TheRPGSite

This is a battle I ran a week ago friday. I had two extra players, people I know and regular 4E players that came in as guests, which put our party roster at eight players, which is a lot for 4E. We are currently running a 12th level campaign set in Avernus, the first layer of the Nine Hells. The party had their airship shot down by the Legions of Avernus, and were currently dodging patrols looking for a place to hide. This was one of those patrols:

Our party consisted of:

Regulars

Genasi Wildblood Warden--Durable tank built to engage and control multiple enemies, and optimized to deal above average damage. Run by the most skilled player at our table.
Genasi Assault Swordmage--More of an assisting Defender, run by our most inexperienced player and still getting a feel for the class..
Human Predator Druid--Spends 90% of her time in beast mode, and tends to be a somewhat passive and reactive player.
Human Pacifist Cleric--Max healer and focused on debuffing control effects that do not deal damage
Halfling Night Stalker Assassin--Run by a skilled player, a true death machine.
Githzerai Pursuing Avenger--Freelancer who tends to charge the back lines or break off one enemy and solo it.

Walk Ons

Drow Storm Sorcerer--Generic Ranged Blaster, played by an above average player unfamiliar with the class, having built the character from scratch earlier that day.
Elf Seeker--Straight up generic Seeker from the preview.

And now, the battle. Excuse me if I generalize a bit. This was somewhat large, and it was over a week ago. On a side note, four of these enemies use my "mook" rules. "Mooks" are a halfway point between minions and standard enemies. They have attack rolls and defenses normal to their level, but half standard HP and average to weak At-Will attacks. I count two of these as a standard enemy, and they are probably the most amazing thing I've houseruled into 4E.

The party had just walked into an L shaped canyon. As they entered, a Brown Dragon and two Hellstinger Scorpions came up out of the sand. Initiative was rolled. The Avenger won initiative, and tried to move around the Dragon to move on one of the scorpions. He got to where he could see around the corner, and saw two Cambions and a Chain Devil hiding around the bend. He rather stupidly put his Oath on one of the Cambions and charged it. Most of the enemies went next. The two Cambions and the Chain Devil surrounded the Avenger, scoring multiple hits. In addition, an Archer popped out from behind a rock on top of the Canyon and took a shot at the Avenger and hit. The Scorpion on that side of the Canyon came in behind the Avenger to make things worse. The Seeker went next, moved out of the canyon onto the rim and shot the Cambion that the Avenger had injured. A second archer popped out from behind the rock and shot the Seeker. The Dragon went next, burrowed into the midst of the party and used its Frightful Presence against all but the Seeker and the Avenger. It rolled well and most of the party was stunned. The Warden dodged this with an item, ran past the Dragon and charged into the enemies surrounding the Avenger, marking two of them. The Cleric was missed by the stun, advanced and healed the Avenger back to full(from about 25% hp, I would add). The second Scorpion moved adjacent to the Cleric and grabbed her. Everyone else was stunned.

In the next two rounds, there were several aspects to the fight. The Warden managed to take control of the group near the Avenger, locking down three of them while the Avenger killed the Cambion he had Oathed, then went after the archer up on the rim with the Warden keeping on the Chain Devil and the Scorpion, with some occasional support fire from the Seeker. The other Cambion followed the Avenger. The Swordmage went on to engage the Dragon by itself(with occasional help from the Assassin), while everyone else focused on the Scorpion. The Dragon laid down its multiattacks and disruptive Breath Weapon(a sandstorm that blocked vision for everyone but the Dragon)The Cleric was in very bad shape, as she had no real ability to escape the grab and was going to be put down in short order if nothing was done. In round three, the Cambion who chased the Avenger decided the Cleric was a more interesting victim and swooped in. The Cleric was bailed out by the Seeker and Druid working in tandem. The Seeker used its class feature to push the Scorpion one square(it was right next to the rim), putting it in position where the Druid could hit it with Savage Rend and slide it an additional square to where it was no longer grabbing the Cleric, after which the Cleric managed to disengage. The Assassin and Sorcerer focused on blowing the Scorpion to bits, while the Seeker stood apart on the rim helping where ever the need or opportunity presented itself.

In the next phase, the main party had its hands full with the Dragon, but managed to finish off the Scorpion, who failed to get a hold of anybody. The Swordmage did its best to control the Dragon, but against a Solo there's only so much you can do, and the Breath Weapon was recharged multiple times. The Avenger managed to smash one of the Archers, and began work on the Second. The Warden was being worn down by the Chain Devil and Scorpion, taking heavy punishment(and was in serious danger of being taken out) but locking them down. The Warden was even dropped to negative HP at one point, but he used his Utility power to heal himself back into things. The Warden started to wear down at the same time the other Scorpion was defeated, and the Druid and Sorcerer peeled off from the Dragon and moved to assist. The Pacifist Cleric threw all of her control prayers at the Dragon, the Swordmage kept it marked, the Assassin hit it whenever it had amassed four shrouds(to deal max damage), and the Seeker took long range shots at the other side where the Warden was. After trading some hits, the second Scorpion fell to the combined attacks of the Warden, Sorcerer and Druid, and the Cambion fell to a few odd hits but mostly the Dragon breathing on it multiple times.

At this point it was mostly a mop up affair. The Avenger got unlucky and took one round extra to mop up the second Archer. The Druid stayed with the Warden to finish off the Chain Devil, while the Sorcerer disengaged and started on the Dragon. The Assassin, who had been playing conservatively to this point started throwing everything he had at the Dragon, while the Swordmage, Cleric, and Seeker focused on keeping it pinned down. The Avenger, Druid, and Warden finished off their foes, and the Dragon didn't last long to an 8-man beatdown.


Overall, this battle took about 50-60 minutes to resolve, which is pretty good for an 8 vs 8 battle including a Solo. I'm a fast DM, and my players know their business, which helps a lot. While no one was killed, there were three points where characters were seriously threatened, and subsequently bailed out:

1. The Avenger being dogpiled, bailed out by a big heal and the Warden(who used an item power to move and an action point just to get in position) forcing the enemies to attack him.
2. The Cleric, grabbed without hope of escape by the Scorpion, who would have only lasted two rounds before being KOed if not for the rescue by the Seeker and Druid.
3. The Warden who was stretched to the breaking point managing one side of the battle solo, who managed to simply outlast the enemies(was dropped to single digit hp twice) until help arrived.

This is where the danger comes from in 4E. You don't necessarily die, and your life isn't decided by a roll of the dice. You are put in a situation where you will die, and given tactical opportunities to get out of it. Without countermeasures, the Avenger, Cleric and Warden would have fallen. I find while there is some truth to the difficulty of killing a single character(much easier to TPK than to kill one PC), it is a common occurence to threaten death/defeat, or be locked down under ironclad control/hassle. 4E puts you in a hole, and then gives you the opportunity to get(or have someone else get) you out of it.

