I have found what's personally the best and healthiest way of standing in the current RPG scene. And if you want to protest, it's also the most powerful weapon:

Indifference.

Have fun with what YOU like. Ignore all the rest. Don't even care to criticize it.

Quote from: One Horse Town;305307What exactly has happened to the mantra of house-ruling?

Mould the game to your group's preferences.

The rules are not my master...

Apparently it got killed and it's stuff taken.

Regards,
David R

There's a breed of gamers out there who are special snowflakes and can't be bothered with challenge.  I even met a guy who didn't want to try my 1e/2e game because he "had to think at work all day and didn't want to think while playing a game".  

My last seemingly normal college-age group turned into whiny, pouting babies within a couple sessions because things didn't work like 3e/4e.  Of course none of them bothered to read the rules and understand the system.  They thought losing a Con point for death was totally unfair even when told there were ways built into the campaign for them to get them back later.  They thought a Wish should give them what they wanted no matter how it was worded and without any unforeseen drawbacks.  They thought I was being a total asshole when an enemy monster used a clever tactic against them.  After the last session they left acting friendly but were such cowardly babies they wouldn't even reply to an email to tell me they were quitting.

I call them the "Challenge challenged" players and they seem to be growing exponentially around here.  I really don't understand how they have their egos so tied up in a GAME that it is a personal insult if they die due to carelessness/bad luck.

In the old days I had a lich attack a group with hasted rust monsters and the players got a good laugh out of how fast their armor and weapons were (permanently) destroyed.  These days I'd probably get my tires slashed.

Quote from: Windjammer;305278Ah, I've been waiting for these "We have come here to bury Caesar not to praise him" posters to show up.

Bring 'em!

-CS

Quote from: Spazmodeus;305310There's a breed of gamers out there who are special snowflakes and can't be bothered with challenge.  I even met a guy who didn't want to try my 1e/2e game because he "had to think at work all day and didn't want to think while playing a game".  

My last seemingly normal college-age group turned into whiny, pouting babies within a couple sessions because things didn't work like 3e/4e.  Of course none of them bothered to read the rules and understand the system.  They thought losing a Con point for death was totally unfair even when told there were ways built into the campaign for them to get them back later.  They thought a Wish should give them what they wanted no matter how it was worded and without any unforeseen drawbacks.  They thought I was being a total asshole when an enemy monster used a clever tactic against them.  After the last session they left acting friendly but were such cowardly babies they wouldn't even reply to an email to tell me they were quitting.

I call them the "Challenge challenged" players and they seem to be growing exponentially around here.  I really don't understand how they have their egos so tied up in a GAME that it is a personal insult if they die due to carelessness/bad luck.

In the old days I had a lich attack a group with hasted rust monsters and the players got a good laugh out of how fast their armor and weapons were (permanently) destroyed.  These days I'd probably get my tires slashed.

You know what? When I DMed a special RPGA event last year, one player emailed me later on, complaining that one of the fights had nearly done in one or two of the PCs. Nearly, mind you, not actually. There were no casualties and the players still felt treated unfairly. Still complained. That's the attitude.

And what makes it all worse is that the RPGA modules aren't even hard to master unless you are seriously, seriously incapable:

Quote from: SpinachcatWhat I find troublesome about LFR and RPGA is that their adventures are completely pussyshit. I mean, seriously WTF pussyshit on a Tinkerbell gondola. Fortunately, the DM in LFR is officially sanctioned by WotC to alter the module to enhance the fun for everyone (yeah, this is a new rule), but all the LFR mods I have played have been seriously Tinkerbell.

And now picture the players these modules are designed to accomodate being confronted by a pre-4E rust monster.

Quote from: David R;305309Apparently it got killed and it's stuff taken.

Regards,
David R

Ooh, what treasue code?

Quote from: One Horse Town;305315Ooh, what treasue code?

You're the player you tell me....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Spazmodeus;305310There's a breed of gamers out there who are special snowflakes and can't be bothered with challenge.  I even met a guy who didn't want to try my 1e/2e game because he "had to think at work all day and didn't want to think while playing a game".  

My last seemingly normal college-age group turned into whiny, pouting babies within a couple sessions because things didn't work like 3e/4e.  Of course none of them bothered to read the rules and understand the system.  They thought losing a Con point for death was totally unfair even when told there were ways built into the campaign for them to get them back later.  They thought a Wish should give them what they wanted no matter how it was worded and without any unforeseen drawbacks.  They thought I was being a total asshole when an enemy monster used a clever tactic against them.  After the last session they left acting friendly but were such cowardly babies they wouldn't even reply to an email to tell me they were quitting.

I call them the "Challenge challenged" players and they seem to be growing exponentially around here.  I really don't understand how they have their egos so tied up in a GAME that it is a personal insult if they die due to carelessness/bad luck.

In the old days I had a lich attack a group with hasted rust monsters and the players got a good laugh out of how fast their armor and weapons were (permanently) destroyed.  These days I'd probably get my tires slashed.

Perhaps you just are a crappy gamemaster (and honestly, even in your side of the story I see some signs for that) and these days people don't put up with it anymore.
If I had a whole group running away from me I would surely consider searching for the error in my own backyard.

Quote from: David R;305316You're the player you tell me....

Regards,
David R

A!

No, no! L! L!

This sounds like the kind of lame shit my former DM did all the fucking time.

