The Tiny Font! No kidding!! First time I actually got eyestrain looking at a book.

My group concensus is that 5e isn't fully fleshed out. We want more archetypes, more backgrounds, more optional sub-systems. Sure we could Rule Zero it all...

Or we could just play with a different ruleset. We've chosen the latter. Still like 5e, just want WotC to cook up a little more to go with it.

Quote from: Omega;836058We will enjoy this lull in the shelling while we can comrade.

God the tiny font! Not as bad as the near microfiche White Wolf used on one of their sideline games but for fucks sake people! Then there is the numerous "see XYX"
IE: Snake: Poisonous: see Creature Statistics. > Creature Statistics: 304-311 > go leaf through all of Appendix D: Creature Statistics till you find it! arrrgh! Why did they even clutter the index with the entry then?

Having a class or widget not play out as you expected is probably fairly common. Though a tiny bit silly to carry over into a new game. Some of the feat changed from Next to 5e seem a little... odd... for example. But easily fixed or lived with. Going into it and expecting the Feats to be 3 or 4e feats though... Personally I still think they should not have been called feats. eh. Such is. I still like how the 5e feats play out as class personalization in 5e and are few and far between. If you even want them.

Kef hasnt taken any, opting for the stat points. Jan took one and is using the rest as stat points. So far I've used all mine for feats building on the theme. Daern and Nox have taken I believe 1 feat and the rest to stats. James went for stats only.

In my groups, I think only one , or two at most, took feats at 4th. The one I'm sure of is the Paladin who took Sentinel. I kind of expect this to change at 8th, though. We'll see. Also of note: nobody has even vaguely considered multi-classing.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836078Also of note: nobody has even vaguely considered multi-classing.

I generally consider attractive multi-classing to be a bug, not a feature.  Since you need to balance all possible class combinations (plus the added flexibility of multiple ability sets), you either end up with some combinations that are too strong (AD&D Fighter/Magic-user) or the median multi-class being too weak.

Quote from: tenbones;836075The Tiny Font! No kidding!! First time I actually got eyestrain looking at a book.

My group concensus is that 5e isn't fully fleshed out. We want more archetypes, more backgrounds, more optional sub-systems. Sure we could Rule Zero it all...

Or we could just play with a different ruleset. We've chosen the latter. Still like 5e, just want WotC to cook up a little more to go with it.

Well the Unearthed Arcanas have gradually added more material. and the Urban Arcana article started the first steps of fleshing out a modern setting.

I'd like to see more class paths. Please god not more classes.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836078In my groups, I think only one , or two at most, took feats at 4th. The one I'm sure of is the Paladin who took Sentinel. I kind of expect this to change at 8th, though. We'll see. Also of note: nobody has even vaguely considered multi-classing.

No one in either group is even vaugly interested in multi-classing. Which is a major point in 5es favour far as I am concerned.

I hate multiclassing, always have.  But I've always had one player always want to multiclass.  5e has not been different for me.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;836093I hate multiclassing, always have.  But I've always had one player always want to multiclass.  5e has not been different for me.

I suppose I've been ambivalent about multiclassing to various degrees.  The 3.x prestige class PC chimeras really put me off.  I felt more positively about it in AD&D. I don't really have an opinion about it in 5e at this point as I haven't seen anyone do it.  It seems that the classes as they stand, along with backgrounds, have been enough to cover everyone in my groups so far.

I'd echo the opinion that I'd much rather see more class options in 5e over additional discrete classes.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836078In my groups, I think only one , or two at most, took feats at 4th. The one I'm sure of is the Paladin who took Sentinel. I kind of expect this to change at 8th, though. We'll see. Also of note: nobody has even vaguely considered multi-classing.

Of the 6 players in our PotA campaign.
Multiclass:  Paladin/Barbarian, Rogue/Druid, Warlock/Fighter*, Rogue/Fighter**.
Versus: Ranger, Ranger*, Bard**, Sorcerer.

red text = dead '*' indicates new character

Quote from: Sommerjon;836153Of the 6 players in our PotA campaign.
Multiclass:  Paladin/Barbarian, Rogue/Druid, Warlock/Fighter*, Rogue/Fighter**.
Versus: Ranger, Ranger*, Bard**, Sorcerer.

red text = dead '*' indicates new character

Interesting! How would you characterize their various reasons for multiclassing? A character concept that didn't quite fit a single class, mechanical reasons, or in game development (e.g. in game mentor or what have you), or something else entirely?

