5E DMs/Players status check: Still liking it?

Doom · June 06, 2015, 12:49:17 AM

I'm not wild about making wizards even more counterspell-capable, the problem isn't, by a long shot, that wizards don't have enough magic powers.

Yeah, feats are optional...but I'm hard pressed to disallow them. If I saw everyone taking the same feat (like wizards with spells), I'd either toss feats, or just give the "everyone takes it" feats to everyone. Granted, it's a little problematic (only useful against spellcasters you're adjacent to when they're casting, unlike most feats, like shield bash, that work on nigh everything).

I concede any class could get it, and it's still more reasonable than just picking a broken class. What was that joke online, where if you wanted a special ability, you had to start at level one setting up your skills and ability scores, multiclass three different ways, and go through a special quest...or be a wizard and get it for free at level 3. This feats about the same thing...you pay a feat to do in a limited way what a wizard can do for free.

Still, this feat does put the odds under 50% of the wizard successfully casting spells when he's ridiculously vulnerable.

That's funny, all the experts here spending pages trying to come up with something so that a non-counterspell player can reliably save his friends when an evil wizard is casting a spell, and there's a frickin' feat right there...for some reason I thought mage slayer was from an older version of the game. Now the only question is do I give that feat to every humanoid monster, or just the ones that don't cast spells?

I definitely see the dragon cultists, their plans constantly foiled by a party of almost all spellcasters, training an elite force of anti-wizards with this feat. I can see it now, the spellcaster rushes up to the band of monsters, tries to cast Thunderwave and...ka-pow, half a dozen opportunity attacks. Yowza!

Edit: damn, I do use hyperbole alot. By "nigh everything" I really mean "seems like it works well on monsters in my own particular campaign", and nothing more than that. I've already just assumed most monsters (strong humanoids, anyway) have Athletics trained just so that sometimes a monster can stand after a bash.

Greg Benage · June 06, 2015, 01:58:44 AM

Quote from: Doom;835331That's funny, all the experts here spending pages trying to come up with something so that a non-counterspell player can reliably save his friends when an evil wizard is casting a spell, and there's a frickin' feat right there...for some reason I thought mage slayer was from an older version of the game.

LOL. I mentioned it on Page 14. But you were so offended about people "cherry-picking" character abilities, I thought we'd game out the scenario without feats.

You're a piece of work.

Opaopajr · June 06, 2015, 02:46:18 AM

Quote from: Doom;835118Ah, there's your problem right there: you're assuming a 100% chance to hit. My experience with the game is most characters don't hit AC 19 with 100% probability.

It's a mathematical concept called "expected value". If you on average hit for 10 points of damage, and hit 50% of the time, then you expect to deal 5 damage a round. Granted, in a single round battle, expectation is pretty iffy, but when the chance to hit is 50% or so, it's good enough for a sketch (and if you're under 50%, like we are here because you're taking a -5 to hit, expectation is generous in a one round fight). I totally grant this particular barbarian could theoretically one shot the wizard, but he doesn't expect (there's that word again) to do so.

Yes, given the barbarian hits, he expects to kill the mage...but the example you cited gives only a 10% chance of doing so...that's somewhat less than reliable, in my opinion (and, apparently, only my opinion).

No, there's plenty of ways to increase to-hit, along with elements which can screw with NPCs and PCs probabilities. I know all too well about that and know that goes down the rabbit hole. That's build and situational context, which is why I said from the beginning there's too many variables.

I am, and never was, under any confusion about that. I was talking about a straight HP to damage value. One averaged hit from those PCs and its lights out. Mathematically that's true.

Which goes into how many potential factors can go to screwing up M NPC's fireball advantage. Which in turn also deals with why your earlier claim was called out for hyperbole. 5e can be very swingy, and one of the big things is how much stuff undoes other effects.

Yet (for all the 5e things that can mess with each other), as I have agreed with you in the beginning, spell casting interruption is mostly isolated into Counterspell. If you're old school, it can be a very annoying game change. However, the hyperbole on this topic hasn't really helped your argument.

Opaopajr · June 06, 2015, 03:34:04 AM

Quote from: Doom;835123It certainly does, but only if the cleric is immune to fire damage. Otherwise, the cleric could well die (and likely goes to 0) in the first round, as he takes fireball damage, AND takes half fireball damage on top of that. Ouch! Bless is pretty good, but I'm not convinced you're going to cast a 1 minute duration spell "just in case" something happens in the next minute...and I'm also not convinced the cleric is likely to make what could be a DC 27 concentration check...and if he goes to 0, it's a moot point.

