Quote from: Natty Bodak;833394I think he's talking about the case where you can cast a spell as a bonus action (e.g. Healing Word), and then you are allowed to cast another spell with your remaining action if that additional spell is a cantrip and has a castng time of one action.

PLUS you also get reaction spells (eg, Shield).

And as far as extra spells, you get more spells now than you used to. For example, a level 5 mage used to have the ability to cast 1 3rd level spell a day, now it's 2 (not counting special abilities),

Quote from: Omega;833458His whole post comes across weird. Almost like he never actually even read the rules and was just cut-n-pasting someones trolling.

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Uh, no. I've just been playing and DMing the game with a number of skilled players, so it becomes ever more obvious just how overwhelming the spellcasting can be.

And the fact remains, the "CR 3" level 5 wizard, no special abilities, is a near certain TPK for a party below level 5. There's also some really goofy stuff you can do with druids (mephit massive explosion damage, for example).

Edit: I acknowledge that, with much tweaking and in a worst case scenario for the enemy mage, it's not a "near certain TPK"; I personally thank Greg Benage for demonstrating just how deadly this encounter is even in the worst possible case.

Something that I've done to slightly mitigate the constant lobbing of arcane destruction is to explain what happens to the surrounding environment (on misses and area of effect spells). My players nearly burnt down their own home base, destroyed valuable artifacts and caused a cave-in.

Also, the Warlock's free-wheeling use of Thaumaturgy to intimidate superstitious folks with "divine punishment" has gotten him unwanted attention: a new, troublesome and interfering cult forming around him and investigators from the local temples gauging how much of threat he is (or if he's a heretic).

Just because the spell targets a living creature it doesn't mean that everything else around them is unaffected.

To be clear, not punishing, just making things interesting.

I gave 5e a good long go as a player.

I do not like it. Combat, while swingy, is interminable with a group of 6 players. By the time everyone gets done with bonus actions, reactions, calculating if this square can/can not do XYZ, blah blah I am bored stiff and is it my turn soon, 15 mins later?

Way too much magic for mine. How is a spellcaster never running out of spells more exciting than harnessing your dwindling supply then turning to missiles (roughly equally effective) as a last resort?

Every time I want to do, see or hear something I seem to be required to make a check. I realise this may be campaign dependent but this is two wholly seperate campaigns with only one crossover player (me). By virtue of spelling their need and interaction out so exactly, it makes rolling the dice over rping the assumed path it seems to me.

Quote from: Necrozius;833529Something that I've done to slightly mitigate the constant lobbing of arcane destruction is to explain what happens to the surrounding environment (on misses and area of effect spells). My players nearly burnt down their own home base, destroyed valuable artifacts and caused a cave-in.

Nice.

Shouldn't that be SOP in every campaign ever?

There's yet another '5e monsters are boring' thread at TBP right now, and the usual characters are het up about 5e DMs being required to (1) read the monster 'fluff' and (2) improvise elements beyond damage figures. It seems to me 5e pushes DMs hard toward just what you've done: adding 'rational' consequences to taste, based on the 'fluff.'

I wish WotC had better prose writers in their stable, though -- compare PHB spell descriptions to, say, LotFP's extraordinarily rich writeups. More evocative writing would've helped drive home the 'take this richly imagined thing and imagine more with it' lesson. That's not a new problem for WotC though, and I didn't expect more from them in that department. Ho hum.

Quote from: Doom;833526PLUS you also get reaction spells (eg, Shield).

And as far as extra spells, you get more spells now than you used to. For example, a level 5 mage used to have the ability to cast 1 3rd level spell a day, now it's 2 (not counting special abilities),

So, let's take inventory of the bonus and reaction spells for a 5th level wizard.

Bonus Action:
Expeditious Retreat - 1st
Magic Weapon - 2nd
Misty Step - 2nd

Reaction:
Feather Fall - 1st
Shield - 1st
Counterspell - 3rd

It's a pretty nice selection to be sure. 2 escape spells and 1 buff for bonus actions. 1 utility spell and two defensive spells in the reaction list. Not "that's so uber", but still really nice.  For what it's worth, I do agree that the casters get to cast more spells, even not counting cantrips.  I've copped to it before, but unlimited cantrips (especially combat cantrips) along will all of these extra spells is a bit more than I care for for a setting.

But, back to the my point of contention. With a 5th level wizard fighting a 4th level party (greater numbers count in 5e), how is the wizard going to defend against the party rogue *and* the party caster?  Shield and counterspell are both reactions, of which you only get one a turn, so the wizard has to make a choice.  Does he shield against the barbarian that just hit him, and leave himself open to the sleep/command/silence?  This decision point/trap is what

Quote from: Doom;833527And the fact remains, the "CR 3" level 5 wizard, no special abilities, is a near certain TPK for a party below level 5. There's also some really goofy stuff you can do with druids (mephit massive explosion damage, for example).

