Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834028But again, where are these mages casting from!? In a network of 40X40 rooms and hallways, how did we end up in a situation where all the PC were sitting clustered together, far away from a mage who has no chance of hitting himself with his own fireball? Even if the PCs are caught with their pants down and ALL roll below the mage's initiative in such a manner, how does that ideal fireball situation stay that way for two rounds!?

PCs move, PCs cast spells and use healing abilities, PCs make devastating melee attacks, PCs stand on either side of the mage and make movement for someone trying to position 40ft explosions over all these targets very, very difficult

This is right about where he will claim that you have houseruled all of these things to happen after a spell is cast but before the effects go off.

Whatever good points he has are too obfuscated by the hyperbole, and misunderstanding or mis-characterization of any opposing points.

Having personally experienced PCs (one group all 5th, one group 4th and 5th) doing exactly what you claim PCs would do while facing a Fireballing, Shielding 5th level wizard (not in a specially designed wizard murderhole), and having the PCs be victorious in each occasion (however tense and uncertain each case was), I will continue to go with the actual play experience over white room Doom and gloom on this.

In other shocking news, wizards take a sharp uptick in lethality at 5th level. And by "shocking," I mean "same as it ever was."

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834028We must be running dungeons differently. In my games players generally "catch" NPCs in specific rooms or chambers (rarely that much bigger than fireballs, and while this can sometimes grant home turf advantage, if I'm being realistic about the size and layouts of rooms this rarely makes for perfect fireball turf. If the complex has been 'alerted' and the players are being actively hunted then they also play accordingly, so if they get caught with their pants down then that's just the game.

You seem to have forewarned mages skulking throughout the dungeon and lining up perfect hit-entire-party shots from 150 feet away.

Always the problem when these issues pop up.
Encounters are not always in a dungeon*.

My group(currently 6[4th level]) going through PotA, had a night encounter against the Fire Cult[1 priest CR3(5th lvl caster fire mage) and 6 warriors(CR1/8)] along the road.  This is a medium encounter for them.
Results: 2 dead, 3 unconscious, 1 running away(because Tiefling)
That was from only 1 fireball and 2 Scorching Rays.




*I've never been a huge fan of dungeons.  I find most of them to be rather silly.

Quote from: Sommerjon;834038Always the problem when these issues pop up.
Encounters are not always in a dungeon*.

My group(currently 6[4th level]) going through PotA, had a night encounter against the Fire Cult[1 priest CR3(5th lvl caster fire mage) and 6 warriors(CR1/8)] along the road.  This is a medium encounter for them.
Results: 2 dead, 3 unconscious, 1 running away(because Tiefling)
That was from only 1 fireball and 2 Scorching Rays.


*I've never been a huge fan of dungeons.  I find most of them to be rather silly.

This is the kind of real world, actual play, non-hysterical (counter)-example that makes total sense. We don't need an accounting of how much damage was rolled, or who made what saves, or resort to talking about averages. We know a 4th level party got torn up by a fireballing cultist on the road at night, and that seems totally plausible.  

What was the reason for the use of Scorching Ray rather than a second Fireball? Positioning? Threat appropriate response?

Quote from: Sommerjon;834038My group(currently 6[4th level]) going through PotA, had a night encounter against the Fire Cult[1 priest CR3(5th lvl caster fire mage) and 6 warriors(CR1/8)] along the road.  This is a medium encounter for them.
Results: 2 dead, 3 unconscious, 1 running away(because Tiefling)
That was from only 1 fireball and 2 Scorching Rays.

Yes, outdoors is much, much rougher. That right there is ideal fireball circumstances. Still, scattering and taking advantage of cover, confusion and darkness is also easier outdoors, and even helps against the outclassed 1/8 mooks.

Retreat might also be in order.

Separate thought: Even if a gm is not using dungeons, fighting is still likely to happen indoors a lot too. If we're talking about semi-realistic buildings those are possibly the worst places for fireball targeting and spacing other than underwater.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834033You had me running back to my PHB with the Menacing Strike comment thinking "Yet another thing I missed with the Battle Master!"

Yeah, my bad! Makes me think a maneuver that stops spellcasting for one turn might be cool. But perhaps unfair for spellcasters, especially in conjunction with Mage Slayer.

