One of the things I loved about 2nd edition was at a certain point, you stopped being driftless nobodies murdering random passerbyers for the lint in their pockets and a hope of a slightly less worn pair of boots, and became Somebody.
Your deeds had weight, you attracted followers, built keeps, raised churches and taught townsfolk the need to invest in better locks.
3rd edition treated that like it did everything else, pretend it was a pornstar's asshole and bleach the hell out of it. I've no idea how 4th dealt with it, because I never played it. Tried, always quickly got bored.
How does 5th handle it? Does it at all? Or is it a small sidebar that boils down to "make shit up"?
Make shit up. However, this is coming soon (and yes, Colville delivers product):
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/255133215/strongholds-and-streaming
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1027188How does 5th handle it? Does it at all? Or is it a small sidebar that boils down to "make shit up"?
In the core rules, it isn't even a sidebar. It's not even mentioned, and it is presumed that the characters will continue to adventure through 20th level. With some of the optional stuff in the DMG (such as some of the "boons"), it's vaguely implied, if you are familiar with some of the earlier editions, but all of that stuff could be used just as well in the adventure mode.
I was looking at the RC "War Machine" rules just last night, with an eye towards adapting them. I think that would be fairly easy. I've built some of those ideas into the setting I'm running now. Because that is one of the strange things about 5E--the core chassis could accommodate such things easily, same as BECMI/RC or AD&D. They just haven't bothered to do them.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1027189Make shit up. However, this is coming soon (and yes, Colville delivers product):
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/255133215/strongholds-and-streaming
I might have to buy that. Assuming I ever play it.
Totally agree with OP, but I have always felt this sort of play should start at the outset of a campaign rather than wait until everyone is 9th level or whatever. Games that recognize social hierarchies and property ownership are just much more interesting (e.g., Flashing Blades, Chivalry and Sorcery)
My 5e sandbox game is heavily stronghold/domain/political these days:
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The Empire of Altanis-Nerath has fractured only four months after its inception at the end of the Black Sun War, with Namelin Bronze of Hara declaring himself King of Restored Nerath, the Golden Queen Malenn Paladin of Mitra now ruling in Ahyf, the Altanian tribes under Minars Rapak of Seawolf in the north, and the Ghinarian Lords' Alliance loosely united under Kaldrac of Verius in the Ghinarian Hills.
All those guys are NPCs, but Malenn is the wife of a recently retired PC, Hakeem Godslayer the level 20 Barbarian, and she succeeded PCs Sandor Sunneson (Barb-13) and before him Shieldbiter the Dragonborn (Barb-17) as ruler of Ahyf town. Lots of trampling jeweled thrones IMC. :D Meanwhile the eastern priestess Prisha Acharya (PC Cleric-9) has brought a new 'love' cult to Carchimish, and gained great influence over old King Koloth and his daughter Princess Lyssana there.
I haven't really felt any need for specific dominion rules, but I have looked to 1e and BX for a few things such as Follower numbers.
I like this rule set from the DM's Guild:
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/207377/WH-Fortresses-Temples--Strongholds-rules-for-building-and-customizing-playerowned-structures (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/207377/WH-Fortresses-Temples--Strongholds-rules-for-building-and-customizing-playerowned-structures)
Quote from: S'mon;1027199My 5e sandbox game is heavily stronghold/domain/political these days:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2258[/ATTACH]
The Empire of Altanis-Nerath has fractured only four months after its inception at the end of the Black Sun War, with Namelin Bronze of Hara declaring himself King of Restored Nerath, the Golden Queen Malenn Paladin of Mitra now ruling in Ahyf, the Altanian tribes under Minars Rapak of Seawolf in the north, and the Ghinarian Lords' Alliance loosely united under Kaldrac of Verius in the Ghinarian Hills.
All those guys are NPCs, but Malenn is the wife of a recently retired PC, Hakeem Godslayer the level 20 Barbarian, and she succeeded PCs Sandor Sunneson (Barb-13) and before him Shieldbiter the Dragonborn (Barb-17) as ruler of Ahyf town. Lots of trampling jeweled thrones IMC. :D Meanwhile the eastern priestess Prisha Acharya (PC Cleric-9) has brought a new 'love' cult to Carchimish, and gained great influence over old King Koloth and his daughter Princess Lyssana there.