Several folks have posted how their experience is quite different. Either your players aren't as experienced as you think they are, or the enemy wizard is crafting an ambush for the party, or "near certain TPK" is pretty steep hyperbole.

What goofy druid/mephit stuff are you talking about, by the way?

Been running a 5e game since launch (Curse of the Crimson Throne, a Paizo AP) - love the system ... for D&D.  There are other games I prefer more, overall (Savage Worlds and Supers, for instance), but this is, by far, the best edition of D&D.

There are things I'd like to see changed.  Champion fighters are a bit underpowered, for one.  The monsters tend to be a bit dull - I'd like a bit more 4E in them, at least as an option.

Oh, and THERE'S NO FUCKING PDF/SRD!!!!

That is almost a deal killer for me.  There's no hint of anything coming out, either.  2015 and no (legal) digital form other than the basic PDF which is largely useless to me because a subset of something is almost more aggravating than a complete lack of it because I don't know if what I want is in there until I search the whole damn thing.

Counterspell is always über. It is literally the definition of über -- beyond the most obvious, Wish. You always prep Counterspell. You always reserve excess, and preferably higher, slots for Counterspell. It is the permission slip spell. Look at MtG, the lesson of Counterspell is etched in stone for an entire generation.

Shield is extremely solid, as it lasts all the way until the start of your next turn. Fantastic 1st lvl spell to get stuff off and get away.

Sleep is solid, but people forget that it's indiscriminate targeting of lowest HP. Target wrong and your 20' radius hits your allies. Also, it just takes an action to shake awake someone. And further still, there's no such thing as coup de grace in this game. Sure, you get Advantage and Critical to hit a prone, unconscious opponent from 5' away, but you better go through all their HP. I think a lot of people have been playing this one wrong at tables -- 5e has very different assumptions about Sleep (note the lack of the bolded rule above).

I personally don't think a 5th lvl caster is a sure TPK for 1st tier players. Depends on party composition, and more importantly, party cooperation. If PCs don't work the obvious "Who Dies First" order of operations, then yes, there'll be problems, but that's not new. (FYI, it goes Healer > Nuke/Caster > Ranged > Striker > Tank. Always ignore the tank, without support it crumbles. The "undo button" Healer however must die immediately, no questions asked! Next focus fire on the caster/nuke.)

Good coordinated strategy and tactics can lay waste to that challenge. Given my AL observation and this forum's actual play stories however, such coordination is not so common. I think a lot of people are in the 'yay, new toy!' phase and are tinkering around, rather than focusing on being a squad of well-oiled killing machines. Focused intent can make all the difference.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833553Counterspell is always über. It is literally the definition of über -- beyond the most obvious, Wish. You always prep Counterspell. You always reserve excess, and preferably higher, slots for Counterspell. It is the permission slip spell. Look at MtG, the lesson of Counterspell is etched in stone for an entire generation.

Shield is extremely solid, as it lasts all the way until the start of your next turn. Fantastic 1st lvl spell to get stuff off and get away.

This is true, but remember you can't have your Shield and eat your Counterspell too.  You get one reaction, and your opponents are watching to see on which you lay all of your chips down.  I have thought about adding a contested spellcasting roll to counterspell for all levels to make it less uber, but decided I'd need to see it play out more often.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833553Sleep is solid, but people forget that it's indiscriminate targeting of lowest HP. Target wrong and your 20' radius hits your allies. Also, it just takes an action to shake awake someone. And further still, there's no such thing as coup de grace in this game. Sure, you get Advantage and Critical to hit a prone, unconscious opponent from 5' away, but you better go through all their HP. I think a lot of people have been playing this one wrong at tables -- 5e has very different assumptions about Sleep (note the lack of the bolded rule above).

I'm not sure people forget that about sleep, but maybe they do. Either way, you make good points, but...  

Fireball is just as indiscriminate as Sleep (Sculpt Spell bullshit aside) and has a larger radius. EDIT: they have the same radius. I am dumb.

Coup de grace or not, an unconscious 5th level wizard without friends is a bound, gagged, and dead 5th level wizard. There was no mention of a 5th level wizard with minions (not that that is unrealistic or uncommon - it just wasn't mentioned).  

The point that was up for contention (at least the way I see it) is that you can't prevent the 5th level wizard from fireballing you twice in a row.  And that's been objectively proven to be false in actual play.  You weren't arguing otherwise, I know, but just tying back to that idea.