Quote from: Sommerjon;834038Always the problem when these issues pop up.
Encounters are not always in a dungeon*.

My group(currently 6[4th level]) going through PotA, had a night encounter against the Fire Cult[1 priest CR3(5th lvl caster fire mage) and 6 warriors(CR1/8)] along the road.  This is a medium encounter for them.
Results: 2 dead, 3 unconscious, 1 running away(because Tiefling)
That was from only 1 fireball and 2 Scorching Rays.

Well, obviously the consensus here is your players suck and played horribly. Don't you know as soon as you see a humanoid, you're supposed to scatter in all directions because it might be a spellcaster?

I think next time I put together a Dwarven Forge dungeon, I'll see if I can make every room and hallway so that the party can always set up in such a way that no two characters can be hit with a fireball. Apparently it's how the game is played. I dunno if I can put more than two rooms together, though, my table only seats 8...

Confusion aside, spellcasters are just a bit overpowered, and it isn't "a" fireball that does it at fifth level, it's the doubling up. Even if it's not a TPK, it doesn't mean you are a suckass player (like folks around here believe) if you take casualties in such a fight, it's the issues I've raised earlier.

Quote*I've never been a huge fan of dungeons.  I find most of them to be rather silly.

Heh, yeah, I concede this...but it's a fun trope.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833967That just seems so immersion breaking to me.

Think of it more as the highlights of the various things going on in a round. Jockying for position, parries and riposts, fancy footwork, an attack and all. The rounds focus on "that thing that happened" that round. And theres still opportunity actions, reactions, and such.

Quote from: Weru;833975I only just got my 5e books, and only finished reading the PHB yesterday, so forgive me if these questions are way off point, but . .

Would being grappled limit casters solely to spells that are V, and stop any with the M and S requirements?

Also, how much of a problem is being disadvantaged to a caster?

Standard grapple just stops the target from moving. They can still act.

Grappler in the Feats  section upgrades that to restraining the target (Note that feats in 5e are not the same thing as in 3 or 4.) Unfortunately restrain doesnt actually stop casting or attacking either. WTF?

Disadvantage to a caster in 5e is a real nuisance as a fair number of spells now require a to-hit roll. Situational though as its not as big a problem if you are using mostly auto-hit spells.

Quote from: Doom;834012That's an interesting house rule, I never thought about giving players "cover" from a fireball effect in general (though I did give characters advantage when they were standing in water).

I'll cite for you. It will help everyone.

Cover
Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.
There are three degrees of cover. If a target is behind multiple sources of cover, only the most protective degree of cover applies; the degrees aren’t added together. For example, if a target is behind a creature that gives half cover and a tree trunk that gives three- quarters cover, the target has three-quarters cover.
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three- quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.
A target with total cover can’t be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 74.)

Areas of Effect
Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once.
A spell’s description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has
a point of origin, a location from which the spell’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
A spell’s effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn’t included in the spell’s area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 80.)

Fireball
3rd-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 150 feet
Components: V, S, M (a tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur)
Duration: Instantaneous
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren’t being worn or carried.[...]
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 90.)

The fire spreads around corners, which means within the sphere from point of origin there is no such thing as total cover. However it does not explicitly deny DEX save bonus from cover. Here is an example of a spell that does:

Sacred Flame
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Flame-like radiance descends on a creature that you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 radiant damage. The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw.
The spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 100.)

Quote from: Doom;834012Let's try it this way. So let's forget about this one specific example that I concede isn't very good if players don't have hit points or dungeons don't have walls.

Which of these do you disagree with:

1) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells, at any given level, between long rests than in previous editions?

2) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells a full round, more easily than previous editions?

3) spells objectively do more expected damage per level, than previous editions?

4) spells are objectively harder to interrupt in previous editions?

Those are lots of improvements on spellcasting, which was already pretty dominating in, say 3.5.

I'll answer these.

1) Objectively this is true, due to Cantrips alone.

2) Objectively this is true, due to Bonus Action (and defined Reaction).

3) Objectively this is true, due to bounded accuracy and shift from less to-hit to more to-hit with HP bloat.

4) Objectively this is true, spells are harder to interrupt. Only Counterspell interrupts a spell in casting. And Concentration only interrupts spells already in continuing resolution (or longer casting times, or held readied spell, but is not germane to this discussion).

