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Monsters in 5e

Started by Turanil, May 30, 2014, 01:14:06 PM

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Exploderwizard

#30
June 03, 2014, 12:23:36 PM
Quote from: Larsdangly;755069I don't understand what people are talking about when they debate the power balance between monsters and PC's on adventures. The world doesn't owe your characters a series of fights with opponents just-tough-enough-to-hang-around-a-couple-of-rounds-but-not-tough-enough-to-kill-you. The troll who lives under the bridge is a troll whether you are 1st level or 10th.

Been away from D&D for the past 15 years have we? The 3E ruleset really kicked off an era of entitled players.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

Larsdangly

#31
June 03, 2014, 12:45:16 PM
There are several comments above regarding scaling up the power of 'weak' monsters (e.g., kobolds) and scaling down that of 'strong' ones (e.g., demons). But I can't quite figure out what people mean based on this thread. What 5e rules are people referring to here?

jadrax

#32
June 03, 2014, 01:09:51 PM
Quote from: Larsdangly;755095There are several comments above regarding scaling up the power of 'weak' monsters (e.g., kobolds) and scaling down that of 'strong' ones (e.g., demons). But I can't quite figure out what people mean based on this thread. What 5e rules are people referring to here?

It tends to shift power by level to Damage/hp rather To Hit/AC

So if you look at a 3.5 Iron Golem:
18 HD (129 hp); AC 30; To Hit +23; Dam 2d10+11 (22)

While in Dead in Thay its:
15 HD (157 hp); AC 18; To Hit +8; Dam 4d8+7 (25)


So even if you are a low level character you still have an OK chance of hitting it, rather than needing a crit.

Haffrung

#33
June 03, 2014, 01:39:28 PM
Quote from: JeremyR;755026I don't see that as a good thing. If I'm 7th or 8th level I'm going to be awfully disappointed at finding a level full of kobolds.

There's a gazillion monsters for D&D. Why make it so you keep fighting the low level ones that people are tired of, over and over and over?

The combat system is based around a d20. It should use as much of that as possible, while it looks like the opposite is true in 5e...

I get the impression you haven't played 3E or 4E. In those editions, to hit bonuses, damage, and AC scaled up dramatically for both PCs and monsters. At mid-level, getting a +14 to hit on a monster with a 28 AC isn't at all unusual. Bounded accuracy dials the numbers back closer to AD&D levels of number inflation. And just as in AD&D, orcs are going to still pose a legitimate threat to level 6 PCs.
 

Larsdangly

#34
June 03, 2014, 02:30:08 PM
Quote from: jadrax;755104It tends to shift power by level to Damage/hp rather To Hit/AC

So if you look at a 3.5 Iron Golem:
18 HD (129 hp); AC 30; To Hit +23; Dam 2d10+11 (22)

While in Dead in Thay its:
15 HD (157 hp); AC 18; To Hit +8; Dam 4d8+7 (25)


So even if you are a low level character you still have an OK chance of hitting it, rather than needing a crit.

Ah, so you just mean this movement of 5e back towards an AC/to-hit scaling that looks like pre 3E. I was imagining that people were talking about a sliding scale of monster properties, like kobolds with special powerzzz or nerved demons or something.

Brander

#35
June 03, 2014, 07:56:47 PM
Quote from: Larsdangly;755069...The troll who lives under the bridge is a troll whether you are 1st level or 10th.

While I agree with this, it's still not OK to have said troll just pop up and wipe out the party in a series of one-shots (i.e. one shot per character).  They should have options that aren't just backed up by the setting, but also by the rules.  What I'm hearing suggests one of those options might be "run away (possibly wounded) and come back with the militia" if they are totally out-classed.  And maybe even explain why a troll might run from a bunch of low-level militia types rather than eat them all.
Insert Witty Commentary and/or Quote Here

S'mon

#36
June 04, 2014, 04:04:43 AM
Quote from: Brander;755197While I agree with this, it's still not OK to have said troll just pop up and wipe out the party in a series of one-shots (i.e. one shot per character).  

It's ok to say:

"You see a TROLL climbing out from under the bridge! Massively strong, it looks like it could easily rip you apart with a single blow."

If they then wanna go die, fine by me.

jadrax

#37
June 04, 2014, 05:50:21 AM
There is some more monster maths comparison on Raging Owlbear's blog, in particular comparing AD&D 2e and 5th.

Exploderwizard

#38
June 04, 2014, 09:04:15 AM
Quote from: S'mon;755253It's ok to say:

"You see a TROLL climbing out from under the bridge! Massively strong, it looks like it could easily rip you apart with a single blow."

If they then wanna go die, fine by me.

Heck, even before they see it there may be signs of something terrible in the surrounding area. Shredded partially eaten wildlife, large humanoid footprints, etc.

Most monsters, with a few exceptions, are going to have a noticeable environmental impact. Part of the DMs job is to make sure the players have the information that would be obvious to their characters.

" A T-rex!!!  Where the fuck did that come from?"

" Oh yeah I forgot to mention, you have been stumbling across piles of poop almost as tall as the gnome for a couple days now."

:mad:
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

Turanil

#39
June 04, 2014, 10:01:37 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard;755267" A T-rex!!!  Where the fuck did that come from?"
Yeah, a good GM should give such clues ahead of time, or the campaign can quickly become ludicrous. I remember an adventure, where our players were exploring the narrow corridors of a dungeon, opening doors and progressing forward. So we stop at the door, listen, open the lock, etc... And then, upon opening the door right behind there is a gorgon charging at us. It was the most ridiculous encounter ever. All the DM was able to answer was: "No it's normal: I just rolled on the random encounters table..." :banghead:
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#40
June 09, 2014, 01:18:48 PM
Quote from: Turanil;755277Yeah, a good GM should give such clues ahead of time, or the campaign can quickly become ludicrous. I remember an adventure, where our players were exploring the narrow corridors of a dungeon, opening doors and progressing forward. So we stop at the door, listen, open the lock, etc... And then, upon opening the door right behind there is a gorgon charging at us. It was the most ridiculous encounter ever. All the DM was able to answer was: "No it's normal: I just rolled on the random encounters table..." :banghead:

Ah, Dwimmermount...
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jadrax

#41
June 10, 2014, 02:03:02 PM
Quote from: jadrax;755259There is some more monster maths comparison on Raging Owlbear's blog, in particular comparing AD&D 2e and 5th.

After some posters on Enworld went a bit hypercritical, Raging Owlbear did a follow up post taking more factors into account for those interested.
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