Quote from: Opaopajr;8339162e's Initiative core system was Group Initiative, Group Modifier, roll each round. So each group would roll a d10, and the group would be assessed if it qualified for a group modifier (usually not applicable). Very fast, one side go, then other side go. And it screwed with gamesmanship royally, because there was no guarantee the dice would favor you next round.

The first optional system was Group Initiative, Individual Modifier, roll each round. Same d10 is used for each group, so rolling and recording takes negligible time. Still very fast, though it shuffled some of the group's members in between depending on their attack methods. Was better for medium-sized battles. It also carried the fog of war.

The second optional system was Individual Initiative Individual Modifier, roll each round. Still d10, but would take more time. However the shuffling was much greater, and then you could do more finesse things, in exchange for a longer combat time. Still fog of war, but better for the small combats. This one is more reminiscent of 3e, except still d10, not d20, and no DEX mod.

Individual Modifier is where you get weapon speeds and spell casting times mattering.

Also, outlier DEX values only mattered for Surprise Checks, no bearing on initiative as per PHB, (suck that, god stat!).

That's a lot of words, but in practice it is waaaay easier. And compared to WotC iterations, far less game-able. Fog of war is a beautiful thing in play.

Wait, could you explain how group initiative / group modifier works? So you roll a d10, and it applies to the entire party? So if I rolled a 6, that's it for all the PCs. But then what's the group modifier if there's no DEX used?

Also what about the monster's side? Does every single monster all go on the same initiative? Or do they roll separately per kind of monster? (Aka, goblins, then hobgoblins, then owl bears, etc)

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833902Fireball is really a tough call in a lot of average rooms and hallways. In my experience (admittedly from prior editions) even the most pyromaniacal players don't usually get to deploy it willy nilly. NPCs can face similar issues.

Actually, a pyromaniacal player will just take spell-shaping and not have to worry about hitting friends with fireballs...it's pretty brutal, and doesn't require retarded houseruling of "players can automatically run 40' in the instant between fireball being cast and it actually going off", which I think is a bit much.

I grant that if players run in all directions, fireballing the whole party after the first round is unlikely, but now we have the "how do they all focus fire and remain in line of sight" issue. It's no biggie, I concede there are all sorts of marginal edge cases every bit as reliable as retroactively wishing for a miscarriage, but I encourage the curious player to simply whip out some of the dungeon maps for published 5e adventures and see that, yeah, most likely players will all be in 40' radius of each other, and won't be able to conveniently move out of that radius AND also all be relevant to the fight.

QuoteRelated thoughts:
- Where are this wizard's allies? How do they stay out of the fireball while still being useful? If the wizard is fighting alone, what's the plan when the party converges on him or spreads around him, making most AOE highly questionable?

Again, I was just pointing out how ridiculously deadly the CR 3 fight is, where outside of marginal cases there's a real chance of a TPK. Toss in some allies, and it gets much more deadly, but also a higher CR. And you can't throw in all the marginal edge cases as legitimate possibilities AND assume he's going to get converged on by the party, especially if he also has allies. The wizard could also just stand in a 5' corridor, or otherwise put himself in a position where getting attacked on all sides is impossible (but, again, it's best just to play the wizard stupidly, and then the encounter would be around CR 3).

Of course, two such wizards is CR 4, and if you think that's a fair fight against four level 4 PCs...

Quote- As soon as the wizard is identified some chunky melee player is going to park themselves right next to him, and since there are no opportunity attacks for circling around someone in 5e, he'll likely make sure he's behind the wizard and away from his party. What does the wizard do, move to a worse position? Take the opportunity attack?

The wizard could just as easily circle around the chunky melee player, right? Well, assuming you don't play the wizard stupidly...and, again, with an AC of 19, the wizard could certainly afford to take an opportunity attack if necessary; it's only a 2 round fight anyway.

Quote- If we're generating a wizard based off of player class and MM assumptions, don't these fuckers have, like, 23 measly hit points at CR 3? Sure he might be burning spell slots on limited AC tricks, but four to five standard 5th level PCs can certainly deal that much damage to a single target in a round. Even a party of non-casters. Have you seen how much a rogue or barbarian can dish out?

