of the region(s) within which they adventure.
The WotC secret police have yet to arrest me for such transgressions.
Some people really dislike playing a setting with a strong metaplot or strong characters baked in.
I don't, but is a deal killer for some people, but they solve it as GMs by using the material in their own setting, for players they have to ask the GM to run an 'open' setting.
But given that almost any setting, even the Young Kingdoms which has it's Ragnarok in the books, can be gamed in whilst ignoring the main story arcs.
It's an individualist thing, the idea we have in the modern world that anyone can be President and change the world.
Quote from: Akrasia;844875There are some races and creatures that need stats (I'm pretty sure they're not in the MM).
And some mechanical role for Factions would be cool.
My friend Paul Mitchener ran it with 13th Age fine.
I knew nothing about the setting but looking at the stuff out there it seems likely that a relaxed ref like you seem could handle it with 5e easily.
Maybe a few backgrounds for 5e from the setting for players?
It felt like Sliders crossed with a taxonomic version of the Multiverse.
http://daedaluswing.wikidot.com/faction-backgrounds
http://community.wizards.com/forum/planescape/threads/4152356
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;844652That's not "spin-doctoring", that's just a description of how publishing works in today's publishing industry (or probably even the publishing industry, ever).
The "spin-doctoring" is them using semantics to try to claim its an in-house project.