I haven't really felt any need for specific dominion rules, but I have looked to 1e and BX for a few things such as Follower numbers.
I need to subscribe to your newsletter apparently. :D
5e DMG has some rules for both running a business and owning land. Think there is also some rules for siege engines or damaging objects like walls. UA adds in a mass combat ruleset and Xanithar's Guide adds in some variant business rules.
Its possible WOTC sectioned that off into the WizKids 5e D&D minis Wargame? I have not seen it yet so can not say what all it can do?
I really ought to take a look at the dmg.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1027270I need to subscribe to your newsletter apparently. :D
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=70130&p=1918803#p1918803
:D
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1027302I really ought to take a look at the dmg.
Chapter 6 has the Recurring Expenses section which covers things like the gost for running various types of establishments and buildings.
Next page has... Building a Stronghold.
And the next page over has Running a Business.
At the end of the Treasure and Magic Items section is a brief note on awarding titles, land and Strongholds. Not optional. Its part of the main rules.
Over in chapter 8 is a section on Objects, listing AC and HP based on material and size. And really big objects are not harmable by normal weapons. A few pages later theres a section on... Siege Engines. None of this in the options section. In fact theres actually nothing in the variants section for use with strongholds.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1027302I really ought to take a look at the dmg.
You really should. I assumed you'd already read it an wanted something with more meat.
Quote from: KingCheops;1027390You really should. I assumed you'd already read it an wanted something with more meat.
I like to play and my buddy likes to DM. Works well. And the last two iterations of tbe DMG put me to sleep with all the charts and tables.
Quote from: Omega;1027370Chapter 6 has the Recurring Expenses section which covers things like the gost for running various types of establishments and buildings.
Next page has... Building a Stronghold.
And the next page over has Running a Business.
At the end of the Treasure and Magic Items section is a brief note on awarding titles, land and Strongholds. Not optional. Its part of the main rules.
Over in chapter 8 is a section on Objects, listing AC and HP based on material and size. And really big objects are not harmable by normal weapons. A few pages later theres a section on... Siege Engines. None of this in the options section. In fact theres actually nothing in the variants section for use with strongholds.
I think the big lacuna in 5e DMG for domain/lord play is the lack of follower rules for high level PCs. So I've been adapting the 1e DMG rules, which work well - eg I rolled on the Fighter table for a Barbarian-14. I use the Thief guild rules for Rogues establishing networks. For a Cleric establishing an urban temple I used a formula for cult followers = (level + CHA bonus)x5 - but if she establishes a proper holy fortress I'd probably use the DMG armed followers table for her too.
For PC-class Henchmen I'm also using the 1e DMG rules, with a level limit of 1 per Tier, which closely matches the DMG limits. So:
PC Level > Henchie level
1-4 > 1
5-10 > 2
11-16 > 3
17-20 > 4
20+Boon > 5
Max number of henchmen = CHA bonus+2, so from eg 1 at CHA 8 to 7 at CHA 20.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1027471I like to play and my buddy likes to DM. Works well. And the last two iterations of tbe DMG put me to sleep with all the charts and tables.
Ah that explains it. I'd have to say this one was actually pretty good. Definitely better than 3/4e and more like older versions.
All that is in the 5th ed. DMG? REALLY? I read it and missed all that. I found it really dull with slmost nothing I was interested in.
Clearly I need to take a second look.
There's stuff in the 5e DMG but it's like 2 pages. One page for costs of building keeps, and one for expenses of running them, but nothing about what it all means or what you can do with them.
Someone who was new and reading that would have no idea WHY you would want any of that since it does not explain it and offers no benefits.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1027593There's stuff in the 5e DMG but it's like 2 pages. One page for costs of building keeps, and one for expenses of running them, but nothing about what it all means or what you can do with them.
Someone who was new and reading that would have no idea WHY you would want any of that since it does not explain it and offers no benefits.
1e doesn't do a great job on benefits either. Just the 5/7/9 sp/person/month in the PHB (at 20 sp = 1 gp).
The good thing Colville does is share all of the oral history and cultural tradition, the tribal knowledge, around these things, that the rules don't for modern players.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1027593There's stuff in the 5e DMG but it's like 2 pages. One page for costs of building keeps, and one for expenses of running them, but nothing about what it all means or what you can do with them.