Absolutely, if the players get lucky, they can take out the 23 hp, AC 19 mage in one round...but it'll take a bit of luck, since most level 4 characters aren't going to have a +9 to hit bonus at level 4. Going meta here, we're talking 6 attacks, with about a 40% chance of hitting, so they'll have to average 10 points of damage per hit. Totally possible, even at level 4...but this is supposed to be an easy encounter.

Yes, at 5th level, the fight goes from "very dangerous" to "iffy"--if the wizard gets good initiative and rolls good first damage and the party rolls average saving throws, it'll likely be a TPK, but otherwise, there will probably only be one fatality at most, and the party will win, but need a long rest afterwards. I know, CR has never worked well, but that's pretty wacky that it's falling down at "3"...and, again, the problem is spellcasting has gotten even more buffs in the rules.

Yes, a level 5 mage in old AD&D also could fire off a fireball, but he wouldn't have the guaranteed buff of Mage Armor, and the second spell each round of Shield and the slots to spend. Most importantly, it's the second fireball that's the problem, I just don't see why, from a design decision standpoint, if interrupting spellcasting is difficult (outside of counterspell), WoTC gave the spellcasters additional spells and infinite cantrips.


If vampires were constantly being buffed like this, then, compared to the AD&D vampires, 5e vampires would gain immunity to sunlight as a class feature, gain immunity to damage from stakes as another possible class feature,  gain the ability to be any alignment at roll-up, gain immunity to turning at 2nd level, immunity to radiant, holy water, and fire damage at 3rd level, gain quadruple regeneration that can't be stopped by any effect as a "possible" feat at 4th level, gain the ability to polymorph into any creature as a bonus action,  gain additional healing when using level draining attacks, and gain the ability to use level draining attacks when using ranged weapons.

In short, everything that made vampires weak would be removed, and all the strengths would be magnified...and that's pretty much what's happened with D&D spellcasting.

Quote- Dispel and counterspell are 3rd level, right? If the enemy wizard is casting those in self defense, he ain't casting double fireballs.

Nobody said he was, he'll almost certainly cast Shield as the reaction. If he gets the fireball off first, the PC wizardly types will probably go down (the extra damage on the fireball is also problematic here). Even if they just barely survive, they'll get to choose between "hmm, should I try a 50% chance spell, or flee?". Again, it could go either way, but for an "easy" encounter, half the party down or running for their lives after 1 round is brutal, especially when round 2 will almost certainly inflict fatalities...

Yes, if the PC's get high initiative, they can fireball him first...but considering this is supposed to be a fairly easy encounter, "coin toss for a TPK" is a bit much.

Quote- Doom, where did you get that 12d6 number from earlier? Fireball is 8d6, and double fireball is 16d6.

Well, the most likely event in the face of 2 fireballs is a PC will make one save and fail the next...the next most likely event (for most character builds) is fail both.

Grappling isn't quite as effective as one hopes; it won't stop spellcasting, and you can use Dex to escape a grapple (and it's not like the wizard will be putting alot of points into strength). Yeah, keeps the wizard from moving, but you give up an attack for damage to do it. That's a problem, since while you grab the wizard, he's killing your teammates because he can still cast freakin' spells...maybe if the fight were going to last more than 2 rounds, this would be a real consideration, but giving up 100% or 50% of your damaging attacks is alot, for minimal gain...and the wizard can just use Misty Step to automatically escape, if doesn't look like he'll just kill multiple party members instead.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833934You know, I haven't seen any one play Battle Master yet, and I swear I must have read Disarming Attack ten times, and forgotten it ten times.  Thanks for the reminder about it.

I think I kept discounting it because in my head I thought "well, they'll just pick it back up with their free environment interaction."  But the disarmer could obviously just do the same after they disarm it.  Just goes to show you the danger of writing something off without giving it a go.

This is something I was wondering. Suppose that you get disarmed and the weapon falls between you and an enemy.

Can you just use your free action to pick it up, or do you have to contest the other creature for it somehow? It doesn't make sense that you'd be able to just drop your guard and pick something up when someone's right in your face. It would be a free action if nothing else was going on, but in the middle of life and death combat......

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833948Wait, could you explain how group initiative / group modifier works? So you roll a d10, and it applies to the entire party? So if I rolled a 6, that's it for all the PCs. But then what's the group modifier if there's no DEX used?

