A caster is in melee with an enemy who wants to hit them.
Do they have to make any special roll to cast a spell whilst in melee range?
I know if they take damage whilst trying to concentrate on a spell they have to make a concentration check.
I also know if the spell requires an attack roll or something, it's at disadvantage if they're in melee, much like when firing a missile weapon whilst in melee.
Does casting a spell generate an attack of opportunity or something?
Is the AC lowered, such as removing DEX
casino bonus?
Does the caster need to make some sort of check to get off a spell in melee?
Yeah, by the book it's just disadvantage on ranged attacks (either missile or spell) if you're within 5 feet of an active foe.
OK thanks, I had a good look through the PHB and that's all I could see.
I just wanted to be sure I didn't miss anything.
It seems it's easier to cast spells in melee now.
If you're using Feats, one of them ("Mage Slayer") gives you the following:
1) You can make an opportunity attack against anyone within 5' who casts a spell (it doesn't disrupt the spell, but it will obviously be a discouragement to casting in melee).
2) When you hit someone who's concentrating on a spell they get Disadvantage on their saving throw to avoid disruption.
3) You have Advantage to saves against spells cast by anyone within 5' of you.
Keep in mind that a spell attack is defined as either a spell ranged attack or a spell Melee attack. As stated earlier, spell ranged attack are at a disadvantage if cast within 5 feet of an opponent. A spell Melee attacks require the caster to be in Melee range.
5e is careful about spelling this out in the spell's description.
Spell melee includes Shocking Grasp among others that do not impose disadvantage also I am pretty sure you could use a familiar to deliver a spell. War Caster helps with concentration and a couple other things also in mid levels the Eldritch Knight imposes disadvantage on any spell they use after a successful physical melee/ranged hit.
So yes, they are typically fine with doing the Bladeinger thing once they hit the appropriate levels.
Quote from: estar;786155Keep in mind that a spell attack is defined as either a spell ranged attack or a spell Melee attack. As stated earlier, spell ranged attack are at a disadvantage if cast within 5 feet of an opponent. A spell Melee attacks require the caster to be in Melee range.
5e is careful about spelling this out in the spell's description.
OK: so a spell melee attack is not cast at disadvantage at melee range?
If so, yes that makes sense.
OK thanks for the clarifications.
It makes sense spell melee attacks are not cast at Disadvantage at Melee range.
"Make a concentration check?" Rather than "lose the spell and your turn?"
Crom's hairy nutsack, and people wonder why casters dominate.
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;786154If you're using Feats, one of them ("Mage Slayer") gives you the following:
1) You can make an opportunity attack against anyone within 5' who casts a spell (it doesn't disrupt the spell, but it will obviously be a discouragement to casting in melee).
2) When you hit someone who's concentrating on a spell they get Disadvantage on their saving throw to avoid disruption.
3) You have Advantage to saves against spells cast by anyone within 5' of you.
Thanks, yeah I took a good look at the feats last night and noticed that one.
The 5th Ed seem individually more powerful than feats in 3.5/PF .
Which is ok, as there's less of them available to take and less allocated to characters anyway.
Quote from: Old Geezer;786248"Make a concentration check?" Rather than "lose the spell and your turn?"
Crom's hairy nutsack, and people wonder why casters dominate.
I think you've misunderstood how concentration works in 5e. This is actually much more harsh for the spell caster than in previous editions.
In earlier editions, generally once a spell was cast it was cast - and barring a Dispel Magic or the like you just have to wait out its duration. Similarly, a caster can cast multiple spells and have them running at the same time.
The 5e concentration thing is a limit on that. Many more spells now need concentration than in previous editions, and that has two main effects - both of which are bad for the caster:
1) The caster can only have one of these spells going at once, rather than casting multiple spells and having them all active together.
2) Stopping most spells is simply a matter of hitting the caster to disrupt their concentration. You don't need to just wait for the durations to run out.
So both of these are actually penalties to the caster, not things that make it easier for them.
Are these penalties enough to offset the fact that spells can't be disrupted while they're being cast? Your mileage may vary on that. But this edition has been thought through, and has
much less caster dominance than most other editions - and I'm talking about the TSR editions too, not just the more recent WotC ones.
