Quote from: Gabriel2;305337Deliberate mischaracterization, exactly as I would expect from this type of post.

The description (which you provide the page number for, so you must have read it) says that it creates an item of the caster's level or lower.  So, if a warrior of 6th level (the level for which a Rust Monster is an appropriate encounter) lost his Battleforged + 2 armor to the monster, then it would require the location of a higher level caster because Battleforged + 2 armor is a level 10 item.

I thought players were only supposed to have one item at one level higher.  Are you saying that a 6th level player could be expected to have a Flaming +6 weapon on them that would be in real danger from the rust monster because they would need to find a 30th level caster for the ritual?

Oh, no, I know what happened.  You totally missed the part where re-creating your weapons later makes the rust monster wholly superfluous.  It might as well be a 'temporary extradimensional magic weapon storage monster'.

Allow me to quote this part again:

QuoteEventually, though, the PCs should have an opportunity to regain their lost equipment by using the residuum found in the monster. Although a PC might lose an item, it is intended that the loss be only temporary, which is why the residuum recovered from a rust monster is equal to the full value of the destroyed item.

In other words, even if you lose your +6 Flaming Longsword, it is fully intended to be returned in whole once you make your way back to town.

Quote from: StormBringer;305340I thought players were only supposed to have one item at one level higher.  Are you saying that a 6th level player could be expected to have a Flaming +6 weapon on them that would be in real danger from the rust monster because they would need to find a 30th level caster for the ritual?

A Flaming +6 longsword is a 30th level weapon, as is not a reasonable treasure for a 6th level fighter.  However, a 10th level weapon is a reasonable level weapon for a 6th level fighter and is found as parcel #1 of treasure appropriate for 6th level characters.  In any event, either treasure would require the 6th level character go to great lengths to find a replacement by way of locating a caster of the ritual.

Are you trying to say a 6th level character should have 30th level treasure as a regular item?  Or are you trying to say a 30th level character should lose a potential level 22 item to a level 6 rust monster easily and permanently and irreplacably?

Quote from: Gabriel2;305344A Flaming +6 longsword is a 30th level weapon, as is not a reasonable treasure for a 6th level fighter.  However, a 10th level weapon is a reasonable level weapon for a 6th level fighter and is found as parcel #1 of treasure appropriate for 6th level characters.  In any event, either treasure would require the 6th level character go to great lengths to find a replacement by way of locating a caster of the ritual.

Are you trying to say a 6th level character should have 30th level treasure as a regular item?  Or are you trying to say a 30th level character should lose a potential level 22 item to a level 6 rust monster easily and permanently and irreplacably?

So one will say instead that the player might have to hire a 10th lvl npc (only great lengths if the GM makes it great lengths, in which case why allow it at all) to do the job, or one might also say the pc could hang on to the magic junk until reaching 10th level, and use all his other magic stuff that isn't over his lvl until then. Doesn't change the fact that it's a whole world different than the dread that used to accompany the appearance of the rust monster.

This is just another example of why 4e isn't appealing to me as much as I had hoped it would. If I wanted this kind of game experience there's a myriad of computer games I could be playing instead of TTRPGs. It's just not my bag.

Quote from: Sigmund;305350So one will say instead that the player might have to hire a 10th lvl npc (only great lengths if the GM makes it great lengths, in which case why allow it at all) to do the job, or one might also say the pc could hang on to the magic junk until reaching 10th level, and use all his other magic stuff that isn't over his lvl until then. Doesn't change the fact that it's a whole world different than the dread that used to accompany the appearance of the rust monster.

Ah yes, what is the purpose of a rust monster?

If it is encountered by a player group which cannot identify it, then it serves the purpose of a GM arbitrarily stripping away equipment.

If it is encountered by a player group which can identify it, then it serves the purpose of a roadblock, no different from a guard of a door in a console RPG which you must pay 1,000,000 gold to pass.

It forces players to "run back to town" because we all know how fun it is to run back to town instead of exploring the ruins.  We all know how much fun it is for everyone at the table to go on a side quest to replace the warrior's armor because he lost his +2 plate to a lucky hit by a rust monster.

But the biggest purpose of the rust monster is to passive-aggressively take away equipment the GM gave to the players which he has changed his mind about.  The lesson the rust monster teaches is the GM doesn't have any consequences for his play of the game, only the guys on the other side of the screen suffer consequences.