Also what about the monster's side? Does every single monster all go on the same initiative? Or do they roll separately per kind of monster? (Aka, goblins, then hobgoblins, then owl bears, etc)

You determine according to 'faction side', though you are free to apply it to monster type. Basically it is to simplify battles, and works like a song for complicated mass battles, especially with multiple factions. Let me give examples:

Simple Mid-sized Battle
i.e. 1: 5x PCs v. 12x Goblins. They are on flat ground, not surprised, no other context — thus no modifier. Roll 1d10 for each group, add no modifier, each round. Rd 1, PCs roll 7, Goblins roll 10, PCs go first. Rd 2, PCs roll 8, Goblins roll 2, Goblins go first. And so on.

Multi-faction Large-sized Battle
i.e. 2: 4x PCs (team hero) v. 1x Bugbear 3x Hobgoblins & 8x Goblins (team horde) v. 15x Zombies (team moan). Team Horde overbore Team Hero and was holding them, but Team Moan suddenly appeared in the mid-distance, charging, and is a mutual threat. Team Moan declares Charge getting (-2 init) mod, Team Horde declares to Receive Charge getting (-2 init) mod, and Team Hero declares stuff but is held and first struggling out getting (+3 init) mod.

Rd 1, all 3 groups roll 1d10 each. Team Hero rolls 2 (+3) =5, Team Horde rolls 7 (-2) =5, and Team Moan 6 (-2) =4.

Team Hero and Team Horde are now surrounded with a mutual enemy. However there is an opportunity for Team Hero to pick off some of Team Horde in the ensuing chaos, and possibly ensure escape. Team Horde and Team Hero yell out temp alliances (and plot fog of war betrayals) for next round.

Rd 2, there is no more Team Moan charge, thus no Team Horde receive charge, and no longer Team Hero held, thus no group modifiers. Each GM NPC action is secretly decided, and PCs declare. All 3 groups roll 1d10 each. Team Hero rolls 10, Team Horde rolls 3, Team Moan rolls 7. And so on.
----------------

In 5e initiative that second example would require 5x 1d20 rolls, one for each monster group, and then it would be locked in for future rounds. In 2e initiative that second example needs only 3x 1d10 rolls, and it would change each round. That seems like extra work, but beforehand declaration and each round initiative creates fog of war. That crushes DEX dependency and PC stalling combat between turns for tactical collusion, which speeds up combat tremendously.

I miss those big, messy combats that could be resolved quickly. 3-Way contests or greater make for great roleplay opportunities mid-combat. It handles high volume and multi-factionalism so that the mechanics get out of the way and players can focus on the world dynamics.

I like 5e, but there are things I miss. Thankfully the game is wonderfully moldable in comparison of the WotC offerings.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833963This is something I was wondering. Suppose that you get disarmed and the weapon falls between you and an enemy.

Can you just use your free action to pick it up, or do you have to contest the other creature for it somehow? It doesn't make sense that you'd be able to just drop your guard and pick something up when someone's right in your face. It would be a free action if nothing else was going on, but in the middle of life and death combat......

You can just walk up and pick it up with your free action. The only threat is being within reach and trying to leave it may trigger an Opportunity Attack. Otherwise, there is no penalty, contest, etc.

Remember, everyone's initiative is broken up individually, and ties are deliberately broken (there's a whole PHB follow-up paragraph on suggestions how). And every round is only 6 seconds, so every facet of one's turn is micro-managed into non-overlapping parts unless otherwise stated. Everyone moves discretely, so there's no collisions or unintentional contests.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833966You can just walk up and pick it up with your free action. The only threat is being within reach and trying to leave it may trigger an Opportunity Attack. Otherwise, there is no penalty, contest, etc.

Remember, everyone's initiative is broken up individually, and ties are deliberately broken (there's a whole PHB follow-up paragraph on suggestions how). And every round is only 6 seconds, so every facet of one's turn is micro-managed into non-overlapping parts unless otherwise stated. Everyone moves discretely, so there's no collisions or unintentional contests.