Neat, never had a character cast that...probably because of the old "crap, the cleric can die from this" drawback.

Again, you may as well just assume an entire party of Moon Druids...Teifling Moon Duids.

You should use it. Warding Bond is really strong, especially with clerics who know what they're doing. That drawback is not that big of an issue, especially depending on party composition, formation, and Life Domain clerics. Warding Bond + Bless help insure the party, as I myself have done, it frustrates spell nuking like you wouldn't believe. (Well, and I would habitually keep 45' distance because I was cautious. Shipyard's example has bad formation, IMHO. But I believe that was the point.)

One of my best recommendations is stack in on someone you need to keep alive and know will prioritize bringing back up the "undo button." In the Barbarian, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard example the best bet is Warding Bond the Rogue (possibly Thief) and Bless Barbarian, Rogue, Cleric. Rogue is best likely to get high Initiative, pass DEX save. and have Fast Hands to apply Use an Object healing potions as a bonus action. However the Barbarian is a fantastic 2nd choice, as they like DEX for AC to go with Unarmored Defense. You only need 1 HP to keep adventuring.
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Which reminds me about why you seem confused about my comment about the Minotaur. Remember, Sleep is no longer a TPK spell, because there is no such thing as Coup de Grace anymore. It seems like you are forgetting about its high HP, Death Saves, and Conditions, as they change 5e from a lot of old D&D assumptions.

I've seen Death Saves roll 20 at the top of their turn, pop up the downed healer, and have the healer *undo everything* (Life's first Channel Divinity is a bitch!). I had to learn that TPKs aren't TPKs until that last Death Throw. Lay on Hands, Healer feat, and healing spells really throw a monkey wrench into tactics because in this edition PCs routinely bounce back from almost death.

I assume WotC's CR thinking is about how frequent a Minotaur can Instant Death PCs, and thus cost the party Raise Dead. Magic Missile is useful to off an unstable, unconscious PC, but that's a slot and NPC Mages have very low HP to worry about that; they need to AoEs to remove threats now. And Fireball (28 avg failed, Unc has DEX at Disadv) has to be within 5’ to be critical, otherwise it's just another Death Save that may or may not cross Max HP threshold. That Minotaur can Gore charge, which breaks formation, and then move around likely without OAs due to its 10' push and knock prone. Its Gore on an unstable unconscious is a nasty 8d8+4 dmg (40 avg) which averages Instant Deaths just about every 4th lvl except d12 HDs with +2 CON. With 76 HP v. 22 HP, that's more turns to kill at least one PC dead.

Opaopajr · June 06, 2015, 03:56:21 AM

Quote from: Mistwell;835323Here is -ktkenshinx-'s Mage Slayer build from his excellent Grappler's Guide. You don't need most of this, but it's a fun character to play.

Spoiler
The Mage Slayer (Bard/Fighter/Rogue)
Some players just hate Wizards. You don't know what it is about Wizards that you hate, but boy do you hate them. Probably those pointy hats or their scrawny arms. Whatever the reason, when it comes to massacring mages at all levels of the game, accept nothing less than the Mage Slayer grappler. This is an extremely narrow build that, although useful against a variety of enemy types and classes, is at its best against those pesky magic users. There are tons of ways to build an antimage grappler (Wizard with Antimagic Field is another route), but this build will be the most relevant at all levels of the game, and is most likely to give your DMs magic practitioners a serious head/neck/throat ache.

The build functions around the almighty Silence spell, a no-save-allowed way to stop most magic cold. Your main class is College of Lore Bard, which gets you access to an arsenal of mage-murdering spells and gives you the highest possible single grapple checks of any class. It is critical to have high single grapple checks as a Mage Slayer because that initial grapple in the area of Silence is the most important. Once they are stuck there, they just can't do anything. Setting up that Silence will require a few different combinations of features, actions, and spells. As wizards scale up their power, your combos will scale with them. But because each engagement is so resource intensive, the build is heavily dependent on rests in between engagements, That play style might not suit everyone, but for those who want to give mages (and your DM) nightmares, this is the build for you.

