Kickstarter was too good.  Why would I ever give him another dime of my money when he gave me: 1st edition pdfs, d20 pdfs, a physical core rulebook, and pdfs of most of what he produced?

At the time, I thought that the kickstarter was a brilliant business move. Offering a mechanism to purchase sourcebooks right there at the time of your initial core rule purchase, when people would be most primed to make such a purchase. It would also generate real, solid pre order numbers for the entire line. And, while collecting all of this money for an entire line up front, he also got the added attention to his kickstarter for how large it was - more attention, more eyes, more sales.

But the long tail isn't what it used to be in the industry. The Khitai kickstarter was very good - but still only a sixth the size of 7th Sea Second Edition. The war of the cross board game didn't fund. Did 2018 have any big kickstarters for John Wick Presents? I'm not certain, but I think the answer's going to be no. So, as much as I like Wick's writing, and the settings he's come up with - I can see how a magnificent start might have lead directly to a cash flow problem.

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;1083006At the time, I thought that the kickstarter was a brilliant business move. Offering a mechanism to purchase sourcebooks right there at the time of your initial core rule purchase, when people would be most primed to make such a purchase. It would also generate real, solid pre order numbers for the entire line. And, while collecting all of this money for an entire line up front, he also got the added attention to his kickstarter for how large it was - more attention, more eyes, more sales.

I'm still not convinced it isn't a good move.  I think the flaw in the execution--and this is complete armchair quarterbacking on my part--is that the KS model relied entirely on the sale of PRINTED books.  By that I mean, if you paid your $40, you got EVERYTHING in pdf.  But if you wanted printed books, you upped your pledge for each book you wanted.  I'm not sure the KS would have been as successful if each 2nd ed sourcebook pdf had been a $10 add-on, but I think the model would have been more sustainable.  

I think the idea was meant to appeal to collectors over players.  I don't do a lot of kickstarters, but I am shocked at the number of comments where backers would throw money at the project and then re-emerge months later asking basic questions about releases and deliveries long after fulfillment had begun.  Is that typical with big KS projects?

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;1083087I'm still not convinced it isn't a good move.  I think the flaw in the execution--and this is complete armchair quarterbacking on my part--is that the KS model relied entirely on the sale of PRINTED books.  By that I mean, if you paid your $40, you got EVERYTHING in pdf.  But if you wanted printed books, you upped your pledge for each book you wanted.  I'm not sure the KS would have been as successful if each 2nd ed sourcebook pdf had been a $10 add-on, but I think the model would have been more sustainable.  

I think the idea was meant to appeal to collectors over players.  I don't do a lot of kickstarters, but I am shocked at the number of comments where backers would throw money at the project and then re-emerge months later asking basic questions about releases and deliveries long after fulfillment had begun.  Is that typical with big KS projects?

Tom

I had absolutely zero interest in a super-narrative version of 7th Sea.  I kickstarted for the set of 1st Edition pdfs alone.  If some interesting setting material came out of 2nd Edition, it would be a welcome surprise.

I doubt I was the only one.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1083091I had absolutely zero interest in a super-narrative version of 7th Sea.  I kickstarted for the set of 1st Edition pdfs alone.  If some interesting setting material came out of 2nd Edition, it would be a welcome surprise.

I doubt I was the only one.

I'm sure you weren't.  But it begs the question: would you have backed it at the $40 level if all you got were PDFs of the 1st ed line and the 2nd ed core book?  

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;1083105I'm sure you weren't.  But it begs the question: would you have backed it at the $40 level if all you got were PDFs of the 1st ed line and the 2nd ed core book?  

Tom

I can't speak for him, but if you want the 1st ed PDF's that would still be a very good deal.

And it is worth mentioning that one only got to see the previews of the actual 2nd edition system after you backed it, and John Wick already had your money.

But, for those that the new system was a turnoff, the original Kickstarter deal was otherwise so ridiculously good, many just let it ride thinking at the very least they might be able to pinch some of the new setting material.

So IMHO, Wick got a big false market signal for his game, and proceeded to overextend himself thinking new sales of his very popular kickstarter would make up the difference.

But I think that once reviews of the new system came out, it was a turnoff for enough potential buyers, that new non-kickstarter sales never really took off.

And so, Chaosium...

Quote from: Jaeger;1083109I can't speak for him, but if you want the 1st ed PDF's that would still be a very good deal.

And it is worth mentioning that one only got to see the previews of the actual 2nd edition system after you backed it, and John Wick already had your money.

But, for those that the new system was a turnoff, the original Kickstarter deal was otherwise so ridiculously good, many just let it ride thinking at the very least they might be able to pinch some of the new setting material.

So IMHO, Wick got a big false market signal for his game, and proceeded to overextend himself thinking new sales of his very popular kickstarter would make up the difference.

But I think that once reviews of the new system came out, it was a turnoff for enough potential buyers, that new non-kickstarter sales never really took off.

And so, Chaosium...