Basically, nothing in his games was a challenge in anyway, because he was such a goddamn pussy about everything because he knew the fucking ADD drunks that consitituted most of his players would get bored and go puke in a gutter, so he basically gave them the moon because it was "more fun that way".

he'd insist on starting the party at low levels because it supposedly was more challenging, but then he'd just throw them at stupidly powerful or overwhelming numbers of enemies, and then start backpedalling, fudging, last minute houseruling, etc., to ensure no actual negative effect should befall the party beyond a few lost HP.  He handed out ridiculously powerful crap like candy, let the players get away with doing some downright suicidal stunts, and all so they'd keep paying marginal attention to the little railroad he'd set up for us.  You couldn't die in the game, not even if you tried, and I did on more than one occasion.  the only time we ever died was for a pre-scripted event, where we were all magically resurrected at the end anyway in the secret cave he wanted us to go in.  

When he first showed up with a copy of that damn 4e Shadowfell adventure thing, I and the rest of the group all refused to play it.  My main concern, besides hating the fucking system, was that I didn't trust those ADD drunks to be able to comprehend new rules, but honestly, I think the game is fucking perfect for them.  The only part where it would fall down maybe is the DM's constant on-th-spot house ruling and outright ignorance of the rules.

Quote from: Saphim;305321Perhaps you just are a crappy gamemaster (and honestly, even in your side of the story I see some signs for that) and these days people don't put up with it anymore.
If I had a whole group running away from me I would surely consider searching for the error in my own backyard.

Yeah I wondered about that at first, but I've had plenty of groups that seemed to enjoy my games.  The adventure that ticked off the recent group is one that I'd run 3 times in the past and gotten a great reaction every time.  Something was different this time but it wasn't me or the adventure.

Of course I'm curious what these signs are that you refer to?

RPGA adventures are built like roller coasters.   There's some excitement, the rails are usually quite obvious and you know that everything will be fine at the end.   Characters rarely die, but it does happen occassionally.   Maybe this isn't for you or me, but RPGA is massively popular.

And with 4e, its grown larger and larger - especially since they opened the entire campaign to home play.

At California conventions, RPGA consists of at least 50% of all RPG gameplay.   And as a convention promoter, I assure you that they are one of the most loyal and important demographics of attendees.    Unlike whiny forum bitches, RPGA members buy new game stuff.   Thus, vendors are happy and game stores carry RPGs.

And Paizo is betting on the same gig for their Pathfinder Society.

So before you keep bitching, thank RPGA for the existence of ANY game store with shelves of any RPGs.   Without the horde of RPGA members who buy D&D books like clockwork, this hobby would have died a decade ago.

Quote from: Spazmodeus;305328Yeah I wondered about that at first, but I've had plenty of groups that seemed to enjoy my games.  The adventure that ticked off the recent group is one that I'd run 3 times in the past and gotten a great reaction every time.  Something was different this time but it wasn't me or the adventure.

Of course I'm curious what these signs are that you refer to?

First of all: I am not trying to be rude, just frank.
You spoke about the wish and how they whined, that it didn't give them what they wanted, because they didn't formulate their wish carefully. Well, turn that around and you get "my gamemaster is splitting hairs over how I formulate my wish instead of just bringing the cool".
"guys, you can get the constitution point back later in the campaign, I planned opportunities for that" might be seen as "follow my railroad and good things will happen to you".
"Hehehe, didn't I use a clever tactic" might look differently when you just fought a monster for two hours and your gamemaster kept remarking how obvoius and easy it is to beat.

Like I said, I wasn't sitting at your table and it doesn't have to mean that you are a bad gamemaster, but I heard remarks like yours a lot from really bad gamemasters describing their games. Their players usually describe those games differently and often players walk away telling a gamemaster that "it was great".

Quote from: Windjammer;305255"Residuum", in 4E, is magical dust which performs the in-game duty of currency when creating magical items (PHB, p. 300). The creation of magic items, in turn, I should add, is now a "ritual" i.e. any PC can perform the creation of a magic item, no matter how powerful, as long as he dishes out measly 175 gp for the exercise and the desired magic item's cost quantified in "residuum". The ritual, I should add, consumes 1 hour of in-game time and so cannot be performed - for instance - right after slaying a rust monster in case the module is timed in such a way that two or three more combat encounters are already in cue.

Deliberate mischaracterization, exactly as I would expect from this type of post.

The description (which you provide the page number for, so you must have read it) says that it creates an item of the caster's level or lower.  So, if a warrior of 6th level (the level for which a Rust Monster is an appropriate encounter) lost his Battleforged + 2 armor to the monster, then it would require the location of a higher level caster because Battleforged + 2 armor is a level 10 item.

Quote from: Spinachcat;305329So before you keep bitching, thank RPGA for the existence of ANY game store with shelves of any RPGs.   Without the horde of RPGA members who buy D&D books like clockwork, this hobby would have died a decade ago.

Wait, are RPGA players 50% of the convention population, or 50% of the gaming population?  Because the only way for this level of complete fucking stupid to make any sense is if you were saying that RPGA players constitute 50% of the general population of gamers.

Of course, you are also conflating 'D&D' with 'all RPGs', in order for 'this hobby' to have died ten years ago with out RPGA folks.  As I recall, even ten years ago, they only played D&D at RPGA events.  Additionally, when compared to the millions that play D&D, and the likely twice as many as that number that play all RPGs, the few thousand that are involved in the RPGA is nothing even resembling a 'horde'.

Do they kidnap a family member when you sign on as an RPGA DM?  Is there something in the water that turns you all into unthinking shills?  I mean, 'D&D sales would have been seriously impacted by loss of RPGA sales' is one thing, but 'the hobby would have died ten years ago'?  That is just about the dumbest thing I have heard this week, and it has been a busy week at the office.