But wait! what if noone is in range to Grapple?

OK, so similar scenario..

Party rocks up, sees a Mage in the distance. It looks like he's about to throw a nasty spell... He has a glowing Orb in his hand or he's grabbing stuff from his robes..
Or the party is paranoid and assume he's up to something.

The party know they won't get to him in time...
The Ranger (or whoever might have a ranged weapon ready) states.
I take a ready action, as soon as he starts to grab stuff, I shoot at that hand, knocking it out of the hand or impaling it or something.

There's no specific rule for this, but there ARE rules to work with somewhat.

As I run RPGs in a pretty loose way I'd say the following:

The Ranger can do the called shot at the hand that's grabbing stuff and he'll have to take a ranged weapon attack as a readied action (assuming he beats the Mage at Initiative) at DISADVANTAGE, as it's a very specific location.
Damage will be applied normally however it'll disrupt whatever the Ranger was describing he wanted to stop..

In this case, if the Ranger hits at DISADVANTAGE (AND wins initiative) , the arrow hit's the Mage's hand that's grabbing or holding a focus or grabbing stuff..
Therefore the Mage can't fulfill the material component and the fireball fails.

I've only added one mechanic, which is the called shot Disadvantage ruling.

Maybe there's already called shot rules, in which case I'd use that, but if not, that makes sense to me.

Again, 5E is very easily moddable and IMO this doesn't break anything and a situation like this sounds reasonable to me.

Quote from: danskmacabre;834277In this case, if the Ranger hits at DISADVANTAGE (AND wins initiative) , the arrow hit's the Mage's hand that's grabbing or holding a focus or grabbing stuff..
Therefore the Mage can't fulfill the material component and the fireball fails.

Disarm already does this though? Its in the DMG.

Quote from: Omega;834278Disarm already does this though? Its in the DMG.

Ok yeah that works too.   Even better as you're using an existing mechanic.

Quote from: Doom;834253I see I'm being misrepresented here again. What, pray tell, element, did I misapply?

I am curious, too. I actually disagree with your assessment, except for the objectively true statements you mentioned. But apparently we are saying the same thing in this topic. :rolleyes:

And I quoted and cited my work.

Quote from: danskmacabre;834275Before this subject came up, I assumed there WAS a way to do that in the existing mechanics.
In a way there IS, you just need to expand it a bit.
A lot of spells have VSM Requirements, so as long as you can disable somehow the caster from fulfilling those requirements, then within the framework of the rules, you can stop the caster getting his spell off.

The only thing that's missing is the actual specific mechanic to handle this in the rules.
It seems to be an oversight to me, albeit a really big one.

The grappling rules seem like a way to do that. it's mostly there really, it just needs a bit of descriptive text added. You don't even need to add a new mechanic, just use the Grapple opposed dice roll to remove fulfilling one of the casting requirements as I described earlier.
 
5E is very moddable anyway and WotC seem to encourage the DM to wing it somewhat to reflect stuff that isn't covered, so it's not really a big thing.

I take the view in RPGs anyway that  if it seems like it's possible to do but the rules don't cover it, then the rules take a back seat to common sense.

True, it is easily modded. And it does seem like an oversight.

Grappling explicitly only applies Grappled condition. And it explicitly takes a feat, Grappler, to then take another attack action to turn a Grapple condition into a Restrained condition. So you could openly state you're not running RAW or using the optional rules.

Or, use the Improvise an Action action mentioned in the tan box, as I have repeatedly mentioned and cited in this topic. Been saying that for awhile now. But be prepared for it not working in AL without a compliant table (GM and/or Players) and coordinator (because there are already extant explicit rules for what Grapple does), and be prepared for that discussion with your own non-Organized Play home table if others balk.

Quote from: danskmacabre;834276To clarify a bit better...

A wizard is about to throw a fireball.
It has a VSM requirement.

Verbal: So he has to say stuff (Magical words to activate the spell)

Material: He has  a material component (or spell focus), so he has to grab some bat guano and Sulphur or hold onto his focus.

Somatic: He has to wave his hands about or throw the guano or whatever.

