Quote from: Opaopajr;834714Interesting mechanical introductions, such as with partially using your turn and then holding some for later, and flanking. Are you using houserules or DMG additions? Did Kefra use the Ready action with your arrival as a trigger?

Flanking is in the DMG and was Jan's idea to take advantage of based off that map and what we could do.

I think we flubbed Kefra holding her action after moving since if I am reading it right it uses up your reaction. So Jan's Commander's Strike would have been wasted on her. On top of that I think Jan forgot that the maneuver uses a Bonus action so she could not have used it twice like that. I did not notice that till later today when looking up some stuff in the PHB. Though since Kefra spectacularly missed one of her attacks even with advantage in the end it evens out.

Otherwise I think we played it right. Kefra moved in and held her attack until I was in place and attacked, which triggered her held attack action.

Correct on both counts, Ready uses action and reaction, and Bonus Action "slot" may only receive one bonus action, regardless of how many you may qualify for. I could copy-pasta cite, but you already have the material and sounds like you looked it up. That said, it sounds like everyone is pretty combat decent and not squishy, so I think you could have handled it PHB RAW.

(If you gave a summarized PC readout, I could say what I would have done PHB RAW. I don't think the example is all that hard, given I think one Healing Potion on the Fighter acts as insurance against any hope for M. But it is a GM tactical exercise, good to stay sharp.

Actually if M wanted to win, he would have casted Web 10' away from the front line first. The 20' cube would cause a DEX save to Restrain, consume an action with a STR check v. spell DC to break Restrain, leave Difficult Terrain & Light Obscure, and are flammable for an extra 2d4 fire damage to the creature's starting turn.

Even if some save the Difficult Terrain eats up 10' of movement. And anyone Restrained has 0 Spd, Disadv on their Atk rolls, Adv on enemy Atk rolls, and Disadv on DEX checks. Which, since Fireball is a DEX check, and flaming webs add 2d4 fire dmg at victim's turn start, is quite sexy evil.

But that's just me.)

What I really liked from your example was using Ready as a non-obvious substitute for Hold an Action, a staple back in the day. Ready is an interesting mechanic.

The lack of being actually able to hold an action till later is one of the few small off points to 5e. Having to go through the mechanics of the ready/reaction action seems an almost needless extra mechanic. But I guess it was put there to prevent some weird abuse.

As for the us vs mage battle. We just went at it as if it were a normal encounter without trying to overthink it and the Doom mage was focused on cranking out those two fireballs. Which since he had initiative, was actually a pretty good idea as it had a chance to drop the whole group. With a little prep he could have been more of a threat. He had mage armour up by the way.

Which is the other down point of 5e. The fixed initiative system. None of the current group or the one I DM for like it and reverted back to rolling off each turn.

Bemusingly the after-combat conversation consisted of A: chewing me out for not having Counterspell, and B: wondering just what that lone mage was doing there alone anyhow?

Hold was tactically interesting in the Fog of War Initiative where it is rolled off each round. However it could be cumbersome and I found it best for small to mid skirmishes. By 3e it became so useful to game the system, and with (IIRC) Feats like Improved Initiative kinda annoying.

In fixed or rolling initiatives Hold action is too game-able for my tastes.

I am OK losing out on Hold action, but I sorely miss Fog of War Initiative, as I mentioned earlier in this topic.

Ready action is made predominantly for out of combat uses in preparation. Great for teamwork like standing ranged weapon ready before someone throws open the door. Or great for exiting combat, Readying to Dash upon seeing a monster suffer transformation. I'd expect to use that action a lot in a Ravenloft game, as that dramatic pause and triggered action is very in atmosphere to the genre.

(PS: And yes, you should have been chewed out for not having Counterspell. You have Dispel Magic though, right? Right? O_o )

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834552Ceding to the Mage both initiative and position for a no-collateral-damage fireball that hits every opponent, it looks pretty bad for the Mage. And all without a Wish spell for the Mage's retroactive miscarriage, no less.

Absolutely, worst case scenario, mage doesn't go to a corner, cherry-picked classes (we all know Moon Druid is screwy, right?), everyone makes the save, give everyone an extra level, and damage roll is low, and it's a cakewalk.

