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A Damning Rebuke of Anti-"immersionists" From Beyond the Grave

Started by RPGPundit, March 05, 2008, 02:50:44 PM

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RPGPundit

March 05, 2008, 02:50:44 PM
Gary Gygax wrote: "There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you're involved in".

Emphasis mine.

That's the fundamental feature of an RPG.  Its what makes it an RPG. Its not "Immersionism" in any kind of a derogatory sense, not an "impossible thing" or something that is a lie at best or mental illness at worse, as the Forgies try to imply.

Its the very essence of what Mr.Gygax designed RPGs to be.

Try to take that away, and you're doing something other than an RPG.

Try to design an RPG where that isn't your goal, or where it is in fact discouraged, and you will create a flawed product.

RPGPundit
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droog

#1
March 05, 2008, 03:02:43 PM
Who cares what a dead white guy says?
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

GrimJesta

#2
March 05, 2008, 03:04:31 PM
Quote from: droogWho cares what a dead white guy says?

U.S. Constitutionalists?

-=Grim=-
Quote from: Drohem;290472...there\'s always going to be someone to spew a geyser of frothy sand from their engorged vagina.  
Playing: Nothing.
Running: D&D 5e
Planning: Nothing.

Koltar

#3
March 05, 2008, 03:09:24 PM
Quote from: droogWho cares what a dead white guy says?


WE do!! - when its the guy that created the whole frigging ball of wax in the first place!!!
 Zheeeesh!!!


- Ed C.
The return of \'You can\'t take the Sky From me!\'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUn-eN8mkDw&feature=rec-fresh+div

This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WnjVUBDbs

Still here, still alive, at least Seven years now...

Gunslinger

#4
March 05, 2008, 03:14:30 PM
I'm with Old Geezer on this one.  I get nervous about people who are actually imagining they are Batman.  That leads to middle aged dudes jumping around in Underoos.  Them imagining what Batman would do in any situation is just fine for the level of immersion I want.
 

James McMurray

#5
March 05, 2008, 03:18:54 PM
Trying to have your war ride the coattails of a great gamer's death? Pathetic.

And that's all I'll say for this thread.

Koltar

#6
March 05, 2008, 03:20:47 PM
How the hell did we get to "Batman" already???

Pundit's got a point here, whether or not some of you guys like it. To me "immersion" is very much ;ike when reading a really good book and suddenly its not words on a page - you're THERE and look around and you actually see what the author is describing.

 You don't have to get into costumes or use props - but your imagination is engaged in a major way.


- Ed C.
The return of \'You can\'t take the Sky From me!\'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUn-eN8mkDw&feature=rec-fresh+div

This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WnjVUBDbs

Still here, still alive, at least Seven years now...

jrients

#7
March 05, 2008, 03:21:05 PM
Following Gygax's advice when running D&D can produce some great results.  Trying to apply his words to the entire breadth of a hobby seems a lot dodgier of a proposition to me.
Jeff Rients
My gameblog

RChandler

#8
March 05, 2008, 03:23:01 PM
Quote from: James McMurrayPathetic.

Agreed. Whether you're right or wrong, Pundit, it's shameful to cringe behind someone else's words, and it's worse to drag Gygax into your spiteful silliness. Stick to your garden-variety rants.
Rafael Chandler, Neoplastic Press
The Books of Pandemonium

Koltar

#9
March 05, 2008, 03:28:07 PM
To be fair - the pipe smoking curmudgeon has quoted Gygax at least 3 or 4 times BEFORE yesterday's sad news.

This has been in the last 4 months too.

So, no, he is not using the sad event for a usual rant - Pundit is just staying consistent with quoting Gary Gygax. (like he's done many times before)

- Ed C.
The return of \'You can\'t take the Sky From me!\'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUn-eN8mkDw&feature=rec-fresh+div

This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WnjVUBDbs

Still here, still alive, at least Seven years now...

walkerp

#10
March 05, 2008, 03:47:14 PM
You're like a Hamas suicide bomber.*  You need some serious de-programming.


*Note: simile used in terms of form, not scale.  Obviously, fighting an imaginary war- oh no wait, forget it, that simile sucks.  Hamas actually has enemies.  

Anyways, you need some de-programming!
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

Haffrung

#11
March 05, 2008, 03:52:26 PM
Quote from: RPGPunditGary Gygax wrote: "There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you're involved in".


Yep. And he put it even better in a comment quoted in the NY Time obituary, where he said radio is better than television because the pictures are better. In other words, the game is just an interface to inspire your imagination to make fantastic pictures.

If the miniatures on the table-top and the numbers on your character sheet are the only thing you see or think about when you play, then you're playing an extremely complicated boardgame, not an RPG as imagined by the creator of D&D.
 

luke

#12
March 05, 2008, 03:52:48 PM
I'm sad the old dude's gone, too.

He was wrong about the winning and losing thing, though.
I certainly wouldn't call Luke a vanity publisher, he's obviously worked very hard to promote BW, as have a handful of other guys from the Forge. -- The RPG Pundit

Give me a complete asshole writing/designing solid games any day over a nice incompetent. -- The Consonant Dude

multipleegos

#13
March 05, 2008, 04:03:07 PM
Quote from: RPGPunditGary Gygax wrote: "There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you’re involved in".

Emphasis mine.

That's the fundamental feature of an RPG.  Its what makes it an RPG. Its not "Immersionism" in any kind of a derogatory sense, not an "impossible thing" or something that is a lie at best or mental illness at worse, as the Forgies try to imply.

Its the very essence of what Mr.Gygax designed RPGs to be.

Try to take that away, and you're doing something other than an RPG.

Try to design an RPG where that isn't your goal, or where it is in fact discouraged, and you will create a flawed product.

RPGPundit

I'm agreeing with Pundit on this one. Yes yes. And...

Oh dear. When did Immersionism become a dirty word? Was this a Forge development, because I don't really hang around there that much these days...
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walkerp

#14
March 05, 2008, 04:06:40 PM
Quote from: multipleegosOh dear. When did Immersionism become a dirty word? Was this a Forge development, because I don't really hang around there that much these days...
Don't get sucked in, multipleegos!  There was a tiny flash of a tiny sub-group (of another tiny sub-group) that criticized the idea of immersion.  But they are in their own little world and nobody cares about them and most people are really enjoying their gaming.  Pundit is just trying to create wars and fights for reasons nobody can really understand.
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos
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