Lets say a fighter is in range to jump the mage and sees the Mage raising arms, chanting, grabbing stuff etc...
Or perhaps he knows he's a Mage and knows (or thinks he knows) the mage needs his arms free or to say stuff or grab stuff to get of a spell, which he assumes he's going to do.

The fighter decides he's going to grapple the mage and restrain his arms..

He assumes this will be enough to stop the spell getting off (It might not, if the spell doesn't have Somatic and Material components).
Normal Grapple test takes place..
If the fighter wins, the Mage's arms are restrained, stopping him doing stuff that requires use of arms.
In this case, he can't cast the fireball, as he needs his arms to get or hold onto the bat guano and Sulphur or hold onto/grab his focus.

The fighter might have chosen to cover his mouth instead or shove his face into the ground, stopping the mage fulfilling the Verbal requirement.
Again, same opposed grapple check, but the fighter is somehow covering the Mage's mouth.

No mechanics have been added. All that's been done here is flesh out the Grapple better and it really makes sense you should be able to do things things with a successful Grapple.

It could be an interesting option for Improvised Action. However at that point for a home game it's just easier to introduce weapon attacks interrupting spell casting. It also removes the arms race wizards have for DEX, which affects AC, Initiative, and Acrobatics, which is one of the skills one can choose to contest Grapples and Shoves. It's just a cleaner solution to return to older ideas than all this extra effort, I think.

You only need one free hand, for both S and M (ba-dum, tsh!). Very few spells lack V, so countering V is mission critical. So granting Grapple to cover someone's mouth, and not also explicitly defining the cost for Grapple maintenance, it will be easy for Fighters to grapple casters and holding them between his thighs, covering their mouths. A very kinky unintended(?) consequence, possibly overpowering with Action Surge and Extra Attack. But hey, tinkering RPG systems is fun, too.

Info on VSM, btw:

Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components, but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 79.)

Quote from: danskmacabre;834277But wait! what if noone is in range to Grapple?

OK, so similar scenario..

Party rocks up, sees a Mage in the distance. It looks like he's about to throw a nasty spell... He has a glowing Orb in his hand or he's grabbing stuff from his robes..
Or the party is paranoid and assume he's up to something.

The party know they won't get to him in time...
The Ranger (or whoever might have a ranged weapon ready) states.
I take a ready action, as soon as he starts to grab stuff, I shoot at that hand, knocking it out of the hand or impaling it or something.

There's no specific rule for this, but there ARE rules to work with somewhat.

As I run RPGs in a pretty loose way I'd say the following:

The Ranger can do the called shot at the hand that's grabbing stuff and he'll have to take a ranged weapon attack as a readied action (assuming he beats the Mage at Initiative) at DISADVANTAGE, as it's a very specific location.
Damage will be applied normally however it'll disrupt whatever the Ranger was describing he wanted to stop..

In this case, if the Ranger hits at DISADVANTAGE (AND wins initiative) , the arrow hit's the Mage's hand that's grabbing or holding a focus or grabbing stuff..
Therefore the Mage can't fulfill the material component and the fireball fails.

I've only added one mechanic, which is the called shot Disadvantage ruling.

Maybe there's already called shot rules, in which case I'd use that, but if not, that makes sense to me.

Again, 5E is very easily moddable and IMO this doesn't break anything and a situation like this sounds reasonable to me.

The use of the Ready action to Disarm (DMG. Also not AL compliant, but fun nonetheless) is beautiful. However to use a Ready action means its already your turn, as you must a) not be Surprised, and b) use up your Action and Reaction to set up the trigger. And at that point you're sorta better off Moving out of the party cluster and just shooting the caster for massive amounts of damage as your party Dashes out into a dispersed anti-caster formation. Sharpshooter is disgusting by the way.

Too bad it is also nullified with the "One Free Interaction with the Environment" part that everyone gets on their turn. Which would be on the wizard's turn to, a) pick up the orb, or b) draw a new spell focus, and keep casting the spell's S and M components with the same, very dextrous, juggling, hand. Otherwise, fantastic design effort on your part — I was really feeling the moment there. (No, I'm not being sarcastic! It sounded like a fun old school game!)

