"5e lifetime PHB sales outsell lifetime 3, 3.5, 4"

estar · September 01, 2016, 09:28:15 AM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;916384And really, what do you all think the OSR really is? A bunch of people who think that their way of playing is/was 'the right way it was done back then' and wanted to share that with potentially like-minded people. The fact that in some places it's become something like a cult only reinforces my belief.

Horseshit, show me where it is a cult.

Dimitrios · September 01, 2016, 10:11:22 AM

Quote from: CRKrueger;916566"Surveys may say people want change. The proof is the customers dont." is just one of those False Common Wisdom things that gets bandied about without thinking too hard. If I play in your campaign for 10 years it's because your campaign is good, if I leave it's because it's not. Neither has anything to do with any specific "desire for change".

Right. The fact that 3e, a major overhaul of the system, was enthusiastically received by the majority of gamers and ushered in a new golden age for D&D doesn't exactly support the contention that we're a bunch of stick-in-the-muds who refuse to try anything new. When I started to move away from 3e (first to Castles and Crusades and then to AD&D and OSR stuff) it was because of issues that we noticed after a few years of playing, not because 3e wasn't the Pure Primordial True D&D.

Willie the Duck · September 01, 2016, 01:03:07 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;916563The OSR can't just be people who said, "You know what, 3,3.5,4 they made a whole bunch of changes. There was nothing really wrong with the older game, hey, let's still play it." There always has to be the "right way it was done back then" bullshit, the "OSR Taliban" or "D&D Talmud" crap, the "Gygaxian Worship" horseshit,

So if I am reading this correctly, you are upset the instead of the OSR simply being a fandom of a specific style of gaming and rules which support it, it instead seems to be a form of tribalism, complete with loyalty oaths and a sense of superiority towards those outside of ones own tribe? Correct?

Quoteall the petty little sneering dismissals Gamers need to use to distinguish themselves as a higher form of geek.

Well yes. That's true and will always be the case. Since nothing makes gamers happier than alienating those who we should be seeking as allies. Rome has us surrounded and is starving us out. Nothing better to do than break into each other's grain stores and burn them. :-P

crkrueger · September 01, 2016, 01:35:03 PM

Quote from: Willie the Duck;916593So if I am reading this correctly, you are upset the instead of the OSR simply being a fandom of a specific style of gaming and rules which support it, it instead seems to be a form of tribalism, complete with loyalty oaths and a sense of superiority towards those outside of ones own tribe? Correct?

No...railing against the idiotic narrative that the OSR is some form of grumpy old bastard tribal cult worshipping Gygax and consulting the old texts like some Talmudic Taliban.

That's just the K&KA.

estar · September 01, 2016, 01:58:45 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;916598That's just the K&KA.

Grumpy yes talmudic not so much. That occurs over on the OD&D discussion Forum and the Ruins of Mirkhill forum. And those two are probably the most polite out the entire OSR.

Also K&KA has mellowed out considerably over the years.

Teodrik · September 01, 2016, 02:39:20 PM

Talking about grumpy tribalist OSR crowd. Man you should've seen the FORGE people on this side of the pond when OSR became cool amongst the indie game purists , and them later discovering the "Old School Manifesto"... and proclaimed Raggi the One True Lord and Saviour just months after having raged againt the "offensive sexism" of LotFP. And people claiming "You know B/X D&D is not TRUE D&D, according to The Manifesto, TRUE D&D don't have spot checks".
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Harlock · September 01, 2016, 09:37:11 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;916563Directed at...The concept of..."A bunch of people who think that their way of playing is/was 'the right way it was done back then' and wanted to share that with potentially like-minded people."

No one can like or dislike anything anymore, motive is always suspect. Yeah there's grumpy old bastards, and there's fashionable hipsters, and then there's everyone in between. Hell, even the groggiest of grognards, Old Geezer himself, has played Dungeon World.

The OSR can't just be people who said, "You know what, 3,3.5,4 they made a whole bunch of changes. There was nothing really wrong with the older game, hey, let's still play it." There always has to be the "right way it was done back then" bullshit, the "OSR Taliban" or "D&D Talmud" crap, the "Gygaxian Worship" horseshit, all the petty little sneering dismissals Gamers need to use to distinguish themselves as a higher form of geek.

Preach it. It's the thing I hate most about our shared hobby; people thinking their game, their style, their choices are better because that's what they prefer and by golly it must be better for everyone else. People can't seem to leave each other alone and support their choices, instead they have to criticize everyone who is different.

Omega · September 01, 2016, 10:29:29 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;916566I dunno, look at the industry, the success of 5th and tell me that the "Proof" is that customers don't want change. FFG didn't repackage West End Games' d6 system for Star Wars - doesn't really seem to be hurting them, does it?

There are people who play one game only, there are people who try every new game.

"Surveys may say people want change. The proof is the customers dont." is just one of those False Common Wisdom things that gets bandied about without thinking too hard. If I play in your campaign for 10 years it's because your campaign is good, if I leave it's because it's not. Neither has anything to do with any specific "desire for change".

When the surveys say what they want, and only when they want it. Yes. We've seen this used time and again.

RPGPundit · September 05, 2016, 09:39:34 AM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;916156OK, two things. First, I have to ask, if that's why 4e failed, then why did 1e-2e AD&D do so well? Both editions were made and published by people who hated D&D. And second, Mike Mearls hates D&D? Really? This is news to me. He had a big hand in making 4e.

Mike Mearls doesn't hate D&D. He wasn't behind the 4e design, by the time he was in charge it was already a done thing. And the people I was referring to as 'despising D&D' were the Forge gang. I think you know that, though.

1e was Gygax. He didn't hate D&D. 2e was created at the time that TSR was being run by someone who didn't give a fuck about D&D one way or the other, but the people who actually designed 2e's rules didn't hate D&D. 2e's eventually failings (not really as a rule-set but as a product) were due to the work of said person who didn't give a fuck about D&D and who had zero ideas and contempt for gamers.

Omega · September 06, 2016, 06:50:21 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit;9172102e's eventually failings (not really as a rule-set but as a product) were due to the work of said person who didn't give a fuck about D&D and who had zero ideas and contempt for gamers.

Oh Loraine had ideas. They just happened to be ideas to line her pockets specifically. Not TSRs. First thing she did when taken on to help TSR was give herself a pay raise. She used TSRs printing to put out a Buck Rogers coffee table compilation that she got the royalties on from TSR. She allmost certainly got the royalties on the two BR RPGs, PC games, comics and novels as well.