You're right.

Just for fun, let's try it with a level 4 party, cleric, wizard, barbarian, and rogue, level 4.

Fireball goes off. Two characters fail their save (cleric and wizard, the ones most likely), and the expected damage from the fireball is more than these characters have at level 4, unless they have a high con (and the mage only has to roll a little higher to take care of that).

Mage moves back to corner.

Now, at this point, the barbarian and rogue should just run away, and I agree that's no TPK...but that's a strange "easy" encounter where mathematically running away and letting two characters die is the typical result.

So, just for fun, let's assume the barbarian rages, and has the movement to go to the mage in the corner; the rogue can just barely get a shot off and move to where a fireball won't get him and the barbarian at the same time (I'm assuming neither is a dwarf/halfling/slow mover). I'll let someone else do the math to see if the AC 19 wizard expects to die in one round from this, but I suspect it'll be a near thing at best (the barbarian might get lucky with a crit, I concede).

Round 2, 2nd fireball puts the barbarian down. Round three, a level 2 magic missile will take out the rogue, assuming the rogue doesn't just run away.

Again, we can hem and haw about particulars, but half the party getting oneshotted in the first round isn't my opinion of "easy".

In my actual play experience, a Great Weapon Master Barbarian should one-shot that mage, and a Sharpshooter Rogue should one-shot that same mage within low single digits, and we're not even getting into grittier details.

As long as we are allowed at least one healing potion, (as readily available in PHB equipment list, and supposedly in major cities,) and as expected among a party of four 4th lvls, that mage is toast.

But hey, we all have our different experiences.

Quote from: Doom;834869Absolutely, worst case scenario, mage doesn't go to a corner, cherry-picked classes (we all know Moon Druid is screwy, right?), everyone makes the save, give everyone an extra level, and damage roll is low, and it's a cakewalk.

Nice try. But you still fail miserably. That was just the group we happen to be playing. One melee centric Warlock, One melee centric Circle of Moon Druid, and one archery centric Battle Master Figher.

Even with all melee centric Fighters it would have gone about the same or more likely worse as a group of fighters an potentially dole out much more damage than Kefra and myself could.

You also fail in your blind urge to harp and bitch about the wizard to note where I point out that the mage in the example combat was still a formidible opponent. But he is not invincible and if he doesnt have initiative then things may go very very badly for him even with your much vaunted two fireballs and more more more spells which he cant even cast while dropping those fireballs. Yeah right. Next one please.

Back on topic, like that will last.

How is anyone who has played with the official modules found them?

I have been DMing the much derided Tyrrany of Dragons and actually enjoyed it quite a bit. At first it seemed a little odd. But once I had a good handle on the cult, things started to click and it really rolled along well.

Quote from: Omega;834700. We all make our saves again. .

You've completely failed at this point, sorry. Making eight roughly 50% saves in a row is something of a factor, honest.

Anyway, yeah, I've been playing the Tiamat campaign, we're just past the tomb of the Oracle/Yuan Ti. It's pretty playable stuff, though there have been plenty of PKs (at least a dozen; for some reason, in my campaign, players sometimes fail saving throws against damage spells. Ymmv, I concede).

Quote from: Opaopajr;834899In my actual play experience, a Great Weapon Master Barbarian should one-shot that mage, and a Sharpshooter Rogue should one-shot that same mage within low single digits, and we're not even getting into grittier details.

As long as we are allowed at least one healing potion, (as readily available in PHB equipment list, and supposedly in major cities,) and as expected among a party of four 4th lvls, that mage is toast.

I totally grant the odds are the mage dies, but I'm just not convinced this is an "easy" battle.

Help me out here, because I'm not the best at this.

Can you drink a healing potion as a bonus action? That would make a BIG difference, I admit, especially if you only get 1 action i this fight.

Now comes the part I really need help with:

So, let's see, AC 19 mage.
A level 4 barbarian has a +2 proficiency bonus, a strength of 20, so +7 to hit. A greatsword does 2d6, +5 for strength (of 20), +2 rage damage.

So, a hit averages 14 points of damage, and he'll hit 45% of the time. Assuming he's a 2 attack barbarian (not all are), that's 12.6 damage on average. That seems way below "should one shot", assuming by "one shot" you mean "two attacks".