Now if you had two ranged weapon fighters Readied... But then at that point you should have shot the caster dead or within an inch of its life, while also dispersing into anti-caster formation. Hey, Stabilizing the Dying isn't all that hard, and then you can gag and manacle the caster to interrogate at your leisure.

(I know, I'm no fun. )

Thanks Opaopajr for the detailed response, I appreciate it.

I didn't see the improvised action and I agree, it seems to cover pretty much whatever you want if it's not already covered.
Actually it's far simpler to use that than mess with Grapple.
As you say, Grapple does appear to have specific limitations and feats built around it.

But really, the improvised action just makes it simpler to use than ever, without even requiring to add any new rules.
You could just use what I laid out above, but call it an improvised action instead of a Grapple.

TBH, I don't see what the problem is at all. It does appear the system inherently supports interrupting spells, it's just not that obvious.
I DO think it should have been made more clear though. As interrupting spells is a pretty big and important option.

I don't really think it'd cause an overall reaction of characters mostly using chokes, thigh holds...  binding an gagging etc as sometimes is easier and quicker to chop the mage into bite sized pieces or using special abilities for the various classes.
Even at 2nd level the Barbarian character for a game I'm running can deal out truly horrific damage...

Still, it's very nice that you CAN actually do this with the existing rules.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834290The use of the Ready action to Disarm (DMG. Also not AL compliant, but fun nonetheless) is beautiful. However to use a Ready action means its already your turn, as you must a) not be Surprised, and b) use up your Action and Reaction to set up the trigger. And at that point you're sorta better off Moving out of the party cluster and just shooting the caster for massive amounts of damage as your party Dashes out into a dispersed anti-caster formation. Sharpshooter is disgusting by the way.

Too bad it is also nullified with the "One Free Interaction with the Environment" part that everyone gets on their turn. Which would be on the wizard's turn to, a) pick up the orb, or b) draw a new spell focus, and keep casting the spell's S and M components with the same, very dextrous, juggling, hand. Otherwise, fantastic design effort on your part — I was really feeling the moment there. (No, I'm not being sarcastic! It sounded like a fun old school game!)

Now if you had two ranged weapon fighters Readied... But then at that point you should have shot the caster dead or within an inch of its life, while also dispersing into anti-caster formation. Hey, Stabilizing the Dying isn't all that hard, and then you can gag and manacle the caster to interrogate at your leisure.

(I know, I'm no fun. )

I did assume you'd win initiative, it's your turn etc etc...
I agree it MIGHT be better to just pound the mage with lots of damage, but that's not necessarily an option at lower levels.
Once you get to higher levels, there's lots of special abilities, feats and so on that are probably better anyway.

AS to AL compatible, I have no interest whatsoever in AL, I only run games with friends, not in AL, which sounds awful.

Regarding using a free action to pick up the focus object.....   well who says it's gonna drop right at his feet? That depends on the environment. If it's a focus orb, it might roll off some distance..
If a caster has a focus object, it's likely they don't have components handy.

Still, we're stating very specific situations and circumstances.. I think in play it'd work, but analysing the minutae in extreme detail I agree can create awkward situations.

As always, it helps to have like-minded players at the table. When people see eye to eye, all sorts of fun can be had. It is also my contention from way back to my earliest post in this topic.

The idea of WWE Royal Rumble 5e sounds awesome to me. To think of spellcasters taking more DEX trying to escape martial classes trying to grab their mouths and pin their hands, it sounds like a comical good time. (Or to some a nightmarish flashback to high school? Dunno.)

That said, I still think the easiest way to handle it for one's home game, without changing the tone of the game drastically, would be to introduce just martial spell interrupt. Have fun!

Quote from: danskmacabre;834292I did assume you'd win initiative, it's your turn etc etc...
I agree it MIGHT be better to just pound the mage with lots of damage, but that's not necessarily an option at lower levels.
Once you get to higher levels, there's lots of special abilities, feats and so on that are probably better anyway.

AS to AL compatible, I have no interest whatsoever in AL, I only run games with friends, not in AL, which sounds awful.