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836156Interesting! How would you characterize their various reasons for multiclassing? A character concept that didn't quite fit a single class, mechanical reasons, or in game development (e.g. in game mentor or what have you), or something else entirely?

I could say it is for 'story' reasons for a couple, but I'll call it what it actually is 99.99999% of the time; Munchkinism

I made it super duper easy fun time for them

Use 5d6(instead of 4d6) arrange to taste.
Have a feat/stat bump at level 1.
Start at level 4.

And they* are still not satisfied.
The Paladin/Barbarian player wants to run around with no armor and have a high AC. Also wants a high movement to catch fleeing creatures more easily.

The Rogue/Druid is Don from another thread.  And Don ALWAYS plays rogue and something else, no matter the system.  He made it 5 days with a cleric/warlock character before calling me and changing it to rogue/druid.  Also needs high movement to run down fleeers.

The Warlock/Fighter* is the new guy in the group.  He's played a bit and from what we can gather (he said it was "D&D") but sure sounds more like a freeform roleplay thing to us.  Anywhits, he pointed to a cardboard cutout of some M:tG character the store has and wanted to play that.  So I suggested Warlock/Fighter.  He wanted to wear armor and cast magic.

The Rogue/Fighter is doing it because duel wielding Fighter.  He is actually going Arcane Trickster.



Truthfully?  They would have a much better time with other game systems(read skilled based ones) then they do with D&D, but D&D is their Binky  

*is the exception.

What ever happened to fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief? Not sexy enough compared to Doomslayer, Spellsworder, Dragonburglar, and Beastlover?

Quote from: Matt;836166What ever happened to fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief? Not sexy enough compared to Doomslayer, Spellsworder, Dragonburglar, and Beastlover?

For me, What happened to fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief is they got old and boring.  I have zero interest in playing fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief.  Why when I get stuck with D&D, I run the game.

Quote from: Matt;836166What ever happened to fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief? Not sexy enough compared to Doomslayer, Spellsworder, Dragonburglar, and Beastlover?

Can't, and definitely NOT speaking for anyone other than me here, but part of the issue is how 'cookie cutter' the Fighter, Cleric and Thieves felt.  Not that there was 'one build to rule them all' sort of way, but how limited the 'options' felt.

Now bear in mind, I'm a coddlebear GM, whose first experience (and several DMs) were girls, who were into fantasy books.  My first ever AD&D 2e game was playing part of a Drow family in the Underdark, and it was less about loot and combat as it was political maneuvering.  And I was 12, so you can imagine how boring that sounded.  Then I started reading Fantasy Novels for real (I had read the original Short Stories of Conan of Cimmeria (As in by Robert E. Howard) by that time, but I hadn't actually dove into the genre.

And the next three games (of which lasted quite a few years each, ah to be that young again...  Nah, not entirely happy times, admittedly.  I could have done without the broken nose) were also run by girls, who were also into Fantasy Novels.  Mercedes Lackey, Elizabeth Moon et al.

So MY D&D gaming was tainted and coloured with expectations based on reading books and short stories.  Unfortunately, D&D is, at it's core, it's very basic kernel a War Game.  It was originally designed for miniatures play, with 'hero' units representing a type of 'character' from real world or fantasy literature, but meant to focus entirely on a single specialty.  Melee Combat, Magic, or what not.

Although admittedly, it's gone through several hands and editions, it still a game about 'military' units doing a specialized role.

The problem lies in that for a lot of the younger set, they no longer have that base, or interest.  D&D is no longer just a subset of geeks and nerds, and is now touching a much wider base.

Here's some 'groups'.

Ever since Japanese Anime has come over to the West, it swept us up in a new way of looking at combat, it's flashier, less realistic, more about 'cool' than actual efficiency, so we have a bunch of gamers who look at all RPGs from that angle.  There's also a lot of interpersonal/inter-character relationships that also crop up.