Someone who was new and reading that would have no idea WHY you would want any of that since it does not explain it and offers no benefits.
Actually in the book it does explain some of the whys. And keeping it simple as a backdrop and downtime activity is good for a starting DM. They likely arent going to get to domain level stuff for a a good while. If ever. Whole campaigns go by and the players might never bother with a castle or armies. Same as many players not bothering with henchmen and hirelings.
I agree, but being able to see what the possibilities are sometimes helps make them become real.
If you never know things are an option, then you'll never dream up scenarios where you can use them or develop a desire for them.
Compare that with players salivating at different magic items they might find.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1027593There's stuff in the 5e DMG but it's like 2 pages. One page for costs of building keeps, and one for expenses of running them, but nothing about what it all means or what you can do with them.
Someone who was new and reading that would have no idea WHY you would want any of that since it does not explain it and offers no benefits.
Although, as long as it isn't seriously discouraged IME the vast majority of brand new players seem to try some version of this playstyle. I have seen it in many live-plays and in my own experience with new-to-ttrpg players, though to be fair it seems they are more likely to buy an inn or tavern than a castle. It is only when the GM, system, or other players slap them on the wrist for doing something that nobody ever enjoyed and wasn't pre-planned as part of the story, that they need to be encouraged in the future.
The Pathfinder book Ultimate Campaign is all about kingdom building. It has its own mechanics, so should adapt to 5e reasonably well enough.
I think my 5e Domain rules are complete enough for use now.
I wanted something about as complex as Mentzer's Companion Set rules, but without a direct 1:1 correlation between population and income. Total population is used for full mobilisation in wartime - civilised areas can levy 10%, martial 25%, barbaric 33% - but adding more people to an area does not linearly increase income, and mineral resource income is independent of population.
Professional military recruitment uses a variant of the 1e Follower rules, hiring of expensive professional mercenary companies, or a citizen levy for no more than 40 days/year.
Province (Hex) Resource Production by Population Level (PL) (1-8)
NB: A province occupying half or less of multiple hexes with total land area less than 1 full hex (eg Ahyf) counts as a standard 1-hex province.
Province's Population Centre : Base Tax Production; Base Ruler Net Income
1.Thorpe (20-79) : 100gp; 10gp
2.Hamlet (80-319) : 250gp; 25gp
3.Village (320-1,249) : 500gp; 50gp
4.Small Town (1,250-4,999) : 1000gp; 100gp
5.Large Town (5,000-9,999) : 2000gp; 200gp
6.Small City (10,000-19,999) : 4000gp; 400gp
7.Large City (20,000-39,999) : 8000gp; 800gp
8.Metropolis (40,000+) : 16000gp; 1600gp
Hexes are 15 miles. Base Tax Production & Ruler Net Income is per Month, in gold pieces. Ruler Net Income is free droit de seigneur for the ruler's personal use inluding gifts and levies, & may be taken in cash, healing potions, gear, common & uncommon magic items, etc.
DOMAIN RESOURCES
Resources normally take 3 months to begin production.
Resource lnitial Cost Production
Mineral Resources
Mineral - Mine (low) 3000gp 250gp/month (Requires Ore, eg Iron)
Mineral - Mine (high) 3000gp 500gp/month (Requires Silver/Gold/Platinum)
Mineral - Smelter 6000gp 500gp/month (Requires Mine, Low)
Mineral Market (low) 3000gp 250gp/month (Requires trade route to Mine, Low)
Mineral Market (high) 3000gp 500gp/month (Requires trade route to Mine, High)
Vegetable Resources
Vegetable - Logging Camp 3000gp 250gp/month (Requires Forest)
Vegetable - Sawmill 6000gp 500gp/month (Requires Logging Camp or water access)
Vegetable - Fields 1000gpxPL 100gp/monthxPL (Requires Plains/Meadows)
Vegetable - Wine 2000gpxPL 200gp/monthxPL (Requires Hills)
Animal Resources
Fishmarket 1000gpxPL 100gp/monthxPL (requires sea/lake)
Meat Market 1000gpxPL 100gp/monthxPL (eg beef, pork; requires Fields & no coast)
Slave Market 2000gpxPL 200gp/monthxPL (requires trade route)
Port Resources (requires Small Town & Harbour)
Coin Girls 1000gpxPL 100gp/monthxPL
Fighting Pits 1000gpxPL 100gp/monthxPL
UTILITY COSTS
Levy Armoury: 2000gpxPL 200gp/monthxPL
Signal Tower: 3000gp + 250gp/month
Supply Cache: 2gp per person per week of stored supplies
Chapel or Arcane Tower (Clr-1 or Wiz-1): 1500gp - 1 month, requires hamlet
Temple or Arcane Guildhall (Clr-5 or Wiz-4): 9000gp - 4 months, requires small town
Cathedral or Arcane University (Clr-8 or Wiz-9): 30,000gp - 12 months, requires small city
Druidic equivalents are Druidic Grove (max PL 3, Druid-1), Stone Circle (max PL 2, Druid-4), & Sacred Mound (max PL 1, Druid-7).