Regarding using a free action to pick up the focus object.....   well who says it's gonna drop right at his feet? That depends on the environment. If it's a focus orb, it might roll off some distance..
If a caster has a focus object, it's likely they don't have components handy.

Still, we're stating very specific situations and circumstances.. I think in play it'd work, but analysing the minutae in extreme detail I agree can create awkward situations.

I understand and sympathize with the lack of desire for Organized Play. That said, of Organized Play formats, AL is really making an effort to include GM flexibility to enliven the game. I may criticize it, but I give tremendous credit to WotC's progress amid the current Organized Play environments.

As for your comments, I hope you don't mind as I comment on them explaining why it doesn't work like you think it does. Most of this comes from actual play experience, much of it from AL's rather competitive and rules exacting crucible. Enjoy!

As for damage at early levels, you can get some disgusting amounts of damage very early on, especially with Human variant and their early Feats. For a start, go calculate the fun of a 1st lvl Human variant Rogue Sharpshooter!

As to the spell focus not dropping at their feet? You are allowed to break up your Move however much you want amid your Action/s and Bonus Action. It would have to fly away further than 30‘, and a wizard in a world with Disarm well known choosing to not drop extra gp for a spare focus/component pouch. Let's just say that example is vanishing unlikely.

Quote from: Omega;834242Assuming those are 5ft squares and some of the PCs get initiative. Then yeah. They can be right there flanking the caster if even just two gets initiative before he casts. Assuming hes level 5 then hed have the Doom example of 2 fireballs to cast. If he doesnt have shaped spell then hes in potentially a lot of  trouble. With it he can point blank fireball them.

Even if they all scatter east and west to the walls he can still blanket them all in the blast radius unless 1 and 2 move north some and might just get outside the range. If 3 and 4 back up some then it gets even more interesting.

Which is a great example of how tactics and/or lack thereof can swing a battle far more than the dice ever could.

Seem to be 5' squares according to the room size.

Greg nailed it.  No matter what the NPCMage does, he is doomed.

If I am running that encounter the NPCMage will instantly surrender, hopefully to live and fight another day.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834295I understand and sympathize with the lack of desire for Organized Play. That said, of Organized Play formats, AL is really making an effort to include GM flexibility to enliven the game. I may criticize it, but I give tremendous credit to WotC's progress amid the current Organized Play environments.

The whole organised play thing sounds way too....ermmm "Organised" for me  .
I run games primarily for fun and if the rules get in the way of doing something cool, especially if a player comes up with some inspired and feasible idea that the rules just get in the way of due to turn sequencing and fine details, then unless it's a sizeable rule breakage, I'll just handwave stuff or RP why a monster or NPC might not maximise his abilities.
 

Quote from: Opaopajr;834295As for your comments, I hope you don't mind as I comment on them explaining why it doesn't work like you think it does. Most of this comes from actual play experience, much of it from AL's rather competitive and rules exacting crucible. Enjoy!

Absolutely fine and it's great to get comments from someone who has clearly an in depth detailed understanding of the rules.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834295As to the spell focus not dropping at their feet? You are allowed to break up your Move however much you want amid your Action/s and Bonus Action. It would have to fly away further than 30‘, and a wizard in a world with Disarm well known choosing to not drop extra gp for a spare focus/component pouch. Let's just say that example is vanishing unlikely.

Oh I'm sure you're right. but TBH, when I run monsters/NPCs etc  that I had an evil plan set up for and a player came up with some cool idea, whilst the mechanics may well allow him to move, pick up the Orb or pull out a spare component pouch, complete the spell and blast the characters.
I'd prefer to RP him being shocked, looking at an arrow sticking out of his arm and not necessarily maximising every single thing he could do according to the strict letter of the rules.  

If it's between the players feeling a glorious victory in a tough fight with enemies and pulling through due to great ideas and using their characters in fun ways, often resulting in cheers of victory and talking about it for weeks after OR
Obeying the exact letter of the rules to the finest detail and playing out NPCs to maximum effect, then I'll go with RP decisions over maximising effect any day.
On the rare occasions I actually play RPGs, I try to do the same with my characters.