Looking even further, if you're saying hunting down a 10th level caster to fix a magic item isn't any drawback whatsoever, then we might as well say that death in AD&D has never been a consequence.  Raise Dead has always been castable by a 10th level cleric.  And if we're saying that any item denied the character for 4 levels of playtime is not denied at all, then a rust monster has NEVER denied a PC any equipment, because the PC can always find something better.

Gabriel2, you have banged this drum before. There is a theme of "the DM has too much power and it should be taken away" in your posts.

Or, you know, the players could not be a bunch of mindless thugs, and actually try and figure a way of dealing with the challenge presented in a clever fashion, instead of treating everything like it's fucking Diablo and automatically assuming all things are present for the players to smash in the face with an axe.

Quote from: Gabriel2;305344Are you trying to say a 6th level character should have 30th level treasure as a regular item?  Or are you trying to say a 30th level character should lose a potential level 22 item to a level 6 rust monster easily and permanently and irreplacably?

If they are careless, yes.  I assume 30th level characters have more tricks up their sleeves to take care of a 6th level monster than basic attacks with their weapons.  Besides, shouldn't a 6th level monster be something like a minion when 30th level characters face it?

If a 6th level character is expected to have 10th level items, why are there levels on the magic at all?  Just group them into the tiers and have it done with.  If a parcel has a tenth level item for a 6th level party, clearly the leveling of magic items was a waste of time.

Quote from: Gabriel2;305344A Flaming +6 longsword is a 30th level weapon, as is not a reasonable treasure for a 6th level fighter.  However, a 10th level weapon is a reasonable level weapon for a 6th level fighter and is found as parcel #1 of treasure appropriate for 6th level characters.  In any event, either treasure would require the 6th level character go to great lengths to find a replacement by way of locating a caster of the ritual.

Are you trying to say a 6th level character should have 30th level treasure as a regular item?  Or are you trying to say a 30th level character should lose a potential level 22 item to a level 6 rust monster easily and permanently and irreplacably?

See, all of this is just an example of what's horribly wrong with 4e. Rust monsters that don't actually destroy items, "Parceled" treasure, so that a 6th level character can "expect" a 10th-level item but should never have a 30th level item... FUCK. It has no resemblance to D&D; its not the same game even a tiny little bit.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Gabriel2;305359Ah yes, what is the purpose of a rust monster?

It is a challenge meant to present a different consequence than losing HPS

QuoteIf it is encountered by a player group which cannot identify it, then it serves the purpose of a GM arbitrarily stripping away equipment.

Rather than HPs or LVLs or healing potions or spells or arrows or molotov cocktails or livestock.

QuoteIf it is encountered by a player group which can identify it, then it serves the purpose of a roadblock, no different from a guard of a door in a console RPG which you must pay 1,000,000 gold to pass.

Much like any other monster, but with different consequences for facing it without "paying".

QuoteIt forces players to "run back to town" because we all know how fun it is to run back to town instead of exploring the ruins.  We all know how much fun it is for everyone at the table to go on a side quest to replace the warrior's armor because he lost his +2 plate to a lucky hit by a rust monster.

No, it doesn't "force" the players to do anything specific any more than any other monster does. What it might encourage players to do is attempt to think creatively in order to navigate the challenge. Plus, side quests can be as much or more fun than the "main" quest, at least in my experience.

QuoteBut the biggest purpose of the rust monster is to passive-aggressively take away equipment the GM gave to the players which he has changed his mind about.  The lesson the rust monster teaches is the GM doesn't have any consequences for his play of the game, only the guys on the other side of the screen suffer consequences.

Only if that's the type of DM you are. Also, I as a player recall no "consequences" really, other than entertainment. My characters have suffered plenty of consequences, but then so too have the DM's characters really. Honestly, there are any number of ways a DM could relieve PCs of gear, the rust monster used to be only one of them, and not even the best if that's the goal of the DM because it only works on metal things that it can come into contact with. The current version is not even that really, it's merely a temporary inconvenience unless the DM arranges the situation in such a way as to make it more than that, in which case the dang thing might as well be house-ruled back to it's original design.

QuoteLooking even further, if you're saying hunting down a 10th level caster to fix a magic item isn't any drawback whatsoever, then we might as well say that death in AD&D has never been a consequence.  Raise Dead has always been castable by a 10th level cleric.  And if we're saying that any item denied the character for 4 levels of playtime is not denied at all, then a rust monster has NEVER denied a PC any equipment, because the PC can always find something better.