You have the Readers, now this category is split into several differing types, but you still have the Book and Comic people, which sometimes cross over, some times not, but they still have their own way of seeing Gaming, which is closer to how I grew up, but even then the way they see characters and combat, is much different.  For example, in Comics, even just Action (as opposed to Superhero), you have mook rules, as the heroes can lay flat no name goons with a single punch.  Where as Books tend to prefer stories that have an Epic theme, or single villain culminating into a fight with Sauron at the top of Mount Doom (so to speak.)

And finally, you have the Video Gamers, the ones who actually closer to the original ideal, simply because character 'growth' in the traditional sense, is very much D&D, which as everyone more or less knows, is where most JRPGs and even Western Video RPGs are still based heavily on!  Hell, I can make comparisons to EverQuest and D&D 3e, as the basics of both map REALLY well!  But even then...

Also, you have the 'Special Snowflake' thing that everyone, and I MEAN everyone seems to want to be.  And a fancy title, especially if we're the only one who has it can make all the difference in the world.

At the end of the day, though, aren't they all the same?  Same archetypes, different name.


As a side note, I've always hated the perception that the Fighter is the 'everyman' class.  It's not.  Do you (the general, not anyone specific) have any idea how hard it is to be a decent swordsman?  It takes YEARS of practice and dedication, it's not just something you can pick up in a couple of weeks.

But the Thief/Rogue?  That class IS the everyman.  For example, stealth is less a 'skill' in the traditional sense, like you don't need to be taught, you can, on your own learn how to place your feet, what to look out in terms of making the least amount of noise.  It's something you can learn to do on your own, unlike weapons-work, which if done badly can harm you.  Climbing is more about physical conditioning, being able to lift your own weight, which frankly, ANYONE can learn, yeah, it can be taught, but it can also be self-taught.  If there's ONE skill that needs to actually taught, you could say lock picking, but frankly, in the average D&D Land, unless you have mechanically inclined nations of Dwarves or the like, a good thin dagger blade, and a twist will pop any lock needed.

But that's just me.

Quote from: Sommerjon;836165I could say it is for 'story' reasons for a couple, but I'll call it what it actually is 99.99999% of the time; Munchkinism

I made it super duper easy fun time for them

Use 5d6(instead of 4d6) arrange to taste.
Have a feat/stat bump at level 1.
Start at level 4.

And they* are still not satisfied.
The Paladin/Barbarian player wants to run around with no armor and have a high AC. Also wants a high movement to catch fleeing creatures more easily.

The Rogue/Druid is Don from another thread.  And Don ALWAYS plays rogue and something else, no matter the system.  He made it 5 days with a cleric/warlock character before calling me and changing it to rogue/druid.  Also needs high movement to run down fleeers.

The Warlock/Fighter* is the new guy in the group.  He's played a bit and from what we can gather (he said it was "D&D") but sure sounds more like a freeform roleplay thing to us.  Anywhits, he pointed to a cardboard cutout of some M:tG character the store has and wanted to play that.  So I suggested Warlock/Fighter.  He wanted to wear armor and cast magic.

The Rogue/Fighter is doing it because duel wielding Fighter.  He is actually going Arcane Trickster.



Truthfully?  They would have a much better time with other game systems(read skilled based ones) then they do with D&D, but D&D is their Binky  

*is the exception.

This is the point where a couple of people jump into the thread to tell you you need better players and should lay down a bunch of ultimatums and tabletop players just grow on trees and who cares if it's your friends and etc... :rolleyes:

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;836184This is the point where a couple of people jump into the thread to tell you you need better players and should lay down a bunch of ultimatums and tabletop players just grow on trees and who cares if it's your friends and etc... :rolleyes:

Mayyyyybeee... But on this case nah. Sounds like they are as he described, a bunch of mostly powergamers out for a kill fix and having to houserule heavily to even partially satisfy them. Which isnt bad per-se. But gets really old really fast when you arent in the mood to indulge or forced into it.

On the other hand I will observe that  all of the examples he sited sound pretty weak or could have been done better with one of the class tracks, actually you know role playing, or feats, or backgrounds.

The Paladin/Barbarian. Just play a paladin with oath of vengance, not wear armour, maybe carry over the barbarians fight unarmoured skill as a feat they have to buy. The Fighter/Warlock could be done with the Eldritch Knight for example. The Thief/Druid is the only one that would make sense. A stealth spy in animal form. Though even that could be done with a straight up Druid and some creative use of backgrounds, feats, or carrying over some thief skills as feats or whatever.