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5E DMs/Players status check: Still liking it?

Started by danskmacabre, May 25, 2015, 10:45:52 PM

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Doom

#225
Quote from: Opaopajr;835090Warding Bond (1 h, no conc) — often with simultaneous Bless (conc 1 minute) —alone destroys the Fireball example with its DEX saves and damage.

It certainly does, but only if the cleric is immune to fire damage. Otherwise, the cleric could well die (and likely goes to 0) in the first round, as he takes fireball damage, AND takes half fireball damage on top of that. Ouch! Bless is pretty good, but I'm not convinced you're going to cast a 1 minute duration spell "just in case" something happens in the next minute...and I'm also not convinced the cleric is likely to make what could be a DC 27 concentration check...and if he goes to 0, it's a moot point.

QuoteAny party investigating a hostile area would have at least Warding Bond on,

 Neat, never had a character cast that...probably because of the old "crap, the cleric can die from this" drawback.

Again, you may as well just assume an entire party of Moon Druids...Teifling Moon Duids.
(taken during hurricane winds)

A nice education blog.

Sommerjon

Quote from: Christopher Brady;835070You've never been caught unawares?  Ever?

Villains are 'human' too.  They make mistakes, get overconfident or are otherwise flawed.  That's what makes them interesting, even if they're meant to die like dogs.
Sure people have scared me from jumping out of a hiding place, but in tense situations like combat, no I have never been caught unawares.

Sure if the PCs are able to slink all the way through the wizards castle/tower/prison/etc. to finally find him in the throne room/arcane lab/torture chamber/etc.  yeah he would be unawares, but if the PCs are fighting their way through to the throne room/arcane lab/torture chamber/etc. and still catch the wizard unawares = dumb.

I play the opposition as 'human' as I can.
Quote from: One Horse TownFrankly, who gives a fuck. :idunno:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad

Doom

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;835030Jeez, maybe we should all cool it here. :eek:

I sent you some Warhammer Quest stuff basically free of charge didn't I Doom? I may have gotten a little testy, and for that I apologize, but it may be going a bit far to call me a wanker.

My apologies, I thought it was someone else who said the fight was easy because when they tried it the characters made 8 consecutive saving throws. I'm not the one who initially used the word "wankery", for what it's worth.

QuoteWhen he's caught unawares in his throne room/arcane lab/ torture chamber/etc.  Pretty typical D&D scenario.

Oh yeah, the white room isn't too far from the mark (under the assumption of a single level 5 mage)--although many villains give themselves some sort of escape hatch. I really don't see the point of this, all the examples have shown quite clearly that even in the worst case scenario, simply winning initiative has a very reasonable chance of killing multiple characters, because of the objective issues I've raised.
(taken during hurricane winds)

A nice education blog.

Greg Benage

Quote from: Doom;835121And the DM doesn't catch you on bad rules, and you swap around tactics to optimize when errors are pointed out. ;)

At least I caught and corrected my own error. You seem incapable of conceding yours, even when others point them out for you.

QuoteAbsolutely, it's quite possible the mage will get double critted in the first round and not do a point of damage, I've never disputed this.

To restate: It's not "quite possible" but highly probable that at least two PCs will beat M on initiative. In that event, there's a decent chance they take him down before he gets off a spell.

QuoteBut, it's also quite possible the mage will kill two players on the second round, and that's in a worst-case-for-the-mage white room scenario.

LOL. It seemed to me the fireball trap that the PCs can't prepare for and that automatically springs on them before even one of them can act was pretty bad for them! I didn't realize it was a "worst-case-for-the-mage scenario."

Quote...in real scenarios, this is a dangerous encounter.

Well, hey! Back in post #47, you said it was a fact this was a "near-certain TPK." Now it's "dangerous." I guess it would have been a different thread if you'd managed to restrain the hyperbole.

Doom

#229
Quote from: Greg Benage;835132Well, hey! Back in post #47, you said it was a fact this was a "near-certain TPK." Now it's "dangerous." I guess it would have been a different thread if you'd managed to restrain the hyperbole.

I cede the point: it's not a near certain TPK in this white room scenario. I acknowledge that in the worst case scenario for the wizard as given here, you'll probably lose two characters, and you've demonstrated that quite nicely, thank you.

