An idea came to me once and was solidified when I read a post by Zak S:

QuoteGandalf should be using a staff, not a sword
…since one of the things left that separates the fighter from the wizard is the fighter's using better weapons, or at least the fighter gets to add a level-based bonus to a sword attack.
An easy hack around this is to just use class-based damage unless a weapon is specialized. Wizards=d4, Rogue/Druid=d6, Cleric=d8, Fighter/Ranger/Paladin=d10, Barbarian=d12

Another game that I've played (Dungeon World) also does this.

I kind of like it, to be honest. Each class' Hit Die is also their damage die, unless some specific rule overrides it. The damage type, reach and effects vary as they do now (bludgeoning vs piercing etc...).

What do you think? Could this work?

EDIT: I already see a potential problem: two-handed weapons. Uh... how would that work?

And no, as a GM, I wouldn't allow char-op people to carry the smallest weapons possible as a loophole vs. encumbrance...

Quote from: Necrozius;782509EDIT: I already see a potential problem: two-handed weapons. Uh... how would that work?

  The easy fix is to have it add +1 (or a die step; the mathematics work out the same) to damage.

Or you could roll 2 dX with two-handed weapons and keep the better die. It will skew damage to the upper end of the die while keeping the same range of results.

A less favourable ruling would be to steal from Savage Worlds and roll a d3 or d4 along with the class based damage die, keeping the better. All this will do is to make bad rolls of 1 and 2 rarer, and provide diminishing returns of two-handed weapons for higher-damage classes.

That's LBB OD&D/S&W White Box. Old is new, etc.

The idea has been around for a while.

For the encumbrance issue, assume that the damage die per class is for a medium sized weapon. If a small weapon is used the drop down by a die. A d4 would become a d2.

And as, already noted, roll two dice and use the higher die for two handed weapons.

I have been playing around with a homebrew system that uses this as a core damage mechanic. The fighting classes just keep getting bigger damage dice(and multiple dice at high level) instead of more attacks. That way there is an ever increasing effectiveness without bogging down the action economy.

Whoa. Awesome ideas! Thanks!

It would also depend on how you handle shields. In a game where shields are just plain +1AC, it would be better balanced to give two-handed weapons something is equally nice but not decisive (like +1 damage, one die size up, oder "d3/d4 + dX, keep the best").

If you beef up shields to be more than -5% to hit (with a free shield bash as bonus attack, or Shields Shall Be Splintered, or whatever), you can likewise go wild with two-handed weapons and still keep both sword&board and zweihänder as viable choices.

So far I'm working with this:

1. Damage die is determined by class. My initial guess is that this is the same as their Hit Die type (Fighter is d10, Wizard is d6, although my instinct would have been d4, but I'll go with simplicity here). Barbarians get d12 (!).

2. Versatile weapons "bump" up damage die by one level (d6 to d8, d10 to d12 etc..). (not sure what to do with the Barbarian - I don't have any crazy Dungeon Crawl Classics dice..)

3. Small weapons, conversely, bring the damage die DOWN by one level.

4. Two-handed weapons mean roll twice and pick highest result.

5. I really, really like the idea of just adding an extra die of damage instead of extra Attacks (thanks Exploderwizard). Could that work?

6. Shields: ?? Still thinking this one through (thanks for highlighting that one, Skyrock).

Quote from: Necrozius;7825585. I really, really like the idea of just adding an extra die of damage instead of extra Attacks (thanks Exploderwizard). Could that work?

  Rumor is this will be a variant in the 5E DMG, so if you're willing to wait two and a half months to see how they handle it ...

Quote from: Necrozius;782558So far I'm working with this:

1. Damage die is determined by class. My initial guess is that this is the same as their Hit Die type (Fighter is d10, Wizard is d6, although my instinct would have been d4, but I'll go with simplicity here). Barbarians get d12 (!).

2. Versatile weapons "bump" up damage die by one level (d6 to d8, d10 to d12 etc..). (not sure what to do with the Barbarian - I don't have any crazy Dungeon Crawl Classics dice..)