Overall, member by member:

Warden--Managed to hold the line by himself on one side of the fight and survive(alone, as the only healing he got was from his own effects), freeing everyone else to focus on eliminating threats one by one
Swordmage--Did an admirable job tanking the Dragon, to which he was better suited thanks to the Dragon's mobility.
Druid--Was right up in melee assisting where most needed, first with the first Scorpion attacking the Cleric, and then taking heat off of the worn down Warden.
Cleric--Several big and small heals, and severely compromised the Dragon's ability to hurt us.
Assassin--Dealt the most damage in the fight including more than half of what was dealt to the Dragon, almost never getting hit, and several timely pieces of control.
Avenger--After his initial stupidity, managed to eliminate the Archers on the cliff with only token help from the Seeker.
Sorcerer--Was still learning his character, but contributed throughout
Seeker--Used his long range and position to rain down hurt and control effects over the entire fight.

As a small addendum, it bears saying that the Dragon was not allowed to escape. I wanted to have the Dragon to fly off once the fight was obviously lost, but they managed to keep it immobilized or whatever turn after turn until it died.

I appreciate the example.  For me, it just kinda hammered home that I wouldn't have much fun with 4e.  I think the only battle I have had in Savage Worlds that ran anywhere near the hour mark was 5 on...28, I believe it was (supers game).  I think I would wince at an 8 on 8 that took an hour for us now (our sessions tend to top out at 5 hours, counting derailments from silly jokes and such).

Still, cool read.

So what's the point of this thread?  I mean, it's not like there's no ulterior motive behind you posting this.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339049We are currently running a 12th level campaign set in Avernus, the first layer of the Nine Hells. The party had their airship shot down by the Legions of Avernus, and were currently dodging patrols looking for a place to hide.

Tell us more about the campaign!

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339049On a side note, four of these enemies use my "mook" rules. "Mooks" are a halfway point between minions and standard enemies. They have attack rolls and defenses normal to their level, but half standard HP and average to weak At-Will attacks. I count two of these as a standard enemy, and they are probably the most amazing thing I've houseruled into 4E.

Give us an example how you take a monster and "mookify" them.  

My current houserule that I am playing around with is "Paper Tigers" where I chop monster HP in half, but double their damage.   Fights have been much faster and really scary and brutal.  

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339049Overall, this battle took about 50-60 minutes to resolve, which is pretty good for an 8 vs 8 battle including a Solo. I'm a fast DM, and my players know their business, which helps a lot.

I am impressed.  

The more I play 4e (and demo 4e) I realize its learning curve and the importance of system mastery to make 4e work quickly versus OD&D with its miniscule learning curve and where system mastery is attained very quickly.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339049This is where the danger comes from in 4E. You don't necessarily die, and your life isn't decided by a roll of the dice. You are put in a situation where you will die, and given tactical opportunities to get out of it. Without countermeasures, the Avenger, Cleric and Warden would have fallen.

Agreed.   Most PC deaths and TPKs that I have seen were all about lack of teamwork and it sounds like your crew really got its communication down and jumped to the aid of teammates.  

BTW, how many dailies & action points did the PCs expend in that fight?

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339049Our party consisted of:
...
Genasi Wildblood Warden--Durable tank built to engage and control multiple enemies, and optimized to deal above average damage. Run by the most skilled player at our table.
Genasi Assault Swordmage--More of an assisting Defender, run by our most inexperienced player and still getting a feel for the class..
Human Predator Druid--Spends 90% of her time in beast mode, and tends to be a somewhat passive and reactive player.
Human Pacifist Cleric--Max healer and focused on debuffing control effects that do not deal damage
Halfling Night Stalker Assassin--Run by a skilled player, a true death machine.
Githzerai Pursuing Avenger--Freelancer who tends to charge the back lines or break off one enemy and solo it.

And to think some people claim 4E is all about outlandish superheroes and combat with miniatures.  Thanks for showing the haters 4E's depth and dimension, TCO.

If I were to run 4e, one thing I would do as a matter of course is to have 2-hit and sometimes 3-hit minions. There's a whoole ton of space between minion and regular monster who knows why it's there – and a lot of ways to fill it up, apparently.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339049This is a battle I ran a week ago friday. I had two extra players, people I know and regular 4E players that came in as guests, which put our party roster at eight players, which is a lot for 4E. We are currently running a 12th level campaign set in Avernus, the first layer of the Nine Hells. The party had their airship shot down by the Legions of Avernus, and were currently dodging patrols looking for a place to hide. This was one of those patrols:

Overall, member by member:

Warden--Managed to hold the line by himself on one side of the fight and survive(alone, as the only healing he got was from his own effects), freeing everyone else to focus on eliminating threats one by one
Swordmage--Did an admirable job tanking the Dragon, to which he was better suited thanks to the Dragon's mobility.
Druid--Was right up in melee assisting where most needed, first with the first Scorpion attacking the Cleric, and then taking heat off of the worn down Warden.
Cleric--Several big and small heals, and severely compromised the Dragon's ability to hurt us.
Assassin--Dealt the most damage in the fight including more than half of what was dealt to the Dragon, almost never getting hit, and several timely pieces of control.
Avenger--After his initial stupidity, managed to eliminate the Archers on the cliff with only token help from the Seeker.
Sorcerer--Was still learning his character, but contributed throughout
Seeker--Used his long range and position to rain down hurt and control effects over the entire fight.

Excellent description-- sounds like a great combat! I've used brown dragons as some of the recurrent enemies in my MyRealms adventures (the Dragonlords of Abeir have a claim on the mote where the PC's home base is) and the combination of burrowing and blinding is pretty effective in combat.

Quote from: B.T.;339080So what's the point of this thread?  I mean, it's not like there's no ulterior motive behind you posting this.

I'm not sure you realize it, but this entire forum used to be about actual gaming before it became a threadcrapper refugee camp. If you have a problem with this thread, please feel free to report it. Otherwise GTFO.

Quote from: B.T.;339080So what's the point of this thread?  I mean, it's not like there's no ulterior motive behind you posting this.

Gee, thanks. Only took until the 2nd reply.

Quote from: Imp;339088If I were to run 4e, one thing I would do as a matter of course is to have 2-hit and sometimes 3-hit minions. There's a whoole ton of space between minion and regular monster who knows why it's there – and a lot of ways to fill it up, apparently.

A better way to do "3 hit minions" is probably just use monsters that are beneath a certain level (like level 1 adversaries for a level 4 combat). They are effectively "1 or 2 (or 3) hit".

Past performance indicates future results.

Quote from: Spinachcat;339081Tell us more about the campaign!

The party consists of fallen heroes who have been given an impossible task by the gods in order to secure their redemption. They have taken on this task by their own choice. Their task is to deliver a package to Asmodeus himself, and they will have no outside support for their journey. They were dropped off on the surface of hell, and are cursed to be unable to leave(bound similiarly to the Devils that reside there) until their task is finished. Asmodeus is curious about the package(which can only be delivered through the free will of the PCs), has ordered his lords not to directly destroy the PCs, but otherwise make the journey as painful and difficult as possible.

Quote from: Spinachcat;339081Give us an example how you take a monster and "mookify" them.  

Take the Pain Devil(Level 8 Soldier)
Advance the Pain Devil using DMG/Adventure tools to level 13, raising defenses and attack bonus
Cut HP in half
Delete the Pain Devil's recharge power, Wave of Pain
Place two of these creatures in place of a standard enemy
And, there it is. Its fairly simple.