I'm sure I missed something there. Help me out?


Now, let's take a look at the sharpshooter rogue.

Again, a Dex of 18 and +2 proficiency gives + 6 to hit; if he takes Sharpshooter, he might not have a Dex of 20, after all.

Straight up, you can attack at 40% chance to hit, a longbow is d8, + 4 for Dex, + 2d6 for sneak attack...that's an expected 6.2 damage.

I guess you can use the "-5 to hit, +10 to damage" way. Now you've got a 15% chance to hit.....that's 3.825 expected damage.

I grant that I'm not taking critical hits into account here, but it sure looks like both put together, optimized for damage, can't expect to kill the mage. I grant it could totally happen, but not a sure thing in my book.

Quote from: Doom;834869So, just for fun, let's assume the barbarian rages, and has the movement to go to the mage in the corner; the rogue can just barely get a shot off and move to where a fireball won't get him and the barbarian at the same time (I'm assuming neither is a dwarf/halfling/slow mover). I'll let someone else do the math to see if the AC 19 wizard expects to die in one round from this, but I suspect it'll be a near thing at best (the barbarian might get lucky with a crit, I concede).

I already went through it in detail with a fighter instead of a barbarian, but okay. The outcome is almost certainly the same (M runs or dies), but it goes a little differently.

M's first problem is that the barbarian with 16 Con has 45 hit points. So he's down to 31 after the first fireball. He's bear totem (of course) and rages, so that means he'll have advantage on the next Dexterity save (Danger Sense) and he'll take half damage from the second fireball (in the unlikely event there is one). So he moves up and makes a reckless attack at +6 with advantage, giving him a 64% chance to hit AC 19. He deals 13 damage on a hit, leaving the mage with 10.

The rogue uses Cunning Action to take a bonus action Dash to get into melee no matter where M hides. He attacks at +6 and has a 64% chance to hit with at least one attack (plus sneak attack). If he does, M is dead.

Still, this is going better for M: There's a 59% chance that at least one of the barbarian or rogue will miss! Let's say the rogue misses with both his attacks, so M finishes the round with 10 hit points in melee with the barbarian and rogue.

Now he casts his other fireball! Problem is, the barbarian still has 31 hit points, advantage on the save, and takes half damage from it. If he fails the save, he's still got 14 hit points. That means he has another 64% chance to hit M, and if he does M is dead. We'll assume the rogue is down at this point, even if he makes his save.

If the barbarian misses, what does M do? Did you say he tosses a magic missile? Let's make it 2nd level: That does 7 points of damage (bear totem again...). So the barbarian gets another 64% chance to drop the mage.

Conclusion: Since there is only a 13% chance that the barbarian misses both his second and third attack, M has an 87% chance of dying by Round 2...if things have otherwise gone well for him.

ETA: I didn't give either the barbarian or rogue any feats; they each have 18 in their primary ability score.

Quote from: Greg Benage;834946If the barbarian misses, what does M do? Did you say he tosses a magic missile? Let's make it 2nd level: That does 7 points of damage (bear totem again...). So the barbarian gets another 64% chance to drop the mage.
e.

Oh, absolutely classes that are damage resistant will be resistant to damage. And, it's clear I missed "reckless attack" which indeed does give a decent chance of the mage dying in one round in this white room example, at least for a frenzy barbarian.

You've got the rules wrong here a bit though: only the first attack is reckless (p49, phb), and you don't get two attacks a round as a bear totem barbarian in any event. I'm not even seeing Action Surge on the rogue, so he only gets one attack (making your "at least one attack" line confusing) and sneak attack damage also only applies once a round (p96). So the mage isn't going down on one round of survivor attacks...that second fireball is going off.

Question: how does the bear totem keep the two downed party members alive? I still feel 2 characters dead by round 1.5 if anything at all goes wrong is a bit much for an "easy" encounter, but I concede this is just my opinion.

I again maintain: are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE the level 5 wizard represents just as minimal risk to the party as a minotaur? Both are CR 3, but one doesn't rely on particular race/class/type combos in any way to avoid multiple deaths, and one takes very little (5' hallway, the ability to kite the party, minor hazards in the way) to put some real harm on the party.