I totally acknowledge "near certain TPK" is always hyperbole in a DnD5e fight. It's always possible to just run away, and essentially no way monsters can reliably get all characters. So, yeah, I kinda thought it was obviously hyperbole, like when some guy says "it's raining cats and dogs", you don't really expect to see domesticated animals falling from the sky.

So, yeah, sure it was hyperbole, like most of your post..and yet I won't spend pages jumping down your throat about each exaggeration. Now can you folks calm down a little?  Geez....

While some will argue that a dozen pages of trying to figure out a technique to stop a 20-40% chance of multiple character deaths in an "easy" encounter even in a white room deathtrap for the evil wizard doesn't demonstrate the encounter to be pretty hard, I'll happily concede that's a matter of opinion.

Edit: crap, I used hyperbole again, by using the word "always" in reference to being able to run away. Please don't hurt me, guys...
(taken during hurricane winds)

A nice education blog.

Sommerjon

Quote from: Doom;835125Oh yeah, the white room isn't too far from the mark (under the assumption of a single level 5 mage)--although many villains give themselves some sort of escape hatch. I really don't see the point of this, all the examples have shown quite clearly that even in the worst case scenario, simply winning initiative has a very reasonable chance of killing multiple characters, because of the objective issues I've raised.
If any PC dies to that white room scenario, they deserve it.
Quote from: One Horse TownFrankly, who gives a fuck. :idunno:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad

Natty Bodak

#231
Quote from: Greg Benage;835132At least I caught and corrected my own error. You seem incapable of conceding yours, even when others point them out for you.



To restate: It's not "quite possible" but highly probable that at least two PCs will beat M on initiative. In that event, there's a decent chance they take him down before he gets off a spell.



LOL. It seemed to me the fireball trap that the PCs can't prepare for and that automatically springs on them before even one of them can act was pretty bad for them! I didn't realize it was a "worst-case-for-the-mage scenario."



Well, hey! Back in post #47, you said it was a fact this was a "near-certain TPK." Now it's "dangerous." I guess it would have been a different thread if you'd managed to restrain the hyperbole.

One has to wonder at what point did the Doom compulsion to "double down" kick in. Was it before the "goalpost relocation attempts" or after the "I'm rubber, you're glue" phase? In the face of so many folks honestly trying to engage, folks who have demonstrated that they are not above calling out corrections to their own contributions, folks willing to put a concrete face/map/flow to the situation to explore the ideas, he just seems so logically hidebound to never concede anything that wasn't done in a non-backhanded way.

Which is why whatever good points he might have had along the way, it's all completely torpedoed by his hyperbole and sarcasm. Maybe it's a lack of self awareness on his part, or just a character flaw (we all have them). Who can say.

To Opa, Greg, Shipyard, Sommerjon and others, good contributions. It didn't matter if there were quibbles with any of them because they honest efforts and made intuitive sense that matched our own actual play experience.
Festering fumaroles vent vile vapors!

Doom

#232
Yes, absolutely, these guys all made good contributions to my point...after 15 pages of attempts, there still isn't any decent way to stop that second fireball from going off, which, hey, is my original point:

1) lots more spells available between long rests than before
2) no decent way (except for "counterspell") to stop spellcasting
3) too much damage
4) multiple spells a round

Together these make spellcasters much stronger than they need to be, and I appreciate your help in reinforcing that point, although your namecalling isn't appreciated.

Do characters deserve to die simply by rolling low on initiative, or by not simply rolling up a moon druid or bear totem barbarian? That's a matter of opinion, but I concede opinions can vary on this sort of thing. Note how I've never doubled down, and I concede as I've done many times in the thread (unlike the guy not arguing in good faith and constantly lobbing insults, which is certain to continue), and note that I didn't propose the white room scenario, that was someone else shifting the goalposts, which, since I am discussing in good faith, I addressed as well to further illustrate the point.

Now, I'll try once again to pull back to the point of the thread: still playing 5e, and while there are some objective issues in spellcasting that are starting to cause problems, there's plenty of fun to be had here.
(taken during hurricane winds)

A nice education blog.

Natty Bodak

Quote from: Doom;835182... although your namecalling isn't appreciated.