Quote from: Spinachcat;339081My current houserule that I am playing around with is "Paper Tigers" where I chop monster HP in half, but double their damage.   Fights have been much faster and really scary and brutal.

Haven't resorted to that yet, though I hear its a popular change. We're pretty quick when we play, so the standard enemies tend to run fine for us.  

Quote from: Spinachcat;339081I am impressed.  

The more I play 4e (and demo 4e) I realize its learning curve and the importance of system mastery to make 4e work quickly versus OD&D with its miniscule learning curve and where system mastery is attained very quickly.

System mastery in 4E tends not necessarily to make the game easier, but to make it faster. As a DM I've learned what creates "the grind" and how to build encounters so it never happens. I've also taught players the system to avoid grind both in their behavior and in creating characters who can take care of business.

Quote from: Spinachcat;339081Agreed.   Most PC deaths and TPKs that I have seen were all about lack of teamwork and it sounds like your crew really got its communication down and jumped to the aid of teammates.  

BTW, how many dailies & action points did the PCs expend in that fight?

I'd say most(but not all) of the PCs used an action point, and very few Dailies were spent. This was the first fight of the day, and they expected(and got) ambushed again as the day progressed.

Quote from: Hairfoot;339083And to think some people claim 4E is all about outlandish superheroes and combat with miniatures.  Thanks for showing the haters 4E's depth and dimension, TCO.

My post was about 4E combat. If I wanted to talk about the other half of things, I would have said other things.

Quote from: B.T.;339107Past performance indicates future results.

And your prejudgement does far more to achieve those results than any action I take.

Quote from: Imp;339088If I were to run 4e, one thing I would do as a matter of course is to have 2-hit and sometimes 3-hit minions. There's a whoole ton of space between minion and regular monster who knows why it's there – and a lot of ways to fill it up, apparently.

I've experimented with these as well. I created "Elite" Minions, that were bloodied when damaged, and then killed when damaged again. I gave modestly more powerful and interesting attacks, and a damage threshold, where if you dealt a specific amount of damage to them(typically a Striker rolling well or a Daily/big Encounter power) you could kill them in one hit.

I've also instituted a rule that minions get a saving throw against automatic damage, and survive if they save. Auto-damage works too well on minions and trivializes them.

Half HP mooks are my favorite solution thus far though. They are dangerous, more interesting, and they still die really fast.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339113And your prejudgement does far more to achieve those results than any action I take.

No, not really.  If this thread were just about your group having fun, then it would be fine.  I can only imagine that you do, indeed, have some sort of irritating purpose for it, given that you specified how it is an "example of 4e combat" rather than "a combat from my last game."  I'm going to wager that it has to do with how 4e's risk of defeat is superior to 3e's because 3e just killed characters whereas 4e gives those characters the opportunity to succeed (or some other nonsense along those lines).

Call me cynical.

Quote from: B.T.;339118No, not really.  If this thread were just about your group having fun, then it would be fine.  I can only imagine that you do, indeed, have some sort of irritating purpose for it, given that you specified how it is an "example of 4e combat" rather than "a combat from my last game."  I'm going to wager that it has to do with how 4e's risk of defeat is superior to 3e's because 3e just killed characters whereas 4e gives those characters the opportunity to succeed (or some other nonsense along those lines).

Call me cynical.

Naa i'd call you an asshole

Quote from: Hairfoot;339083And to think some people claim 4E is all about outlandish superheroes and combat with miniatures.  Thanks for showing the haters 4E's depth and dimension, TCO.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339112My post was about 4E combat. If I wanted to talk about the other half of things, I would have said other things.

Ok, so could you give quick descriptions of the characters themselves, their personality, motivation, etc, rather than their combat role?  For instance, my own 3.5 scarred lands character could be described in 2 ways:

As you did, for combat:

(Formerly-Forsaken) Elf Psion (telepath) / Cleric - Striker/Controller, ranged blaster and wall of energy spammer with mind-controlling effects as well, and a small Cleric dip to provide some healing.

Or like this:

(Formerly-Forsaken) Elf Psion (telepath) / Cleric - A former atheist who believed the Slaraciens to be noble, Jedi-like heroes and trained in their psionic powers since childhood, only to have the god of the Forsaken Elves return to the world and personally bring him back to life, causing a crisis of conscience and and a slow awakening to the true nature of the Slaraciens.  

Now, I know you are describing a combat encounter, but most folks would agree that 4e does combat pretty well... it's 4e's "thing".  But how developed are the characters' personalities, backstories, motivations, etc?  Is each one a unique and memorable character with a story all their own, or are they just "generic striker" and "party tank #1"?

Quote from: samurai007;339132Now, I know you are describing a combat encounter, but most folks would agree that 4e does combat pretty well... it's 4e's "thing".  But how developed are the characters' personalities, backstories, motivations, etc?  Is each one a unique and memorable character with a story all their own, or are they just "generic striker" and "party tank #1"?

I would assume all D&D characters have detailed stories. Everyone in my campaigns certainly does, even in the low continuity of the living campaign.

No joke names or disposable characters, either.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;339138I would assume all D&D characters have detailed stories. Everyone in my campaigns certainly does, even in the low continuity of the living campaign.

No joke names or disposable characters, either.

I've seen a fair number that don't (for all editions, not just 4e).  Some players don't bother making an interesting and unique personality and background, they just roll it up, pick some stuff, and go, so I don't assume anything.  But I'm interested in hearing about the characters themselves, not their combat roles, and how well 4e handles and encourages that.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339111As a DM I've learned what creates "the grind" and how to build encounters so it never happens. I've also taught players the system to avoid grind both in their behavior and in creating characters who can take care of business.

Not meaning to threadcrap, but if you can give us details about the DM side to this equation (aka reducing grind) I'd be really grateful. I've been eager to soak up advice on that score for months, and found Stalker0's (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254630-stalker0s-guide-anti-grind.html) thread on Enworld and a related discussion on Amazon.com really helpful (unfortunately, I can't find the latter now). It's not that I think grind in 4E is hopeless, it's just that every little bit helps.

I found the OP disappointing. It was not a detailed example of 4E combat. It was a detailed description about what happened, but very little about the how.

What skills and attributes did the characters call on? Special talents, powers? What actions did the players declare? What rules did these actions invoke? What were the rolls? The modifiers? The game results?

The OP tells me you had a fun time that night. It doesn't do anything to help me understand or evaluate 4E.

I know you asked to be excused for being general, but this—

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339049In the next phase, the main party had its hands full with the Dragon, but managed to finish off the Scorpion, who failed to get a hold of anybody. The Swordmage did its best to control the Dragon, but against a Solo there's only so much you can do, and the Breath Weapon was recharged multiple times. The Avenger managed to smash one of the Archers, and began work on the Second. The Warden was being worn down by the Chain Devil and Scorpion, taking heavy punishment(and was in serious danger of being taken out) but locking them down. The Warden was even dropped to negative HP at one point, but he used his Utility power to heal himself back into things. The Warden started to wear down at the same time the other Scorpion was defeated, and the Druid and Sorcerer peeled off from the Dragon and moved to assist. The Pacifist Cleric threw all of her control prayers at the Dragon, the Swordmage kept it marked, the Assassin hit it whenever it had amassed four shrouds(to deal max damage), and the Seeker took long range shots at the other side where the Warden was. After trading some hits, the second Scorpion fell to the combined attacks of the Warden, Sorcerer and Druid, and the Cambion fell to a few odd hits but mostly the Dragon breathing on it multiple times.