As a final note, I emphasize this again: the build really is a single target, mage killing optimization. It's narrow, it's a nightmare for wizards, and it's a bit...strange, as far as grapplers go...

Starting Race: Human
Although you can go Mountain Dwarf in this build, Human is a better option because of how feat intensive the build is, especially at early levels.

Ability Scores: Here's your 27 point buy array assuming shameless optimization choices.
Str: 15 (Human +1 - Show those wimpy Wizards how it's done)
Dex 13 (Required for the Rogue multiclass)
Con 10 (This is a single-target, glass-cannon build. We can't afford to max out HP at the expense of other stas)
Int 8 (Int saves just aren't all that common, and those you do have to worry about shouldn't even work in an area of Silence)
Wis 10 (Never dump this; Wisdom saves tend to govern fear, and you do not want to be frightened as a grappler)
Cha 15 (Human +1 - More Charisma means more Cutting Words attempts)

Fighter 1
Human level 1 feat: Tavern Brawler
As with many grappling builds, start in Fighter to get the Heavy Armor Proficiency without spending a Feat. We get Warcaster both to concentrate on our spells in the fight, and to cast spells while wielding. We are also going to get the Dueling fighting style, and Tavern Brawler so we can grapple after making an attack (we will need that attack eventually to cause damage to trigger Mage Slayer).
Fighter 1 / Bard 1
With Heavy Armor acquired, we go straight for our Bard features/spells at level 3.
Fighter 1 / Bard 2
Fighter 1 / Bard 3
Expertise? Check. Cutting Words? Check. Silence? Check. Enhance Ability? Check. You now have access to your most basic combo. Cast Enhance Ability on yourself before the fight. At the beginning of the fight, walk over to the target and grapple them with advantage. Next turn, cast Silence on the area. We will defnitely do better than that later, but it's only level 4.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4
Level 4 Feat: Mage Slayer
Here's our next piece of the combo. Starting at level 5, you will encounter more situations where enemies have preexisting concentration-based spells before you grapple them. Those often need to go away if you are to win the fight, and Mage Slayer is going to get that done.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 1
To break concentration, we need big damage rolls on a single attack at the start of the fight. Rogue is going to get that done. Level 1 gets you Sneak Attack; you already have Expertise from Bard..
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 2
Cunning Action normally rocks at this level, but you generally won't use it because of Tavern Brawler. We are really going into Rogue to get the next class feature.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Assassinate plus Mage Slayer plus surprise equals impossible concentration saves. Now that we have finished out the Mage Slayer feature tree, we can change our combo to really ruin a mage's day. For your pre-fight buff, you have two options from the Bard 2 spell list. You can either stick with Enhance Ability and use Stealth to approach a target, or you can use Invisibility. Either way, you just want to make sure your target is surprised. Walk up to them and stab them with your improvised weapon short sword; it shouldn't take too much DM convincing to improvise a short sword. The attack will automatically score a critical hit for 6d6+5 damage (2d6 short sword, 4d6 sneak attack, 3 strength, 2 dueling). That assumes no magical buffs that add damage die, and you are already at an expected DC 13 Concentration save that they must make with disadvantage. Then grapple them and hold them in place until next turn when you can Silence.
Fighter 2 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Action Surge. What an imbalanced ability. Now you can do the same combo as above but ALSO cast Silence in the same turn you stab and grapple.
Fighter 3 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Getting to Fighter 3 gets you Battle Master, which will almost always be a Trip Attack applied to your opening stab. It's also an added 2d8 damage (1d8 doubled) on your automatic critical hit, which ups that Con save to DC 17 with disadvantage on the roll. Now your combo looks like this: Sneak up and stab to force a concentration save. As part of that sneak, apply a trip attack to get them prone. Then take a bonus action to grapple off Tavern Brawler. Now Action Surge, drop your improvised Short Sword, and cast Silence.
Fighter 4 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Level 4 Feat: Warcaster, Lucky, Magic Initiate
Bunch of different feat options here. Go Warcaster to guarantee that Silence doesn't get cracked. Go Lucky for an added guarantee on the initial grapple check. Or go Magic Initiate to gain Find Familiar, which you can use to take the Help action on that initial grapple (freeing up your pre-battle spell for Invisibility).
Fighter 5 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Extra Attack is the next evolution of your mage-murdering combo. Now that you have two attacks, you can replace one with a shove attempt, and modify the opening stab with Menacing Attack instead of Trip Attack. Stalk up to your target and take the attack action. Apply Menacing Attack to the stab and force a DC 17 (average) save with dsiadvantage. If they fail the wisdom save on the Menacing Attack, now they have disadvantage for the rest of the turn. Use shove in place of your second extra attack, and grapple with Tavern Brawler as a bonus action. Drop the sword, action surge, cast Silence, and watch your DM and his wizard cry.
Fighter 5 / Bard 5 / Rogue 3
Fighter 5 / Bard 6 / Rogue 3
The big bonus here is Magical Secrets through College of Lore. And boy, there are a lot of options to pick from, so this is a great way to round out your skillset. Two standout options I want to discuss are Blinding Smite and Counterspell. Counterspell is a somatic-only spell that will work even with Silence, and it's the best way to guarantee that your caster is totally locked down. Blinding Smite is a Paladin spell that requires concentration (so no invisibility), but adds 3d8 damage to your attack roll and forces a save to avoid blindness. If you connect with Assassinate on that opening hit and auto crit, your save will be basically impossible to match: an AVERAGE save of DC 31 made with disadvantage. Even if you don't automatically crit, it's still a DC 17 average save with disadvantage. Those are just two options you can take at this level.
From Level 14 onward, I recommend that you continue progressing in Bard to get that level 10 Magical Secrets feature. Then you can paly with those last two levels wherever you want.

