I'm interested in supplements on building credible and useful/enjoyable economies in RPGs, or books that have helpful sections on this.

I ran a Mutants and Masterminds game sometime back that was a little lacking in the economy department.  M&M doesn't really seem set up for much crunch in this area (for genre reasons, if I recall) and part of what the party ended up wanting to do was build a subterranean redoubt.  Which was cool, and M&M had plenty of stuff for the secret ninja base itself, but there was next to nothing on the sort of commerce that would go into stocking and maintaining such a thing.

Looking for advice on:

• Ballpark expense ratios at different standards of living in different eras/levels of industrialization.
• How common social pressures cause macro level changes in what buying stuff looks like to the players
• Gotchas
• What sort of things players expect the economy to be/do, and not be/not do.

The GURPS Low Tech is about as closest thing you can get to a comprehensive treatment of technology and economics. The rest are focused on specific genres. Like Adventurer, Conqueror, King. Harnmaster, or the Magical Medieval Society series by Expeditous Retreat Press.

BECMI D&D is about all I can think of that has any rules for the assembly and upkeep of a stronghold or kingdom.

ooooh!

And the Town as a PC rules from d20 Modern Gamma World!

Those were fun!

Take a look at Full Metal Platemail by Leonaru- and it's free

Quote from: Alathon;782949

• Ballpark expense ratios at different standards of living in different eras/levels of industrialization.
• How common social pressures cause macro level changes in what buying stuff looks like to the players
• Gotchas
• What sort of things players expect the economy to be/do, and not be/not do.

Agnus Maddison wrote seminal work on issue "The World Economy: a millenial perspective" and you should read it because it is beginning of all studies on subject. His other works and related studies are also good (mostly published by OECD) . See also: http://www.theworldeconomy.org/

There are three RPG related products that are worth reading:

GURPS Low Tech is the holy grail here. It is very well written and gives much of the data you are interested in. Buy also all extras to it as they describe issues even more. It has also quite good list of additional sources.

Orbis Mundi and Farm, Forge and Steam (Phalanx Game Design) have excellent information and gotchas to look at.

Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe (Expeditious Retreat Press) is also very good.

For medieval/Arthurian, Pendragon has a good section on economy starting at the local level and building up to counties and kingdoms. It's in the Nobles book in the old version and included in the main rules in the newer editions.

Quote from: Bren;783451For medieval/Arthurian, Pendragon has a good section on economy starting at the local level and building up to counties and kingdoms. It's in the Nobles book in the old version and included in the main rules in the newer editions.

Lordly Domains was an expanded successor to the Nobles Book.

C&S and The Chivalry & Sorcery Sourcebook was the  big thing  earlier, heavier on possibly realistic calculations, lighter on what I would call the really fun stuff (but ymmv).

Cities from Midkemia Press is  a real classic for all things to do with ancient/medieval cities with sword-and-sorcery trappings. In the age of the interweb, though, I reckon articles on acres of farmland per thousand inhabitants and such are easy to come by without buying a book.

Likewise actual medieval prices such as those listed in Fantasy Wargaming (which was really much more preoccupied with "divine" economy).

Is it just me, or does it seem that serious economic treatments in rpgs are far more common in games with a pre-19th century or far-future basis than in 19th-20th c.?

Thanks! This is a pretty sweet reading list, and I picked up GURPS low tech after a brief examination -- it looks like a good starting point for me.

Quote from: Phillip;783465Is it just me, or does it seem that serious economic treatments in rpgs are far more common in games with a pre-19th century or far-future basis than in 19th-20th c.?

As we move farther away from our own time, where most people have some understanding of economics (and probably believe they have more that some), it is probably easier to create something that most players won't complain about or reject as obviously unrealistic.

The upcoming Albion OSR-setting book will have a chapter on Economy that will use realistic 15th-century wages and prices.

Likewise, there will be a chapter on Noble family management, but it will be fairly abstract, no micro-managing on the Rules Cyclopedia level.

Quote from: Phillip;783465Is it just me, or does it seem that serious economic treatments in rpgs are far more common in games with a pre-19th century or far-future basis than in 19th-20th c.?

Economists understand the Malthusian economy. Nobody understands the 19th-21st century economy. (source: Greg Clark A Farewell to Alms)

Quote from: Bren;783478As we move farther away from our own time, where most people have some understanding of economics (and probably believe they have more that some), it is probably easier to create something that most players won't complain about or reject as obviously unrealistic.

There is a lot of empirical statistics for economics made in pre-industrial age (reliable statistics become available in 1600 onwards for a lot of Europe) and a lot of basic calculations about life in agrarian society where trade is very low are simple. Plenty of that can be fairly easily extrapolated to about 1300 and even earlier (with some caveats) to perhaps 1000.

However, things get awfully difficult when you start talking about Romans and time before them. Most real studies about those times are essentially educated guesses (just look at the different estimates of population of Roman Empire and how they are done).

Extrapolating future is trivial but guessing changes brought by technological advances and social structures are very hard. For example current trade theories about US-China trade worked superbly well until about 2000 (and changes since then are still being studied). Similarly concepts like social capital are effectively educated guesses rather than "laws" so industrial economy is difficult to simulate.