—tells me the results of play but nothing about the mechanics or flow of play.

Quote from: samurai007;339132But how developed are the characters' personalities, backstories, motivations, etc?  Is each one a unique and memorable character with a story all their own, or are they just "generic striker" and "party tank #1"?

NONE of that depends on edition or even which RPG.   All that stuff depends completely on the players and the DM.

Quote from: Spinachcat;339188NONE of that depends on edition or even which RPG.   All that stuff depends completely on the players and the DM.

It doesn't depend entirely on the game, but IMO the game rules can influence it.  For instance, a game like SotC/FATE3 just about requires you to create a character's backstory and personality, at least a bit.  Your 10 Aspects tie into who you are, what matters to you, and what you've done before.  By contrast, at the other end is a game like 4e where pretty much everything non-combat is optional.  All of your major powers and abilities are focused around what you do in combat.  Backgrounds are an optional extra that was added in PHB2, and are at least a small gesture toward encouraging a backstory, but other than them, you can create an entire character without once thinking about who he is, where he's from, or what his motivations are, describing him merely by his combat role.  Now, a player can, if he wants, create that story, but in game it doesn't really matter.  So I was just wondering how many of his players did create a background and personality for their characters beyond "generic ranged striker", which sounds really uninspiring to me.

How is this a 'detailed' example of DnD4.0 combat? The transcripts on my blog, dubious as they are, have more detail than this.

Quote from: Doom;339197How is this a 'detailed' example of DnD4.0 combat? The transcripts on my blog, dubious as they are, have more detail than this.

I just read your blog and it's pretty good! I'll send you something later if you'd like to link exchange.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;339103I'm not sure you realize it, but this entire forum used to be about actual gaming before it became a threadcrapper refugee camp. If you have a problem with this thread, please feel free to report it. Otherwise GTFO.

I actually agree with you for once, AM....but this thread does belong in the Design, Development, and Gameplay subforum. Otherwise, CO....please carry on.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339112My post was about 4E combat. If I wanted to talk about the other half of things, I would have said other things.

Fair enough, in the context.  But as B.T. reminds us, you've spent the month since you signed up evangelising 4E and trying to de-legitimise all prior editions of D&D, and now you've contributed a didactic thread detailing, yet not detailing, 4E combat to an audience that largely knows how 4E combat works because we've played it.

What you've described in the OP are playing pieces, not living characters in a fantasy world.  That type of description would have been redundant in editions prior to 3E, because who the character is dictated its behaviour as much or more than what it is.

You can enthuse about the fun of miniature wargames - and I'll join you, because I love them - but considering that your usual schtick is "4E is more D&D than ever", I'll throw in with the cynics.

Quote from: samurai007;339147I've seen a fair number that don't (for all editions, not just 4e).  Some players don't bother making an interesting and unique personality and background, they just roll it up, pick some stuff, and go, so I don't assume anything.

This is true.  There are as many "Bob the fighter"s now as there ever has been.  This probably isn't surprising, since 4E targets an audience that is accustomed to running online characters with names like "1337r0XX0or92".

Quote from: Hairfoot;339215But as B.T. reminds us, you've spent the month since you signed up evangelising 4E and trying to de-legitimise all prior editions of D&D, and now you've contributed a didactic thread detailing, yet not detailing, 4E combat to an audience that largely knows how 4E combat works because we've played it.

He's evangelizing, sure, but this isn't an obnoxious way to go about it, provided of course a million of these don't start showing up.

Quote from: Imp;339218He's evangelizing, sure, but this isn't an obnoxious way to go about it, provided of course a million of these don't start showing up.

I would like to see another of these that actually is a detailed example of 4E combat. Probably not an 8 on 8, though.

(Off to read Doom's blog...)

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;339198I just read your blog and it's pretty good! I'll send you something later if you'd like to link exchange.

Thanks...I rather think much of it unreadable in a 'you had to have been there' sense, but, if not, kewlio. :)

I'm still most newb with online stuff, so PM with 'link exchange' details.

Quote from: Hairfoot;339215There are as many "Bob the fighter"s now as there ever has been.  This probably isn't surprising, since 4E targets an audience that is accustomed to running online characters with names like "1337r0XX0or92".

Interesting. I might be tempted to believe that WotC heavily targeted an audience of 3e players with their marketing of 4e, what with all the in-jokes about 3e, and outright slamming of it. So... do (or did) these groups equate, or even significantly overlap, in your PoV?

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339111As a DM I've learned what creates "the grind" and how to build encounters so it never happens. I've also taught players the system to avoid grind both in their behavior and in creating characters who can take care of business.

What are the main things you do as a DM to avoid the grind?

What do you teach players?  

I am always looking for more tips to throw out to my convention demo noobs.  

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339115I've also instituted a rule that minions get a saving throw against automatic damage, and survive if they save. Auto-damage works too well on minions and trivializes them.

Aren't minions immune to auto-damage?   I thought that was their big "special ability"

Might just be me but I would have been interested as to the links between the various opponents

A Brown Dragon, 2 Hellstinger Scorpions, 2 Cambions, 2 archers and a Chain Devil.

What was thier backstory? why were they fighting together? Was the Chain Devil the 'boss' or the Dragon?

How did the backstory affect their tactics? Do you think as a DM you ran the tactics as well as the Devil or Dragon (who one would assume have some equivalent of Genius level intelligence)?

Also a small rule thing but if a creature has grabbed something and it is pushed isn't the thing its grabbed pulled along with it? If that is a silly question I appologise I might have misunderstood some of the terms.

Quote from: jibbajibba;339279Also a small rule thing but if a creature has grabbed something and it is pushed isn't the thing its grabbed pulled along with it? If that is a silly question I appologise I might have misunderstood some of the terms.

Forced movement always breaks a grab.

Great for rescue tactics: my rogue only has one attack that does forced movement (Trick Shot which does damage and allows for a 1 square slide on a hit).  One time while exploring a goblin lair we got ambushed by a group of goblins and bugbears, including a strangler with a garrotte- he had one of my companions grabbed around the neck with his garrotte, using her as a shield.. we were at a standoff. Everyone else in the party was unconscious.

I picked up the hand crossbow from the goblin I had just downed, and was able to trick shot the bugbear backwards. "Hold still, Amaranth.."  

Then we both took him down.

Quote from: Spinachcat;339271What are the main things you do as a DM to avoid the grind?

What do you teach players?  

I am always looking for more tips to throw out to my convention demo noobs.  



Aren't minions immune to auto-damage?   I thought that was their big "special ability"

Actually they "never take damage on a miss", so Reaping Strike doesn't automatically work on them, but something like cleave does.

Quote from: rezinzar;339260Interesting. I might be tempted to believe that WotC heavily targeted an audience of 3e players with their marketing of 4e, what with all the in-jokes about 3e, and outright slamming of it. So... do (or did) these groups equate, or even significantly overlap, in your PoV?

