5E DMs/Players status check: Still liking it?

rawma · June 25, 2015, 10:11:34 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;838088You forgot this is rpgsite no matter what is said another has already gone through that very thing with a completely different outcome dozens of times already.

See that's the problem with "tactics" on the internet.

So ... your argument is that the only possible result is a TPK by the CR3 caster against the 4th level party, because here on the forum every possible different outcome exists, and therefore only one outcome is possible.

Quote from: rawma;838015Do you and Doom ever read the published products?

Quote from: Sommerjon;838088Yes.

Evidently not.

Spoiler

QuoteStrange how you are only quoting part of their description. Them there other parts ain't making them look so nice. How convenient for you.

If you mean the description of the Skyweavers specifically ("Skyweavers brim with rage and desire" and "thrill with the rush of releasing raw elemental energy"), I didn't view it as relevant for a group whose leader is a Feathergale Knight, a fop who is in denial about his degree of decadence and corruption; you did read the part where initiates to the cult gain what they seek but lose their free will? And the Feathergale Society is secretly dedicated to Yan-C-Bin; attacking rampantly kind of blows their cover and their self-image as "aerial enthusiasts". With no indication that the air cult is in disarray, I don't expect a mutiny, so the attitude of the non-leaders is unimportant. But if they were that violent, I would expect that after flying 40 miles in a non-barren region, the attack-anyone-on-sight skyweavers would be out of lightning bolts.

QuoteHas squat to do with a random river travels encounters.

I'm quoting for the attitude of the air cultists. If they're not instantly murderous in their own stronghold, why would they be, near a river 40 miles away?

QuoteOh look. All of them have deception as a way to gain entrance. Your point?

Obviously way, way over your head.

QuoteOh, I see. NPCs have to parley How unimaginative.

Where did that come from? My point was that 3rd level characters faced with unknown humanoids on hippogriffs and vultures probably shouldn't start the fight. I would be unhappy if my DM gave no indication that the river area is more dangerous to the 3rd level party than the nearby hills. But your attitude that NPCs have to attack is really the gold standard for unimaginative.

QuoteSorry the aarakocra are over 50 miles away from the river travels. I guess you could have aarakcocra always shadow air cultists, just in case.

Yeah, you didn't read it. Aarakocra scouts are one line above the air cult skyriders in the River Travels encounter chart, and are described on the same page: they "attack those who appear to be elemental cultists. Otherwise the aarakocra might be helpful." So obviously some can be in the vicinity. Unless it's also your unimaginative opinion that one and only one random encounter is allowed at a time and that you'll be arrested if you soften the nastiest random encounter on the table by throwing in some potential allies.

QuoteNot complaining about the encounter. It is an encounter that a group can go against.

"I am looking at their published products. PotA is silly about it. 1d4 CR3 spellcasters on flying mounts no less. That is an encounter a 3rd lvl group can go up against. Luckily they don't have fireball, they gots lightning bolts. If played the way they suggest, they ain't stopping to parley. They be killing you and taking your stuff." isn't complaining?

DMs have a lot of latitude. "Place an encounter in the range that fits the story you want. Every encounter need not be a confrontation." (page 30) - so explicit permission to make it what you want is given. Rigging it for the benefit of the story you want is too much for me, but I'm OK with non-confrontation or sub-optimal tactics for over-powered encounters if the role-playing justifies it. With your style, nobody should make it through Thundertree in the Starter Set: that's a 3rd level party meeting a Young Green Dragon.

Totaling the XP for the various River Travels encounters, this one is 1300-4000XP depending on the number of skyweavers; the only other encounter that averages higher than that minimum is the Water Elemental (1800XP), and no other maxes out at the average XP of that encounter - even before considering that spellcasters against low level parties are underrated by CR. So I would believe that the table was meant to have air cult scouts there (900 to 2250 XP).

Sommerjon · June 26, 2015, 03:06:43 AM

Quote from: rawma;838113So ... your argument is that the only possible result is a TPK by the CR3 caster against the 4th level party, because here on the forum every possible different outcome exists, and therefore only one outcome is possible.

No. Possible different outcome exists, therefore I gives a fuck about your "tactics".

Quote from: rawma;838113Evidently not.

You can say it as much as you want, perhaps it makes you feel better.

Quote from: rawma;838113If you mean the description of the Skyweavers specifically ("Skyweavers brim with rage and desire" and "thrill with the rush of releasing raw elemental energy"), I didn't view it as relevant for a group whose leader is a Feathergale Knight, a fop who is in denial about his degree of decadence and corruption; you did read the part where initiates to the cult gain what they seek but lose their free will? And the Feathergale Society is secretly dedicated to Yan-C-Bin; attacking rampantly kind of blows their cover and their self-image as "aerial enthusiasts". With no indication that the air cult is in disarray, I don't expect a mutiny, so the attitude of the non-leaders is unimportant. But if they were that violent, I would expect that after flying 40 miles in a non-barren region, the attack-anyone-on-sight skyweavers would be out of lightning bolts.