That's pretty rich from the guy who brought "idiocy" into what had been a civil disagreement to that point. The golden rule is something toddlers struggle with, and clearly not everyone figures it out even in adulthood.
Festering fumaroles vent vile vapors!

Shipyard Locked

Quote from: Doom;835182Yes, absolutely, these guys all made good contributions to my point...after 15 pages of attempts, there still isn't any decent way to stop that second fireball from going off, which, hey, is my original point.

I believe we actually demonstrated pretty well that your point was overstated and it isn't necessary to have a clear cut "universal spellcasting cock-block maneuver" (players love being on the receiving end of those :rolleyes:) for this scenario to be "fair enough" by 5e's rough* standards.

* In all senses of the word.

Quote from: Doom;835182and note that I didn't propose the white room scenario, that was someone else shifting the goalposts, which, since I am discussing in good faith, I addressed as well to further illustrate the point.

I wasn't shifting the goal posts, I clearly said when I posted the white room that there was a fair chance I'd be proven wrong through it. Also, as I said above, since I don't think the designated "universal spellcasting cock-block maneuver" is necessary given the current evidence, I wasn't aiming for that set of goal posts to begin with.

Quote from: Doom;835182Now, I'll try once again to pull back to the point of the thread: still playing 5e, and while there are some objective issues in spellcasting that are starting to cause problems, there's plenty of fun to be had here.

I'm sorry things got out of hand.

Christopher Brady

Quote from: Doom;835182Now, I'll try once again to pull back to the point of the thread: still playing 5e, and while there are some objective issues in spellcasting that are starting to cause problems, there's plenty of fun to be had here.

I'm with Doom.  Magic is getting a little out of hand, but it's not enough to stop me from enjoying my time with 5e.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

Doom

#236
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;835262I believe we actually demonstrated pretty well that your point was overstated and it isn't necessary to have a clear cut "universal spellcasting cock-block maneuver" (players love being on the receiving end of those :rolleyes:) for this scenario to be "fair enough" by 5e's rough* standards.

Yes, I admitted that "almost certain TPK" in a system where running away is easy is overstated. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa.

I don't think anyone used the "universal cockblock" phrase, although it's worth pointing out it already exists once you hit 5th level ("Counterspell", which has been pretty well agreed as a must-have for players, much like Shield and Misty Step are pretty much in every wizard spellbook--this is a strong hint something is wrong in the design). It was one of the things you saw in Pathfinder; the Rise of the Runelords has like 30 enemy wizards (in this case, I mean "spellcasters") across dozens of encounters. Every single wizard has the same suite of spells, like Dimension Door, Mage Armor, and I can't remember the others, along with a few other spells...but always those same spells. It's a hint there's something overstrong there, honest.

You're correct that players don't like being on the business end of such stuff, but Counterspell is all 5e has to offer, made all the more obnoxious because the non-spellcasting classes get bupkis.

I'm with you, I don't like universal cockblocks, but Counterspell is the only thing PC spellcasters have to concern themselves with (in specific reference to preventing spellcasting as spells are in the process of being cast, I add to prevent excessive confusion).
(taken during hurricane winds)

A nice education blog.

Christopher Brady

I've been tempted to try a home game with this house rule I just came up.

What if we remove Counterspell, but any wizard/caster can burn a spell to Counter any incoming one as a Reaction at a percentage chance.

So an incoming 3rd level one, for example, could be countered with any 3rd, but at say...  a 95% success chance, so anything but a 1 on a D20.  You throw a Level 2 spell at a level 3, your success chance drops to 90% (failure on a 1-2), so on and so forth.

However, on the flip side, if you want to burn a higher level spell than the one incoming, then you get a 100% success rate.

Yes, it's an extra die roll, but it feels to like in the spirit of D&D magic, which is resource management.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

Mistwell

#238
Quote from: Doom;8351822) no decent way (except for "counterspell") to stop spellcasting


The mage slayer feat deals with this just fine.  And it's a good feat in general, and works well with your general grappler builds, which also work well and are fun and flavorful and not boring (I particularly like tavern brawler).  Grappling with the silence spell also works great (and is easy to accomplish even at low levels).

Here is -ktkenshinx-'s Mage Slayer build from his excellent Grappler's Guide.  You don't need most of this, but it's a fun character to play.