3. Small weapons, conversely, bring the damage die DOWN by one level.

4. Two-handed weapons mean roll twice and pick highest result.

5. I really, really like the idea of just adding an extra die of damage instead of extra Attacks (thanks Exploderwizard). Could that work?

6. Shields: ?? Still thinking this one through (thanks for highlighting that one, Skyrock).

Bigger / smaller weapons are adequately handled through them being, well, bigger; harder to hide, harder to be precise with. While a smaller weapon has a shorter striking range, so you'd need to be closer and more vulnerable to use it.

If two-handed weapons roll twice for damage, that has a bit of a diminishing returns effect, allowing the classes with better damage dice to take shields (And thus survivability) without losing much damage; it makes them more versatile. Conversely, it encourages the weaker types to take weapons they aren't so good at, if they want to keep up the damage (Which will make them fragile), or go for a shield (Which will make them weak).

Quote from: Ladybird;782592Bigger / smaller weapons are adequately handled through them being, well, bigger; harder to hide, harder to be precise with. While a smaller weapon has a shorter striking range, so you'd need to be closer and more vulnerable to use it.

Very true: wielding a two-handed hammer in a crowded hallway would be disadvantageous.

Quote from: Ladybird;782592If two-handed weapons roll twice for damage, that has a bit of a diminishing returns effect, allowing the classes with better damage dice to take shields (And thus survivability) without losing much damage; it makes them more versatile. Conversely, it encourages the weaker types to take weapons they aren't so good at, if they want to keep up the damage (Which will make them fragile), or go for a shield (Which will make them weak).

Also a good point. I'm afraid that I'm quite terrible at juggling mechanics like this. Would Skyrock's suggestion counter this issue?

Quote...roll a d3 or d4 along with the class based damage die, keeping the better. All this will do is to make bad rolls of 1 and 2 rarer, and provide diminishing returns of two-handed weapons for higher-damage classes.

Quote from: Necrozius;782558I don't have any crazy Dungeon Crawl Classics dice...

That's your biggest problem, all else can be remedied.

Quote from: Ladybird;782592If two-handed weapons roll twice for damage, that has a bit of a diminishing returns effect, allowing the classes with better damage dice to take shields (And thus survivability) without losing much damage; it makes them more versatile. Conversely, it encourages the weaker types to take weapons they aren't so good at, if they want to keep up the damage (Which will make them fragile), or go for a shield (Which will make them weak).

The system is designed exactly because of that. Martial characters should have more versatility and options as far as armor & weapons are concerned.

The weaker types of characters will have other abilities that don't involve hitting something with a weapon.


EDIT:

The entire idea behind this whole treatment is to remove much of the focus and damage properties of individual weapons and instead base damage largely on the skill of the one wielding them. It is an idea strongly tied to the abstraction of class.

Quote from: Necrozius;782595Also a good point. I'm afraid that I'm quite terrible at juggling mechanics like this. Would Skyrock's suggestion counter this issue?

You'd need to run the numbers, produce spreadsheets with all the possible die rolls and what results they give, and see if they're what you like. For this it's pretty simple, you can just write out all the combinations and produce tables from there.

Comparing max(d4,d6) and max(d6,d6) gives mean averages of 3.9 and 4.4 respectively (Versus a mean average of 3.5 for d6 rolls); max(d4,d6) has mode average 4, while max(d6,d6) has mode average 6.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;782599The system is designed exactly because of that. Martial characters should have more versatility and options as far as armor & weapons are concerned.

You misunderstand, I think that's a good thing. It makes fighters better because they can do high damage and survive, while non-fighters can do high damage or survive.

What do people think of pairing up the damage die with a class' Hit Die?

It seems like a clean and simple concept ("HIT" die, am i right?).

BUT, what would the Barbarian do if they use a Versatile weapon? What would the next step-up for d12 be?

Options:

- make it a d14 (either buy DCC dice or roll a d20 and re-roll if the result is 15+)

- [EDIT: this wouldn't work well, so scrap this from the record] go super fucking METAL and make it d20. It's the goddamn Barbarian, after all!

- make it a combo of d8 + d6 for a range of 2-14 (thanks Exploderwizard)