"5e lifetime PHB sales outsell lifetime 3, 3.5, 4"

Omega · August 20, 2016, 05:38:44 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;914095I think part of it was also that RPGNet was one of the only places online that you could have positive discussion of 4E, so when WotC started pretty clearly throwing it under the bus, you saw a similar reaction to the one that many of the 3E-friendly places had to 4E's marketing.

The hilarious part is that WOTC threw 4e under the bus because of RPG.net and the 4e fans. So more aptly RPG.net threw 4e under the bus.

Kyle Aaron · August 20, 2016, 07:05:37 AM

More people are playing D&D? excellent.

I don't like 5e, but it's a family argument.

Teodrik · August 20, 2016, 04:29:08 PM

Quote from: Omega;914244The hilarious part is that WOTC threw 4e under the bus because of RPG.net and the 4e fans. So more aptly RPG.net threw 4e under the bus.

Curious, and I dont really know the backstory here. Could you elaborate on how the purple site had an effect on 4e being thrown under the bus by WotC?

Kyle Aaron · August 20, 2016, 06:29:47 PM

It's just another conspiracy theory, like Pundit's Swine one, where a bunch of geeks on forums get to pretend their opinions matter to big companies.

Armchair Gamer · August 20, 2016, 07:26:01 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;914352It's just another conspiracy theory, like Pundit's Swine one, where a bunch of geeks on forums get to pretend their opinions matter to big companies.

Indeed. I expect staff turnover, disappointing sales (not necessarily bad, but almost certainly falling off faster than expected), loss of market share to Pathfinder, and Mearls' conversion to a more OSR mindset had more to do with it.

And WotC always throws the last edition under the bus. That is the most consistent part of their marketing, followed closely by nostalgia for the Gygaxian Age.

Doom · August 20, 2016, 08:37:14 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;914357Indeed. I expect staff turnover, disappointing sales (not necessarily bad, but almost certainly falling off faster than expected), loss of market share to Pathfinder, and Mearls' conversion to a more OSR mindset had more to do with it.

And WotC always throws the last edition under the bus. That is the most consistent part of their marketing, followed closely by nostalgia for the Gygaxian Age.

I dunno, 4e died SO fast, though. Essentials essentially nuked the books that came out less than a year earlier, really pissing off the faithful. I saw hobby shops with stacks of 4e books that simply stopped moving. They had lots of books, the sales were there then...they weren't. I doubt the Purple Pusssack really had much to do with it, and strongly suspect WoTC's own mishandling of 4e basically from the start led to WoTC's deciding on a mercy killing.

Harlock · August 20, 2016, 08:41:06 PM

Quote from: Doom;914376I dunno, 4e died SO fast, though. Essentials essentially nuked the books that came out less than a year earlier, really pissing off the faithful. I saw hobby shops with stacks of 4e books that simply stopped moving. They had lots of books, the sales were there then...they weren't. I doubt the Purple Pusssack really had much to do with it, and strongly suspect WoTC's own mishandling of 4e basically from the start led to WoTC's deciding on a mercy killing.

Might there have been such a falloff in sales, or at least a very sluggish sales the opening months compared to what WotC expected for a new core ruleset, that they felt announcing the Next, opening the playtesting, and being very vocal about killing 4th was their way of at least trying to keep people interested and hopeful about the D&D brand? Was it a measure to stop the bleeding, as it were?

Omega · August 20, 2016, 08:48:48 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;914357And WotC always throws the last edition under the bus. That is the most consistent part of their marketing, followed closely by nostalgia for the Gygaxian Age.

Not really. AD&D is in a way OD&D with many Dragon and Strategic Review articles compiled into one book and oft embellished on. 2e isnt so different from AD&D that its incompatible. They mostly just juggled a few things. Same with O/B/BX/BECMI/RC. Its not until WOTC comes along that we get this insane drive to make each new edition incompatible with the last so they can bleed just one more fan for a re-buy.

Armchair Gamer · August 20, 2016, 08:51:10 PM

Opening sales weren't the issue--the first print run, which was larger than 3E's, sold out in pre-order. But I do suspect sales dropped precipitously for a variety of reasons, and after the market for Essentials disappeared out from under it and no one who really loved 4E was left at WotC, they decided to take a few pages in marketing from Paizo (the open playtest) and let hunger for new D&D product build for a while.

Armchair Gamer · August 20, 2016, 08:53:00 PM

Quote from: Omega;914379Not really. AD&D is in a way OD&D with many Dragon and Strategic Review articles compiled into one book and oft embellished on. 2e isnt so different from AD&D that its incompatible. They mostly just juggled a few things. Same with O/B/BX/BECMI/RC. Its not until WOTC comes along that we get this insane drive to make each new edition incompatible with the last so they can bleed just one more fan for a re-buy.

That's why I specified WotC.

TSR handled things quite differently, with 1E product kept in print and supported in DRAGON for several years.

Doom · August 20, 2016, 09:47:25 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;914381That's why I specified WotC. TSR handled things quite differently, with 1E product kept in print and supported in DRAGON for several years.

Wow, for a second there I was actually agreeing with Omega. But, you're right, TSR's "hot new edition" didn't necessarily mean all the old stuff was supposed to be burned, and the ashes sold to pay for the new edition's books.

Omega · August 20, 2016, 11:17:39 PM

Quote from: Doom;914387Wow, for a second there I was actually agreeing with Omega. But, you're right, TSR's "hot new edition" didn't necessarily mean all the old stuff was supposed to be burned, and the ashes sold to pay for the new edition's books.

Right. And 0-2e/o to RC remained relatively backwards compatible. Gygax even stated that he warned WOTC about this.

Harlock · August 20, 2016, 11:38:28 PM

Quote from: Omega;914393Right. And 0-2e/o to RC remained relatively backwards compatible. Gygax even stated that he warned WOTC about this.

That's why I am so grateful for the OGL and the OSR movement. I actually have more available (like way more, and a lot of it free or dirt cheap!) as a player of those aforementioned systems now than I did when TSR was publishing D&D. As much as I would like WotC to publish a backward compatible system and maybe even reprint some of the old stuff, things are pretty good where I standing.

estar · August 21, 2016, 10:02:49 AM

Quote from: Omega;914379Its not until WOTC comes along that we get this insane drive to make each new edition incompatible with the last so they can bleed just one more fan for a re-buy.

I think 4e is the exception out of the punch. Afterall the OSR did manage to coax OD&D, AD&D, and B/X out of the d20 SRD. Or another way of looking at it if you don't use feats and skills and allow character arbitrary take levels from other classes what is left is pretty close to how classic D&D was played.

estar · August 21, 2016, 10:03:34 AM

Quote from: Omega;914379Its not until WOTC comes along that we get this insane drive to make each new edition incompatible with the last so they can bleed just one more fan for a re-buy.

I think 4e is the exception out of the punch. Afterall the OSR did manage to coax OD&D, AD&D, and B/X out of the d20 SRD. Or another way of looking at it if you don't use feats and skills and allow character arbitrary take levels from other classes what is left is pretty close to how classic D&D was played.

4e was the exception to the whole thing.