One key to this build is beating the scariest spell of them all: Freedom of Movement. It's actually not that hard, but it just requires a combo modification. You will still open with your massive damage spike, still grapple the target with Tavern Brawler, and still shove them with your attack. But instead of casting Silence, you will cast Dispel Magic and try to strip the buff away. The DC is 14, and your bonus will be 3 + 1/2 of your proficency bonus (thanks Jack of all Trades). If you have the presence of mind to Enhance Ability (Charisma) yourself beforehand, you will have advantage on that check. After you remove it, just have a Counterspell ready for the intervening turn to stop anything your opponent tries. Then just Silence at the beginning of your second round.

That description should give you some idea of how narrow this build is, but also how powerful it is at shutting down a single spellcasting target. Despite this narrowness, there are lots of ways to increase your flexibility; Bards have so many useful spells in that regard, and you definitely aren't a shabby grappler even your target isn't a Mage. Just figure out ways to adapt your combo and you will be ready for grappling anyone, whether scrawny-armed and pointed-hatted or not.

Oh my, that's a lot of effort. Or you could cast Silence on a copper, Sneak up and Sleight of Hand it onto their person. Drop it down their shirt, place it in their components pouch, tuck it in their belt or hat...

Who said Bards aren't fun!

Exploderwizard · June 06, 2015, 11:01:22 AM

Quote from: Opaopajr;835359Oh my, that's a lot of effort. Or you could cast Silence on a copper, Sneak up and Sleight of Hand it onto their person. Drop it down their shirt, place it in their components pouch, tuck it in their belt or hat...

Who said Bards aren't fun!

Silencing someone on the sly is rather difficult. The silence effect has a radius and when you approach someone with stealth and everything goes completely silent including any ambient noise, an individual with half a brain will be on high alert.

Being completely silent yourself while sneaking= good.

Trying to sneak within a large silence radius when you get close to someone = bad.

Natty Bodak · June 06, 2015, 11:37:37 AM

Quote from: Opaopajr;835359Oh my, that's a lot of effort. Or you could cast Silence on a copper, Sneak up and Sleight of Hand it onto their person. Drop it down their shirt, place it in their components pouch, tuck it in their belt or hat...

Who said Bards aren't fun!

Unfortunately for that tactic, in 5e Silence is only targetable on an area, not on objects.

Still, Silence and Grapple (or any other speed limiting trick) are quite effective. And even by itself Silence has proven to be valuable in herding casters (e.g. making them step into a self-immolating spot or out of line of sight or just a little closer than they'd like).

Doom · June 06, 2015, 12:40:15 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr;835359Oh my, that's a lot of effort. Or you could cast Silence on a copper, Sneak up and Sleight of Hand it onto their person. Drop it down their shirt, place it in their components pouch, tuck it in their belt or hat...

Who said Bards aren't fun!

There's also the issue that you can't cast silence on a copper piece anymore. And even if you use Silence/Grapple, we've got the "only a spellcaster can stop a spellcaster" problem. Of course you were told that before, and most of your other page of text has also been dissected and shown invalid before also. Seriously, ouch, it's not even worth responding to the other things you say, you're just so far removed.