I'm talking about the whole Feathergale Knight Entry + the entry on the Howling Hatred Cultists. I'm not cherry picking certain parts.

Quote from: rawma;838113I'm quoting for the attitude of the air cultists. If they're not instantly murderous in their own stronghold, why would they be, near a river 40 miles away?

The attitude of, we are trying to hide our true selves behind a mask of civility?
The concept that the elemental cults are batshit crazy fuckers?
The whole goddamn book is about the elemental cults attacking the valley.
Yet for some dumb reason you full stop at they're not instantly murderous in their own stronghold and apply that to everywhere.

Quote from: rawma;838113Obviously way, way over your head.

Air Cult "Peaceful visitors who approach openly are welcome", page 46.
Water Cult "If the characters approach openly and politely ask for admittance for almost any plausible reason, the cultists welcome them", page 52
Earth Cult "Recruit or Members?" page 60.
Fire Cult "Scarlet Moon Hall" page 69.
See they all are trying to appear as something they are not, reason why the welcome the characters.

Quote from: rawma;838113Where did that come from? My point was that 3rd level characters faced with unknown humanoids on hippogriffs and vultures probably shouldn't start the fight. I would be unhappy if my DM gave no indication that the river area is more dangerous to the 3rd level party than the nearby hills. But your attitude that NPCs have to attack is really the gold standard for unimaginative.

Terrain dictates.
Giant Vultures in 5e are a joke.
Feathergale Knight's ranged weapon is a spear. Yawn.
And you keep saying hippogriffs, they are only mentioned being in the stables of Feathergale Spire, they are never used.

Quote from: rawma;838113Yeah, you didn't read it. Aarakocra scouts are one line above the air cult skyriders in the River Travels encounter chart, and are described on the same page: they "attack those who appear to be elemental cultists. Otherwise the aarakocra might be helpful." So obviously some can be in the vicinity. Unless it's also your unimaginative opinion that one and only one random encounter is allowed at a time and that you'll be arrested if you soften the nastiest random encounter on the table by throwing in some potential allies.

I guess you could have aarakcocra always shadow air cultists, just in case.
No it would be smarter to change the air cultist encounter for something else then to plop more and more encounters into one grand event.

Quote from: rawma;838113"I am looking at their published products. PotA is silly about it. 1d4 CR3 spellcasters on flying mounts no less. That is an encounter a 3rd lvl group can go up against. Luckily they don't have fireball, they gots lightning bolts. If played the way they suggest, they ain't stopping to parley. They be killing you and taking your stuff." isn't complaining?

No that was in response to your bit about cherry picking.
They have multiple encounters like that for 3&4 lvl groups in PotA

Quote from: rawma;838113DMs have a lot of latitude. "Place an encounter in the range that fits the story you want. Every encounter need not be a confrontation." (page 30) - so explicit permission to make it what you want is given. Rigging it for the benefit of the story you want is too much for me, but I'm OK with non-confrontation or sub-optimal tactics for over-powered encounters if the role-playing justifies it. With your style, nobody should make it through Thundertree in the Starter Set: that's a 3rd level party meeting a Young Green Dragon.

IDK, we 3 manned that Dragon encounter.
The group is currently lvl 5 just got done taking out Riverguard Keep. Gained entry by subterfuge, btw. They spent almost a month inside the Keep before attacking. On the way to the Keep at lvl5 rolled that skyweaver encounter, ignored it.

Omega · June 26, 2015, 08:15:24 PM

Back on topic.

The errata notes on the WOTC site for the errata PDF indicate that 5e is into its 3rd print run. That would seem to indicate that the game is doing pretty good then.

QuoteThe eagle-eyed Sam Simpson, a member of our customer service team, noticed that the document released on June 10 missed a few details that appear in the third printing of the Player's Handbook. As a result, we've updated the document to version 1.1 to be truly comprehensive.

rawma · June 26, 2015, 08:43:56 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;838143No. Possible different outcome exists, therefore I gives a fuck about your "tactics".

The point of tactics is not certainty but to improve the odds. Carry on with your tactic of complaining that encounters are too hard.

QuoteI'm talking about the whole Feathergale Knight Entry + the entry on the Howling Hatred Cultists. I'm not cherry picking certain parts.

Quoting relevant parts is not cherry picking; the additional parts don't override the parts I quoted.

QuoteThe attitude of, we are trying to hide our true selves behind a mask of civility?
The concept that the elemental cults are batshit crazy fuckers?
The whole goddamn book is about the elemental cults attacking the valley.
Yet for some dumb reason you full stop at they're not instantly murderous in their own stronghold and apply that to everywhere.