Most 4E players in my experience are former 3E players. In my locla area, we do have a ton of folks for whom this is their first system, or they are returning to it, though.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;339283Most 4E players in my experience are former 3E players. In my locla area, we do have a ton of folks for whom this is their first system, or they are returning to it, though.

Oh, totally. I was just positing that Wizards of the Coast pitched quite a lot of their marketing directly at their then current customer base. It would make sense to do so, I think. And besides, on the face of it, some of it had to be.

And, therefore, I was wondering if the likely large group of 3e to 4e converts was essentially the same one that's 'accustomed to running online characters with names like "1337r0XX0or92"', or whether there was at least a good deal of overlap. According to Hairfoot, I mean.

Supplementary: As many, many 3e players were once 1e/2e/BD&D/OD&D players... how much overlap is there, within two steps?

Quote from: rezinzar;339286Oh, totally. I was just positing that Wizards of the Coast pitched quite a lot of their marketing directly at their then current customer base. It would make sense to do so, I think. And besides, on the face of it, some of it had to be.

And, therefore, I was wondering if the likely large group of 3e to 4e converts was essentially the same one that's 'accustomed to running online characters with names like "1337r0XX0or92"', or whether there was at least a good deal of overlap. According to Hairfoot, I mean.

I think that was actually just a WoW slur. But I have personally seen a minimum of joke names (with one exception: there's a group called the Regulators in PA that seems to be all about the joke names).

QuoteSupplementary: As many, many 3e players were once 1e/2e/BD&D/OD&D players... how much overlap is there, within two steps?

This I'm not sure, but I know we got some 2E guys who sat out 3e and got back in just because of Forgotten Realms. There's a guy named Erik in our Thursday group like that, in fact.

Sorry, I am in a silly mood today. Don't engage. < Hey me, something to remember!

For I have lurked long enough to know how some people here feel about a game or two, and Hairfoot, I seem to recall, truly believes (makes a show of believing?) that 4e was not only marketed at retarded teenagers, but is overwhelmingly played by said "demographic".

I just thought it would be hilarious if a large percentage of 4e players were actually ex-3e players, and so on. Especially the "so on". :D

This was not one of my better ideas. So I'll leave Mr. Oblivion's poor thread alone now. :o

Quote from: rezinzar;339288Sorry, I am in a silly mood today. Don't engage. < Hey me, something to remember!

For I have lurked long enough to know how some people here feel about a game or two, and Hairfoot, I seem to recall, truly believes (makes a show of believing?) that 4e was not only marketed at retarded teenagers, but is overwhelmingly played by said "demographic".

I just thought it would be hilarious if a large percentage of 4e players were actually ex-3e players, and so on. Especially the "so on". :D

This was not one of my better ideas. So I'll leave Mr. Oblivion's poor thread alone now. :o

Well.. the majority of 4E players are ex-3E players. The systems are directly related. We do get some younger players. If you like I can try and get some video interviews with some of the teenager players that sometimes show up on Thursdays at my local meetup. They aren't "every week" people, especially now that summer is over, but one of them is homeschooled and gets to come out every once in a while. I had him in my group last week in fact.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;339287I know we got some 2E guys who sat out 3e and got back in just because of Forgotten Realms.

Lots of guys in my 4e demo games are AD&D players who tried 3e and bailed back to 1e/2e or occassionally C&C.  
 
Almost every time, those AD&D players who enjoyed using minis & maps really enjoy 4e versus those who played AD&D very freeform.  Understandably, they feel the mandatory use of minis & maps to be constrictive.

My own detailed account of 4E combat:

In lieu of our usual weekly Scales of War game that I run on Monday nights, we decided to change it up and run the introductory adventure of the new Chaos Scar Adventure Path as a quick and dirty delve. We thought this would be a good idea as we were down a few players from the regular game and it would give us a chance to try a couple new options from the new Primal Power source book as well as a new class just released on D&Di.

Cast of Characters:

Hilda-Dwarven Protector Shaman (leader class that conjures a spirit companion to provide bonuses and healing to adjacent allies as well as attack nearby foes)

Laurel-Elven Swarm Druid (controller; class feature allows druid to wildshape into a swarm of insects or other tiny creatures, reducing the damage it takes from melee and ranged attacks; new feature from Primal Power)

Thorn-Elven Vengeful Seeker (archery based controller; fires arrows that explode into area effects that hamper and damage foes; new class from upcoming PHB3)

Sunder-Half-Orc Whirling Barbarian (dual wielding Barbarian build; class features and powers revolve around doing auto damage to nearby foes after successful melee attacks; new option from Primal Power)

Relic-Warforged Tempest Fighter (lightly armored, dual wielding fighter build; good at pinning down multiple foes)

This was a delve, so there wasn't much in the way of story, but the adventure background is that a long dead wizard was performing arcane experiments on a magic staff, which inadvertantly caused the staff to crack and hemorrhage magic, causing an earthquake that claimed the life of the wizard and ruined his keep, as well as opening a small dimensional rift leading to the plane of elemental chaos.

Our characters were sent from a nearby settlement to retrieve the staff...but when we got there we had found that a tribe of bullywugs had their own plans for it.

The adventure itself features 4 combat encounters in a muddy ruined keep with a lot of difficult and hazardous terrain features.

Quote from: rezinzar;339288Hairfoot, I seem to recall, truly believes (makes a show of believing?) that 4e was not only marketed at retarded teenagers, but is overwhelmingly played by said "demographic".

You recall incorrectly.  Where did I say teenagers are "retarded" or that they play 4E "overwhelmingly".

Encounter 1:

Having spotted a group of bullywugs rooting through the rubble of the ruined keep in search of plunder, the Druid wildshaped into a swarm of tree frogs to try and scout the area and get a good estimate of the enemies numbers. She was backed up by the Seeker, who was the only character with stealth training.

The Druid in treefrog form, hopped through the ruins unmolested until one bullywug made a lucky insight roll (or perception, nature, whatever it was) and croaked a warning to it's fellows. What followed was a surprise round in the party's favor.

The druid's player described it's attack thusly: the swarm of frogs swelled and exploded into a cloud of locusts, attacking everything in a blast 3 (3x3 squares originating from a square adjacent to the druid) utterly devouring one minion and damaging two skirmishers. The druid then spent an action point, allowing her to take another standard action, using her encounter power, another swarm based area attack, hitting both the skirmishers and bloodying them both (this means that at least half of their total hit points were gone) and as a supplementary effect of the power, would only take half damage from melee and ranged attacks until the end of her next turn.

The Seeker, who could see two groups of enemies from his vantage point, fired an arrow at one of the foes next to the druid as a ranged basic attack (the two foes engaging the druid were not adjacent to eachother, so none of the secondary effects of the seeker's powers would have come into play) rolling high for damage and killing it. The Seeker then spent an action point and loosed another arrow at the second group using an at-will power, missing the primary target of the attack initially, but after using the Elve's racial ability, re-rolled the attack successfully. The arrow became a streak of lightning in midflight, killing one bullywug minion and electrifying the area around it, ensuring that the adjacent minion would be destroyed at the beginning of it's turn with the attack's auto-damage effect.

The rest of the party was too far away for anything other than move actions, so we merely moved ourselves into position.

At this point, initiative was rolled.