That just seems so immersion breaking to me.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833965Multi-faction Large-sized Battle
i.e. 2: 4x PCs (team hero) v. 1x Bugbear 3x Hobgoblins & 8x Goblins (team horde) v. 15x Zombies (team moan). Team Horde overbore team Hero and was holding them, but Team Moan suddenly appeared in the mid-distance, charging, and is a mutual threat. Team Moan declares Charge getting (-2 init) mod, Team Horde declares to Receive Charge getting (-2 init) mod, and Team Hero declares stuff but is held and first struggling out getting (+3 init) mod.

Rd 1, all 3 groups roll 1d10 each. Team Hero rolls 2 (+3) =5, Team Horde rolls 7 (-2) =5, and Team Moan 6 (-2) =4.

What's this Charge and Receive setting? It just came out of nowhere in your explanation. So that's how they get a modifier?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833967That just seems so immersion breaking to me.

Meh, I got used to it from 6 sec rounds from GURPS and 3e. But yeah, it can seem strange. Personally hated 3e AoO locking everyone together, with mages dancing around the edges, though.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833968What's this Charge and Receive setting? It just came out of nowhere in your explanation. So that's how they get a modifier?

That's from the small table of allowed Group Modifiers. There's only like 10 possible modifiers. I didn't post the table because I didn't think it critical. And a majority of the group needs to qualify before your group can get it. So if not all of Team Horde received charged, they would not get that group modifier. (And technically I didn't have to give Team Moan its charge modifier, but since they all did the same I gave it to them.)

Here's the From Gold to Glory (2e OSR) table. (I also forgot how to do tables... ) It's very reminiscent of the 2e PHB:

Table 8.1: Initiative Modifiers
Situation
Modifier

Hasted
−2

Slowed
+2

High ground
−1

Receive charge
−2

Knee deep water
+2

Slippery footing
+2

Waist deep water
+4

Underwater
+6

Hindered (climbing, tangled, held)
+3

Waiting
+1

Quote from: Doom;833956Grappling isn't quite as effective as one hopes; it won't stop spellcasting, and you can use Dex to escape a grapple (and it's not like the wizard will be putting alot of points into strength). Yeah, keeps the wizard from moving, but you give up an attack for damage to do it. That's a problem, since while you grab the wizard, he's killing your teammates because he can still cast freakin' spells.

I only just got my 5e books, and only finished reading the PHB yesterday, so forgive me if these questions are way off point, but . .

Would being grappled limit casters solely to spells that are V, and stop any with the M and S requirements?

Also, how much of a problem is being disadvantaged to a caster?

Quote from: Weru;833975[...] Would being grappled limit casters solely to spells that are V, and stop any with the M and S requirements? [...]

No. Grappled is a defined condition. Its definition states nothing about tying up both hands of the caster, thus nothing preventing S (somatic) components. It does one bulleted thing, and one bulleted thing only. The other two bullets are strictly about how to get out of the Grappled condition.

Grappled
• A grappled creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't
benefit from any bonus to its speed. (this is all it does)
• The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated
(see the condition).
• The condition also ends if an effect removes the
grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or
grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled
away by the thunder wave spell.

Restrained does more for combat, but it still does not prevent actions or reactions. It specifically does not tie up both hands of casters. And casters only need one hand to perform S (somatic) components. IIRC, Grappler feat merely grants Restrained on one target -- for the price of Restraining yourself. Not that great a trade.

Restrained
• A restrained creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't
benefit from any bonus to its speed.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage,
and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
• The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity
saving throws.

This is the condition you want.

Incapacitated
• An incapacitated creature can't take actions
or reactions.

Yep, that means by Rules as Written, casters get to keep on casting. GMs are free to GM Fiat as they please, but as written that is not how casting is normally prevented. The mechanic to do that would be the Improvise an Action tan box at the end of Actions in Combat section. There a GM would have to adjudicate on the fly how that works in their game.

Quote from: Doom;833956Actually, a pyromaniacal player will just take spell-shaping and not have to worry about hitting friends with fireballs...

Good point. Note that for NPCs however, the examples from the Monster Manual don't get class features like that.

Quote from: Doom;833956it's pretty brutal, and doesn't require retarded houseruling of "players can automatically run 40' in the instant between fireball being cast and it actually going off", which I think is a bit much.

Yes, that is extremely retarded. Have you encountered someone giving their players stuff on silver platters like that?

Quote from: Doom;833956I grant that if players run in all directions, fireballing the whole party after the first round is unlikely, but now we have the "how do they all focus fire and remain in line of sight" issue.