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;786273Are these penalties enough to offset the fact that spells can't be disrupted while they're being cast? Your mileage may vary on that. But this edition has been thought through, and has much less caster dominance than most other editions - and I'm talking about the TSR editions too, not just the more recent WotC ones.
I'm not going to make that call until I have had more 5E play experience, and at higher levels. From what I can tell so far its looking pretty good and because there are already bitches whining online about the relatively few spell slots at higher levels I already have a high degree of confidence that it will be better than 3.X.
The unanswered question is,
how much better? ;)
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;786273has much less caster dominance than most other editions -
oh Christ here we go, wait for it...
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;786273and I'm talking about the TSR editions too, not just the more recent WotC ones.
5e isn't even fully released yet and already we hear how the game that gives us unlimited and unstoppable Pew Pew, among other things is less caster dominant than TSR editions.
How about wait for the game to be released fully so there's actually a chance you're not just lying?
Quote from: CRKrueger;786281oh Christ here we go, wait for it...
5e isn't even fully released yet and already we hear how the game that gives us unlimited and unstoppable Pew Pew, among other things is less caster dominant than TSR editions.
How about wait for the game to be released fully so there's actually a chance you're not just lying?
Most or all of the combat cantrips require some form of to hit roll or save to actually connect so Id say they are far from unstoppable.
Unlimited? Pretty much Yes. But so is swinging a sword.
As for the rules not being out. The Basic DMG is allready online.
The real question is what will the optionals in the published DMG change and how radically.
So far to me it seems that yes, the 5e casters have been toned down. Mostly in the late stage game. They feel a little toned UP in the early stage game.
The disadvantage effect for casting in melee seems viable.
I'll see for myself how this goes in a few days hopefully.
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;786273In earlier editions, generally once a spell was cast it was cast - and barring a Dispel Magic or the like you just have to wait out its duration. Similarly, a caster can cast multiple spells and have them running at the same time.
The 5e concentration thing is a limit on that. Many more spells now need concentration than in previous editions, and that has two main effects - both of which are bad for the caster:
1) The caster can only have one of these spells going at once, rather than casting multiple spells and having them all active together.
2) Stopping most spells is simply a matter of hitting the caster to disrupt their concentration. You don't need to just wait for the durations to run out.
So both of these are actually penalties to the caster, not things that make it easier for them.
So do you mean that a magic user can't have "Fly" and "ESP" and "Clairaudience" and "Protection from Normal Missiles" all going at the same time? Interesting.
Quote from: Old Geezer;786291So do you mean that a magic user can't have "Fly" and "ESP" and "Clairaudience" and "Protection from Normal Missiles" all going at the same time? Interesting.
If Im reading the concentration rules right. Exactly. You cant stack concentration requiring spells in 5e.
Most spells have a casting time of 1 action. A few have 1 minute and a couple have casting times of 10 min. Fireball for example is 1 action.
Barkskin requires concentration to maintain for example.
Quote from: Old Geezer;786291So do you mean that a magic user can't have "Fly" and "ESP" and "Clairaudience" and "Protection from Normal Missiles" all going at the same time? Interesting.
Precisely so.
As far as caster vs non-caster balance has worked out so far from level 1 to 3.
The non-casters are dealing out a lot more damage.
I appreciate the casters get decent, unlimited cantrips that do decent damage, but they don't get to add an ability bonus to that damage.
The non-casters who often use missile or melee weapons get to add an ability bonus to damage, which at low level makes a hell of a lot of difference.
That and the various non-caster special abilities that often add to damage and to hit as well.
Quote from: Old Geezer;786248"Make a concentration check?" Rather than "lose the spell and your turn?"
Crom's hairy nutsack, and people wonder why casters dominate.
They dominate nothing in 5e you ignorant old fuck. At least read the rules and understand how few spell slots are available among other things you hairy nutsack of Crom . When you do then comment ok?
Quote from: Old Geezer;786291So do you mean that a magic user can't have "Fly" and "ESP" and "Clairaudience" and "Protection from Normal Missiles" all going at the same time? Interesting.
There IS NO STACKING for ANYBODY. And no two spells per round except cantrips in specific cases. It's why Sorcerer's metamagic ability to twin a spell is nasty with the right spell. Concentration gets harder as you level up and YES that is on purpose because the intent by the developers is you bet level 6 and above spells are field tilters but is it worth the risk? Maybe or maybe not but the player has to decide on the fly or work in concert with her fighters which if you notice can give his wizard all the information she needs to tilt the field if he scouts the opponent out for a minute BEFORE attacking. It's a class ability for the basic fighter that TBP calls boring.