ROUND 1:

Relic the Fighter rolled highest, but at the druid's behest agreed to hold his action.

The druid acted next, shifting back one square and wildshaping back into her elven form. She then used her chill wind at-will power to do a modest amount of cold damage to the skirmisher and sliding it one square, leaving it next to a stone wall. It was then that the fighter acted, charging the bullywug sandwiching it between his metal body and the wall. The DM described this as the warforged clanking it's way up to the half frozen creature, grasping it's head and slamming it into the wall, causing an extra 1d6 damage and shattering it to pieces.

The Seeker readied an action to fire at any hidden enemies that revealed themselves.

The monsters acted next, 4 bullywug brutes rose from deep from their hiding places in the knee deep mud wallows that filled the area (one of which immediately received an arrow from the Seeker, using an encounter power that not only bloodied it with poison damage, but also slowed it and imposed a -2 penalty to it's defenses)

Two of them charged the Isolated Barbarian, using their encounter powers, allowing them to knock a foe prone if they hit, but causing them to fall prone if they miss. The first one missed...the DM described this as the Barbarian side stepping a wild swing and kicking the bullywug in the chest, causing no damage but knocking it on it's ass. The other bullywug hit and knocked the Barbarian to the ground. One brute charged the fighter and missed. The injured and slowed brute lumbered it's way toward the Seeker but could not reach him.

Next was the Barbarian (played by me) he lunged upright into a crouch (move action) and swept the bullywug who had knocked him prone off of it's feet with a trip attack (successful DEX vs. Reflex defense roll) Spending an action point, the Barbarian used his encounter power, a close burst 1 attack (attacks all enemies adjacent to him) that does 2(w) damage on a hit (2d12 in his case, as my barbarian was dual wielding waraxes : ) but deals 1d6 damage to him everytime he misses. Luckily both foes were prone, thus granting combat advantage (that's 4e for "flat-footed" kinda-sorta) and a +2 to hit. Both attacks were successful, dealing 22 damage to each target. The Barbarian invoked his racial ability, adding an extra d12 damage to one of the brutes, felling it, and then invoked a class feature allowing him to shift and deal another d12 damage to an adjacent enemy after dropping a target to 0hp. This killed the other one.

On the Shaman's turn, she healed the barbarian as a minor action (swift action in 3e) and then used another minor action to summon her spirit animal, a boar, next to the brute who was charging the seeker, missing it with an attack, but granting the fighter temp HP (in 4E this is basically a damage soak) and damage resistance to the seeker.

ROUND 2:

The Druid used her thorn whip at-will power, transforming her staff into a gnarled tangle of vines, to grasp the brute attacking the fighter and pull it 2 squares into a flanking position, giving the fighter combat advantage.

The Fighter, with a +2 to attack with combat advantage, struck the brute and killed it using his encounter power...essentially towering over the terrified bullywug and burying both of his short swords hilt deep in it's chest, as the DM described it.

The Seeker shifted one square so he could be next to the Shaman's spirit companion and gain the bonus to defenses that it offered. Using a minor action, he designated the bullywug as his hunter's quarry (this is an ability gained through taking the multi-class feat for Ranger's, granting the character a once per encounter use of the Ranger's extra damage class feature) and plugged the monster in the head, killing it and ending the first encounter.

One thing to note here is that our group likes to call the encounter early once all of it's more dynamic elements have been exhausted. Fights tend to get boring when it's five PC's duking it out with one or two remaining monsters who can't really offer any sort of credible threat to any of them. We call this the "clean up" portion of the encounter. Since it was obvious after the first round that we had won the fight, the DM simply ruled that the next decent hits the monsters took would drop them.

This tends to trim away some encounter lag time, expend less party resources, allowing them to accomplish more between extended rests, and helps speed the adventure along so that you can get to the gooey story-driven center.

Let me know if anyone is interested in hearing how the other encounters went.

I'd be interested in more from both Casual and Shazbot....I'm always keen on advice that helps speed up combat, too. Definiteluy agree that one of the best ways to "speed it up" is to recognize when one side is on the losing end....that's usually the time for a break in morale, as I run it, leading to surrendur or a quick route.

I discovered this forum today via a link over at rpgnet and am so far absolutely stunned at the rabid system hatred (in whatever direction) that dominates here, as well as the forum crapping that seems to be a given....I thought rpg.net has problems, now it looks remarkably civil....

Ah well, I was enjoying Cas's post until about the third response or so, then once again the bulk of this went south until Shaz got it back online!

Quote from: camazotz;339727I'd be interested in more from both Casual and Shazbot....I'm always keen on advice that helps speed up combat, too. Definiteluy agree that one of the best ways to "speed it up" is to recognize when one side is on the losing end....that's usually the time for a break in morale, as I run it, leading to surrendur or a quick route.

I discovered this forum today via a link over at rpgnet and am so far absolutely stunned at the rabid system hatred (in whatever direction) that dominates here, as well as the forum crapping that seems to be a given....I thought rpg.net has problems, now it looks remarkably civil....

Ah well, I was enjoying Cas's post until about the third response or so, then once again the bulk of this went south until Shaz got it back online!

The system crapping isn't any worse here, it's just that the moderation has a MUCH softer hand about things over here.

But yes, that does have the net effect of turning every thread in which D&D is mentioned into a 4e flamewar with one side claiming you are a retarded 13 year old if you play it and the other side claiming that if you're not in love with it, you clearly just hate RPGs and aren't a real gamer anymore.

Quote from: camazotz;339727I discovered this forum today via a link over at rpgnet and am so far absolutely stunned at the rabid system hatred (in whatever direction) that dominates here, as well as the forum crapping that seems to be a given....I thought rpg.net has problems, now it looks remarkably civil....

Ah well, I was enjoying Cas's post until about the third response or so, then once again the bulk of this went south until Shaz got it back online!

There were D&D based flamewars long before there was ever a 4E. Eventually people will start bickering over something else.

As for speeding up 4E combat, I tend to alter things according to my own tastes when running a game.

I prefer things to be quick and deadly, so I decrease monster hit points by about 1/4 for typicals and elites and 1/2 for solos, and decrease defenses by 1 point. (this helps prevent the encounter from becoming a battle of attrition where both sides are spamming at-wills at one another.) I also tend to increase monster damage by 2 or so points and increase their attack modifier.

Also, like I mentioned before, there is having a sense of when to call the battle.

Also, one houserule that I employ is that spending a healing surge outside of combat restores hit points equal to the characters bloodied value (helps stretch out party resources and staves off the 15 minute workday)

Keep in mind though, that I'm fairly new to the whole DMing thing, so these are likely to change if I find it is adversely affecting the game.

Quote from: Shazbot79;339771There were D&D based flamewars long before there was ever a 4E. Eventually people will start bickering over something else.

As for speeding up 4E combat, I tend to alter things according to my own tastes when running a game.

I prefer things to be quick and deadly, so I decrease monster hit points by about 1/4 for typicals and elites and 1/2 for solos, and decrease defenses by 1 point. (this helps prevent the encounter from becoming a battle of attrition where both sides are spamming at-wills at one another.) I also tend to increase monster damage by 2 or so points and increase their attack modifier.

Also, like I mentioned before, there is having a sense of when to call the battle.