Quote from: Necrozius;833529My players nearly burnt down their own home base, destroyed valuable artifacts and caused a cave-in. ......
To be clear, not punishing, just making things interesting.

Wonder what punishing would look like.

Quote from: zarathustra;833534I gave 5e a good long go as a player.

I do not like it. Combat, while swingy, is interminable with a group of 6 players. By the time everyone gets done with bonus actions, reactions, calculating if this square can/can not do XYZ, blah blah I am bored stiff and is it my turn soon, 15 mins later?

Way too much magic for mine. How is a spellcaster never running out of spells more exciting than harnessing your dwindling supply then turning to missiles (roughly equally effective) as a last resort?

Every time I want to do, see or hear something I seem to be required to make a check. I realise this may be campaign dependent but this is two wholly seperate campaigns with only one crossover player (me). By virtue of spelling their need and interaction out so exactly, it makes rolling the dice over rping the assumed path it seems to me.

What I have found from reading through WotC's "APs" the 'DC' is typically 10 making people roll for a 10 is imo stupid.

Quote from: Necrozius;833529Something that I've done to slightly mitigate the constant lobbing of arcane destruction is to explain what happens to the surrounding environment (on misses and area of effect spells). My players nearly burnt down their own home base, destroyed valuable artifacts and caused a cave-in.

Also, the Warlock's free-wheeling use of Thaumaturgy to intimidate superstitious folks with "divine punishment" has gotten him unwanted attention: a new, troublesome and interfering cult forming around him and investigators from the local temples gauging how much of threat he is (or if he's a heretic).

Just because the spell targets a living creature it doesn't mean that everything else around them is unaffected.

To be clear, not punishing, just making things interesting.

Can I get an "AMEN!?"

In other news shocking to 4e players, fire sets things on fire.

Quote from: Sommerjon;833564Wonder what punishing would look like.
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Oh I'm sure that I'll get quoted on grognards.txt for being an evil, sadistic and overly-pedantic GM. But my reasoning is the whole fail-forward concept. Sure, you can miss with your spells, but something still happens if the spell's effects are interesting.

Fireball in an enclosed, wooden room full of dusty old tapestries? What the fuck would one THINK would happen?

EDIT: BEING AN ASS

Quote from: Necrozius;833573Oh I'm sure that I'll get quoted on grognards.txt for being an evil, sadistic and overly-pedantic GM. But my reasoning is the whole fail-forward concept. Sure, you can miss with your spells, but something still happens if the spell's effects are interesting.

You allow the players to do something extra "if the spell's effects are interesting"?

Quote from: Necrozius;833573Fireball in an enclosed, wooden room full of dusty old tapestries? What the fuck would one THINK would happen?

Truthfully?  Not a whole helluvalot.
If you are wanting some real world logic with that description.  Not enough oxygen to ignite the room.  The fireball doesn't last long enough to ignite the room/contents.

Quote from: Necrozius;833573EDIT: I suppose that a progressive, super nice, cooperative GM would have changed the room's (randomly determined) details as they considered the party's daily choice of spells. I don't always have the time or energy to keep track of all those variables in the heat of the moment.

:rolleyes:

When 5e came out, I ran an extended playtest mini-campaign for the BRP/Runequest group I play with. We agreed that it was quite good, easily the best "modern" D&D version we played so far, and returned to play a game more to our tastes. D&D never was my go-to system for anything. 5e hasn't changed that. But: I would play it or run it if the occasion arises and I would probably enjoy it, as a brief intermission. I wouldn't want to play i on a weekly base.
And yes, the aforementioned focus on magic is quite present and annoying in 5e. Especially the 'no interruption of spellcasting' bit is something I houseruled almost immediately out of the game back when we played it.

Quote from: Sommerjon;833577

Quote from: Necrozius;833573Sure, you can miss with your spells, but something still happens if the spell's effects are interesting.

You allow the players to do something extra "if the spell's effects are interesting"?

It's quite the stretch to get from "something still happens" to "allow the players to do something extra." Be sure to limber up first.

Quote from: Sommerjon;833577

Quote from: Necrozius;833573Fireball in an enclosed, wooden room full of dusty old tapestries? What the fuck would one THINK would happen?

Truthfully?  Not a whole helluvalot.
If you are wanting some real world logic with that description.  Not enough oxygen to ignite the room.  The fireball doesn't last long enough to ignite the room/contents.

Because a fireball can kill a man five times over, with fire, but not burn a tapestry? If anything is suffering from a lack of oxygen in the room, it's the "real world logic" of your response.