Ranged attacks, ranged single target spells, the toughest characters will be right next to the puny NPC mage so he won't fireball himself (no NPC spell-shaping), etc.

If you rule the PCs in the mage's face grant him cover from PC ranged attacks, then they also grant their allies cover from the mage (+2 on Dex saves).

Quote from: Doom;833956It's no biggie, I concede there are all sorts of marginal edge cases every bit as reliable as retroactively wishing for a miscarriage...

Considerably more reliable and likely, yes.

Quote from: Doom;833956but I encourage the curious player to simply whip out some of the dungeon maps for published 5e adventures and see that, yeah, most likely players will all be in 40' radius of each other...

I am thinking of maps like that, and I conclude from experience the NPC mage will more often than not be within 40' of most of them, so he has to make choices. Fireball himself? Place the fireball in sub-optimal areas so as to exclude himself but only hit two PCs?

Quote from: Doom;833956and won't be able to conveniently move out of that radius AND also all be relevant to the fight.

That's one option for some of the PCs, but really they just have to move so as to put the NPC mage and/or his allies within the fireball radius to stop him.

Quote from: Doom;833956Again, I was just pointing out how ridiculously deadly the CR 3 fight is...

Have you looked at the 5e intellect devourer with its CR 2? There's a long thread about it on TBP or ENworld, forget which. This edition is consciously dangerous again.

Quote from: Doom;833956... where outside of marginal cases there's a real chance of a TPK.

I'll grant you that it's dangerous, especially for inexperienced players, but I don't think those "marginal cases" are anywhere near as marginal as your hyperbole and "wish for miscarriage" comparisons suggest.

Quote from: Doom;833956Toss in some allies, and it gets much more deadly...

But also less fireball-TPK-y (that's an adjective I just made up).

Quote from: Doom;833956The wizard could also just stand in a 5' corridor, or otherwise put himself in a position where getting attacked on all sides is impossible.

Now who's relying on marginal cases?

Quote from: Doom;833956(but, again, it's best just to play the wizard stupidly, and then the encounter would be around CR 3).

Since the players appear to be quite stupid in your examples this is only fair.

Quote from: Doom;833956Of course, two such wizards is CR 4, and if you think that's a fair fight against four level 4 PCs...

Technically two such wizards are CR 5, which comes out to "deadly" difficulty for four level 4 PCs (weren't these guys level 5 PCs in your original example?) So yes, that's not a fair fight, especially if only the NPCs benefit from "marginal cases" and the players are too stupid to do so.

CR calculation courtesy of this site:
http://dhmholley.co.uk/encounter-calculator-5th/

Quote from: Doom;833956The wizard could just as easily circle around the chunky melee player, right?

Again, how big and straight are these rooms and hallways of yours that he has so much room to maneuver and place perfect fireballs that hit all four PCs often enough that it doesn't count as "marginal cases"?

I mean, here's a sample 5e dungeon map. There's cover and corners and doorways and shit (remember, +2 to dex saves). I'm  just not seeing your scenario play out so perfectly for the mage often enough for it to count as more than a "marginal case" by your definition.

http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/hotdq-episode-3-map.png

Quote from: Doom;833956Well, assuming you don't play the wizard stupidly...and, again, with an AC of 19, the wizard could certainly afford to take an opportunity attack if necessary; it's only a 2 round fight anyway.

I will admit, the 19 AC thing is your strongest argument right now. Mage armor and shield together are a total bitch and I resent them.

That said, I notice that in your examples the PCs don't ever seem to have buffs, special abilities, healing spells and shield spells of their own. Again, what's sauce for the goose (NPC mage with no class features) is sauce for the gander (4 PCs worth of tricks, tactics, resources and actions)

Quote from: Doom;833956Absolutely, if the players get lucky, they can take out the 23 hp, AC 19 mage in one round...

Well since we're bringing luck into the equation, the NPC mage can get unlucky and roll terrible initiative (two rounds of PC actions before the second fireball), or roll terrible fireball damage, or have most of the PCs succeed both their saves, or find himself in a really shitty room for area effects, or get snuck up on by the rogue, or fail his save against a crippling spell (no help from mage armor or shield) or battlemaster maneuver, or get cornered and Silenced, etc.