Quote from: Doom;834012Which of these do you disagree with:

1) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells, at any given level, between long rests than in previous editions?

2) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells a full round, more easily than previous editions?

3) spells objectively do more expected damage per level, than previous editions?

4) spells are objectively harder to interrupt in previous editions?

Those are lots of improvements on spellcasting, which was already pretty dominating in, say 3.5.

1: Definitly no. Casters are down signifigantly from AD&D levels. An AD&D MU had 37 spells at level 20 and a total of 58 at the top end. A 5 e Wizard has 21. Cantrips dont count.

2: Yes, No, Maybe. Depends on the casters loadout. My warlock has no bonus cast spells, Nox's Sorcerer has all of 1 out of the whole 2 his class gets. And both are so situational that he is level 8 now and only used one once. YMMV of course. Kefra's Druid has rarely used healing word as she uses other spells more. And so on. And while you may be able to cast more more more spells a round (2) that means you are depleting your ammo that much faster if it is not a cantrip. And there arent that many bonus cantrips. More does not always equal better.

3: AD&D Magic Missile does 1d4+1 damage, 1 missile/2 levels so 10d4+10 at level 20, 15d4+15 at level 30 and so on. 5e MM does 1d4+1 damage, but you get 3 tight out the gate. But the 5e MM does not advance. The only way to boost it is to blow a higher level spell slot. A level 9 slot then would be 12d4+12. But n AD&D MU has more 1st level slots and doesnt need to blow a level 9 slot to get that level of damage. The 5e Wizard though can blow every single slot on Magic Missiles if varying potency. But then has no spells left.
AD&D Fireball is 1d6/level of caster. 20d6 at level 20, and so on. 5e Fireball does 8d6 damage right out the gate, but like MM, does not advance and needs hither level spell slots to crank up. Using a 9th level slot youd get a 14d6 fireball.

4: Unless a spell has a casting time of longer than 1 action. Spells in 5e are effectively impossible to interrupt now by non-casters or non-mage-slayers. And even casters can only interrupt with something like Counterspell 3 times before they are out of 3rd level slots. On the other hand more 5e spells require concentration and can be potentially interrupted.

In the end 5e casters and 5e spells are... different. But not hugely so. Both sides have their perks.

Quote from: Doom;834056Don't you know as soon as you see a humanoid, you're supposed to scatter in all directions because it might be a spellcaster?

After the first fireball silly . I did already admit fireball out in the open is very rough, no denying.

Quote from: Doom;834056I think next time I put together a Dwarven Forge dungeon, I'll see if I can make every room and hallway so that the party can always set up in such a way that no two characters can be hit with a fireball.

Why do you immediately swing to more hyperbole? All I said was circumstances will very rarely grant you that perfect "top of initiative, double fireball, every party member hit twice, no disruption" scenario for many reasons including terrain, and now you've gone and distorted my position to another extreme. I thought we were moving past this example anyway.

Quote from: Doom;834056Confusion aside, spellcasters are just a bit overpowered...

I can believe this. I've already got my eye on a number of spells and abilities that may be problematic eventually.

Quote from: Doom;834056Even if it's not a TPK, it doesn't mean you are a suckass player (like folks around here believe)

All I implied is that having everyone get hit twice with a 20 foot radius spell that the caster can't afford to be standing in is kind of stupid in a way that typical players aren't. Can it still happen in spite of skill if luck is really, really against you? Yes. Can it still happen if the GM and the game world have come together to create a perfect inescapable shooting gallery for the NPC mage? Yes, but then again a common sneak attacker sent by the PCs' enemies to murder the players in their sleep is also an ideal arrangement of circumstances.

But otherwise players who have a lot of resources at their disposal should be able to figure out something.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833972Meh, I got used to it from 6 sec rounds from GURPS and 3e. But yeah, it can seem strange. Personally hated 3e AoO locking everyone together, with mages dancing around the edges, though.



That's from the small table of allowed Group Modifiers. There's only like 10 possible modifiers. I didn't post the table because I didn't think it critical. And a majority of the group needs to qualify before your group can get it. So if not all of Team Horde received charged, they would not get that group modifier. (And technically I didn't have to give Team Moan its charge modifier, but since they all did the same I gave it to them.)