Spells like Magic Weapon and Stoneskin are better used on frontline types while the wizard concentrates out of range UNLESS you're an Eldritch Knight which is a fighter subclass that uses a highly limited amount of spells to augment their fighting ability/options. Though a much better option for an EK is to use the 2nd level varient of Blade Barrier that deflects physical weapon attacks and start the carnage while working in concert with her full spell casters that are out of harm's way if they have a brain in their head.
Quote from: Old Geezer;786248"Make a concentration check?" Rather than "lose the spell and your turn?"
Crom's hairy nutsack, and people wonder why casters dominate.
Hey, at least 5E doesn't have infinite scroll making and trivial wand making.
It does have infinite cantrips, though which is a bit of a disappointment for me. Magic just seems less special when you can do it an infinite number of times without effort.
Quote from: Doom;786339Hey, at least 5E doesn't have infinite scroll making and trivial wand making.
It does have infinite cantrips, though which is a bit of a disappointment for me. Magic just seems less special when you can do it an infinite number of times without effort.
From actually playing the game you'd be surprised how little pure attack cantrips are used except in very specific instances/scenerios.
Hey Marley. Can I ask you a favor?
Would you stop being a bitch to Geezer any time he has a question? Thanks.
Quote from: Old Geezer;786291So do you mean that a magic user can't have "Fly" and "ESP" and "Clairaudience" and "Protection from Normal Missiles" all going at the same time? Interesting.
Depends upon the spell. For the most part yes, barring 2 or more spells requiring concentration. Concentration is nulled outright by another spell needing concentration, or incapacitated/killed; concentration takes a save from each & every source of damage. Common spells like "Fly," "Bless," & "Invisibility" require concentration, which tones them down. But different spells with durations (not concentrations) do stack.
Combining Magical Effects"The effects of different spells add together while the duration of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect — such as the highest bonus — from those casting applies while their durations overlap."
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 81. col. 2)
Quote from: Opaopajr;786350Depends upon the spell. For the most part yes, barring 2 or more spells requiring concentration. Concentration is nulled outright by another spell needing concentration, or incapacitated/killed; concentration takes a save from each & every source of damage. Common spells like "Fly," "Bless," & "Invisibility" require concentration, which tones them down. But different spells with durations (not concentrations) do stack.
Combining Magical Effects
"The effects of different spells add together while the duration of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect — such as the highest bonus — from those casting applies while their durations overlap."
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 81. col. 2)
implying hittign a flying guy might end up being really effective.... if its breaks concentration and they drop like a stone.
Like others said, not every spell has the concentration component, but most of the more powerful buffing spells do.
Concentration saves are generally made against a DC equal to the damage taken by a particular attack. In 5E, damage scales up a lot faster than any bonuses you can get for concentration checks, so the higher the level of combat, the more it becomes a factor.
Note that multiple casters CAN combine to buff a single target, so long as no caster concentrates on more than one spell, so technically, the spells CAN stack, but it has to be a group effort.
Quote from: jibbajibba;786365implying hittign a flying guy might end up being really effective.... if its breaks concentration and they drop like a stone.
Not exactly unless the spell is being used on yourself hence the risk v reward especially given the fact that it's generally safer and more optimal to use buffing spells on others rather then yourself except in specific cases.
Quote from: Marleycat;786341From actually playing the game you'd be surprised how little pure attack cantrips are used except in very specific instances/scenerios.
From actual play, the warlock has been casting a cantrip every round.
Quote from: Doom;786403From actual play, the warlock has been casting a cantrip every round.
That's their schtick right from 3.5. They're what's known as the "simple" magic using class in some circles. Though even then they're capable of so much more in the hands of the right player.
Quote from: Marleycat;786331They dominate nothing in 5e you ignorant old fuck. At least read the rules and understand how few spell slots are available among other things you hairy nutsack of Crom . When you do then comment ok?
Tongue my pee hole.
Quote from: Doom;786403From actual play, the warlock has been casting a cantrip every round.