You're not defining why M, the mage, has AC 19. Besides Shield, which is +5 AC, how is M getting AC 14? Because the second you say Mage Armor, then we open the can of worms of "spells before battle." And if you give me those two casters, Cleric and Wizard, and allow spells before battle, you know that's game, set, and match.

And then we'll spill into "gear/feats/race before battle," and so on. You say fireball, I say Tiefling, or Diviner Wizard, or XYZ, et cetera. It's just not a fruitful path.

Look, I know where you are coming from about spellcasters. I agreed with you on the points about hard to counter their first turn, especially once they get the initiative drop on you. But now we're approaching White Room Arena wankery. That's why I said to Shipwreck's introduction of the example there's too many variables to say.

(And yes, the feats would be using their -5 for +10 dmg, which given that every point buy starts at +5 atk (2 for PB and 3 for prime atk stat) isn't that big of a deal. If you learn your conditions well, it's not hard to set up combos, for Adv and the like. Lv 5 M, by AL, would have 6 HP starting, 4 HP (half HD+1) x4 for the next three levels, and whatever CON bonus (or feat).

That's 22 HP plus char build. And there's a whole lot of char build. Do we really want to go there? My signature pleads for us to 'just say no'.)

The CR ratings are rather screwy, granted. That said I can see where they are coming from about the minotaur. Whereas a Lv 5 mage spreads out a lot of damage if it gets the drop on the party, the minotaur has a higher chance of outright killing at least one character due to high HP for survival, solid to excellent saves on the prime three (DEX, CON, & WIS), and high damage output.

The pushback 10' and knocked prone on a Charge of at least 10' is there to pick off stragglers. Prone takes either 1/2 move to just stand up, or you crawl at 1/2, all your attacks are at Disadv, and any attack w/in 5' against you are at Adv. Being Charge+Gore locked for 22 HP (13+9) can take downed Tier 1 characters into Insta-kill range.

(Also god help you if you have a GM who plays it Wise. That Labyrinthine Recall is terrifying with its Darkvision, Spd 40', Passive Perception 17, and Perception +7. If it ran away to hunt down the party another time... {Shudder})

They operate as very different challenges, and both tend to shine with setting context on their side. A proper labyrinth, or a GM who played up the minotaur's wisdom, could make for a terrifying opponent. But then the same can be said about a mage, even an enchanter or illusionist.

Minotaur
Large monstrosity, chaotic evil
Armor Class 14 (natural armor) Hit Points 76 (9d10 + 27) Speed 40 ft.

STR 18 (+4); DEX 11 (+0); CON 16 (+3); INT 6 (−2); WIS 16 (+3); CHA 9 (−1)

Skills Perception +7
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 17
Languages Abyssal
Challenge 3 (700 XP)

Charge. If the minotaur moves at least 10 feet straight toward a target and then hits it with a gore attack on the same turn, the target takes an extra 9 (2d8) piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 14 Strength saving throw or be pushed up to 10 feet away and knocked prone.

Labyrinthine Recall. The minotaur can perfectly recall any path it has traveled.

Reckless. At the start of its turn, the minotaur can gain advantage on all melee weapon attack rolls it makes during that turn, but attack rolls against it have advantage until the start of its next turn.

Actions
Greataxe. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 17 (2d12 + 4) slashing damage.
Gore. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 13 (2d8 + 4) piercing damage.

Their fur stained with the blood of fallen foes, minotaurs are massive, bull-headed humanoids whose roar is a savage battle cry that all civilized creatures fear.
(DM/MM Basic .pdf, November 2014. p. 36.)

Quote from: Opaopajr;834973That's why I said to Shipwreck's introduction of the example there's too many variables to say.

It's... it's Shipyard...

(Heh, just kidding, I got this name from an online random word generator )

After playing for a bit, I agree that CR has only been useful as a very loose guideline (CR# = moderately challenging fight against party of four PCs of average level equal to the CR#).

Some monsters have proven to be devastating when they surprise the heroes, but once a regular fight breaks out (and teamwork ensues) they're done for.

I can see why fans of 4e are frustrated with this edition.