Do the modifiers apply to teams or individuals? Right now it sounds like all the players would get the same initiative, so do they all go at once? How do you handle that? Does that mean the specific order doesn't matter and you can just make it whatever, between the players?

I GM a table of 8 players and initiative takes forever. I've been looking at other ways to run it.

Maybe seating them in order of highest DEX to lowest and just going by that in default order instead of rolling every time. Then I only have to roll for the monsters.

Ok, I fully concede that doing this could prove me wrong, but I say we take this out of the abstract.

Here's an example of a reasonably ideal circumstance for our hypothetical NPC mage (M):



The PCs (1 = Fighter Battlemaster, 2 = Cleric of Life, 3 = Rogue thief, 4 = Enchantment Wizard) have just stepped through the double door of his spacious 40 x 40 sanctum. The black squares are really thick pillars and there is no other significant cover or complicated terrain.

The PCs have a marching order when there are always clustered together. None of them bothered with stealth or scouting or similar precautions. The hallway behind them stretches really far back for some reason. None of them have any buffs active except mage armor.

M rolls better initiative than all four level 4 PCs (effectively the players have failed one of the rolls that protect them from circumstances like this). He places his fireball in the hall behind the PCs so there is no chance of it hitting him. That's what the red squares represent.

Please note again how ideal this is for M. Let's make it even more ideal by having him deal average damage (28), and have any two PCs fail their save.
The PCs have the following HP
1 = 36
2 = 27
3 = 23
4 = 18

So, how might this scenario play out?
What likely actions could the PCs take? Where will they go?
Where will M move to, and how many opportunity attacks will he take on the way?
How will he position his next fireball so as to hit EVERY post-move PC and not himself?

How will he deal with disabling or negating effects like healing (spells / potions), blindness, silence, command, darkness, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, sleep, menacing attack, rally, etc.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;834081Do the modifiers apply to teams or individuals? Right now it sounds like all the players would get the same initiative, so do they all go at once? How do you handle that? Does that mean the specific order doesn't matter and you can just make it whatever, between the players?

I GM a table of 8 players and initiative takes forever. I've been looking at other ways to run it.

Maybe seating them in order of highest DEX to lowest and just going by that in default order instead of rolling every time. Then I only have to roll for the monsters.

Oh, I am sorry, I take for granted its clarity. Yes, it applies to a whole group. That group is generally defined as the sides of a conflict. So yes, your party of 8 would all act simultaneously on the same initiative — and then all of monsters, if they are the only other opposing side.

Due to Declaration first, then Initiative second, the resolution becomes simultaneous. This means you can have disorganized players run into each other and bottleneck a doorway. Thus formation and ranks returns into importance.

As for handling this at the table:
My best recommendation, never use DEX (or any stat for that matter) for determining resolution on the table. That gets them into stat dependency and gaming their character sheet than engaging the setting. Force them to recognize the value of formation coordination. If they breach formation and move willy nilly there is a very real chance they will get in each other's way.

If you Table Grid it you can resolve this on the board, tracing where they go through which 5' squares. Then in simultaneous resolution they move 5’ at a time, just counting it out like a board game. Thus you resolve any collisions as extra movement required as per 5e rules to move through allies. Just like basic training marches, you quickly learn marching in formation is the fastest way to get a group to do something.

If you Theater of the Mind it, make them describe what they are doing during declaration. So they need to include things like, "I will pause and let So-n-so rush ahead of me across my path, costing me an extra 5’ of movement, then proceed." Or, "I walk in rank with Mr. Y, breaking rank to attack when I reach the first goblin. If it dies and I still have attacks left I continue in X direction for another goblin to smite."

Awesome, I love stuff like this. But what I mean about everybody going at once, don't the players still have to actually tell me IRL their turn actions one at a time?

So Player A says what he's going to do, then Player B, then Player C. Even if all of this is resolved at the same time, the players would know what the others are doing and thus can game it out anyway right? There would be no danger of Player B running into Player A because he already knows what Player A is doing before he declares his own move.

And since the entire side is going at once, but has to tell me their actions in order, how do you decide which order they go in? Is it the same every time? Random?