I didn't say it isn't a drawback, I'm just saying that in that specific circumstance, it's as much or as little a drawback as the DM makes it, in that there is either a convenient 10th lvl npc to help out or there isn't. However, for any item the PC's lvl or lower it's hardly an inconvenience at all as long as someone knows the proper ritual. Plus, the worst part of the issue is the publicly stated design philosophy behind this choice, regardless of your personal experience (or mine).

Quote from: J Arcane;305362Or, you know, the players could not be a bunch of mindless thugs, and actually try and figure a way of dealing with the challenge presented in a clever fashion, instead of treating everything like it's fucking Diablo and automatically assuming all things are present for the players to smash in the face with an axe.

Very well said.

Quote from: StormBringer;305363If a 6th level character is expected to have 10th level items, why are there levels on the magic at all?  Just group them into the tiers and have it done with.  If a parcel has a tenth level item for a 6th level party, clearly the leveling of magic items was a waste of time.

Because it shows what level items are appropriate for the party.  It shows what level items can be created by someone with the Enchant an Item ritual.  It shows a comparison of how powerful certain items are.

A magic item with a level higher than the party is special and worthy of questing (and therefore worth trying to hunt down someone to repair when a rust monster slobbers on it).  A magic item with a level equal to or less than the party is increasingly trivial.   Magic items from 7th to 10th level are appropriate for a 6th level party to find because they could make lower level items themselves and 11th level and higher items may be outside of the scope of their adventures.

You could still give that 6th level character the level 30 flaming sword, but the level structure has told you that it's much too hard for the character to consider making himself, and it's outside the general range of appropirate treasure.  That's far from a waste of time.

Raise Dead is a 5th level spell in AD&D, requiring a 9th level cleric to cast.  Just because it can be found on scrolls useable by 3rd level characters doesn't mean that rating it for it's power was worthless.

Quote from: Spinachcat;305329So before you keep bitching, thank RPGA for the existence of ANY game store with shelves of any RPGs.   Without the horde of RPGA members who buy D&D books like clockwork, this hobby would have died a decade ago.

If the RPGA is that fucking active and powerful, how come the only person I have met in 21 years of gaming over multiple states and countries of play who ever joined up at all.. was me?  I haven''t even seen that many previous or active members online.  Maybe 3-10 who have ever claimed membership, or seemed to think the organization mattered enough to actually bring it up?

Much like the Convention Scene, people put entirely too much importance in a fucking niche.  

Which leads us to assy games like 4e.

Quote from: Gabriel2;305372Because it shows what level items are appropriate for the party.  It shows what level items can be created by someone with the Enchant an Item ritual.  It shows a comparison of how powerful certain items are.

A magic item with a level higher than the party is special and worthy of questing (and therefore worth trying to hunt down someone to repair when a rust monster slobbers on it).  A magic item with a level equal to or less than the party is increasingly trivial.   Magic items from 7th to 10th level are appropriate for a 6th level party to find because they could make lower level items themselves and 11th level and higher items may be outside of the scope of their adventures.

You could still give that 6th level character the level 30 flaming sword, but the level structure has told you that it's much too hard for the character to consider making himself, and it's outside the general range of appropirate treasure.  That's far from a waste of time.

Raise Dead is a 5th level spell in AD&D, requiring a 9th level cleric to cast.  Just because it can be found on scrolls useable by 3rd level characters doesn't mean that rating it for it's power was worthless.

I do have to agree with you here. I look at the lvls for items the same way, and think that's a pretty good idea actually, especially when items can be created by PCs.

Quote from: Demonseed;305301Unfortunately, it runs counter to everything I believe about RPGs.  Choices are supposed to have consequences.  If you decide to steal from a dragon hoard, you shouldn't be surprised when you end up squaring off against a dragon.  If you die, unless your party can raise you, you're dead.  Period.

Why the hell do we have to mollycoddle and dance around the subject of lasting penalties?  Isn't that what makes the games fun and suspenseful?  Hell, without the threat of actual penalties, the game will lose its luster extremely fast.  Guess it's time to activate house rules again.

I have to say that, in the context of both the post and this thread, I find the bolded quote amusing.

Quote from: Gabriel2;305372Raise Dead is a 5th level spell in AD&D, requiring a 9th level cleric to cast.  Just because it can be found on scrolls useable by 3rd level characters doesn't mean that rating it for it's power was worthless.

Excepting that spell levels are intrinsic to the mechanics of spell casting, and bolted on to magic items.