Also, one houserule that I employ is that spending a healing surge outside of combat restores hit points equal to the characters bloodied value (helps stretch out party resources and staves off the 15 minute workday)

Keep in mind though, that I'm fairly new to the whole DMing thing, so these are likely to change if I find it is adversely affecting the game.

Nice ideas. I've been toying around with modifying the hit points and damage ratios, as well, mostly along the lines of cutting the monster HPs (by as much as half) and doubling their damage totals. It seems to lead to shorter and more intense fights, while at the same time keeping the mods "invisible" to the players. I am fortunate not to have any rules lawyers around at present to demand that I explain why minion X is doing 10 points of damage instead of 5, although in the latest experiment with this I informed the players that I was going to mess around with some house rules that would be "behind the scenes" but would affect play. It helps my group, which is by and large very, very very slow moving when it comes to combat sequences.

I've also been adapting the Pathfinder Critical Hit Deck to anything under the sea (used it in my closing C&C game, PF of course, and 4E). I've played it pretty well "by the book" in 4E with only minor adjustments for system variance (i.e. ability damage becomes -2 penalty increments to skills/abilities with cumulative effects that are save to remove or end of encounter, depending on how the card reads) and I've been allowing them to double or triple their base critical according to the cards. This has had the distinct effect of some impressive high-damage one shot kills in the paragon level campaign so far, although I made sure all the players clearly understood that a crit 20 on their daily may be cool, but it will work well in reverse when a monster does the same back.....they managed 4 crits in last night's session and loved it, got lucky and I rolled no crits for the monsters. That will change, of course....

Quote from: rezinzar;339288Sorry, I am in a silly mood today. Don't engage. < Hey me, something to remember!

For I have lurked long enough to know how some people here feel about a game or two, and Hairfoot, I seem to recall, truly believes (makes a show of believing?) that 4e was not only marketed at retarded teenagers, but is overwhelmingly played by said "demographic".

I just thought it would be hilarious if a large percentage of 4e players were actually ex-3e players, and so on. Especially the "so on". :D

This was not one of my better ideas. So I'll leave Mr. Oblivion's poor thread alone now. :o

Heh!

In my two game groups, of 13 players one is 21 (marine), my wife is 26, and the remainder run from age 36 to 58. Every single one of us except for two guys are 3.X converts, and the remaining two guys are 1E converts to 4E (they skipped that whole 1988-2008 phase).

We can, however, easily be mistaken for retarded teenagers, so I guess he's right....
:rotfl:

This example sounds very fun, however, it doesn't bring to mind all the fun I've had around the gaming table, it reminds me of all the fun I've had playing MMOGs.  When the Everquest RPG came out, my friends and I played it, it was a way to get Everquest with more RP and less Grind.  The Warcraft RPG, otoh, didn't vary the D20 rules enough to really make it World of Warcraft, it was a pale imitation.

4E strikes me as the perfect system to make a WoW RPG in, or DAoC or LoTRO for that matter.  It is the perfect MMOG simulator.  The problem is, MMOG's for me always carried with them a caveat, namely they weren't really set up well for roleplaying, killing people and taking their stuff with the greatest build and epic gear set you've worked hard for is what they do well.

4e seems like a godsend to people who want to take a MMOG and add some RP to it.  Apply it to Eberron, Realms, Greyhawk or any other setting that started out as a roleplaying environment, and 4e just makes a cheap paper videogame version of that world.

I guess for me it all has to do with the level of disbelief required.  With a MMOG, like a narrative wargame or tactical combat game, I know going in that there are going to be more structured rules, less improvisation, less open roleplay, it just goes with the genre.  Starting out from the perspective of a RPG though, the bar is set much higher for me, as far as suspension of disbelief goes.  There's way too much metagaming in 4e for me to get into my "RP zone".

I realize that distinction is really my problem and not 4e's, but I just need a proper setting, preferably a new one, so I can get my mind in the right place.  Xcrawl seems like a setting 4e could do well, possibly Wraith Recon.

Anyway, sorry if I derailed the thread, but I do like reading 4e battle reports even if they do nothing for the RPer in me, only the MMOGer. :)

Quote from: camazotz;339727I discovered this forum today via a link over at rpgnet and am so far absolutely stunned at the rabid system hatred (in whatever direction) that dominates here, as well as the forum crapping that seems to be a given....I thought rpg.net has problems, now it looks remarkably civil.

Welcome to Thunder Dome.   The rules are simple:  Two men enter.  Both lawncrap.  Finally, someone gets bored and leaves.

BTW, your favorite game sucks and your posts are destroying the entire hobby.

Quote from: camazotz;339923I've been toying around with modifying the hit points and damage ratios, as well, mostly along the lines of cutting the monster HPs (by as much as half) and doubling their damage totals.

I did a playtest of this.  Double damage was a bit psycho...especially on crits.   Half HP is great though.   I am playing around now with adding 1[W] to the monster damage.  

Quote from: camazotz;339923It helps my group, which is by and large very, very very slow moving when it comes to combat sequences.

Do you use Power Cards?   I have found they do a GREAT job helping a group speed up their combat gameplay.

Quote from: camazotz;339727I discovered this forum today via a link over at rpgnet and am so far absolutely stunned at the rabid system hatred (in whatever direction) that dominates here, as well as the forum crapping that seems to be a given....I thought rpg.net has problems, now it looks remarkably civil....

Fuck you!

Also, welcome to theRPGsite.

RPGPundit

Quote from: camazotz;339727I discovered this forum today via a link over at rpgnet and am so far absolutely stunned at the rabid system hatred (in whatever direction) that dominates here, as well as the forum crapping that seems to be a given....I thought rpg.net has problems, now it looks remarkably civil....
!

Problems? Heh, RPGnet is some sort of joke, although it's not an easy one to get. The illusion of civility there is only because the mods do alot of harassing via PMs...and they actually ban for things discussed privately, not counting, of course, what is said on the (private) Mod forums.

Quote from: camazotz;339727I discovered this forum today via a link over at rpgnet and am so far absolutely stunned at the rabid system hatred (in whatever direction) that dominates here, as well as the forum crapping that seems to be a given....I thought rpg.net has problems, now it looks remarkably civil....

Civility is an illusion at RPG.net.  There, you have passive-aggressive trolling that the Nazi moderation system enforces.  The tactic, of course, is to subtly troll someone into making an outburst and then reporting the post to the moderators.

It's a beautiful thing.

Quote from: B.T.;340370Civility is an illusion at RPG.net.  There, you have passive-aggressive trolling that the Nazi moderation system enforces.  The tactic, of course, is to subtly troll someone into making an outburst and then reporting the post to the moderators.

It's a beautiful thing.

I have heard this before, and seen it happen on a couple occasions....

Well, there's something very compelling about the baseline honesty at rpgsite here, so I think I'm hooked, either way....!

Quote from: camazotz;340481Well, there's something very compelling about the baseline honesty at rpgsite here, so I think I'm hooked, either way....!

It's so much better than the passive-aggressive nonsense on other sites.

Oh, and check your Private Message folder, c-zotz.

Quote from: Spinachcat;340073Welcome to Thunder Dome.   The rules are simple:  Two men enter.  Both lawncrap.  Finally, someone gets bored and leaves.