Doom · June 06, 2015, 03:11:06 PM

Quote from: Greg Benage;835336LOL. I mentioned it on Page 14. But you were so offended about people "cherry-picking" character abilities, I thought we'd game out the scenario without feats.

You're a piece of work.

We've already established the issues at level 4 make enemy spellcasters way too deadly, as nobody(1) will take that feat at level 4 (I've think I've had like 30 level 4ish characters, and nobody's picked that, and do note that quite a few other feats came up and you didn't have a problem with those...).

Funny thing, I've gone back to page 14, and can't even see it, even though I do have a vague recollection of someone mentioning something about it, I just thought it was some optional rule because nobody's used it (it being way too situational for low level play). Sorry if I missed it, no need to be insulting. Again.

But at level 8, maybe, players will take this feat? I haven't seen it yet, mind you (only had eight level 8+ pcs so far), but it does mean that the problems at lower levels might not necessarily extend to higher levels to the point that it becomes "all spellcasters, all the time", which is something. Now, absolutely, I grant that as people become more familiar with 5e, mage slayer will become much more popular as a feat (although it'll often be easier to just be a mage).

(1) Note: this is hyperbole, I'm sure someone, somewhere, took this at level 4. Most players, however, will pick feats that help in as many situations as possible, as opposed to a feat that only works for melee AND only against a spellcaster actually casting a spell.

Natty Bodak · June 06, 2015, 03:57:33 PM

Quotein a world of carrot supremacy, no one ever has, or ever will, take the carrot slayer feat.

This is the sound I imagine the rabbit hole must make as it collapses on itself.

Mistwell · June 06, 2015, 11:19:42 PM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;835325Assuming the DM allows feats, not all do. And if I remember correctly, are an optional choice for the game.

The part you cut responds to what you just said though (so weird you cut it). Grapple + Silence spell works great as well.

Omega · June 07, 2015, 12:50:19 AM

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;835041Often, in a game, the mage is caught in a non-PC-deathtrap room because it's a useful trope to many.

Was in the middle of a ritual to summon a succubus: Boy is he mad you guys spoiled his fun. Remember to loot his spell book!

Working in his lab: Why the hell would he deathtrap his own lab? He probably wouldn't want any minions poking around in there either. Remember to loot the level 5 fireball scroll he was working on.

Having a nice quiet dinner: Being appropriately paranoid he wouldn't have anyone within a quarter mile when he eats. Remember to loot the Periapt of Proof against Poison off him.

Enjoying a soothing bubble bath: Because even stark naked any spellcaster is still armed and dangerous. Remember to loot the Decanter of Endless Water.

Just got done banging a succubus: See bubble bath above for details. Remember to loot the... er... nevermind.

You killed all his minions and defeated all his traps: He is cornered and this is it. Probably has nothing on him other than his spell focus. Jerk.

Omega · June 07, 2015, 12:54:51 AM

Quote from: Doom;835022Tell you what if a poster in good faith says "yeah, my level 3+ wizard never casts mage armor, he just can't spare the spell slot" I'll buy this as at least remotely possible.

Been there, aint cast that. Next.
Irrelevant to my current Warlock. But was the case for the wizard before that.

Omega · June 07, 2015, 01:05:50 AM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;835322I've been tempted to try a home game with this house rule I just came up.

What if we remove Counterspell, but any wizard/caster can burn a spell to Counter any incoming one as a Reaction at a percentage chance.

So an incoming 3rd level one, for example, could be countered with any 3rd, but at say... a 95% success chance, so anything but a 1 on a D20. You throw a Level 2 spell at a level 3, your success chance drops to 90% (failure on a 1-2), so on and so forth.

However, on the flip side, if you want to burn a higher level spell than the one incoming, then you get a 100% success rate.

Yes, it's an extra die roll, but it feels to like in the spirit of D&D magic, which is resource management.

On that note I wonder why Gust of Wind isnt a bonus spell? It would be the perfect counter to Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill attacks.

Doom · June 07, 2015, 01:23:56 AM

Quote from: Omega;835498Been there, aint cast that. Next.
Irrelevant to my current Warlock. But was the case for the wizard before that.

Fascinating, what on earth did you need the level 1 spell slots for?