Or is this all "marginal cases"?

 

Quote from: Doom;833956... but otherwise, there will probably only be one fatality at most...

Well, probably not an actual fatality in this edition. Still, this a bit of a downgrade from your "probably TPK", isn't it?

Quote from: Doom;833956and the party will win, but need a long rest afterwards. I know, CR has never worked well, but that's pretty wacky that it's falling down at "3"

Agreed, CR has never worked well.

Quote from: Doom;833956If he gets the fireball off first, the PC wizardly types will probably go down (the extra damage on the fireball is also problematic here). Even if they just barely survive, they'll get to choose between "hmm, should I try a 50% chance spell, or flee?".

Again, what kind of typical battle space are you picturing where a PC mage can't cast Blindness and then run around a corner or cover or "not everyone in fireball radius" with 30 feet of movement? Where was this typical PC mage when the first fireball went off, right in the thick of melee combat range where all good mages should be?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833995Yes, that is extremely retarded. Have you encountered someone giving their players stuff on silver platters like that?

About two or three posts back, that's how someone else seemed to handle this issue.

QuoteRanged attacks, ranged single target spells, the toughest characters will be right next to the puny NPC mage so he won't fireball himself (no NPC spell-shaping), etc.

Weird. In my games we use a grid so the mage really isn't going to fireball himself under any reasonable circumstance.

QuoteIf you rule the PCs in the mage's face grant him cover from PC ranged attacks, then they also grant their allies cover from the mage (+2 on Dex saves).

That's an interesting house rule, I never thought about giving players "cover" from a fireball effect in general (though I did give characters advantage when they were standing in water).

QuoteI am thinking of maps like that, and I conclude from experience the NPC mage will more often than not be within 40' of most of them, so he has to make choices. Fireball himself? Place the fireball in sub-optimal areas so as to exclude himself but only hit two PCs?

The mage doesn't have to be within 40' of the players, fireball has a range of 150'. You must be playing on pretty huge maps. Looking through Rise of Tiamat, the first dungeon (ice dragon lair) doesn't have a single room that isn't completely covered by Fireball, except for the final room, which does have one crack where a player might stand. The second dungeon (mummy tomb) doesn't have a single room that isn't completely covered by Fireball. The third dungeon (green dragon lair) has one room that isn't completely covered by Fireball, again with just barely enough space for 2 players. The fourth dungeon has two rooms out of two dozen, but the players would have to run to all four corners. All these maps have places a mage could stand where he wouldn't be surrounded, including 5' corridors.

So, I reckon we'll just go with YMMV.

QuoteThat's one option for some of the PCs, but really they just have to move so as to put the NPC mage and/or his allies within the fireball radius to stop him.

Or they could just retroactively Wish for a miscarriage...

QuoteHave you looked at the 5e intellect devourer with its CR 2? There's a long thread about it on TBP or ENworld, forget which. This edition is consciously dangerous again.

Again, we're getting so hung up at looking at edge cases in a specific example that the big picture of lots of spells, multiple spells a round, (nearly) uninterruptable spellcasting, and extra damage is the thing being discussed.

QuoteI'll grant you that it's dangerous, especially for inexperienced players, but I don't think those "marginal cases" are anywhere near as marginal as your hyperbole and "wish for miscarriage" comparisons suggest.

Eh, most dungeons have walls, most characters have hit points. I think this comes up often, but I concede ymmv. It's a two round fight, and it's over with the second fireball, "I can hide behind the wizard's toad" just isn't relevant.

QuoteSince the players appear to be quite stupid in your examples this is only fair.

Stupid enough to have hit points, stupid enough to go into dungeons with walls.

QuoteAgain, how big and straight are these rooms and hallways of yours that he has so much room to maneuver and place perfect fireballs that hit all four PCs often enough that it doesn't count as "marginal cases"?

Well, I cited an actual published adventure. Can you cite one where more than half the rooms grant the ability for the party to not sit within a 20' radius sphere?

QuoteI mean, here's a sample 5e dungeon map. There's cover and corners and doorways and shit (remember, +2 to dex saves). I'm  just not seeing your scenario play out so perfectly for the mage often enough for it to count as more than a "marginal case" by your definition.

Even with this houserule, you're still not going to make both saves with any level of reliability. And why can't the wizard get cover also?