Spoiler
The Mage Slayer (Bard/Fighter/Rogue)
Some players just hate Wizards. You don't know what it is about Wizards that you hate, but boy do you hate them. Probably those pointy hats or their scrawny arms. Whatever the reason, when it comes to massacring mages at all levels of the game, accept nothing less than the Mage Slayer grappler. This is an extremely narrow build that, although useful against a variety of enemy types and classes, is at its best against those pesky magic users. There are tons of ways to build an antimage grappler (Wizard with Antimagic Field is another route), but this build will be the most relevant at all levels of the game, and is most likely to give your DMs magic practitioners a serious head/neck/throat ache.
 
The build functions around the almighty Silence spell, a no-save-allowed way to stop most magic cold. Your main class is College of Lore Bard, which gets you access to an arsenal of mage-murdering spells and gives you the highest possible single grapple checks of any class. It is critical to have high single grapple checks as a Mage Slayer because that initial grapple in the area of Silence is the most important. Once they are stuck there, they just can't do anything. Setting up that Silence will require a few different combinations of features, actions, and spells. As wizards scale up their power, your combos will scale with them. But because each engagement is so resource intensive, the build is heavily dependent on rests in between engagements, That play style might not suit everyone, but for those who want to give mages (and your DM) nightmares, this is the build for you.
 
As a final note, I emphasize this again: the build really is a single target, mage killing optimization. It's narrow, it's a nightmare for wizards, and it's a bit...strange, as far as grapplers go...
 
Starting Race: Human
Although you can go Mountain Dwarf in this build, Human is a better option because of how feat intensive the build is, especially at early levels.
 
Ability Scores: Here's your 27 point buy array assuming shameless optimization choices.
Str: 15 (Human +1 - Show those wimpy Wizards how it's done)
Dex 13 (Required for the Rogue multiclass)
Con 10 (This is a single-target, glass-cannon build. We can't afford to max out HP at the expense of other stas)
Int 8 (Int saves just aren't all that common, and those you do have to worry about shouldn't even work in an area of Silence)
Wis 10 (Never dump this; Wisdom saves tend to govern fear, and you do not want to be frightened as a grappler)
Cha 15 (Human +1 - More Charisma means more Cutting Words attempts)
 