The attacks are not openly made (at the point where the PCs are 3rd level). And 40 miles away is not far away, and any witness is going to associate attacks from giant vulture riders with the aerial enthusiasts who train them.

If you want to play a game where everybody, PC and NPC, attacks instantly without any tactics, that's up to you. The published adventure does not force anyone else to do so.

QuoteTerrain dictates.

Dictates what? That the player characters must attack? That the Feathergale Knight must attack? Both sides? All without using any tactics? :rolleyes:

QuoteThey have multiple encounters like that for 3&4 lvl groups in PotA

Where? The skyweavers are the only such random encounter, and only in the river vicinity, and I don't see any other instances before the party should have leveled up.

QuoteIDK, we 3 manned that Dragon encounter.
The group is currently lvl 5 just got done taking out Riverguard Keep. Gained entry by subterfuge, btw. They spent almost a month inside the Keep before attacking. On the way to the Keep at lvl5 rolled that skyweaver encounter, ignored it.

You seem to have no point except inconsistent gotchas that collapse at the first scrutiny. The adventure specifically authorizes the DM powers that your group used; not every encounter need be a confrontation.

Sommerjon · June 27, 2015, 01:20:38 AM

Quote from: rawma;838284The point of tactics is not certainty but to improve the odds. Carry on with your tactic of complaining that encounters are too hard.

Again I am not complaining. This may be hard for you to understand. I am agreeing with Doom that according to WotC a 5lvl spellcaster is a CR3.

Quote from: rawma;838284Quoting relevant parts is not cherry picking; the additional parts don't override the parts I quoted.

lmao. This is precious.
You ignoring parts of the entries for the howling hatred cult and feathergale knights, is in no way cherry picking. :rolleyes:

Doom talking about a specific time in the game where the spells of NPCs outclass the party is cherry picking. :rolleyes:

Quote from: rawma;838284The attacks are not openly made (at the point where the PCs are 3rd level). And 40 miles away is not far away, and any witness is going to associate attacks from giant vulture riders with the aerial enthusiasts who train them.

If you want to play a game where everybody, PC and NPC, attacks instantly without any tactics, that's up to you. The published adventure does not force anyone else to do so.

You roll for random encounters 4 times a day while out and about in the dessarin valley. That would seem to indicate you roll for an encounter 4 times a day while out in the wilderness of the dessarin valley.
Perhaps you start right at red larch and follow the railroad, more power to you.
My group started in Waterdeep and went north. They had 3 encounters before they even got to Red Larch.
Early Travels cultist encounters are called : Air Cult Scouts, Water Cult Marauders, Earth Cult Robbers, Fire Cult Raiders.
That is some pretty aggressive naming of people who want to parley.

40+ miles is the closest the river is to the spire, What happens if the encounter is just outside of Womford, you know 90 miles away or near Yartar 180 miles away.
Why would the cultists leave witnesses?

Quote from: rawma;838284Dictates what? That the player characters must attack? That the Feathergale Knight must attack? Both sides? All without using any tactics? :rolleyes:

Means that every encounter is unique.
First time the group encountered Air Cult Scouts was in the middle of the night. What do you think happened?

Quote from: rawma;838284Where? The skyweavers are the only such random encounter, and only in the river vicinity, and I don't see any other instances before the party should have leveled up.

And you accuse me of not reading.:rolleyes:
Best part, I already mentioned the encounter in this thread.

Quote from: rawma;838284You seem to have no point except inconsistent gotchas that collapse at the first scrutiny. The adventure specifically authorizes the DM powers that your group used; not every encounter need be a confrontation.

You haven't mentioned a goddamn thing that collapses anything I have said. You've been cherry picking parts of the module to fit your narrative and ignore the rest.

How many encounters against Cultists should be confrontations then? You infer of having the number.

rawma · June 27, 2015, 01:55:46 AM

Quote from: Sommerjon;838313I am agreeing with Doom that according to WotC a 5lvl spellcaster is a CR3.

I guess I shouldn't expect you to read my posts when you haven't read a book that you might even have paid money for.

Sommerjon · June 27, 2015, 10:56:31 AM

Quote from: rawma;838317I guess I shouldn't expect you to read my posts when you haven't read a book that you might even have paid money for.

Keep saying "no you didn't" all you want.

You accuse others of cherry picking, then to suit your narrative you cherry pick.

cranebump · June 27, 2015, 11:08:26 AM

When this thread started I sorta liked 5E. Not anymore...

rawma · June 27, 2015, 11:58:29 AM

Quote from: Sommerjon;838347You accuse others of cherry picking, then to suit your narrative you cherry pick.

When Doom makes absolute statements about caster supremacy, it's a universal statement; choosing the most favorable situation to support it is cherry picking. What level party would do as badly against the CR6 level 9 mage in the Monster Manual? In all of the N+epsilon level caster versus Nth level party, 5 versus 4 is the best for the caster. And then he adds other favorable assumptions, like initiative. So, cherry picking.