QuoteThat said, I notice that in your examples the PCs don't ever seem to have buffs, special abilities, healing spells and shield spells of their own.

Good point, sort of. Is there a special ability that interrupts spellcasting? Is there a buff that most parties would have that prevents fire damage (besides the weak resist elements cleric buff, that requires concentration and to be cast in advance). I totally concede that IF the cleric survives the first fireball, he can bring up a few party members to half health...and then the second fireball will take the party down anyway.

Does shield spell in your campaign block fireballs?

QuoteWell since we're bringing luck into the equation, the NPC mage can get unlucky and roll terrible initiative (two rounds of PC actions before the second fireball), or roll terrible fireball damage, or have most of the PCs succeed both their saves, or find himself in a really shitty room for area effects, or get snuck up on by the rogue, or fail his save against a crippling spell (no help from mage armor or shield) or battlemaster maneuver, or get cornered and Silenced, etc.

Absolutely, all sorts of stuff can go wrong, we're only talking a 30% chance of a TPK here, tops, for an "easy" encounter. Are you positive that's the same as if the party goes up against a single CR 3 minotaur?

And, again, we're so far away from the real issue of lots of spells, multispellcasting, extra damage, very few ways to interrupt spellcasting.

Let's try it this way. So let's forget about this one specific example that I concede isn't very good if players don't have hit points or dungeons don't have walls.

Which of these do you disagree with:

1) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells, at any given level, between long rests than in previous editions?

2) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells a full round, more easily than previous editions?

3) spells objectively do more expected damage per level, than previous editions?

4) spells are objectively harder to interrupt in previous editions?

Those are lots of improvements on spellcasting, which was already pretty dominating in, say 3.5.

I haven't closely followed the debate, but "level-appropriate" (I hate that term, but whatever) monsters with AoEs are absolutely swingier and pose a higher risk of TPK. This includes NPC spellcasters with fireball. This isn't unique to 5e, but it's certainly true of 5e and perhaps to a greater degree than in some previous editions.

In many cases (in my experience), the difficulty of the challenge will come down to initiative. Fighter wins, uses menacing attack, the mage is overrun by the party and never gets a spell off. Rogue gets the drop on the mage and assassinates for an average of 23 points of damage ([2*4.5 rapier] + [2*7 sneak attack] = 23). The monk wins initiative and, if we're back to 5th level, stun locks the mage before he can act.

All of these examples are executed by single PCs, and none involve magic. Alternatively, the mage wins initiative, rolls well on damage, and drops the whole party. It can happen. (It would be extremely unlikely for the mage to get off two fireballs, in my experience, but one could do the job.)

I don't mind the swinginess -- in practice, it means that PCs had better come prepared and gain a tactical advantage if they want to mitigate the risk of fights against opponents with big AoEs. A DM certainly could run fireball ambushes that are essentially traps that can't be detected or disarmed, but I personally don't see the fun in that. And on the other hand, I understand people who prefer mechanics that slow things down, allow actions (including spellcasting) to be interrupted, etc.

ETA: Menacing attack wouldn't stop the spell. Not sure what I was thinking.

Quote from: Doom;834012Weird. In my games we use a grid so the mage really isn't going to fireball himself under any reasonable circumstance.

Yes, what I'm saying is that there are many perfectly common circumstances where the NPC mage can't hit ALL the PCs without fireballing himself, which he generally won't do.

Quote from: Doom;834012The mage doesn't have to be within 40' of the players, fireball has a range of 150'. You must be playing on pretty huge maps.

No, I was implying you are.

We must be running dungeons differently. In my games players generally "catch" NPCs in specific rooms or chambers (rarely that much bigger than fireballs, and while this can sometimes grant home turf advantage, if I'm being realistic about the size and layouts of rooms this rarely makes for perfect fireball turf. If the complex has been 'alerted' and the players are being actively hunted then they also play accordingly, so if they get caught with their pants down then that's just the game.

You seem to have forewarned mages skulking throughout the dungeon and lining up perfect hit-entire-party shots from 150 feet away.

Quote from: Doom;834012Looking through Rise of Tiamat, the first dungeon (ice dragon lair) doesn't have a single room that isn't completely covered by Fireball...