Spy Gang: 1500 gp, 1 month, level 1 Rogue, requires hamlet
Spy Mob: 9000 gp, 4 months, level 5 Rogue, requires small town
Spy Cartel: 30,000 gp, 12 months, level 8 Rogue, requires small city
Equivalents exist for other classes, eg a Paladin's Shield Hall.
Ruling Court Cost base = Base Tax Production - Ruler net income
Military Cost (includes officers) per man-month
Tribal & Levy Infantry: 6gp/month: 3gp per man at 1 sp/day (food), +3gp to officers.
Infantry, Professional: 9 gp/month: 6gp per man at 2sp/day, +3gp to officers.
Infantry, Elite (eg Longbowmen): 14gp/month: 9gp per man at 3sp/day, +5gp to officers.
Hobilars: 18gp/month: 12gp per man at 4sp/day, +6gp to officers.
Light Cavalry: 27gp/month: 18gp per man at 6sp/day, +9gp to officers
Heavy Cavalry: 36gp/month: 24gp per man at 8sp/day, +12gp to officers
Followers normally come pre-equipped and trained, and can be deployed in 1 month. Other troops may need to be equipped and trained (taking normally 2-3 months) before deployment.
Mercenaries: Trained & equipped mercenary units hired for a specific campaign have negotiated pay. They usually cost at least 3 times as much (plus looting rights) for a 3-month contract, and may cost up to 10 times as much. Elite units may charge +50% or more.
Sample Dominion:
Ahyf (Small Town, Ghinoran/Antillian): Queen Malenn from M8 4447. pop. 7,000 (dominion) PL 4.
Resources: Mineral Market (Low) 250 gp/m, Fields (disrupted) 400>200gp/m, Fishmarket (restored) 200>400gp/m, Coin Girls (disrupted) 400>200gp/m. Total: 1050 gp/m > 1450gp/m.
Standing Military: 40 Town Watch (infantry): 40x9=360gp/m. 60 City Guard (infantry) 60x9=540gp/m. 20 Battle Brothers of Mitra (hobilars): 20x18=360gp/m. Total -1260 gp/m.
I think the bit I like best about this is I have a single figure if the PC ruler just wants to sit back and take income. Eg Ahyf as a dominion with a small town is PL4, so the ruler gets a free 100gp/month to play with without having to worry about it.
I have Birthright to crib ideas from. After that I can use 5e Basic PHB's Ch. 8 Adventuring for exploration and pacing. That said, there's a few tables and ideas in 5e DMG that seems to give added value over 5e Basic DMG/MM... I might pick it up one day if it was much cheaper.
The 5e DMG has tons of useful stuff, just not usually in a lot of detail.
My ACKS just arrived! :cool: Going to peruse it now...
Quote from: S'mon;1028138My ACKS just arrived! :cool: Going to peruse it now...
If it's "strongholds" you're interested (or domain management in general) it's quite good.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028413If it's "strongholds" you're interested (or domain management in general) it's quite good.
Yes, that's what I bought it for.
Had a pretty good look at it now, it's fun seeing all the sources it ripped off/borrowed from... Macris clearly has a very similar approach to mine, so it's all nice and accessible. The numbers are transparent enough that they're very easy to tweak, eg to reduce the Classic D&D style gold standard to more of a silver standard. It's nice to see a trade system in the core, and I like the Markets ranking I-VI used for hiring as well as trade. I won't use much of it as written I think, but it'll be a handy reference volume for my 5e campaign.
I don't think I'd ever run ACKS, but I could see situations where I could borrow from it.