Fighter 1
Human level 1 feat: Tavern Brawler
As with many grappling builds, start in Fighter to get the Heavy Armor Proficiency without spending a Feat. We get Warcaster both to concentrate on our spells in the fight, and to cast spells while wielding. We are also going to get the Dueling fighting style, and Tavern Brawler so we can grapple after making an attack (we will need that attack eventually to cause damage to trigger Mage Slayer).
Fighter 1 / Bard 1
With Heavy Armor acquired, we go straight for our Bard features/spells at level 3.
Fighter 1 / Bard 2
Fighter 1 / Bard 3
Expertise? Check. Cutting Words? Check. Silence? Check. Enhance Ability? Check. You now have access to your most basic combo. Cast Enhance Ability on yourself before the fight. At the beginning of the fight, walk over to the target and grapple them with advantage. Next turn, cast Silence on the area. We will defnitely do better than that later, but it's only level 4.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4
Level 4 Feat: Mage Slayer
Here's our next piece of the combo. Starting at level 5, you will encounter more situations where enemies have preexisting concentration-based spells before you grapple them. Those often need to go away if you are to win the fight, and Mage Slayer is going to get that done.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 1
To break concentration, we need big damage rolls on a single attack at the start of the fight. Rogue is going to get that done. Level 1 gets you Sneak Attack; you already have Expertise from Bard..
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 2
Cunning Action normally rocks at this level, but you generally won't use it because of Tavern Brawler. We are really going into Rogue to get the next class feature.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Assassinate plus Mage Slayer plus surprise equals impossible concentration saves. Now that we have finished out the Mage Slayer feature tree, we can change our combo to really ruin a mage's day. For your pre-fight buff, you have two options from the Bard 2 spell list. You can either stick with Enhance Ability and use Stealth to approach a target, or you can use Invisibility. Either way, you just want to make sure your target is surprised. Walk up to them and stab them with your improvised weapon short sword; it shouldn't take too much DM convincing to improvise a short sword. The attack will automatically score a critical hit for 6d6+5 damage (2d6 short sword, 4d6 sneak attack, 3 strength, 2 dueling). That assumes no magical buffs that add damage die, and you are already at an expected DC 13 Concentration save that they must make with disadvantage. Then grapple them and hold them in place until next turn when you can Silence.
Fighter 2 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Action Surge. What an imbalanced ability. Now you can do the same combo as above but ALSO cast Silence in the same turn you stab and grapple.
Fighter 3 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Getting to Fighter 3 gets you Battle Master, which will almost always be a Trip Attack applied to your opening stab. It's also an added 2d8 damage (1d8 doubled) on your automatic critical hit, which ups that Con save to DC 17 with disadvantage on the roll. Now your combo looks like this: Sneak up and stab to force a concentration save. As part of that sneak, apply a trip attack to get them prone. Then take a bonus action to grapple off Tavern Brawler. Now Action Surge, drop your improvised Short Sword, and cast Silence.
Fighter 4 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Level 4 Feat: Warcaster, Lucky, Magic Initiate
Bunch of different feat options here. Go Warcaster to guarantee that Silence doesn't get cracked. Go Lucky for an added guarantee on the initial grapple check. Or go Magic Initiate to gain Find Familiar, which you can use to take the Help action on that initial grapple (freeing up your pre-battle spell for Invisibility).
Fighter 5 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Extra Attack is the next evolution of your mage-murdering combo. Now that you have two attacks, you can replace one with a shove attempt, and modify the opening stab with Menacing Attack instead of Trip Attack. Stalk up to your target and take the attack action. Apply Menacing Attack to the stab and force a DC 17 (average) save with dsiadvantage. If they fail the wisdom save on the Menacing Attack, now they have disadvantage for the rest of the turn. Use shove in place of your second extra attack, and grapple with Tavern Brawler as a bonus action. Drop the sword, action surge, cast Silence, and watch your DM and his wizard cry.
Fighter 5 / Bard 5 / Rogue 3
Fighter 5 / Bard 6 / Rogue 3
The big bonus here is Magical Secrets through College of Lore. And boy, there are a lot of options to pick from, so this is a great way to round out your skillset. Two standout options I want to discuss are Blinding Smite and Counterspell. Counterspell is a somatic-only spell that will work even with Silence, and it's the best way to guarantee that your caster is totally locked down. Blinding Smite is a Paladin spell that requires concentration (so no invisibility), but adds 3d8 damage to your attack roll and forces a save to avoid blindness. If you connect with Assassinate on that opening hit and auto crit, your save will be basically impossible to match: an AVERAGE save of DC 31 made with disadvantage. Even if you don't automatically crit, it's still a DC 17 average save with disadvantage. Those are just two options you can take at this level.
From Level 14 onward, I recommend that you continue progressing in Bard to get that level 10 Magical Secrets feature. Then you can paly with those last two levels wherever you want.
 
One key to this build is beating the scariest spell of them all: Freedom of Movement. It's actually not that hard, but it just requires a combo modification. You will still open with your massive damage spike, still grapple the target with Tavern Brawler, and still shove them with your attack. But instead of casting Silence, you will cast Dispel Magic and try to strip the buff away. The DC is 14, and your bonus will be 3 + 1/2 of your proficency bonus (thanks Jack of all Trades). If you have the presence of mind to Enhance Ability (Charisma) yourself beforehand, you will have advantage on that check. After you remove it, just have a Counterspell ready for the intervening turn to stop anything your opponent tries. Then just Silence at the beginning of your second round.
 
That description should give you some idea of how narrow this build is, but also how powerful it is at shutting down a single spellcasting target. Despite this narrowness, there are lots of ways to increase your flexibility; Bards have so many useful spells in that regard, and you definitely aren't a shabby grappler even your target isn't a Mage. Just figure out ways to adapt your combo and you will be ready for grappling anyone, whether scrawny-armed and pointed-hatted or not.

Christopher Brady

Quote from: Mistwell;835323The mage slayer feat deals with this just fine.  And it's a good feat in general, and works well with your general grappler builds, which also work well and are fun and flavorful and not boring.

Assuming the DM allows feats, not all do.  And if I remember correctly, are an optional choice for the game.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]