But again, where are these mages casting from!? In a network of 40X40 rooms and hallways, how did we end up in a situation where all the PC were sitting clustered together, far away from a mage who has no chance of hitting himself with his own fireball? Even if the PCs are caught with their pants down and ALL roll below the mage's initiative in such a manner, how does that ideal fireball situation stay that way for two rounds!?

PCs move, PCs cast spells and use healing abilities, PCs make devastating melee attacks, PCs stand on either side of the mage and make movement for someone trying to position 40ft explosions over all these targets very, very difficult

Quote from: Doom;834012Or they could just retroactively Wish for a miscarriage...

Why do you keep exaggerating like this? Seriously, I don't know what this is supposed to mean.

Quote from: Doom;834012Again, we're getting so hung up at looking at edge cases in a specific example that the big picture of lots of spells, multiple spells a round, (nearly) uninterruptable spellcasting, and extra damage is the thing being discussed.

That's fair, but I'm arguing your "two perfectly placed fireballs in a row with all the PCs as sitting ducks with no hitches in the mage's plan" is the edge case.

Quote from: Doom;834012Stupid enough to have hit points, stupid enough to go into dungeons with walls.

Stupid enough to somehow be guileless immobile sitting ducks apparently.

Quote from: Doom;834012Well, I cited an actual published adventure. Can you cite one where more than half the rooms grant the ability for the party to not sit within a 20' radius sphere?

So have I. Where is the mage standing in all of this, and how does he
A) avoid getting mobbed?
B) Maintain line of sight?
C) stay out of his own fireball?
D) Hit every single PC twice?
E) Do all of the above consistently enough for 5e to be broken in this regard?

I think we're going to need to start drawing diagrams.

Quote from: Doom;834012Even with this houserule...

It's not a houserule, read the section on cover and the 'point of origin' rules for spellcasting.

Quote from: Doom;834012... you're still not going to make both saves with any level of reliability.

I don't need to make both saves reliably but that would be nice. What I've been trying to demonstrate is that there are just too many variables for your perfect white-room scenario of "top initiative roll, two fireballs on entire party of unresponsive immobile sitting ducks in a cramped room 60 feet away" isn't anywhere near a given.

Some PCs aren't going to get hit by that second fireball at all.

Quote from: Doom;834012Absolutely, all sorts of stuff can go wrong, we're only talking a 30% chance of a TPK here, tops, for an "easy" encounter. Are you positive that's the same as if the party goes up against a single CR 3 minotaur?

I think 30% is way too high given everything that I and others have said.

I agree CR is not perfect.

Quote from: Doom;834012Let's try it this way. So let's forget about this one specific example that I concede isn't very good if players don't have hit points or dungeons don't have walls.

Skipping over what I believe is sarcasm, yes this specific example is not a good demonstration of your point, and I'm willing to contemplate others.

Quote from: Doom;834012Which of these do you disagree with:

1) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells, at any given level, between long rests than in previous editions?

2) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells a full round, more easily than previous editions?

3) spells objectively do more expected damage per level, than previous editions?

4) spells are objectively harder to interrupt in previous editions?

Those are lots of improvements on spellcasting, which was already pretty dominating in, say 3.5.

1) Yes
2) Not counting pre-3.5 haste style effects? Yes.
3) Yes, but considering that they often didn't do enough damage in previous editions to be worth more than many comparable "save or suck/die" spells, this was an acceptable tradeoff.
4) Mostly yes.

You may win this argument with other examples, but for this one I am unconvinced.

Quote from: Greg Benage;834018I don't mind the swinginess -- in practice, it means that PCs had better come prepared and gain a tactical advantage if they want to mitigate the risk of fights against opponents with big AoEs. A DM certainly could run fireball ambushes that are essentially traps that can't be detected or disarmed, but I personally don't see the fun in that. And on the other hand, I understand people who prefer mechanics that slow things down, allow actions (including spellcasting) to be interrupted, etc.

ETA: Menacing attack wouldn't stop the spell. Not sure what I was thinking.

I second the bolded part. Well, actually I second all of it. If there's not enough swing there's not enough risk, for my dollar.  For the same reason, I second Opa's comments about fog of war and round to round uncertainty about initiative.

You had me running back to my PHB with the Menacing Strike comment thinking "Yet another thing I missed with the Battle Master!"