To be fair, Warlocks are very much the Cantrip based class. Most of their non at will magic options are pretty limited.
From actual play, the Cleric casts the Guidance cantrip on every ability/skill check possible. +1d4 is pretty good!
Don't get me wrong, the game is the game...but I just find the infinite cantrips a little grating. One can certainly apologize by saying it's only for clerics and warlocks, of course.
Quote from: Doom;786436From actual play, the Cleric casts the Guidance cantrip on every ability/skill check possible. +1d4 is pretty good!
Yeah, I am not actually sure Guidance works the way they thought it would. You are clearly supposed to want to cast in advance and then maintain it with Concentration until it is needed, rather than just recasting it before every skill check.
I definitely have my eye on it and if it starts getting spammed like that in my game I will probably increase the casting time substantially.
Quote from: Doom;786436From actual play, the Cleric casts the Guidance cantrip on every ability/skill check possible. +1d4 is pretty good!
Don't get me wrong, the game is the game...but I just find the infinite cantrips a little grating. One can certainly apologize by saying it's only for clerics and warlocks, of course.
Meh, here is how it reads...
QuoteGuidance
Divination cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You touch one willing creature. Once before the spell
ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled
to one ability check of its choice. It can roll the die before
or after making the ability check. The spell then ends.
You touch somebody likely before making the check you stand by concentrating up to a minute or whenever the recipient decides to use the bonus within that minute and done. If circumstances allow you could try again of course. Don't see much spam potential in that honestly. I mean it's nice to get a +2ish (avg roll on a d4 is 2.5) on a skill roll is pretty neat but it sure isn't game breaking. What it does do is make a Bard or Rogue more effective at their job when the pressure is on making it unlikely that the cleric is just going to keep casting a spell that requires concentration yet really doesn't give a signifigant bonus compared to other options or the actual situation happening around the party.
No, it works like how Doom describes. Clerics essentially get a "1st lvl Proficiency Bonus" for every skill check they attempt, and may loan it out. Sure it is a one-shot bonus lasting up to a minute, but you can easily cast it again soon after the last one went off. Barring bonus or extra actions, you can easily cast it on yourself every other round, and easily upon others every round (though you should wait and Help for even MOAR!, see below).
The only limit is the setting context, and how many relevant ability checks make themselves available.
Even 'worse' (relative) they can cast it on someone else a round before, then Help later to give them Adv. As long as the task can reasonably receive help (i.e. not merely threading a needle), or the check is not totally dependent on being proficient (i.e. Herbalists' Kit proficiency needed to create antitoxin or potion of healing), you can Help. +2 w/ Adv on each applicable check can be a thing, I hear.
:)
Quote from: CRKrueger;786281oh Christ here we go, wait for it...
5e isn't even fully released yet and already we hear how the game that gives us unlimited and unstoppable Pew Pew, among other things is less caster dominant than TSR editions.
How about wait for the game to be released fully so there's actually a chance you're not just lying?
My PHB arrived weeks ago. Might check the address on your order...
Quote from: Opaopajr;786493No, it works like how Doom describes. Clerics essentially get a "1st lvl Proficiency Bonus" for every skill check they attempt, and may loan it out. Sure it is a one-shot bonus lasting up to a minute, but you can easily cast it again soon after the last one went off. Barring bonus or extra actions, you can easily cast it on yourself every other round, and easily upon others every round (though you should wait and Help for even MOAR!, see below).
The only limit is the setting context, and how many relevant ability checks make themselves available.
Even 'worse' (relative) they can cast it on someone else a round before, then Help later to give them Adv. As long as the task can reasonably receive help (i.e. not merely threading a needle), or the check is not totally dependent on being proficient (i.e. Herbalists' Kit proficiency needed to create antitoxin or potion of healing), you can Help. +2 w/ Adv on each applicable check can be a thing, I hear.
:)
It's not game breaking, but it is frickin' annoying (an extra die roll on most out-of-combat die rolls). I totally grant it's not "cure wounds", so it can't fit as a first level spell, but it's a pretty awesomely spamtastic cantrip. Maybe as a once-a-day after-the-roll Cleric pseudo-domain power, it would work...but it's too much for every roll (heck, PF's version, that only gives a +1, is irksome).