Presenting counterexamples to a universal statement is not cherry picking.

With regards to your statements, I still have no idea what you're trying to say, since you contradict yourself constantly.

Quote from: cranebump;838349When this thread started I sorta liked 5E. Not anymore...

It's a lot more fun to play than to argue about.

Sommerjon · June 27, 2015, 12:43:20 PM

Quote from: rawma;838354When Doom makes absolute statements about caster supremacy, it's a universal statement; choosing the most favorable situation to support it is cherry picking. What level party would do as badly against the CR6 level 9 mage in the Monster Manual? In all of the N+epsilon level caster versus Nth level party, 5 versus 4 is the best for the caster. And then he adds other favorable assumptions, like initiative. So, cherry picking.

No he was giving his opinion. He dug his heels in when people started to pile on. Their refutes were nothing but "tactics".

Quote from: rawma;838354With regards to your statements, I still have no idea what you're trying to say, since you contradict yourself constantly.

Prove it.

Votan · June 27, 2015, 12:49:43 PM

Quote from: rawma;838354When Doom makes absolute statements about caster supremacy, it's a universal statement; choosing the most favorable situation to support it is cherry picking. What level party would do as badly against the CR6 level 9 mage in the Monster Manual? In all of the N+epsilon level caster versus Nth level party, 5 versus 4 is the best for the caster. And then he adds other favorable assumptions, like initiative. So, cherry picking.

That was my worry as well. A fifth level party versus a sixth level wizard plays very differently (counter-spell, fireball, action surge with 2 attacks per round). Adding loss of initiative (or surprise) is odd with a wizard (not usually a stealthy monster) versus a party that you would expect to have a scout in (e.g. trained perception). These sorts of things can play havoc with the guideline CR in the book.

In general terms, casters have weakened a lot. Spells no longer scale by level, much (some exceptions), and require higher level slots for stronger effects. The main exceptions (cantrips) aren't leaps and bounds stronger. Casters have many few high level spell slots (a 20th level wizard has only 1 8th and 9th level spells -- with no attribute bonus spells this is significant). The capping of casting stats at 20 makes the super-high DC spell strategy work less well.

It is not perfect but extremely strong spell casters have been an issue for the history of the game (with the possible exception of 4E). 5E solves the problem differently than AD&D (where a lot of it was mostly spell interruption, with a little bit of extra risk on key spells). Spell interruption could be frustrating and led to strange arms races (my wizard is in disguise). Plus, it was often ignored in practice -- which isn't an issue with the rules set balance so much as good design is to not use often disliked or disregarded rules as key balance points.

I don't want to say that 5E handles magic perfectly. It does not. But it does attempt to make the classes more balanced.

Omega · June 27, 2015, 02:15:16 PM

I think what rubs some the wrong way, even me, is that the handling of the balance was a little heavy handed. Cantrips being the most glaring. Even with their various limiters. They still so a fair amount of damage depending on the situation and what you have loaded. But aside from the various perks of some of the cantrips like slowing. They match up overall to what a fighter can output with judicious weapon selection. And the fighter can outperform a cantrip if they really focus on pure assault.

But we have overall gone from Gandalf or Merlin to Doctor Strange or Zatanna.

Christopher Brady · June 27, 2015, 03:55:27 PM

Quote from: Omega;838365I think what rubs some the wrong way, even me, is that the handling of the balance was a little heavy handed. Cantrips being the most glaring. Even with their various limiters. They still so a fair amount of damage depending on the situation and what you have loaded. But aside from the various perks of some of the cantrips like slowing. They match up overall to what a fighter can output with judicious weapon selection. And the fighter can outperform a cantrip if they really focus on pure assault.

But we have overall gone from Gandalf or Merlin to Doctor Strange or Zatanna.

Gandalf wasn't very wizard-like in the first place, but at higher levels in AD&D 2e, casters became Dr. Strange anyway, so I'm not sure why starting earlier is any more odd.

Omega · June 28, 2015, 12:02:45 AM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;838372Gandalf wasn't very wizard-like in the first place, but at higher levels in AD&D 2e, casters became Dr. Strange anyway, so I'm not sure why starting earlier is any more odd.

In AD&D and even BX you could not effectively cast magic all day. You could not fire off a d10 flame bolt round after round. Your ammo was limited.

In 2e you had 4 1st level spells at level 10, 5 level 20.

Votan · June 28, 2015, 12:38:38 AM

Quote from: Omega;838365But we have overall gone from Gandalf or Merlin to Doctor Strange or Zatanna.

This is a very good point. It isn't necessarily bad: Doctor Strange can adventure quite nicely with Wolverine and Spider Man. But it isn't to everyone's taste.