That's where one of my friends fell. He absolutely loves 7S1e and jumped in. Then he got the 2e rules and hated them. He was still happy enough with the kickstarter since he now had all of those 1e pdfs, but he wasn't about to drop another dime on 2e stuff. I'd imagine there are plenty of others that had similar reactions.

John Wick lost his RPG design mojo when he left AEG. His work on L5R 1e and 7th Sea 1e was excellent back in the day.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083214John Wick lost his RPG design mojo when he left AEG. His work on L5R 1e and 7th Sea 1e was excellent back in the day.

I don't think that he 'lost' anything so much as his personal gaming / GM preferences have changed.

The diepool mechanic in Houses of the Blooded is a kissing cousin to the new 7th sea.

The fact that his kickstarter deal was just a little too good for financial sense, was compounded by the fact that most of his potential future buyers are not in the same place as him in terms of system preference.

He put his money where his mouth was system wise with the new 7th sea, and... Chaosium.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083214John Wick lost his RPG design mojo when he left AEG. His work on L5R 1e and 7th Sea 1e was excellent back in the day.

I'm not sure how much Wick was responsible for the design aspect of R/K, particularly with 7th Sea. I don't think Kevin Wilson gets enough credit for his contribution. When I met both of them at GenCon back in the day, Kevin was the one who was always fiddling with mechanics (swordsman schools). He was also responsible for some of the chunkier sourcebooks early in the line.

Last time I checked, Kevin was developing board games at FFG.

Also remember that Mike Curry was the main mechanics guy behind 7th Sea 2e. For me, all this points to Wick being more the big picture director/executive producer type more than the mechanics guy. But I could be wrong about that. I've heard rumors that the basis for the Raise mechanic in 7S2 was prototyped in an unreleased game of his that was being developed before he bought the rights to 7th Sea. So....

Tom

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083214John Wick lost his RPG design mojo when he left AEG. His work on L5R 1e and 7th Sea 1e was excellent back in the day.

I'm not sure how much Wick was responsible for the design aspect of R/K, particularly with 7th Sea. I don't think Kevin Wilson gets enough credit for his contribution. When I met both of them at GenCon back in the day, Kevin was the one who was always fiddling with mechanics (swordsman schools). He was also responsible for some of the chunkier sourcebooks early in the line.

Last time I checked, Kevin was developing board games at FFG.

Also remember that Mike Curry was the main mechanics guy behind 7th Sea 2e. For me, all this points to Wick being more the big picture director/executive producer type more than the mechanics guy. But I could be wrong about that. I've heard rumors that the basis for the Raise mechanic in 7S2 was prototyped in an unreleased game of his that was being developed before he bought the rights to 7th Sea. So....

Tom

I've gamed with Wilson and Wick at the LA conventions back when AEG used to have a big booth and demo presence. Kevin Wilson is very nice guy, but John Wick is the far better GM. I would not be surprised Wick was responsible for setting fluff and Wilson was doing system crunch, especially as Wilson's games were very rules-as-written and Wick's games used his own system as an afterthought.

They should team up again.

Quote from: Blusponge;1083252I'm not sure how much Wick was responsible for the design aspect of R/K, particularly with 7th Sea....
Also remember that Mike Curry was the main mechanics guy behind 7th Sea 2e. For me, all this points to Wick being more the big picture director/executive producer type more than the mechanics guy. But I could be wrong about that. I've heard rumors that the basis for the Raise mechanic in 7S2 was prototyped in an unreleased game of his that was being developed before he bought the rights to 7th Sea. So.......

I think this article where in takling about the James Bond 007 RPG, he states that: "...me and Dave Williams stealing the bidding mechanic for Legend of the Five Rings RPG. But that's a different story."
https://web.archive.org/web/20070313041436/http://www.fandomlife.net/fln/article.cfm?ID=23

So he was involved mechanically in the RPGs on some level.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1083304I've gamed with Wilson and Wick at the LA conventions back when AEG used to have a big booth and demo presence. ... Wilson's games were very rules-as-written and Wick's games used his own system as an afterthought.

....

He probably already leaned to a more fast and loose playstyle. And he made the system He wanted to use for 2e 7th Sea.

But I don't think it was a system change the majority of the 1st ed fans were willing to follow his direction on.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1082140Huh? Didn't 7th Sea 2e have a $1M Kickstarter years ago? Did he deliver all the books?

well, funny thing, he used a bunch of the money from the 2 kickstarters to invest in other stuff for the IP, boardgames, video games, a potential movie, things like that.  All of which cost money. Money that the bakcers had assumed were going to be going to authors and artists, not Wick's vanity.

Quote from: remial;1083343well, funny thing, he used a bunch of the money from the 2 kickstarters to invest in other stuff for the IP, boardgames, video games, a potential movie, things like that.  All of which cost money. Money that the bakcers had assumed were going to be going to authors and artists, not Wick's vanity.

Well, now that was just stupid.