BTW, your favorite game sucks and your posts are destroying the entire hobby.



I did a playtest of this.  Double damage was a bit psycho...especially on crits.   Half HP is great though.   I am playing around now with adding 1[W] to the monster damage.  



Do you use Power Cards?   I have found they do a GREAT job helping a group speed up their combat gameplay.

A couple of my players use the power cards. At this point I've decided I have one key player who is a problem for everyone, as he recently departed from the Saturday night game, and the overall quality of the game massively improved in his absence. He still attends the Wednesday game, which is spiraling downward. I'm also rather impressed at his brazen brass ones; he recently constructed an new level 14 character to replace his recently deceased character (he lost an eladrin avenger, and replaced it with....surprise....an eladrin avenger). After reviewing his submitted character at the end of session, I noticed that in addition to the DMG-reccommended "1 item of level, one of level+1 and one of level-1, and as much cash at  a level-1 would equal-17,000 GP-" that he somehow managed to stack on around 90,000 GP of additional equipment on to his character. He also used the roll-method and managed to start with base stats of 14, 15, 16, 17, 17, and 18...riiiiight. Yeesh.

Anyway, this guy's #1 problem is that combat almost freezes when it comes ot his turn, in which he spends several minutes calculating his numbers (which is odd, as he used DDI on his laptop). He is also a rather aggresive player, causing spats between other players, acting as a grammar cop, lecturing at length on his esoteric field of study, and so forth. His absence in the other game so dramatically improved play over the last three sessions that it's impossible not to consider that his mere act of showing up creates an apathetic environment. I'll admit that some of it might be my fault...he's an attention hog as well, and I think he spotted my weak point, which is unabashed interest in absorbing my campaign setting and doing things plot-wise that force my attention back on to him by virtue of his outrageous actions. Not that the other guys don't do that....but they all grokk this concept of "equal time for everyone" and I have been letting this guy get away with too much time-hogging, I think.  

Um....woo, this turned in to a bitch-session unload. Anyway, the guys who use power cards are definitely helped by them. Those who bring laptops and use DDI seem to be fairly with it, and the main crunch seems to be a lengthy "dragging out" of the combat process due to everyone relying more heavily on their at-wills, apparently hoarding encounter and daily powers (which is odd, as by and large in game time they usually have plenty fo time to rest up between ecounters.) I like the idea of bumping up damage by 1W though, as you're right, double damage can have some huge effects on certain monster key abilities. I do find that doubling minion damage makes them more formidable (d'uhr) though! It helps to make the wizard feel even more useful in wiping them out (or the warrior and his whirlwind of doom).

Quote from: The Shaman;340595It's so much better than the passive-aggressive nonsense on other sites.

Oh, and check your Private Message folder, c-zotz.

Interesting site over there, I'll have to investigate further!

Quote from: camazotz;340652Anyway, this guy's #1 problem is that combat almost freezes when it comes ot his turn, in which he spends several minutes calculating his numbers (which is odd, as he used DDI on his laptop).

The DDI Character Builder is the single greatest strength with 4e D&D (IMO, YMMV, etc.).  It separates the chaff from the wheat, so to speak, when it comes to the +1 dudes.  Argh, I hated this in our 3.5 D&D games.  The +1 dude is the guy who rolls for something, misses, and then makes everyone wait while he scours his character sheet or books to squeeze out one or two more bonuses.  Also, he usually announces the extra bonus, which makes the roll successful, after the group moved onto the next player's turn, or the one after the next.  

I love the Character Builder because it lays out the total bonus for attack and damage rolls for each power and basic attacks.  Yes, there are the few odd bonuses that have to be added manually, usually the result of a feat or feature that applies in a very specific situation.  However, this additional calculation on the fly is significantly reduced in 4e D&D over 3.x D&D.

Unsurprisingly, the +1 dude in our group refuses to use the Character Builder and creates and calculates his character manually.

Quote from: Drohem;340671I love the Character Builder because it lays out the total bonus for attack and damage rolls for each power and basic attacks.  

I love it, too, for that reason. I have yet to look anything up during a 4e session.

Seanchai

Quote from: Drohem;340671The DDI Character Builder is the single greatest strength with 4e D&D (IMO, YMMV, etc.).  It separates the chaff from the wheat, so to speak, when it comes to the +1 dudes.  Argh, I hated this in our 3.5 D&D games.  The +1 dude is the guy who rolls for something, misses, and then makes everyone wait while he scours his character sheet or books to squeeze out one or two more bonuses.  Also, he usually announces the extra bonus, which makes the roll successful, after the group moved onto the next player's turn, or the one after the next.  

I love the Character Builder because it lays out the total bonus for attack and damage rolls for each power and basic attacks.  Yes, there are the few odd bonuses that have to be added manually, usually the result of a feat or feature that applies in a very specific situation.  However, this additional calculation on the fly is significantly reduced in 4e D&D over 3.x D&D.

Unsurprisingly, the +1 dude in our group refuses to use the Character Builder and creates and calculates his character manually.

Yeah. I was getting pretty tired of the lengthy scouring process going on, and last session requested everyone procure character sheets/files for me. That's when I discovered the enormous number of special house rules, the 55 character point build and the fact that he had 90,000 GPs worth of additional magic items over his starting and earned alotment. I was...peturbed, to say the least.

My policy is: everyone uses the character builder, no exceptions. If they don't own it, they can borrow mine.

Then I upload all the build files to http://iplay4e.com for maintenance and portability (so that people can download them back out or transfer them from computer to computer if needed).

DDI generally finds all the mistakes. Not that there are that many!

Quote from: Drohem;340671I love the Character Builder because it lays out the total bonus for attack and damage rolls for each power and basic attacks.  Yes, there are the few odd bonuses that have to be added manually, usually the result of a feat or feature that applies in a very specific situation.  However, this additional calculation on the fly is significantly reduced in 4e D&D over 3.x D&D.

In my admittedly limited experience with 4E I found that combat throws out a lot of temporary, situational modifiers (e.g. marking enemies, abilities that grant temporary bonuses or penalies to attack or AC).  I can't see how DDI could help with these, so your +1 guy is going to go through the same spiel whether they use DDI or not...

I also have to say that +1 type play goes back at least to 2nd edition in my experience, probably first, though more commonly only at the higher character levels.

Quote from: The Shaman;340595It's so much better than the passive-aggressive nonsense on other sites.

Oh, and check your Private Message folder, c-zotz.

Agreed.  Here we can punch each other in the face, kick each other in the balls, tell a guy to go fuck his mother, and then in a different thread be entirely civil and on the same side of an argument. Here, we leave the passive out of passive-aggressive, and as a result shit blows over much faster, and you always know where a person is coming from.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;340762Agreed.  Here we can punch each other in the face, kick each other in the balls, tell a guy to go fuck his mother, and then in a different thread be entirely civil and on the same side of an argument. Here, we leave the passive out of passive-aggressive, and as a result shit blows over much faster, and you always know where a person is coming from.

Yeah...it's kind of like in grade school when you would get in a fist fight and bloody eachother's noses, but by the end of the day you are watching cartoons together and talking about your favorite comic books.

I think that violence and aggression can be a form of male bonding.