If clerics weren't nigh mandatory for their healing (and they're not *that* mandatory in 5e, at least so far), they'd be mandatory for this cantrip.
I've already had my goofy spasm of rant about spamtastic Cantrips. Guidance is up there, but Prestidigitation/Thaumaturgy (and now Druidcraft!) absolutely take the cake for me. I forbid myself from taking a race/class combo that grants me access to those spells, the temptation is too great.
... and I am absolutely dying to play some sort of Gene Wilder & Sammy Davis, Jr. mashup of a Candyman (Prestidigitation Charlatan). Selling jawbreakers and pixie sticks and chocolate to all those around, for a song — and a dance if you wait! (pebbles, sawdust, & poo are cheap supplies)
... and then I want to play Jet Set Radio, roller blading around Waterdeep tagging things with Prestidigitation, faking my own grind sparks as I trick from one railing to another, skating past the guards.
It is simply too much power for me. :(
Quote from: mcbobbo;786531My PHB arrived weeks ago. Might check the address on your order...
Pretty sure he means at least the standard core: PHB, MM, DMG. Pretty darn sure. ;)
Quote from: Opaopajr;786493No, it works like how Doom describes. Clerics essentially get a "1st lvl Proficiency Bonus" for every skill check they attempt, and may loan it out. Sure it is a one-shot bonus lasting up to a minute, but you can easily cast it again soon after the last one went off. Barring bonus or extra actions, you can easily cast it on yourself every other round, and easily upon others every round (though you should wait and Help for even MOAR!, see below).
The only limit is the setting context, and how many relevant ability checks make themselves available.
Even 'worse' (relative) they can cast it on someone else a round before, then Help later to give them Adv. As long as the task can reasonably receive help (i.e. not merely threading a needle), or the check is not totally dependent on being proficient (i.e. Herbalists' Kit proficiency needed to create antitoxin or potion of healing), you can Help. +2 w/ Adv on each applicable check can be a thing, I hear.
:)
Concentration is huge though. The cleric just standing there after giving the rogue "guidance" gets hit then spell gone. As I said it really depends on the environment and circumstances. In a perfect situation? Great, spam away. In a time sensitive or otherwise situation? Not relevant usually.
There is also the 1 minute limitation. Guidance is useless for long-term actions like performance or information gathering.
In adventure situations (i.e. dungeon crawls), due to the concentration it has to compete with all other long term buff spells like Blessing or Mage Armor that give more mileage in actually critical situations.
I expect as soon as long term buffs come online Guidance will remain nice for the right skill use in the right situation, but nothing worth to sacrifice already running major buffs for.
Quote from: Opaopajr;786579Pretty sure he means at least the standard core: PHB, MM, DMG. Pretty darn sure. ;)
Yeah, except none of the three are core.
Quote from: RPGPundit;787755Yeah, except none of the three are core.
In which case No. The full Basic rules arent out yet. Theres enough to play, but parts are missing yet.
Soon enough though that will change (late October/early November) aaagh! the waiting!
Quote from: Omega;787765In which case No. The full Basic rules arent out yet. Theres enough to play, but parts are missing yet.
Soon enough though that will change (late October/early November) aaagh! the waiting!
There definitely are "parts missing" in Basic, as I have found in my PbP here. i.e. You can jog, even Dash, but good luck sprinting RAW.
Quote from: Opaopajr;787774There definitely are "parts missing" in Basic, as I have found in my PbP here. i.e. You can jog, even Dash, but good luck sprinting RAW.
Giving that Jumping more than your move is a Strength (Athletics) check [p. 177], I am assuming that Running more than your move would be the same.
Quote from: Skyrock;786633There is also the 1 minute limitation. Guidance is useless for long-term actions like performance or information gathering.
In adventure situations (i.e. dungeon crawls), due to the concentration it has to compete with all other long term buff spells like Blessing or Mage Armor that give more mileage in actually critical situations.
I expect as soon as long term buffs come online Guidance will remain nice for the right skill use in the right situation, but nothing worth to sacrifice already running major buffs for.
Mage Armor is about the only buff that doesn't require concentration.
Quote from: jadrax;787779Giving that Jumping more than your move is a Strength (Athletics) check [p. 177], I am assuming that Running more than your move would be the same.
Yes, I use STR checks to get up to speed, and CON checks to sustain, just like 2e.