But still, thanks for clarifying those points, they were very interesting.

Oh I love coherent, flavorful description that recognizes the consequence of action. You have to explain nothing. I'm a 2e player at heart, so the romance of the breathing world engrosses me more than any gritty, wargaming (or dramatist) logic.

I just know how to do both, just in case.

Quote from: Sommerjon;834372Seem to be 5' squares according to the room size.

Greg nailed it.  No matter what the NPCMage does, he is doomed.

If I am running that encounter the NPCMage will instantly surrender, hopefully to live and fight another day.

Yeah. A single fireball might not drop them, depends on their HP. I'd have to do the math on the chances of that. But assuming some survive if they all charge in its not going to be pretty for the mage. And a single fireball probably will not drop anyone unless someone gets lucky or unlucky.

If they arent all melee types then all some have to do is back up and plink away with arrows while the others engage.

If it were the current group I adventure with then Kefra and I would charge in to melee, Kefra in bear form or variant thereof as its pretty combat effective. Jannet would fall back and let fly the arrows. We might be able to drop him before round 2. But more likely would take longer than that. The second fireball would be worrysome if we were all level 5. I'll ask the others what they think.

Quote from: Omega;834550Yeah. A single fireball might not drop them, depends on their HP. I'd have to do the math on the chances of that. But assuming some survive if they all charge in its not going to be pretty for the mage. And a single fireball probably will not drop anyone unless someone gets lucky or unlucky.

If they arent all melee types then all some have to do is back up and plink away with arrows while the others engage.

If it were the current group I adventure with then Kefra and I would charge in to melee, Kefra in bear form or variant thereof as its pretty combat effective. Jannet would fall back and let fly the arrows. We might be able to drop him before round 2. But more likely would take longer than that. The second fireball would be worrysome if we were all level 5. I'll ask the others what they think.

Ceding to the Mage both initiative and position for a no-collateral-damage fireball that hits every opponent, it looks pretty bad for the Mage. And all without a Wish spell for the Mage's retroactive miscarriage, no less.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834552Ceding to the Mage both initiative and position for a no-collateral-damage fireball that hits every opponent, it looks pretty bad for the Mage. And all without a Wish spell for the Mage's retroactive miscarriage, no less.

Thats ok. We are going to hit him so hard his parents feel it. :cool:

Heres how it went down.
Round 1. Wizard got initiative. Just barely. drops a 27 point fireball on us. Not enough to kill me or Kefra in bear form, but enough to take down Jan if she fails her save. This is where I get hell for not picking up Counterspell. Sorry girls! Luckily we all make our saves. Kefra just barely. 13 damage each. Me and Kefra move in and flank the wizard. Kefra moves first then holds for me to move into position so we both have advantage. I hit twice for 5+4 shield bashing and Kefra hits once for 12 points of angry bear chomping. 21 total. We rolled up 21 HP for the wizard and figured since this guy is alone he must be made of sturdier stuff and so a 16 con maybe, bumping him up to 31 HP. If he were not so sturdy then he would be DOA on the spot. Jan's turn and instead of attacking she uses her Battle Master maneuver of Commander's Strike for both her attacks, giving me and Kef another attack each. I hit and Kefra criticals. Do we even need to roll the damage? 7 & 14. Even without the crit he'd be a splatter.

Assuming Jan had attacked at range instead and somehow failed to off him then next round using the standard initiative system would have seen the wizard maintain his initiative and fireball us again. 24 points. We all make our saves again. 12 more damage. I am still standing. Kef is still standing. Jannet goes down though. The wizard would have gone down this round and then Kef would have to administer to the roast ham. ahem.

That kids was a CR2 encounter. Rated as "Easy" for our group. Which shows you just how potentially brutal even the easy combats can go. If Jan had failed her save she would have gone down without getting to even fire a single shot.

Which brings us back to the topic and why I like this edition so much.

Interesting mechanical introductions, such as with partially using your turn and then holding some for later, and flanking. Are you using houserules or DMG additions? Did Kefra use the Ready action with your arrival as a trigger?